Mac OS 9 Lives! (Classic Mac OS Forum)

Welcome Board (Our Community, News, Mac OS Installation Help, Marketplace) => HELP BOARD ! Installing & Troubleshooting the Classic Mac OS => Topic started by: V.Yakob on May 28, 2022, 05:08:53 AM

Title: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: V.Yakob on May 28, 2022, 05:08:53 AM
Hi!

I have PowerMac G4 MDD (FW400, 2003), I can't boot into Mac OS 9.2.2.

Tried:
1. Mac OS 9 Live community image to use
2. Software Restoration images 691-4872-A, 691-4873-A and 691-4409-A.
3. Unpacked os9general.dmg
4. Installed CPU_MacOS9_Z.pkg_.zip
5. Reset NVRAM using ⌘+⌥+P+R
6. Reset NVRAM via OpenFirmware ⌘+⌥+F+O
reset-nvram
set-defaults
reset-all

I used Apple Service Diagnostic (691-4769) to check the hardware and AHT 2.0.2 -- no problems were found, the tests were passed successfully.

The result is always the same -- Mac OS 9 does not boot. Just a gray screen, it turns out to get out of this state only by holding the power button.

At the same time, Mac OS X 10.2, 10.3, 10.4 work fine. Classic mode starts without problems.

What am I missing for a native Mac OS 9 boot?
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 / grey screen only
Post by: FBz on May 28, 2022, 10:20:03 AM
You’ve tried holding down the option / alt key at boot to arrive at the boot picker which allows you to choose your boot disk? (And OS 9.2 shows up as a viable choice but still gives you the gray screen when selected?)

(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6335.0;attach=10116;image)

Have you tried two-partitioning your HD with one partition for your OS X installation and the other for OS 9.2? I rarely (if ever) allow an OS 9 installation on an un-partitioned HD and I never run OS 9.2 under Classic Mode.

(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6335.0;attach=10118;image)

Apple System Profiler showing a two-partitioned HD with OS 9.2 and OS 10.4.6 segregated on two different partitions - on the same (1) HD. *Usually  format and two-partition the HD first with OS 9.2 and then install whatever version of OS X on the second partition.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: V.Yakob on May 28, 2022, 10:51:15 AM
Yes, of course I tried that too.
The screen is always gray.
Today I installed a new SSD, divided it into several partitions. Installed 10.4.
Copied the "System Folder" and "Applications (Mac OS 9)" directories from the os9general.dmg package to this section, to no avail

I noticed a strange thing, right after copying, rebooting and holding Opt, I did not see the possibility of loading Mac OS 9, it appears only after rebooting with the choice of Mac OS 9. in
And for some reason, the name of the section is not displayed.
(http://pmg4bootmenu.png)

A similar problem may be related to the battery on the motherboard? I bought this computer 2 weeks ago. The seller told me that it had been in stock for about 10 years. Unfortunately, I don't have a multimeter at hand right now to measure the voltage.

Since then, I haven't stopped trying to run Mac OS 9.2.2.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: FBz on May 28, 2022, 11:00:55 AM
That is odd. Doubtful that the battery would cause that, but a new
battery couldn’t hurt.

What CPU is in the machine? And the machine is not a FW800?

I’d first try a fresh, clean and complete install via CD from:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,1657.0.html
-because it has Drive Setup 2.1 (which I prefer over DS 1.9.2).

And the above, before any OS X installation on any partition.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: V.Yakob on May 28, 2022, 11:12:12 AM
FW400, that's for sure.

I'll try this image, thanx.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: FBz on May 28, 2022, 11:25:46 AM
And of course… as with almost every Apple OS installer:

Nothing connected to the machine (inside or out) that is
not absolutely necessary for the basic function of the machine.
NO external hard drives, scanners, USB, SCSI devices etc. OR
internal cards other than the video / GPU.

ONLY the bare necessities connected during OS installs.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: V.Yakob on May 28, 2022, 11:47:33 AM
I don't have any connection boards.
Only Apple Keyboard (A1048) and Apple Mighty Mouse (A1152) are connected. I also tried connecting another old Apple Mouse (M5769) with one button. The situation is not changing.
I tried the image you suggested, it doesn't work, see the screenshot. I watched it for 5-7 minutes, then rebooted it. After reboot, just like with Mac OS 9 -- just a gray screen.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 / grey screen only
Post by: FBz on May 28, 2022, 12:02:32 PM
You downloaded and successfully burned a bootable CD from that download and then booted the machine with / from that CD (holding down the “c” key). Then you reformatted and partitioned your SSD or HD with Drive Setup 2.1 before then installing OS 9.2. from that CD?

AND you still got a gray screen upon reboot?

Well, I am completely and totally puzzled.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: V.Yakob on May 28, 2022, 12:13:26 PM
I couldn't boot from this disk.

I see this disk in the boot menu (hold opt), after selecting it, the icon appeared as in the photo in the message above. After restarting, the screen is gray.
Only OS X loads without problems.
I googled this problem for a week, and could not find similar cases.
What could the previous owners have done with this computer? Maybe the firmware was changed? I do not know how to check it.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 / grey screen only
Post by: V.Yakob on May 28, 2022, 12:23:02 PM
You downloaded and successfully burned a bootable CD
Maybe the image needs to be recorded in some special application?
I am using an embedded solution in macOS 12. Right click on the image -- burn. I use Intel-based Mac + USB SuperDrive and CD-RW disk.

Other images, such as Apple Software Diagnostics, Software Restoration and Mac OS X 10.3, 10.4 distrib are working fine.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: FBz on May 28, 2022, 12:46:37 PM
Well, your Boot ROM (4.4.8f2) is identical to an MDD that I recently swapped the CPU in, so that seems fine. But you can boot into Open Firmware to check with Command+Option+O+F.

Do you have another G4 Mac that you can test the OS 9.2 install CD in? There’s a good possibility that you have not gotten a properly burned installer disc.

Lately I have reverted to downloading on a newer iMac (intel-based, running High Sierra) and then moving that download to another G3 or G4 mac to actually burn the installer disc from the download.

If your problem persists and you’d like a bonafide, tested OS 9.2 installer disc, PM me your address and I can send you a disc for the cost of postage alone.

Ahh, and Mac OS 12 (Monterey)!
It’s likely that you have not burned a bootable OS 9.2 installer disc from there.

*You may need a specific version of Roxio Toast for use with Monterey in order to burn a bootable disc from that download.
Which specific version, I do not know. v.12? v.18? or v.20?
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: V.Yakob on May 28, 2022, 12:57:51 PM
Ahh, and Mac OS 12 (Monterey)!
It’s likely that you have not burned a bootable OS 9.2 installer disc from there.

macOS 12 doesn't burn such images?  :o
I can burn on PowerMac G4 by booting into Mac OS X 10.4, which I installed today. Also next week I can make a burn with Windows 11.
I don't have any other computers anymore. ::)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: FBz on May 28, 2022, 12:59:50 PM
As you were posting, I prepared this:

OR... maybe move the (un-touched) download to your MDD running OS 10 and try to then burn a disc from there?

So yes, give that a try.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: IIO on May 28, 2022, 04:31:58 PM
Copied the "System Folder" and "Applications (Mac OS 9)" directories from the os9general.dmg package to this section, to no avail

you said you were using the CD from the forums.

where does this OS9General image come from then?

you are supposed to use the "OS9 for unsupported G4" CD for the MDD fw-800.

(ignore if you do)



Title: Re: Mac OS 9 / grey screen only
Post by: IIO on May 28, 2022, 04:38:46 PM

Quote
Maybe the image needs to be recorded in some special application?

burning an image file should not change its content at all - unless you mount it and attempt to make an 1:1 copy - then i can not guarantee you what windows 11 board tools or deamon tools do.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: V.Yakob on May 29, 2022, 01:59:23 AM
where does this OS9General image come from then?

This image (https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/mac-os-922-powermac-g4-mdd).

you are supposed to use the "OS9 for unsupported G4" CD for the MDD fw-800.
I've used different images, including ones that shouldn't work. When I boot from an unsupported image, I expect to see error or some other informational messages. But there is nothing but a gray screen.

*You may need a specific version of Roxio Toast for use with Monterey in order to burn a bootable disc from that download.
Which specific version, I do not know. v.12? v.18? or v.20?

Used Roxio Toast 8 to burn the "Rescue & Install" image, unchanged, gray screen

I'm left with 2 ideas:
1. Check the battery voltage, and if < 3.6 V change it.
2. Use a different drive. I have an old PATA DVD-RW from an old PC.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: IIO on May 29, 2022, 04:20:39 AM

Quote
This image (https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/mac-os-922-powermac-g4-mdd).

if you dont use this, http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2143.0.html, you would have to get a MacOS9 driver onto your HDDs in another way, for example by formatting it in another machine.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: V.Yakob on May 29, 2022, 04:40:13 AM
I can't load this image. I've tried it a few times. The result is always the same, the machine freezes on a gray screen. At some point I started it and left it for 30-40 minutes, but there was no progress. There's probably some kind of malfunction in this computer that I can't identify.
Title: Re: Please Help
Post by: FBz on June 03, 2022, 09:55:43 AM
Okay… DAY SIX!

And 22 direct emails later and still no solution for Yakob’s Grey Screen - No OS 9.2 Boot problem. Has tried CDs burned from MacTron’s Rescue & Install AND the Universal installer and still no successful, bootable installation. The machine will not even boot from the Rescue & Install disc or the Universal. Have even tried drag & drop approach. And while I continue to suspect his install CD’s burned from downloads, it may be something else entirely. Please read back through this thread for more info.

His DVD/CD drive does allow a new, working Tiger SSD install.

Yakob is now using a correctly partitioned (via Tiger with OS 9 drivers installed) Crucial SSD in place of his original HDD and the problem persists. What appears to be an EVB-002-3 “Bribge” adapter has also been employed. First with jumper set to Master (alone on the ATA-100 ribbon cable) and now with jumper removed (Slave setting). Still, no joy.

Can this all be a consequence of not having the original install discs for the MDD and instead, using an install disc for Tiger, originally intended for another machine (or even a generic, downloaded version of Tiger)? Definitely an on-going, mystery puzzle. Even his fresh install of Tiger to the new SSD boots and works without fail.

“There are also machine-specific discs that are:
A) hard to identify properly and:
B) will NOT work if they're not exactly the correct one for your computer.
Spend the money - get a retail DVD - it will be good to have.” -GaryN
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2671.msg24015.html#msg24015

He also has no access to another nearby G3 or G4 machine to attempt an out-of-the-MDD installation, nor does he have a bootable external HD or Firewire drive.

