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Figgy2112

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iMac G3 booting OS X, but not 9 from SSD
« on: June 23, 2024, 05:43:36 PM »

Hello, New Here, I recently acquired a iMac G3 Summer 2001, 600 MHz model that I was able to restore and I upgraded the ram to 512 MB and put a 128 GB SSD in there with a kingwin adapter, I was able to install 10.4 tiger on there fine and got stuff running and I previously was running 9.2.2 off a old IDE drive I had (drive that came with it was dead) and I transferred the files over to the SSD so I could use startup disc but every time I try to do it with macOS and it seems it fails to recognize it and I tried to manually install macOS nine and It can’t see the drive so is there anyway I can hack it to see the SSD? Kinda like xpostfacto but in reverse. Strange thing is I restored over the image at one point and the Mac recognized there was a bootable mas os 9 drive but it seems macOS nine just doesn’t like it. I tried Classic Environment and it runs horribly. If I can’t find anything, I’ll probably just get like a firewire drive and it use it externally but I would really like to get X and 9 dual booting off an SSD
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aBc

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Re: iMac G3 booting OS X, but not 9 from SSD
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2024, 07:52:02 PM »

Some of those G3 iMacs required OS 9 to be installed
and resident upon the first 8 GB partition of the drive.

And your problem might actually stem from not
checking that “Install OS 9 drivers” box in Tiger’s Disk
Utility… if you used that to format and partition your
SSD. If this is the case, you might try again to use
Tiger’s Disk Utility to reformat and partition the SSD,
making certain to check that box… to see if an OS 9
installer would then recognize the SSD for an OS 9
installation.

If that doesn’t work, then…

If you’ve another machine that you can format and
partition your SSD in (outside of your iMac) then you
might try that… multi-partitioning the SSD with the first
8 GB partition for OS 9 and maybe the rest for Tiger.

I have done this before using 4 partitions; one 8 GB
for OS 9, one vacant for OS 9 file writes, then one for
Tiger and the remainder for Tiger file writes. You
determine what size you prefer the other partitions to
be (and how many). BUT using OS 9’s Drive Setup
1.9.2 or 2.1 from whatever OS 9 installer you choose,
first to format and partition the entire SSD before
placing it back in the iMac.

And as a possible further complication… when
installing Tiger (or immediately during, or before
reboot) be certain to exclude Spotlight (from System
Preferences > Spotlight > Privacy) to restrict Spotlight
from ever accessing your OS 9 partition or the OS 9
file write partition in order to avoid the ever-common
BTree error corruption associated with not taking this
step.

Also, under Tiger System Prefs > Classic… I always
check the box “Warn before starting Classic” as I
never run “Classic”. If I want to run OS 9 or OS 9 apps,
I boot into OS 9. (Just as I drag files from OS 9 to OS
X - but never the inverse.)

Good luck!  YMMV ;)
And welcome to the Forum!
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Figgy2112

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Re: iMac G3 booting OS X, but not 9 from SSD
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2024, 09:00:28 PM »


I did check the install Mac OS 9 drivers when I formated out of the drive and it is one of the later models that doesn’t require the 8 GB at the front, the issues is that no matter what I do, macOS nine straight up doesn’t see the drive on any of the buses at all
« Last Edit: June 23, 2024, 10:03:35 PM by aBc »
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aBc

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Re: iMac G3 booting OS X, but not 9 from SSD
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2024, 10:01:22 PM »

Well then…

As that machine reportedly shipped originally with OS 9.1? / you might try an OS 9.1 install disc OR the (7) disc, Restore set from Macintosh Repository (which notes OS 9.2 for the 500 MHz model?). https://www.macintoshrepository.org/16935-mac-os-9-2-x-10-0-4-imac-g3-500-summer-2001-

OR the same set from Macintosh Gardens:
https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/apple-imac-g3500-summer-2001-indigosnow-original-software-media-set

Of course, downloading and burning only the first disc from either set might help to determine IF they would even recognize the SSD partition BEFORE downloading and burning them all.

I’m thinking that formatting and partitioning first with Tiger - may have something to do with it not being recognized… box checked or not.

Then there’s the FireWire option as well.

As in: installing a bootable version of OS 9 on an external FireWire drive to then see if the partition (on the SSD in the iMac) would be recognized from that approach (when booted from the FireWire drive).

Then if all the above still fails… remove the SSD and reformat & partition in another Mac, installing OS 9 first, then Tiger, etcetera.
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Figgy2112

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Re: iMac G3 booting OS X, but not 9 from SSD
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2024, 10:23:47 PM »

Well then…

As that machine reportedly shipped originally with OS 9.1? / you might try an OS 9.1 install disc OR the (7) disc, Restore set from Macintosh Repository (which notes OS 9.2 for the 500 MHz model?). https://www.macintoshrepository.org/16935-mac-os-9-2-x-10-0-4-imac-g3-500-summer-2001-

OR the same set from Macintosh Gardens:
https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/apple-imac-g3500-summer-2001-indigosnow-original-software-media-set

Of course, downloading and burning only the first disc from either set might help to determine IF they would even recognize the SSD partition BEFORE downloading and burning them all.

I’m thinking that formatting and partitioning first with Tiger - may have something to do with it not being recognized… box checked or not.

Then there’s the FireWire option as well.

As in: installing a bootable version of OS 9 on an external FireWire drive to then see if the partition (on the SSD in the iMac) would be recognized from that approach (when booted from the FireWire drive).