All MDD hardware questions that I can think of, have been considered, addressed and dismissed. It is not a FW800 machine, but acts like one by not allowing an OS 9.2, independently bootable install. And Yakob has run “Apple Service Diagnostic (691-4769) to check the hardware and AHT 2.0.2 -- no problems were found”.

His current battery also maintains adequate voltage to keep Date & Time current, with no changes after being removed and then later re-installed. I even tested an MDD here without a battery installed and was still capable of installing & booting OS 9.2.2 from the Rescue & Install disc download file, without a battery installed.

I would send tried, tested and true install discs… but he happens to be in a country where currently, no mail... to-or-from is allowed (from / to the U.S. anyway). And I have requested (via PMs) possible more-direct assistance from two members here that may be his fellow countrymen. Maybe they can get discs to him or help in some other way?

So, anybody / everybody… step right up and give this on-going saga your best-est shots.
Whatcha got?

*Grey ribbon cable pictured below is not currently in use.

(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6335.0;attach=10164;image)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: DieHard on June 03, 2022, 01:28:30 PM
Hi!

I have PowerMac G4 MDD (FW400, 2003), I can't boot into Mac OS 9.2.2.

Tried:
1. Mac OS 9 Live community image to use
2. Software Restoration images 691-4872-A, 691-4873-A and 691-4409-A.

What am I missing for a native Mac OS 9 boot?


I am so curious why you have not tried the last set made for this unit, that is right here on the site ?

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,3266.0.html

From the download...
Quote
Power Mac MDD (Mirrored Drive Door) 2003 (Single 1.25 Ghz CPU) M9145LL/A Restore Set

This is the LAST Revision ever made for the MDD and is extremely Rare...

The Download Folder Contains the Following CD/DVDs:

SOFTWARE INSTALL & RESTORE 1 (DVD)
Color...........: Dark Grey
PN/Media.....: 691-4681-A (DVD)
Disk Title.....: Power Mac G4
Subtitle.......: Software Install and Restore 1
Mac OS.......: 10.3
AHT Diags...: 2.0.2
Year/Version: DVD version 1 / © 2003

SOFTWARE INSTALL & RESTORE 2 (CD)
Color...........: Dark Grey
PN/Media.....: 2Z691-4744-A (CD)
Disk Title.....: Power Mac G4
Subtitle.......: Software Install and Restore 2
Year/Version: CD version 1 / © 2003

SOFTWARE RESTORE 1 OF 4 (CD)
Color...........: Light Grey
PN/Media.....: 691-4078-A (CD)
Disk Title.....: Power Mac G4
Subtitle.......: Software Restore
Subtitle.......: 1 of 4
Software.....: Mac OS 9 & Mac OS X Applications
Mac OS.......: Mac OS version 9.2.2
Year/Version: CD version 1 / © 2002

SOFTWARE RESTORE 2 OF 4 (CD)
Color...........: Light Grey
PN/Media.....: 2Z691-4103-A (CD)
Disk Title.....: Power Mac G4
Subtitle.......: Software Restore
Subtitle.......: 2 of 4
Software.....: Mac OS 9 & Mac OS X Applications
Mac OS.......: Mac OS version 9.2.2
Year/Version: CD version 1 / © 2002

SOFTWARE RESTORE 3 OF 4 (CD)
Color...........: Light Grey
PN/Media.....: 2Z691-3548-A (CD)
Disk Title.....: Power Mac G4
Subtitle.......: Software Restore
Subtitle.......: 3 of 4
Software.....: Mac OS 9 & Mac OS X Applications
Mac OS.......: Mac OS version 9.2.2
Year/Version: CD version 1 / © 2002

SOFTWARE RESTORE 4 OF 4 (CD)
Color...........: Light Grey
PN/Media.....: 2Z691-3600-A (CD)
Disk Title.....: Power Mac G4
Subtitle.......: Software Restore
Subtitle.......: 4 of 4
Software.....: Mac OS 9 & Mac OS X Applications
Mac OS.......: Mac OS version 9.2.2
Year/Version: CD version 1 / © 2002
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: Jubadub on June 03, 2022, 01:43:41 PM
If DieHard's approach fails, one thing I do notice is that according to The House of Moth website, that MDD is using the one heatsink that apparently crashes Mac OS under a heavy load, as opposed to one of the two aluminum ones (very similar-looking), the copper one or a custom one.

That would probably have been an issue for all OSes, though.

I do have one suggestion if all else fails: kick out ANY OS X install, wipe all clean, get rid of all such data. Then try booting with an OS 9 CD. OS X being present has gotten in my way before, although not sure if quite like this.

Another idea is to burn images, ironically, on Windows using ImgBurn, instead of Toast or whatever else. There's an adware-free version of it in the Garden, as it is very useful for ripping and burning Mac discs, especially hybrid ones.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: FBz on June 03, 2022, 02:42:35 PM
Surprisingly, I have never tried The Last Revision for the MDD 2003 download disc restore set mentioned above by DieHard. AND due to questions as to whether or not V. Yakob’s download and disc burns have been adequate up to this point… that last disc set has been suggested - but not yet pursued.

A closer look concerning the Software Restoration images that Yakob has listed as tried so far: (691-4872-A, 691-4873-A and 691-4409-A) - suggests that the first two discs are: Power Mac G4 Software Install & Restore (2 DVD set) Mac OS v10.3.2 AHT v2.0.2 For Power Mac G4 MDD 2003 Disc v1.0 (DVD)… while the third disc, the 691-4409-A is a single DVD: Power Mac G4. Software Install & Restore. Mac OS v10.2.6. AHT v2.0.2. Disc v1.0 2003. Maybe these were also questionable download and burns?

But maybe DieHard’s (now suggested… and last... third set) might just be THE ticket?

Yet, one would think that either of the first two sets might have remedied the situation?

“Third set is charmed”? [I hope so.]

As for Jubadub’s idea… I did the very same back in 2017 - kicked out all OS X… wiped the drive(s) completely and had NO difficulty installing and booting OS 9.2.2 from MacTron’s Rescue and Install disc download. Installing Tiger afterwards however (from a downloaded image) then proved daunting. Even GaryN was considerate enough to send me a pre-burned Tiger installation disc. But not until our Fearless Leader (thankfully) sent me an OS pre-loaded HD, was I ever able to boot into Tiger. That was nearly 5 years ago and no problems since. But I now install Tiger from an Apple Retail disc.

Again, I have not / nor ever, tried the above LAST set mentioned by DieHard.
I should really DL & test it here.

Thanks for suggestions offered thus far!
Yakob does reportedly have access to a Windows machine too. ;)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: AtariMan on June 03, 2022, 03:16:08 PM
https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/power-mac-g4-software-install-restore

I took archives from here for my MDD 2003,
got 2 images, then I burned 2 DVD discs and installed the first time.
One partition will have Mac OS X 10.3.2 and OS 9.2.2.
Everything works like a Swiss watch.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: V.Yakob on June 04, 2022, 07:07:22 AM
During the week, we conducted a lot of tests with FBz.
I also tried to boot from «Rescue & Install» CD image. This image should boot, but I only get a gray screen.
I tried burning the disk on both this MDD in Tiger and Monterey (Intel), but the result was not changed. I also tried to use another CD/DVD-RW on MDD, but there were also no changes.

This Friday, FBz and I decided to start the computer without a battery installed in the motherboard. And surprisingly, I started «Rescue & Install» CD image.
I performed another reboot, started Tiger, rebooted and tried to boot from the image again, but got a gray screen.

I also tried to enter OpenFirmware: Sometimes, the execution of the nvstore command returns: NVRAMRC not valid.

I tried resetting by long press powerbutton or control+command+powerbuttton.

After experimenting with the battery, I'm sure these are not incorrectly selected or incorrectly burned CD. Most likely, need to look in OpenFirmware. On the topic «NVRAMRC not valid» found the next one post (https://mail-index.netbsd.org/port-macppc/2005/04/20/0000.html)

Title: Open Firmware Experts
Post by: FBz on June 07, 2022, 08:37:11 AM
Out of my depths… (i.e. the shallow end of the Open Firmware pool). ::)

(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6335.0;attach=10166;image)

Yakob’s MDD came with the HDD connected via a damaged ribbon attached to the front, ATA-33 socket. He has since replaced that damaged cable and moved the HDD back to the ATA-100 socket. No matter what he does (and he’s attempted nearly everything that we can think of) he is unable to successfully install or completely boot any version of OS 9.2 installed on a second partition, either on his original HDD or on a new SSD w/ adapter. It is a FW400 MDD. And Tiger (10.4) repeatedly installs and boots without fail throughout the many trials and attempted approaches.

Yesterday I tested 3 different FW400 MDDs here and came up with three VERY similar boot-device paths noted via printenv in Open Firmware / Terminal.

(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6335.0;attach=10168;image)

Yakob’s (on the other hand) reports:

(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6335.0;attach=10170;image)

Time for some Open Firmware nvram editing?

Or was this already edited…
to adjust for possible damage sustained via the bad cable?

More info? Read back up through this thread.

Thanks. ;)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: zefrenchtoon on June 07, 2022, 12:32:12 PM
Hi!

Very interesting quest  -afro-

About OpenFirmware, I've found an article very interesting about how it works but … another article in french  :-[

I hope that Google Translate will be able to do its magic  -afro-

Here is the link and find "hd:,\\:tbxi" in the page if you don't want to read all (btw it is very interesting …)

https://www.pierreblazquez.com/2020/05/21/retro-demarrage-macintosh-68k-ppc/
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: GuiBer on June 07, 2022, 11:41:02 PM
If I can help, I have some infos about OpenFirmware :

Open Firmware Version History

4.1.8 - Power Mac G4 (Digital Audio, January 2001)
4.2.0 - iBook G3 (Dual USB, May 2001)
4.4.8 - Power Mac G4 (Mirror Drive Doors, June 2003)
4.8.6 - PowerBook G4 (April 2004)
4.8.9 - Mac Mini G4 (January 2005)
4.9.1 - PowerBook G4 (January 2005)
4.9.3 - iBook G4 (July 2005)
5.1.5 - Power Mac G5 (Omega, June 2003)
5.2.7 - Power Mac G5 (Cypher, October 2005)

Versions 4.9 and 5.2 Feature Set: 'UD' Device Aliasing, Boot Picker Arrow Key Support ...

Accessing Open Firmware

Method I: At the chime, hold down the Option key. The Boot Picker comes up. Press Control + Z to switch to Open Firmware.
Method II: At the chime, hold down Command + Option + O + F until you've arrived at the Open Firmware prompt.

Running System Diagnostics

o To reset the system NVRAM, enter reset-nvram
o To reset all changes made to Open Firmware, enter set-defaults
o To reset the machine, enter reset-all
o To display a list of all central device aliases, enter devalias
o To display information for a device, enter dev <device alias> .properties
( i.e. dev /cpus .properties | dev screen .properties | dev /memory .properties etc. )
( Note: The capacity values output by dev /memory .properties are saved in the hexadecimal format and will need to be converted to be understood by most. )
o To display a list of all utilities, enter printenv
( WARNING, DO NOT RUN setenv little-endian? true ! This will brick your machine beyond trivial repair! )
o To check for available bootable operating systems, enter multi-boot into the prompt. The Boot Picker comes up.
Note: The utility's interface and control methods may vary between versions.
o To check the system hard disk and its partitions without extracting it from the machine, enter target-mode into the prompt. Target Disk Mode comes up. Connect a FireWire cable from the subject machine to another compatible machine. The subject machine's partitions will appear on the other machine, ready for review or remote boot.

Booting an Operating System

o To automatically enter Open Firmware upon boot, enter setenv auto-boot? false
( Enter setenv auto-boot? true to revert to default. )
o To set a default boot volume, enter setenv boot-device <volume>:<partition ID>,<path>
( i.e. setenv boot-device hd:1,\\:tbxi | setenv boot-device cd:,\\yaboot | setenv boot-device ud:,ofwboot | etc. )
( If no partition ID is provided, the system will look for the first available OS on the specified volume. If none are found, the system will either revert back to Open Firmware, or display a "do not cross" symbol. )
o To boot between locally installed operating systems, enter multi-boot into the prompt. The Boot Picker comes up.
Note: The utility's interface and control methods may vary between versions.
o To boot from a USB disk, enter one of the following depending on the targeted OS (OF V. 4.9 / 5.2 Only) -

Mac OS X: boot ud:,\\:tbxi
Linux: boot ud:,\\yaboot
Linux (GRUB): boot ud:,\\grub.img
OpenBSD: boot ud:,ofwboot

Tricks

o To initialize The Boot Picker faster, enter setenv skip-netboot? true. This will disable scanning for a bootable network OS. To turn NetBoot back on, enter setenv skip-netboot? false.
o To set up a personalized welcome message for Open Firmware to repeat upon activation, enter setenv oem-banner < enter a custom message here > , and setenv oem-banner? true .

Actions

mac-boot: boots either the specified default or first available operating system environment
shut-down: saves all changes and turns off the machine
eject cd: ejects the disc tray or loaded optical disc

Many Resources about OF can be found here :

http://web.archive.org/web/20200529...ook/bonus/ancient/whatismacosx/arch_boot.html
http://www.firmworks.com/QuickRef.html
Title: Open Firmware References
Post by: FdB on June 08, 2022, 07:18:58 AM
Once again I find myself wanting to learn French thanks to zefrenchtoon.
Yet as mentioned, Gurgle Translate did a good job translating it for me
and I read & saved that reference material from:
Pierre Blazquez, who apparently...

“messes with computers, drinks too much coffee and listens to music at max volume”.

Sounds like many of us here?
Thanks, yet again zefrenchtoon!

And then GuiBer also contributes a wealth of Open Firmware information
that is also very greatly appreciated. Have also saved this to a folder
on my desktop. Maybe we’ll all get a better grasp of Open Firmware?

Thanks again to you both for helping this old codger learn a bit more
and for providing great reference material to assist in this quest.
(And likely others.) Thank you both very much!

Perhaps we will get V. Yakob’s MDD booting and running OS 9.2
after all, with all of this help! :)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: zefrenchtoon on June 08, 2022, 12:38:27 PM
You're welcome !  -afro-

Another link I've found during my googling :

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/the-open-firmware-wiki.2225024/
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: V.Yakob on June 08, 2022, 01:05:08 PM
Thanx, I saw this post, tried to boot from OpenFirmware. I also used cheat sheets on this blog (https://mac-classic.com/article-categories/open-firmware/) and on the website morph.zone (https://library.morph.zone/Open_Firmware).

Code: [Select]
boot cd:,\\:tbxi

I get the following messages on the gray screen

Code: [Select]
Loading ELF
DO-QUIESCE finished


When the car hangs on the gray screen, no matter what boot method I use -- the power on the USB bus is lost. All that remains is to turn off by pressing the power button.
Title: Re: MDD / Grey Screen Only
Post by: FBz on June 08, 2022, 04:02:21 PM
Something wicked this way comes.

As much as I would now dearly love to blame macOS Monterey’s presence in the “download & burn chain” here for the now constant inability to install OS 9.2.2 on this MDD… I cannot confirm, nor deny that Monterey is possibly the source of the difficulties (as I do not run Monterey here and cannot test this scheme).

However, since V. Yakob can and has installed both Tiger and Leopard on this MDD numerous times successfully, I still question the download and burned installation CDs of OS 9.2, from both MacTron’s Rescue & Install disc AND the Universal 9.2 installer, downloaded first via the nefarious Monterey-running machine.

He has now completed the entire erase and attempted install routine and neither CD mentioned will install. Grey Screen!


Now, Two More possible routes?

(1). Also as suggested by Jubadub: “…burn images, ironically, on Windows using ImgBurn”.
       http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,6335.msg47529.html#msg47529

And…

(2).  The “Mac OS 9.2.2 “boot kit” for booting your G3/G4 from a USB stick”.
        Again however, this would also entail downloads via the Monterey-based Mac.
        But a “boot kit” is available from:
        https://www.macintoshrepository.org/23373-mac-os-9-2-2-boot-kit-for-booting-your-g3-g4-from-an-usb-stick

Anyone gone this USB route? Please speak up.


*Not to mention the old “is yo mouse attached to yo keyboard and that attached to one single USB port”  OR is he using “both USB ports on the MDD” - one for keyboard and one for the mouse? *This caveat concern via many Mac OS retail installer discs.

Yes, now on the brink of utter madness here. ::)


But now he’s getting a white screen when attempting to install MorphOS?

Again, MorphOS downloaded via the Mac running Monterey???       E-Vil I say.

Sorry, that’s all I got. ???
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: zefrenchtoon on June 09, 2022, 11:57:57 PM
also, don't forget to burn CD at 4x max to be correctly readable on "old" drives ...
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: V.Yakob on June 10, 2022, 07:25:08 AM
And so, we can sum up some results:

1. Mac OS 9 does not boot, freezes on a blank gray screen;
2. MorphOS does not boot, freezes on a blank white screen;
3. Mac OS X 10.2, 10.3, 10.4, 10.5, boot and work normally;
4. Linux (Ubuntu 14.04, 16.04, Debian 11), boot and work normally;
5. Apple Hardware Test is successfully tests hardware, there are no errors or problems;
6. Apple Service Diagnostics is successfully tests hardware, there are no errors and problems.

I tried to burn discs at 4x speed -- it doesn't change anything.  :(
Also today I tried to make a bootable flash drive -- After choosing a flash drive, there was a floppy disk with a flashing question. I waited for changes for about 5-10 minutes, then restarted the computer. After rebooting, there was only a gray screen.
Then I used another port and then another flash drive, but the result was one - a gray screen.

I'm at an impasse. :-X
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: GaryN on June 10, 2022, 07:52:51 AM
Do you know / can you tell what video card is in there?
It sounds as if the gray screen is appearing just when the monitor duties are handed over to the GPU.
There are conditions where the GPU will work in OSX but not in OS9 for lack of the necessary driver.

This sounds like a long shot, for sure… but I think that's about where this whole thing is.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: FBz on June 10, 2022, 09:28:43 AM
All input appreciated at this point, for certain. Thanks!

This one…   

   (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6335.0;attach=10203;image)

   (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6335.0;attach=10205;image)

After running the numbers I think it’s the 9000 Pro, like one of mine below.
Both in an MDD - and with no OS 9.2 install problems here.
(From Universal OR MacTron’s Rescue & Install burned CDs)

        (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6335.0;attach=10207;image)

It is all - and continues to be… a long, on-going mystery. ;)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: zefrenchtoon on June 10, 2022, 12:11:42 PM
What if it is a Mac card (adc présent if i see well), badly flashed … so the rom is unusable under os9
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: GaryN on June 10, 2022, 05:44:59 PM
Oh well…… there goes THAT theory.

What if it is a Mac card (adc présent if i see well), badly flashed … so the rom is unusable under os9

Before we get into why anybody would flash a card made for a Mac to put in a Mac…
Your Acer monitor.  A mismatched resolution or refresh rate can cause "the grays".
Check to see if the OSX Monitor settings are unusual
* Really, really long shot: Unlikely since you're using downloads from here, but display-based extensions like SwitchRes can also give you "the grays" because they cause the card to switch to different settings when they kick in.

I'm beating this drum because:
It sounds like the screen goes gray when Extensions are loaded and
Everything works in OSX, which strongly suggests a software issue in OS9 and a good suspect is "wrong" OS9 monitor settings which kick in during boot.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: zefrenchtoon on June 13, 2022, 05:01:50 AM
Before we get into why anybody would flash a card made for a Mac to put in a Mac…

a Mac card flashed to be used in a PC then ... reflashed to be reused in a Mac ?  :-X
Title: Re: Open Firmware References
Post by: zefrenchtoon on June 15, 2022, 04:39:05 AM
Once again I find myself wanting to learn French thanks to zefrenchtoon.

Then, maybe you will want to read this:

https://www.polymicrosystems.com/files/yosemite_bootrom.htm

found by journaldulapin (rabbit newspaper in english)  ;)

https://www.journaldulapin.com/2022/06/15/yosemite-open-firmware/
Title: G3 B&W Open Firmware / History
Post by: FBz on June 15, 2022, 01:14:34 PM
Thanks "ZFT" (zefrenchtoon).

First link specifically refers to Open Firmware Ver. 1.1 (G3 Blue & White Mac) but perhaps some possible helpful references pertaining to V.Yakob’s MDD?

And the 2nd link, interesting info about the G3 “Blue” / Code name: “Yosemite” / long before the OS of the same name? Here’s the Google translation of that:
https://www-journaldulapin-com.translate.goog/2022/06/15/yosemite-open-firmware/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: FBz on June 16, 2022, 11:32:48 AM
Latest from V. Yakob.

After another attempted installation, got this far before lock-up.
Notice what looks like 5 extensions loaded (whereas the Universal Installer normally loads 7.)

(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6335.0;attach=10217;image)

If only the bands at the bottom did not obscure what extensions actually loaded before the lock-up.

And then a reboot afterwards yielded the same old gray screen routine.

Have suggested another attempted install and reboot afterwards, holding down the Shift key.

Anybody / other ideas ???

(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6335.0;attach=10227;image)
*Click to enlarge.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: IIO on June 16, 2022, 04:16:00 PM
what happens if you perform force-quit after this lockup?

does it eventually kill the ATI driver (instead of the finder)?
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: Sea Mac on June 16, 2022, 07:13:29 PM
Hi!

I have PowerMac G4 MDD (FW400, 2003), I can't boot into Mac OS 9.2.2.

Tried:
1. Mac OS 9 Live community image to use
2. Software Restoration images 691-4872-A, 691-4873-A and 691-4409-A.
3. Unpacked os9general.dmg
4. Installed CPU_MacOS9_Z.pkg_.zip
5. Reset NVRAM using ⌘+⌥+P+R
6. Reset NVRAM via OpenFirmware ⌘+⌥+F+O
reset-nvram
set-defaults
reset-all

I used Apple Service Diagnostic (691-4769) to check the hardware and AHT 2.0.2 -- no problems were found, the tests were passed successfully.

The result is always the same -- Mac OS 9 does not boot. Just a gray screen, it turns out to get out of this state only by holding the power button.

At the same time, Mac OS X 10.2, 10.3, 10.4 work fine. Classic mode starts without problems.

What am I missing for a native Mac OS 9 boot?
I stupidly stumbled upon the (I Hope) proper answer about a day before that same web site also directed me HERE. I thought  to myself "I'll never be able to use this archaic information ... "
And the FIRST Problem I meet, when I joined today: was THIS One.
"D@m*, I swear I just read that answer YESTERDAY - and thought it extremely arcane ... WHICH Web Site WAS IT ON?!?"

Aren't you glad I remembered?

https://vintagemacmuseum.com/resources/mac-software/

Skip down to Just Under the Picture ...
Quote
Mac OS 9.2.2 for PowerMac G4 MDD – Retail Mac OS 9 installers do not work on the last generation PowerMac G4 MDD models. This is a copy of Mac OS 9.2.2 included on the MDD bundled Software Restore CDs which is able to boot these G4 models into OS 9 (FireWire 400 models only). It can also be used as Classic Mode on any PowerMac running Mac OS X 10.1-10.4.

Try this Image: https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/mac-os-922-powermac-g4-mdd

This Link may be of some help also: http://vintagemacmuseum.com/reinstalling-mac-os-9-on-a-powermac-g4-mdd/
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: V.Yakob on June 17, 2022, 01:47:53 AM
This may be a monitor and video card or OS compatibility issue: Acer AL1917 C <--> ATI Radeon 9000, 64 Mb, Mac Edition
When the computer starts up, the monitor works in 60 Hz mode. It is possible that Mac OS 9, as well as MorphOS, cannot determine the monitor or its configuration, and therefore the boot freezes.

My past "random" Mac OS 9 boots were successful apparently only because the video card with the monitor was able to agree and choose the right resolution and hertz. So far, only guesses.

I just bought another monitor: Apple Cinema Display 23", early 2007. I'm waiting for it to be delivered, and it will be possible to say more precisely.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: GaryN on June 17, 2022, 03:11:27 PM
This may be a monitor and video card or OS compatibility issue: Acer AL1917 C <--> ATI Radeon 9000, 64 Mb, Mac Edition
When the computer starts up, the monitor works in 60 Hz mode. It is possible that Mac OS 9, as well as MorphOS, cannot determine the monitor or its configuration, and therefore the boot freezes.

My past "random" Mac OS 9 boots were successful apparently only because the video card with the monitor was able to agree and choose the right resolution and hertz. So far, only guesses.

I just bought another monitor: Apple Cinema Display 23", early 2007. I'm waiting for it to be delivered, and it will be possible to say more precisely.

Once again, you're close, but  … The boot is not freezing!

The monitor is going gray when the video output is switched to something the Acre cannot sync to.
The computer actually has booted but you just can't see it.

Your Acer monitor.  A mismatched resolution or refresh rate can cause "the grays".
Check to see if the OSX Monitor settings are unusual
* Really, really long shot: Unlikely since you're using downloads from here, but display-based extensions like SwitchRes can also give you "the grays" because they cause the card to switch to different settings when they kick in.
I'm beating this drum because:
It sounds like the screen goes gray when Extensions are loaded and
Everything works in OSX, which strongly suggests a software issue in OS9 and a good suspect is "wrong" OS9 monitor settings which kick in during boot.
Perhaps I should have clarified: Not so much "wrong" monitor settings but simply a standard Macintosh resolution the POS Acer cannot track.
When your Cinema Display arrives and works the first time, everybody is going to have to kick themselves for missing something so obvious.

(No worries… if I'm wrong, though I doubt it, I'll happily kick MYself… twice.)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: V.Yakob on June 18, 2022, 12:06:29 AM

Once again, you're close, but  … The boot is not freezing!

The monitor is going gray when the video output is switched to something the Acre cannot sync to.
The computer actually has booted but you just can't see it.

Maybe so, but I doubt it. When the machine "freezing" on a gray screen, USB accessories do not work - there is no power on USB.
When I managed to boot Mac OS 9 or when boot OS X, there is also a gray screen, only it is displayed for about half a second. The power on the USB also disappears - it is clearly visible on the optical mouse, the red diode goes out.
I still believe that when this gray screen is displayed, the machine must undergo some kind of initialization, but for some reason this does not happen, and it hangs, or rather expects.

The new monitor will be on Monday-Tuesday, and everything will become clear.

P.S.
In general, I noticed that, for example, in the multi-boot menu, the image on the monitor flickers. It's unpleasant to look at it. When I open the monitor settings, the current screen resolution is displayed 1280x1024 60 Hz. But when Mac OS X is booted, the parameters are the same, but the image looks normal.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: GaryN on June 18, 2022, 02:01:13 PM
Maybe so, but I doubt it. When the machine "freezing" on a gray screen, USB accessories do not work - there is no power on USB.
When I managed to boot Mac OS 9 or when boot OS X, there is also a gray screen, only it is displayed for about half a second. The power on the USB also disappears - it is clearly visible on the optical mouse, the red diode goes out.
Ahh… so typical of internet interactions. One is always acting on limited information with vital details missing.
You're correct that the boot is hanging at that point. Also, your (unintended?) pun is clearly accurate.
The new monitor will be on Monday-Tuesday, and everything will become clear.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: V.Yakob on June 20, 2022, 10:17:05 AM
No, it's not a monitor. :(
Apple Cinema Display shows exactly the same gray screen when trying to start OS 9.
USB accessories do not work on this gray screen in the same way. I plugging in and disconnecting the mouse, while the gray screen is displayed, the red diode lights up and immediately goes out.

Not Fate.  :-[

Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: GaryN on June 20, 2022, 03:02:55 PM
No, it's not a monitor. :(
Apple Cinema Display shows exactly the same gray screen when trying to start OS 9.

OK… NOT the monitor. Having kicked myself twice, as promised, I reviewed this entire thread as best I could. Confusing, to say the least.
There's really very few places remaining to look - especially since the good OSX boot all but eliminates any hardware issues. So…

I have a "stupid" question: Have you blessed the OS9 System Folder?

I saw that you have performed at least one complete NVRAM reset. You're attempting boot. The firmware is looking for an OS9 System bootloader. That is a "blessed" TBXI file. If not found, the boot hangs.

If you know about and have already done this, ignore it… BUT, if not:

The following is Macbooting 101 i.e. really basic but I don't see it has actually been tried. So……

1. Boot OSX
2. Goto the OS9 System Folder
3. Drag the System and Finder out of the System Folder.
4. Put them back.
5. Goto OSX / System Preferences / Startup Disk
6. Select OS9
7. Pray to the ghost of Steve Jobs.
8. Restart

Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: V.Yakob on June 21, 2022, 02:29:43 AM
I'm not alone with this problem. There are many similar messages on the Internet in thematic forums, but unfortunately there is no 100% solution.

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/488979
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2464789
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/729744
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/new-mac-user-os-x-grey-screen-of-death-advice.39521/
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=4021.0
https://ifixit.com/Answers/View/294967/grey+screen+on+mac+os+9.1+startup+(Gsod)

This may not be the most common problem, but it exists. Sometimes they talk about a dead battery, but I have it normal, I also bought a new battery. FBz tests have shown that the computer starts normally and without a battery, and passes AHT tests without errors or warnings.
I managed to boot into Mac OS 9 once, and once into the universal community installation image.

I tried to bless the system from OS X.

Code: [Select]
sudo bless --folder9 "/Volumes/macoos9/System Folder" --bootBlockFile "/usr/share/misc/bootblockdata"

Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: GaryN on June 21, 2022, 02:47:04 PM
Well…………………………

OK.
First, let's lose the notion that this may be a hardware problem of any kind. It's not.
Second, you seem to have tried every possible solution and not only have they not succeeded, they have not even determined the cause.
So…

We're clearly and obviously missing something very basic and fundamental here, and that is:
A reason you can seemingly boot OSX and any other even non-Mac OS but any and all attempts with OS9 fail.

My last guess - because it's the only thing I can think of that hasn't been tested / eliminated is:

Something has trashed, set a flag, locked out, etc. etc. the old Mac OS from the machine.
There are really only a couple of ways that can happen.
1. An incompatible CPU upgrade.
2. A firmware problem. (This could include a damaged ROM so, technically, that would be a hardware problem. It's just very unlikely.)
3. There is no 3.

Sonnet CPU's for example, require a firmware edit when first installed and it IS possible to find yourself in a place where the machine will boot OSX but not OS9. This seems to NOT be your problem and I'm just thinking out loud here…
I'm also very puzzled about how you could have successfully booted OS9 just once…

Lastly, THIS concerns me:

And so, we can sum up some results:

1. Mac OS 9 does not boot, freezes on a blank gray screen;
2. MorphOS does not boot, freezes on a blank white screen;
3. Mac OS X 10.2, 10.3, 10.4, 10.5, boot and work normally;
4. Linux (Ubuntu 14.04, 16.04, Debian 11), boot and work normally;
5. Apple Hardware Test is successfully tests hardware, there are no errors or problems;
6. Apple Service Diagnostics is successfully tests hardware, there are no errors and problems.

Are you saying you have actually loaded up and booted/attempted to boot all of these?
If so, I would now suggest a fresh install of OS9.2.2 on a freshly initialized HD - and I mean NOT a drive that has had all of the Linux, Morph etc. stuff on it and has simply been "erased" - I mean a drive - guaranteed to be freshly initialized Apple HFS+, formatted with OS9 drivers and loaded with OS9.2.2 - that was a virgin yesterday.

You say you have also reset the NVRAM. That would require all of the following:

reset-nvram - This sets up a factory reset of the NVRAM.

set-defaults - Sets the flag so that the defaults embedded in ROM can be returned back to factory default

reset-all - FACTORY reset complete.. and machine reboots.

If you get to HERE and the damn thing still won't work, the only thing left involves supernatural or alien forces or maybe just a really persistent Gypsy curse on the MDD. In that case, you're only alternative is to pass the machine along with the curse on to someone else who doesn't care about running anything other than OSX on it and acquiring another machine.

* Of course, should you actually do that only to find the replacement MDD has exactly the same issue, then the curse must be on you personally, in which case you're well beyond any useful advice you can find on THIS Forum……

Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: DieHard on June 21, 2022, 05:21:38 PM
Damn... I have so many extra units, but I can't get one to Russia.  Move to SoCal and you have your pick free of charge
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: Greystash on June 21, 2022, 05:52:50 PM
Following on from Gary, have you tried doing a full Open Firmware reset?

Here's how to do it on a desktop:
With your computer off, press and keep holding the power button. You hear the programmers tone (not the boot chime), but keep holding. Next you will hear a boot chime and then the system will enter Open Firmware with the default settings loaded.
Once your computer has booted into Open Firmware you should run the following commands to reset the NVRAM contents, and any other misconfigured settings:
reset-nvram
set-defaults
reset-all

This process has saved a few of my non-booting Macs before
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: V.Yakob on June 22, 2022, 12:51:29 PM
full Open Firmware reset?
I did the reset in this way several times, but there was no result. Now I did it again -- without changes.
In that case, you're only alternative is to pass the machine along with the curse on to someone else who doesn't care about running anything other than OSX on it and acquiring another machine.

Most likely, that's what we'll have to do. During this month, I tried many different diagnostic and reset options, but nothing helps. The only problem is that I will sell this MDD for a very looong time. ;D

Damn... I have so many extra units, but I can't get one to Russia.  Move to SoCal and you have your pick free of charge
Yes, there's a problem with parcels and payment now, but let's not talk about politics. :) When all this is over, it will be easier.

Now I have replaced RAM, installed 4x512 MB PC3200 (KVR400X64C3A/512). I know, need a PC2700, but I couldn't find such RAM. One loop of the Apple Service Diagnostics (OF and OS X) tests was completed without problems. But I'm thinking of leaving it for 12 loops, maybe under load, when the system is hot, some problem will be found.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: GaryN on June 22, 2022, 02:09:51 PM
There's no problem with using PC3200 RAM. It just runs at PC2700 speed.

I'll keep thinking about this mystery and hope for a divine revelation…
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: V.Yakob on June 23, 2022, 04:15:01 AM
Behind 13 hours of testing and one dead memory bank that couldn't stand it. ;D



Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: FBz on June 23, 2022, 09:42:21 AM
These differences... of any possible consequence here?

      (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6335.0;attach=10250;image)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: V.Yakob on June 23, 2022, 10:48:54 AM
Now the plan is this: I will change the video card.
Ordered Radeon 9800 Pro, 128 Mb (PC). I will update the firmware and seal contacts 3, 11. I wonder if something will change or not. Earlier, the forum reported that this map works with Mac OS 9:http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=2438.0

If there are no changes, we conclude that this MDD is dead for Mac OS 9.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: peeperpc on June 23, 2022, 12:05:43 PM
I find OS 9 is more sensitive about RAM than OS X. So I would start from using only one stick of RAM in a slot.

Also, I would try connecting the HDD to the ATA/66 port, with no other drive on the cable, in case there's something wrong on the ATA/100 bus or a conflict between drives or adapters.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: V.Yakob on June 23, 2022, 12:31:34 PM
I find OS 9 is more sensitive about RAM than OS X. So I would start from using only one stick of RAM in a slot.

Also, I would try connecting the HDD to the ATA/66 port, with no other drive on the cable, in case there's something wrong on the ATA/100 bus or a conflict between drives or adapters.

I tried 4 different HDDs and 3 PATA cables, and 1 SSD connected via a SATA to PATA adapter. I also used all 3 ports on the motherboard 2 ATA/66 и ATA/100
I also tried using with one stick of RAM, tried to change these sticks, and slots. But there was no result. I still did it before I wrote the first post.

The last thing I can do is change the video card. If this does not help, it will only mean that there is some problem in the motherboard.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: V.Yakob on June 24, 2022, 03:16:16 AM
Yesterday I tried to boot the TechtoolV257 (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,814.0.html) diagnostic image.

Part Mac OS 9 based tools did not boot, of course, but the screen was strange.You can't see it in the photo, but a question mark flashed behind these stripes on the floppy disk.
Part Mac OS X based tools is booting, the test passes. Offers to change the structure of the disk, fixes, but retesting again offers to change the structure of the disk.

The following attempts to  boot Mac OS 9 based tools were also unsuccessful, there was only a gray screen.
 :-\
Damn it.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: FBz on June 24, 2022, 08:27:47 AM
“The last thing I can do is change the video card.
If this does not help, it will only mean that there is some problem in the motherboard.”
- V. Yakob

AND NOW… back once again to a possibly damaged, not fully functioning video card?

(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6335.0;attach=10257;image)

Works just fine with OS X but OS 9 is a now, long-tested no-go. In the past, when the machine had almost completely booted OS 9 (once?) it loaded only 5 extensions before then locking up and displaying the banding stripes across the bottom of the display.

(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6335.0;attach=10217;image)

Here, I’d slap another (lesser) video card in to test. But Vitaly does not have that option there.
Instead he now awaits the arrival of a Radeon 9800 Pro, 128 Mb (PC) that he will likely need to flash(?) and “disable those pins”, in order for it to work in his MDD. And overall, the noted performance of the 9800 Pro is questionable with OS 9.

See:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,3849.msg25923.html#msg25923
AND:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2438.0.html

So before the 9800 arrives, maybe remove / disable all* of the ATI extensions in the OS 9 partition (via OS X) and test with the 9000 Pro, a few more times?

*Especially the ATI video accelerator.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: IIO on June 24, 2022, 11:58:45 AM
interim logbook report:

"week 4.

it still has stripes, but now it slightly begins to look like MacOS9.

about to replace non-mac card in the mac with another non-mac card.

reaching pluto in t-12. need to put team on vacation for one week after landing.
"
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: V.Yakob on June 24, 2022, 12:29:30 PM
So before the 9800 arrives, maybe remove / disable all* of the ATI extensions in the OS 9 partition (via OS X) and test with the 9000 Pro, a few more times?
Removed, but there are no changes.

interim logbook report:

"week 4.

it still has stripes, but now it slightly begins to look like MacOS9.

about to replace non-mac card in the mac with another non-mac card.

reaching pluto in t-12. need to put team on vacation for one week after landing.
"
No, Mac OS 9 does not boot, there are accidents, but in general it does not work. Usually only a gray screen.
Why? Radeon 9000 Pro Mac Edition, 64 Mb is now installed. A photo of this videocard is in the posts above. I don't have any other video cards that I could install now.

First to the Red Planet, like Arni in the movie "Total Recall".  8)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: FBz on June 24, 2022, 02:48:22 PM
Think that Vitaly has now surpassed the amount of time that it took me to get my original MDD to install and run OS X. (OS 9 worked fine for me - but OS X would not!) Some-thing was missing.

And EveryMac notes that the Radeon 9000 Pro - did ship stock in the 2003 MDDs.

      (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6335.0;attach=10259;image)

So perhaps now (here clutching at last straws)… maybe download, burn and install the complete “full boat” of the very LAST MDD software set (as previously mentioned by DieHard) and try it all over again. EVEN before the arrival of the 9800 Pro? http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,3266.0.html [One DVD and Five CDs.]

If that doesn’t work, perhaps it is way past time to consult a Gypsy to have the curse removed from this machine OR to begin the sacrificial offering of small live animals. Hoo-doo Voo-doo, bad ju-ju. ::)


AND one more thing… the 2003 MDDs also originally shipped with Mac OS 10.2 (Jaguar). Which might be easier to download and burn than the full set DieHard mentioned. I don’t recall if you have tried Jaguar before, but it seems to me that I did once go this route to “build” an MDD - eventually forward to Tiger (and with OS 9 too). Jaguar is available as a downloadable, two-CD set.

https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/mac-osx-mac-os-10-ppc

OR:

https://www.macintoshrepository.org/45-mac-os-x-for-ppc-osx-10-0-10-1-10-2-10-3-10-4-10-5-

This approach with Jaguar, was to install the “something that wasn’t there”  with the later Panther or Tiger installs. And after installing Jaguar, I installed OS 9 and then went on to install Tiger etc. afterwards. Hey, it may be worth a shot… before the 9800 arrives?

It’s the OS stepping stone, linear OS progression routine, Ahh-nold.  ;)



“At the same time, Mac OS X 10.2, 10.3, 10.4 work fine. Classic mode starts without problems.” -Vitaly

Ahh, so you have tried Jaguar! How about one more time? Insert the Jaguar disc, erase completely and partition the SSD into two partitions. Install Jaguar… AND THEN install OS 9.2 on the other partition. (Install Panther or Tiger over Jaguar on the same partition only afterwards.) Good luck!
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: GaryN on June 24, 2022, 06:08:19 PM
Capt. LongShot here……

So…Vitaly. If you find this question insulting for any reason, I sincerely apologize in advance. I ask it only because it appears that every single possible cause for the machine refusing to boot OS9 has been investigated and eliminated and there's literally nothing left beside the Gypsy curse I previously mentioned.

All except for one……

Does your MDD possibly look like the picture below?
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: FBz on June 24, 2022, 08:19:12 PM
Well, I can answer that. NO.

Here's an image sent to me from Vitaly, very early on.

(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6335.0;attach=10263;image)

But yes, the question is completely understandable.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: V.Yakob on June 25, 2022, 04:15:31 AM
I'll say more, FBz suspected that it was a case from MDD 2003, and a motherboard from FW800 with a removed FW800 port. But no, it's a motherboard from MDD FW400, 2003.
We also compared this motherboard to those of FBz.

We checked all the crazy options we could come up with.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: GaryN on June 25, 2022, 02:03:59 PM
So, we're back yet again to the Gypsy curse.

I guess there's always Kremlin-authorized malware
Title: Boot-Dee-vice?
Post by: FBz on June 27, 2022, 07:41:25 AM
Okay, anyone running a Sonnet (or other) processor upgrade in their MDD? Wondering about just how your boot-device path is noted… as if there’s a difference in those MDDs that have been “patched” to run OS 9 with similar processor upgrades?

(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6335.0;attach=10250;image)

Of course, Vitaly has reset his MDD to original(?) settings but I still wonder about these possible differences.

A few years ago, Tugboat had a Quicksilver with a Sonnet upgrade that worked fine with Tiger… but it would not boot OS 9 natively. He swapped the Sonnet upgrade out with an original Apple Quicksilver CPU and then could boot OS 9 natively.

Yes, still rolling all of this around - perhaps (more than) a bit like a dung beetle. ;)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: GaryN on June 27, 2022, 02:22:09 PM
Personally, I've been pondering this issue with the assumption that if there was a Sonnet or other proc upgrade in Yakob's MDD, we would have found out about it by now…

I have a Sonnet MDX in my MDD. There is a firmware update required to use it. AFAIK, it's because the Sonnet uses 7448 CPUs which must be added to the "acceptable CPU" list in firmware to allow booting with it.

There is also an OS9 Extension for it that is named with a leading space to load first and - as far as I can tell - simply displays the Sonnet logo under the "OS 9.2" startup box. I have booted with it disabled and it makes no difference - the system boots either way.

There is also a specific (modified?) Multiprocessing/"Apple CPU Plugins" file for OS9. When I first got the Sonnet, it wouldn't boot OS9. I was sent the file by a kind soul at Sonnet and it fixed the issue. It's "Version 3.5 / Mac OS CPU Software 4.5" I don't remember now, but it may have been modified or it may have simply been a later version than what I had. It seemed to be a known issue to the guy at the time. There was/is no reference to this at all in any Sonnet literature. It also does NOT however, affect operation if/when you return the original procs to the system.
* I also remember sending a copy to somebody else with a Sonnet-ized MDD that wouldn't boot and it worked for him too…

Anyway, bottom line is: Even if there was a Sonnet previously installed and a firmware patch applied, it doesn't affect "going back" to the original 7450s in any way. The boot-device path is simply the path to the location of the boot tbxi file.

That all said…

Your chart of "Yakob's after Firmware Updater" is puzzling… the path "pci2/ata-6@D/00:12" seems… weird for lack of a better word.
What generates that boot-device list? I'll run it on my MDD.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: FBz on June 27, 2022, 08:46:10 PM
Gary,

Not certain that this is what you were asking but…

Booted into Tiger, open the Terminal app and type in: nvram -p

That’ll get you contents of nvram including the boot-device info.



I just now booted into open firmware on a G3 iBook and typed in
devalias at the prompt and got the following:

(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6335.0;attach=10269;image)

Will do same on an MDD tonight / tomorrow just to see what (or if)
pci2/ata-6@D/00:12 rears it’s head. I don’t understand the difference,
or if it does make any difference. Weird? Odd? Maybe nothing. ???
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: GaryN on June 28, 2022, 12:27:05 AM
Will do same on an MDD tonight / tomorrow just to see what (or if)
pci2/ata-6@D/00:12 rears it’s head. I don’t understand the difference,
or if it does make any difference. Weird? Odd? Maybe nothing. ???
I'm curious because I don't get pci2/ either but it's in the boot-device path so what does it mean or where does it go?

I'm guessing (again) because I haven't been interacting with Yakov that much and I don't know BUT:
How about the good ol' MDD cable select stuff? With an improperly set HDD OR a non-cable select cable, the system could be looking for the OS9 system in the wrong place or simply not finding it  ?
We need to confirm that not just the OSX System, but the OS9 System as well is actually visible to the computer at startup.
If he has it on a different drive and/or a different ATA bus with an incorrect cable select……see where I'm going? The MDD can see OSX but not OS9.
Granted, it evidently can see Morph and everything else it's been exposed to so this is probably a no good theory as well.
I hate to think the firmware has been irreversibly corrupted by one of those many OS's. It only takes one little incorrect flag-type bit to f-up the old Mac OS while the Unix-based OSX isn't bothered by it……… I think

I mean, dammit… there are only so many possible causes for this and it seems like ALL of them have been eliminated.
This is the point where you normally swap-test both the motherboard, the CPU daughterboard and everything else until you find the culprit.
Is there no such thing as a Mac user group in Russia?
…………… Seriously, I'm about ready to return to the Kremlin spyware theory
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: Greystash on June 28, 2022, 01:29:40 AM
I have actually experienced this behavior before in several machines due to weird HDD setups. I haven't been following this too closely so sorry if any of this has already been tried. I only set up my OS9 machines with SSDs now using bribges and some have presented the same behavior. They would only boot OSX, would show a disk with a blinking question mark, or would stay on a gray screen and do nothing. The OS9 partition would still be visible as a startup disk under OSX (if OSX was present on another partition/drive) but OS9 would never boot.
Most recently I tried this setup in an iMac G4 (700Mhz) and it refused to boot OS9 regardless of the different configurations I chose (single/split partitions, master/slave, different bribges etc.). Some configurations resulted in the stuck gray screen and did nothing, others it would get to the point where it would show the disk with a question mark. At this point I gave up and figured it could possibly be the SSD brand/type that has incompatibilities or it just won't work with a bribge. On my iMac G3 no matter what configuration I have it shows a floppy disk with question mark for ~20s before it finds the OS9 partition and boots  normally. I can't install OSX on another partition otherwise it will always choose OSX to boot before finding OS9. On a Quicksilver I have had setups that work with both OSX + OS9 and it would boot to OS9 no problems on the first boot, but upon restarting it would only find the OSX partition/disk as bootable. I would then have to do a proper shut-down and turn it back on again to restart in OS9.

With my MDD issues (which are now solved) I found that having no pin termination (CS, Slave, Master) on my boot HD (mechanical) caused the machine to crash when waking from sleep in both OS9 and OSX.

Sorry for the rambling but I agree with Gary, the HD setup seems like a good place to keep digging. HD setups with OS9 can result in some very strange behavior.. I would try testing with more than one mechanical HDD's that are properly formatted and have had drivers installed with Drive Setup (if you haven't already)

Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: peeperpc on June 28, 2022, 10:04:10 AM
I have the same boot-device pci2/ata-6@D/@0:12,\\:tbxi.
The HDD is a 2TB Seagate connected to a Bribge adapter set as master.
The Mac is MDD 867MHz Dual, running OS X 10.5.8.


On a Quicksilver I have had setups that work with both OSX + OS9 and it would boot to OS9 no problems on the first boot, but upon restarting it would only find the OSX partition/disk as bootable. I would then have to do a proper shut-down and turn it back on again to restart in OS9.

Not the same exact problem but the characteristic is the same as one of my "Bribge" adapters: it only works properly in first boot.

In my case, the defective Bribge, when set as master, refused to boot OS X (no OS 9 was in focus at the time) from the drive connected to it on the second boot. It would switch to boot from other drive. To make it boot from the drive connected to it, I had to shut the Mac down and turn it on again or set the adapter as slave. It worked flawlessly as a slave.

The issue was also described in my reply in this thread:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,6225.msg46635.html#msg46635

If the OP is using a Bribge, I would try replacing it.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: V.Yakob on June 28, 2022, 01:23:55 PM
Is there no such thing as a Mac user group in Russia?
Well...
Apple is very popular in Russia, mostly because of the iPhone, Watch, AirPods, iPad, but in my opinion, there are fewer Mac users.
And I'll say more, I myself sometimes write manuals for Mac on the blog, because there is little information about Mac in Russian, unless it comes to a "checkbox in the settings" or reviews. For example, I configured a pf firewall on Mac, organized a network TimeMachine on Linux with domain user authentication, transparent domain user authentication to Wi-Fi through the Radius server in Logon Window without using Server.app.
As for old Macs, many people know nothing about them, or have seen them only in the movies. For example, in the movie Hackers (1995), the heroes of the film use Mac, and OS, probably System 7.5.
We have more computers on Windows, 20 years ago everyone I knew had Windows, and no one had a Mac.  ::) I know that it was used in designers, printing houses, etc. But not everything is so bad, there is an Apple computer museum in Moscow, there are a lot of things there. You can find photo reports on the Internet, see if you are interested.
And as you can understand, I have never used Mac OS 9 before on a real computer, only on an emulator, which is not effective. I'm interested! I bought this MDD for old games and Mac OS 9.  ;)
I'm new user Mac OS 9. 8) More precisely, I want to be.

I'm sorry for the offtop, but you asked.

And so, I got a video card, flashed it, and it works fine on Mac OS X Tiger. Mac OS 9 continues to show a gray screen. It turns out, the problem is not in the video card. ;D

peeperpc, When I received this computer, there was a native disk (80 GB) with one partition installed OS X Tiger + Classic
Mac OS 9, which was supposed to boot from Classic files did not boot, there was only a gray screen.
The SSD and PATA to SATA adapter appeared later.
Then I bought a basket with 2 250 GB drives that I connected to port ATA/66, I tried to restore to one of these MacOS9Lives.img images from Mac_OS_9_Universal_install.iso using the Tiger disk utility.
If I choose to boot from a disk connected to ATA/66, it looks like this in NVRAM: mac-io/ata-4@1f000/@1f000/@0:10,\\:tbxi
I tried to install 3 different PATA HDDs, 1 SATA HDD through the adapter and 1 SATA SSD through the adapter, used ATA/100 and 2 ATA/66, as well as 4 different PATA cables.
I also tried 2 DVD-ROM drives, 2 ATA/66 ports and 2 PATA cables.
Only sometimes, it is not clear why, Mac OS 9 boots or I see frozen stripes with a floppy disk, or "Happy Mac" appears and the boot freezes. I've been struggling with it for a ~2 month, and I've probably tried everything.

I replaced disks, cables, monitor, RAM, video card, even specially bought a one-button mouse to work in Mac OS 9 -- Nothing helped. I can't be wrong all the time.


The circle is closed, last two option:
1. Accept fate and accept the fact that I can't boot Mac OS 9;
2. Spend $100 on another MDD.

Unfortunately, due to sanctions, I can't buy a motherboard on eBay. :(
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: GaryN on June 28, 2022, 01:57:43 PM
Today I installed a new SSD, divided it into several partitions. Installed 10.4.
Copied the "System Folder" and "Applications (Mac OS 9)" directories from the os9general.dmg package to this section, to no avail
I noticed a strange thing, right after copying, rebooting and holding Opt, I did not see the possibility of loading Mac OS 9, it appears only after rebooting with the choice of Mac OS 9.
Oh jeez… I just went ALL the way back to the beginning and found the above.
It now suddenly looks like this may turn out to be yet another SSD bridge adapter that doesn't do cable select problem.
…and it was right here in front of us all the time?

I've been (mildly) admonished in the past for telling users to spend a few (literally, only a few) extra bucks on the RED StarTech bridge boards because they simply always work and work properly in QS and MDD Macs. I have no idea of the availability of them in Russia but if this turns out to have been the issue all along, it won't surprise me AT ALL.

If necessary, here is a primer on IDE cables and the difference between cable select and plain master/slave ones. It's possible to convert a CS to a M/S to force the recognition of an M/S-only SATA bridge card.
http://unixwiz.net/techtips/ide-cable-select.html

I remember trying to find modern engine parts (hoses etc.) that would work or could be made to work in my 1967 MGB.

     This is not much different at all, and preferable to the Kremlin spyware theory…
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: IIO on June 28, 2022, 06:03:39 PM

 OR a non-cable select cable,

i was thinking about that, too, but didnt say anything because ... how likely is it that someone changes that cable against another one? (and wouldnt OSX also refuse to boot then?)

also, he could fix his problem by simply switching HDDs in that case.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: FBz on June 28, 2022, 06:16:44 PM
“It now suddenly looks like this may turn out to be yet another SSD bridge adapter that doesn't do cable select problem.
…and it was right here in front of us all the time?”


If only it was really that simple. I do really wish.

Vitaly is not using his adapter in conjunction with another drive on the same cable. I often use a single drive and Bribge adapter (jumpered as Master) in MDDs without problem. And I really wasn’t certain that he was using a Bribge, as the link he provided for the adapter - showed two different adapters (one of which was not a Bribge). Then I found another early image he sent and it certainly looks like a Bribge on the last ATA-100 ribbon cable connector - just as I often use. (He’s also tested it set as a Slave.)

      (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6335.0;attach=10279;image)

AND… as Vitaly cannot even get a conventional HD to accept and boot OS 9 (sans any adapter) it doesn’t sound like the adapter and SSD makes any difference anyway. The thing just will not accept, nor boot from OS 9… regardless of his approach. StarTech or Bribge be damned.

Certainly the StarTechs / Addonics are likely best(?) in MDD two-drive scenarios, but performance-wise and in head-to-head comparisons (even in an MDD) the RXD-629A7-7 adapters are nearly as good and for less money. Compare benchmarks here: http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,5436.msg43799.html#msg43799 / Last year the StarTechs / Addonics were $18-$35 each and the RXD’s were right around $10.00. Need to buy more than one and the cost adds up very quickly for a very minor performance boost - IF any at all. (See the benchmarks in link above.)

Then enter the poor lowly Bribge. If it doesn’t cost very much - then it can’t be any good, right? It’s the all around best value, bang-fer-yer-buck in a single drive / ribbon cable use, in an MDD. We had ‘em for cheap last year and still have plenty left. (U.S. orders only.) And lovely in a Quicksilver or G3 B&W.

Bribge vs. StarTech in a G3 B&W….. http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6231.0;attach=9825;image

Other benchmark comparisons (Red vs. Green) in Quicksilvers, Digital Audios and MDDs… are also scattered throughout the forum.
Ain’t no admonishment… just simple facts.

I like Bribges… like I once liked Legos and Lincoln Logs.
      (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6335.0;attach=10281;image)
*Blame the above, Bribge “Quicksilver Hillbilly-Array” on IIO. http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,6327.msg47288.html#msg47288
  And the four-stack “pod” does fit under the Quicksilver’s fan. Some assembly required. Not actual size, etc. ::)



Maybe some day the current political B.S. / war will end and sanctions will be lifted. Then mobos, video cards, SSDs and adapters may again traverse the globe. Until then, perhaps this is all now at the point that Vitaly might consider the Mac OS 9.2.2 For Previously Unsupported G4s because the damned thing acts like a FW800 MDD - why not treat it as one? (Joking and not joking.)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: IIO on June 28, 2022, 06:31:55 PM
hahaha. and good morning.

now that post is true coincidence - where the heck did you got that photo from? ;)

that custom "sidepanel" solution using HDD screws was my temporary end result yesterday after i couldnt find out if a 4-tray metal case for 30-50 dollars will actually fit into a quicksilver CD case.

and i will have to find the fastest adapters you can get for the 2 boot drives. atm all i tried are slower than 70mb/s, which i had with IDE, and it is not acceptable to deteriorate!

(1.board bus= may not be slower than before. 2. sonnet & SSD = for when speed matters. 3.all other connections= speed does not matter for storage.)


Quote
And the four-stack “pod” does fit under the Quicksilver’s fan

mine needs to go on top of CD. i planned mine much lower in the beginning until i noticed that it makes more sense to use small HDDs for those cheap adapters on the ACARD.
Title: V. Yakob Update
Post by: FBz on July 01, 2022, 05:00:53 AM
Yesterday darthnvader suggested that Vitaly run debug on one of his installer CDs and the results were that he was finally capable of getting further into the actual OS 9.2 boot process than ever before. (Needless to say that after all this time, Vitaly was ecstatic!) Only, to be confronted with the following…


(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6335.0;attach=10283;image)  (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6335.0;attach=10285;image)

I've suggested that now, instead of booting with extensions off - he might remove / move “all but the essential” OS 9 extensions to the disabled extensions file folder in his OS 9 partition (via OS X) and then attempt an OS 9 boot. But with the time differences between our locations, it often takes a day to hear back from him.

So that’s where this all is, now.

He has provided a nine minute video of the entire debug process that can be made available to anyone wanting to review it.
Message me and I can provide a link. ;)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: V.Yakob on July 01, 2022, 07:29:45 AM
Yeah!! Yesterday I can't believe my eyes when I rebooted MDD several times, and every time I saw an unsuccessful attempt to start Mac OS 9. I've probably never been happy about errors before. ;D

I don't know how, but turning on debug mode helped to boot Mac OS 9 in OpenFirmware:
Code: [Select]
dev /
13fff encode-int " AAPL,debug" property
boot cd:,\\:tbxi
A universal community disk was inserted into the CD-Drive.

Today, again, only a gray screen. I started boot from Debug mode ~7 times, but Mac OS 9 did not boot, only this damn gray screen.

GaryN, you're probably right, need to send this MDD to Romania, to the gypsies, so that they remove all the curses from him.  ;D
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: IIO on July 01, 2022, 03:33:18 PM
if you get a "bus error" from a fresh OS9 install then something is wrong with some hardware.

if it is not the graphics card the next i would check is if the preowner maybe broke the power of the USB ports.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: GaryN on July 01, 2022, 03:34:58 PM
CLUES???

1.  Way back when, you mentioned you were running PC3200 RAM. Some asshat told you "Don't worry, it will just run at PC2700 speed".

2.  From the beginning of Macintosh time, a "bus error" has (mostly) meant the system tried to access memory that wasn't there. THAT usually meant a defective RAM stick or bad RAM slot or something related to RAM.

It would seem like a good idea (to me at least) to track down and try some proper PC2700 RAM. I have no idea if that's easy or impossible for you at this time but if you can, I think it might be a good idea. Yes, on the surface it seems unlikely that this is the problem since OSX boots without issue, BUT:

OS9 may perform a memory test at startup. Perhaps it's hanging there because it's never before seen PC3200 RAM.

This "feature" can be turned on and off but unfortunately, you have to already be in OS9 to access the Memory Control Panel and, well……
If you had another OS9-capable machine you could check the test status in the System you're trying to boot and ensure that it's off but you don't and you probably ought to have PC-2700 in there anyway and, and……

Wait!! I have yet another idea!   Please don't ask why it took this long for anybody to think of this

1. Attempt to boot OS9.
2. Immediately after the initial chime, while holding your phone or other image-capture device in one hand, press and hold Command-V with the other to invoke Verbose Mode.
3. Text will scroll up the screen as the system starts and will stop when the boot hangs. Take a pic of the text and post it. It MAY offer a real clue as to what's going wrong.
4. If the text disappears first and the screen goes gray, get pics of all you can before the text goes away.
5. Post them it/them here and cross your fingers…


Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: V.Yakob on July 04, 2022, 05:50:38 AM
The theory is unlikely, since the frequency from 400 to 333 should be lowered by the motherboard when primary initialization is performed. I checked your theory with the question "What if he's right?"
I have several PC2700 RAM sticks and installed 2x256 mb. Yes, you're right, finding such a memory, 4*512 PC2700 is not easy, and sometimes very expensive.

I started MDD and held ⌘+V. Most likely, in Mac OS 9 it is not a protocol mode, as in OS X, but a network boot... A flashing globe appears.

(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6335.0;attach=10290;image)

I opened a new topic (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=6391.msg47849#msg47849) on booting debugging.



Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: GaryN on July 04, 2022, 03:09:12 PM
I hoped that the OS9 memory check was activated and hanging because of the 3300 RAM. Especially when the almost-boot showed "bus error".
Oh well…

As for verbose mode, much (all?) of it is a log of the UNIX kernel coming up but I hoped (there's that word again) possibly some little thing from firmware or ? might display first.
Oh well…

This is where (no, actually we were here long ago) I would be trying a different motherboard. Yes, I know they don't exactly grow on trees there. At this point however, if you can actually find another MDD, The purchase can be justified as acquiring some spare parts.

I am otherwise (and I really hate to admit it) totally out of ideas…
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: vad12 on July 04, 2022, 04:24:12 PM
If you can burn cds and have access to macintosh repository, you can try the Apple diagnostics tools they have hosted there. One of them should be optimized for MDDs, I'm just not sure which. Those are supposed to be the "official" hardware diagnostics tools for Apple machines. macintosh garden probably has those CD images too.

I have a Sawtooth with a busted DVD drive, so I haven't had first-hand experience with those tools and can't say much more about them.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: IIO on July 04, 2022, 05:49:18 PM
The theory is unlikely

if you get a bus error, it can be any bus, including RAM. (until we know better ;) )

RAM, USB, IDE, PCI and AGP cards are in my opinion the most interesting things to look at (a malfunctioning speaker or bluetooth device should not interfere with booting)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: V.Yakob on October 18, 2022, 02:35:33 AM
Hello friends! I haven't written on the topic in a long time, but I'm back. :)

So, I bought another exactly the same PowerMac G4 MDD (2003), Single 1.25 MHz. And I checked all previous attempts to run Mac OS 9 on it - they are successful! It works! That is, I did everything right from the very beginning.

Everything works on this PM without any problems.
After washing, I started comparing these two computers to understand how they differ.
I changed the components one at a time and had no positive result until I changed the processors.
After I swapped the processors, the new computer stopped starting Mac OS 9 (yes, gray screen), and the old computer began to start Mac OS 9 without problems.
I swapped them again and the situation was the opposite, the new computer starts, and the old one is not again.
Obviously, it's a problem with the processor.
Processors are really different. I added several photos to the archive.

Mac OS 9 won't boot -- XC7455B RX1250DF (84L64M, QEU0313C), Samsung 337 K7D403671B-HC30, 820-1497-A, 94V-0 343P
Mac OS 9 boot -- XC7455B RX1250EF (34L64M, QGG0340D), Samsung 440 K7D403671B-HC30, 820-1497-A, 94V-0 423T

How can this be? The XC7455B RX1250DF (84L64M) processor is working properly, it passes all mathematical tests, OS X (10.2-10.5) works properly on it. Bad revision?
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: FBz on October 18, 2022, 08:50:52 AM
Hey Vitaly! Hello.

(Not forgotten.)

Congratulations on finally getting the thing to boot with a different CPU. One would think that with what appears to be an earlier, alpha-numeric sequential manufacture date of the RX1250DF (J5338 vs. J5344 of the RX1250EF) that there would be no trouble booting OS 9 with the DF CPU unless of course it is just faulty. AND the DF chip also appears brand new (especially considering the white surround of the die itself). No heat trace from extended use?

(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6335.0;attach=10867;image)

I considered that it (the DF) might be a CPU from a later MDD FW800 (more than once) but even that should have booted OS 9 - IF it were placed on an earlier FW400 MOBO (as has been done here often).

(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6335.0;attach=10869;image)

I am afraid that we still have a mystery, but relieved that it will now boot OS 9 with the RX1250EF.

Should such a time ever occur that mail is once again permitted between our two countries, I shall send you another working MDD CPU. In the meantime, congrats on being able to boot and run OS 9 on your mysterious MDD!

*I’d still check, double-check and re-check ALL of those pins on the back of that daughtercard. That DF just doesn’t look as if it’s ever been used extensively / completely. ;)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: V.Yakob on October 18, 2022, 10:18:50 AM
Hey, FBz!!

No heat trace from extended use?

Nope, he looks great. I also tried to  cleaned up the contact group with compressed air to get rid of dust that could interfere with normal contact.

I considered that it (the DF) might be a CPU from a later MDD FW800 (more than once) but even that should have booted OS 9 - IF it were placed on an earlier FW400 MOBO (as has been done here often).
I checked -- FW800 was not released with a single 1.25GHz CPU.

*I’d still check, double-check and re-check ALL of those pins on the back of that daughtercard. That DF just doesn’t look as if it’s ever been used extensively / completely. ;)

I've probably checked everything 5 times already, 100% The problem is repeated on each MDDs.
XC7455B RX1250DF -- Mac OS 9 won't boot (grey screen only)
XC7455B RX1250EF -- Mac OS 9 is boot

With the fact that I ran all the tests I could find, "RX1250DF" worked fine. If you remember, I tried OS X (10.2-10.5) and even Linux Debian built for 32-bit PPC, the processor has never failed.

I have only one consideration left - the revision problem.

I'll try to sell one of these MDDs, I'll buy another daughtercard: DP 867 MHz. At our flea market, I found only one for little money.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: FBz on October 18, 2022, 10:32:58 AM

I checked -- FW800 was not released with a single 1.25GHz CPU.

Ahh, you are correct my friend.
My current, COVID-addled brain confused this with the 1.0 GHz SP FW800 MDD. ::)

Perhaps someone else has a better explanation?

**One last thing…
- IF you are completely convinced that it will not work and have tried everything else, you might try lightly brushing all of those contacts with distilled white vinegar to remove any tarnish or oxidation that might not be visible to the naked eye. I wouldn’t leave the vinegar on there for very long and might try it a couple of times between rinses with clear distilled water. Then after ample drying time… try the CPU one last time. ;)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: peeperpc on October 18, 2022, 10:57:47 AM


I have only one consideration left - the revision problem.



Agreed, the first one might have the processor replaced and it's not fully compatible with the logic board.

As it is mentioned in the Powermac G4 repair manual that ,for some revisions of logic boards, when the processor is defective, you need to replace both the processor and the board with a whole new set from Apple, not just the processor. The reasons probably were compatibility issues and Apple no longer had the right processors for those revisions of the boards in stock.

PS: Well, if the logic boards in both of them turn out to have the same revision number (820-xxxx), this would go back to a mysterious case.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: V.Yakob on October 18, 2022, 02:19:24 PM
you might try lightly brushing all of those contacts with distilled white vinegar to remove any tarnish or oxidation that might not be visible to the naked eye.
I used 90% alcohol (medical) and cotton pad.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: FBz on October 18, 2022, 05:56:54 PM
The vinegar has acetic acid and will "cut" tarnish and oxidation, whereas the alcohol is less likely to do so.

Place a copper coin or copper wire in some vinegar overnight and see how shiny & clean they are next morning.

No scrubbing or friction necessary. Worth a shot on a CPU that has been so problematic thus far.

AND the following from ervus over on MacRumors, just now...

(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6335.0;attach=10877;image)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: refinery on October 19, 2022, 07:14:51 PM
in 20 years since these machines came out i have -never- heard of a processor having a compatibility issue with OS9. We've gotten newer processors to work with OS9 boot, there's no reasonable explanation why some small subset of processors would have an issue... and that would also wreak havoc on Apple support having to maintain two distinct stocks of processors for warranty replacements back then, etc.,  It just makes no sense.
Neither does the RAM issue. 3200 Ram works fine. I have been using 1GB 3200 DDR sticks in my MDD machines for years, never had a problem.
i'd have to guess there is something really obscure that is wrong with that one processor. maybe a ROM version mismatch.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: robespierre on October 20, 2022, 07:12:12 AM
Or... there is some processor feature(s) used by OS9 that are not used by OSX. Block address translation regs? I guess it's possible they could have developed a defect.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: V.Yakob on October 30, 2022, 07:26:06 AM
I'll try to sell one of these MDDs, I'll buy another daughtercard: DP 867 MHz. At our flea market, I found only one for little money.

So, I managed to buy a DP 867 MHz daughtercard for only $20 with delivery, and expected Mac OS 9 is working fine.

XPC7455 RX933PC (91L96C, DQR0220), Samsung 226 K7D403671B-HC25, 820-1310-A, 94V-0 242P


To sum up this long topic:

Processors work properly on Mac OS 9 and Mac OS X

1250 MHz x1 -- XC7455B RX1250EF (34L64M, QGG0340D), Samsung 440 K7D403671B-HC30, 820-1497-A, 94V-0 423T
867 MHz x2  -- XPC7455 RX933PC (91L96C, DQR0220), Samsung 226 K7D403671B-HC25, 820-1310-A, 94V-0 242P


The processor works properly in Mac OS X, but Mac OS 9 cannot work properly. Sometimes Mac OS 9 boots (sometimes freezes, sometimes works fine), but in most cases only a gray screen.

1250 MHz x1 -- XC7455B RX1250DF (84L64M, QEU0313C), Samsung 337 K7D403671B-HC30, 820-1497-A, 94V-0 343P

The reasons for this behavior remain unclear, and it is most likely impossible to find out.

Thanks all for help in solving this strange problem!  ;)


P.S.
A problem processor must be put in a frame and hang on the wall.  ;D
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: GaryN on October 30, 2022, 01:49:03 PM
I still suspect the FSB…  :P
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: FBz on October 31, 2022, 08:14:15 AM
Given that today is Halloween (even if Russians do not celebrate it) perhaps rather than framing and wall-hanging this thing… I’d suggest the use of a propane or acetylene torch to burn it to a complete & total crisp… AND then bury it deep within the earth. (During a full moon?)

OR perhaps... instead:
After burning it sufficiently… then attach the remains to a wooden stick / tree branch, to then be waived (as a talisman) over any other troublesome Mac or particularly troublesome Mac part. This may serve to drive any malevolent (bad ju-ju) spirits from any future problematic machines or machine parts.

A few of us have invested many hours of thought into this thing, so it may now have some other, thus-accumulated symbolic psychic power?

I think the damned thing is cursed. :P

Boo, y’all.

Big congrats to Vitaly!
Long may his DP 867 MHz MDD serve him well.
(Nice price too!)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 can't booting, grey screen only
Post by: DieHard on October 31, 2022, 10:04:51 AM
OK... so apparently we are seeing things in 2022 that we have never seen before...

1st:  The famous 1.25 Dual that only ran at 917Mhz.
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,6443.msg48360.html#msg48360

2nd: Now the 1.25 that hates OS9

Since Mactron and I have literally tested many dozens of MDD daughterboards over the years, and even throwing Xserve CPUs in MDDs without issue, I don't think it is a "rev" of the CPU that is causing the issue of "Not Booting or OS 9", I think more likely, our precious MDD CPU daughter boards are getting old, just like me, and are starting to have "health" issues after 20 years.  We have already proven, that old macs can die a total death or start to produce some strange anomalies and decide to "work, but not as expected"

It makes sense that heat kills; micro-cracks and transistor failure on a microscopic level will continue to plague our CPU daughterboards.  Just because we cannot recognize or pinpoint the CPU feature that "OS 9 needs" as opposed to what "OS X Needs" does not mean it doesn't exist and perhaps that "feature" is going bad.  That fact that OS 9 has booted and then froze supports the argument that we have intermittent electronic failure and NOT a missing feature from this particular CPU revision, otherwise, it would be more consistent and just never attempt it.

At this point, I usually stick to a rule with Old PPC hardware.  If the part displays intermittent issues, and I cannot fix it on a component level, then it gets trashed immediately. In the old days, I made a terrible habit of re-shelving parts and forgetting to label them "maybe bad" and hoping God would fix it, or it would fix itself, only to re-use it months later and get bit in the ass all over again. Now, those parts get a dirt nap, or a label if they are rare, but it is done immediately.  If a labeled part displays the same or a different issue at a later time, there is no third strike, it gets tossed.

In other words, I personally would not use this CPU in OS X, even if it appeared to work correctly.  If I was on a serious budget, then I would run the Mac MDD diagnostics in "extended" mode at least 2 times (even if that took several hours) before I would rely of this computer for anything of importance.  I would not want to be in a position of loosing work/time on something that is not reliable. You did the right thing and bought a different CPU.  I think we all got analysis paralysis on this one so I think in the future, we better go with our gut... swap out memory, then duaghterboard, then logic board, all while testing with the diagnostic CD.
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