Then if all the above still fails… remove the SSD and reformat & partition in another Mac, installing OS 9 first, then Tiger, etcetera.

I found an old firewire 800 External Drive that I’ll get an 800 to 400 cable for and run it off that, I literally have tried everything, changing the jumper around going through five different hard drives, different partition schemes and nothing in 9 would recognize at all, I even tried different versions of 9 and it still didn't work, also probably would’ve shipped with I think 10.0/.1 and 9.2.2 at that point (summer 2001, but it was the last released version and was in production until 03)
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Figgy2112

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Re: iMac G3 booting OS X, but not 9 from SSD
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2024, 02:34:35 PM »

Was able to get adapter cable for that FireWire drive and I created a partition and installed macOS nine to it, but the machine isn’t allowing me to boot off it, it never shows up if I try to do the boot menu and if I try start up disk in tiger which it recognizes as a bootable Mac OS 9 drive , it just throws the blinking folder screen, is there anything I need to do other than that because I was pretty sure that’s all I need to do. I created a partition that was under 160 gigs and installed it. whats keeping it from recognizing it as a bootable medium in the boot menu
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ssp3

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Re: iMac G3 booting OS X, but not 9 from SSD
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2024, 03:07:40 PM »

whats keeping it from recognizing it as a bootable medium in the boot menu

It could be anything.
Enclosure. FW to SATA or to ATA?
The chipset used.
Firmware.
The drive itself.

I have a ton of external FW (to SATA) enclosures but only a few of them can boot OS9.
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Figgy2112

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Re: iMac G3 booting OS X, but not 9 from SSD
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2024, 03:33:38 PM »

whats keeping it from recognizing it as a bootable medium in the boot menu

It could be anything.
Enclosure. FW to SATA or to ATA?
The chipset used.
Firmware.
The drive itself.

I have a ton of external FW (to SATA) enclosures but only a few of them can boot OS9.

It’s a sata to fw I think, but macOS nine clearly recognized it on the installer CD, Is there any open firmware trickery I can do to get it to try to boot, also, another weird issue I’m starting to have is it will boot up fine but not chime
« Last Edit: June 26, 2024, 03:55:42 PM by Figgy2112 »
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aBc

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Re: iMac G3 booting OS X, but not 9 from SSD
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2024, 04:21:23 PM »

Ummm, maybe try a partition less than 128 GB? (Not 160 GB - for an iMac G3 / bootable.)

It might be an iMac that doesn’t require OS 9 being installed on the first 8 GB but there is that 128 GB limit, yes - no?

AND ssp3 is correct… some FW drives will work, some will not.

And for external FW drives paired with OS 9 machines “we” sorta (rule-of-thumb) use Drive Setup 1.9.2 to format and partition external FW drives. That just seems to work the best.

AND I downloaded the first installer disc image for the G3 iMac 500 GHz / 691-3176-A (Summer) and found that it comes with Drive Setup 2.0.7 (created April 2nd 2001). So there’s something else to consider if you want to completely start over, downloading, burning and  installing from the original iMac restore discs (if the first one) will even recognize the SSD in the iMac.

AND, AND… the machine itself “might” require the Firmware Update too?

AS far as “open firmware trickery”…. some O-F command similar to the boot cd:,\\:tbxi (like that one used for CDs) could be used perhaps AFTER reformatting and partitioning the drive with a partition of say, 120 GB or less. See: http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=6973.msg53492#msg53492

For even more possible helpful info… check out our own “comrade extraordinaire” Greystash’s “iMac G3 Dual Bootable SSD Setup” page here: https://mac-classic.com/articles/imac-g3-dual-bootable-ssd-setup/

Oh boy, more good luck wishes to you.

And, maybe fill us in on your specific FireWire drive? Self powered (I hope)?
*Think I'd try the reformat of the FW drive first and reinstall OS 9 on that... and then try, try again.

(Not using Disk Utility from Tiger.) ;)
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Figgy2112

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Re: iMac G3 booting OS X, but not 9 from SSD
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2024, 04:47:30 PM »

Ummm, maybe try a partition less than 128 GB? (Not 160 GB - for an iMac G3 / bootable.)

It might be an iMac that doesn’t require OS 9 being installed on the first 8 GB but there is that 128 GB limit, yes - no?

AND ssp3 is correct… some FW drives will work, some will not.

And for external FW drives paired with OS 9 machines “we” sorta (rule-of-thumb) use Drive Setup 1.9.2 to format and partition external FW drives. That just seems to work the best.

AND I downloaded the first installer disc image for the G3 iMac 500 GHz / 691-3176-A (Summer) and found that it comes with Drive Setup 2.0.7 (created April 2nd 2001). So there’s something else to consider if you want to completely start over, downloading, burning and  installing from the original iMac restore discs (if the first one) will even recognize the SSD in the iMac.

AND, AND… the machine itself “might” require the Firmware Update too?

AS far as “open firmware trickery”…. some O-F command similar to the boot cd:,\\:tbxi (like that one used for CDs) could be used perhaps AFTER reformatting and partitioning the drive with a partition of say, 120 GB or less. See: http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=6973.msg53492#msg53492

For even more possible helpful info… check out our own “comrade extraordinaire” Greystash’s “iMac G3 Dual Bootable SSD Setup” page here: https://mac-classic.com/articles/imac-g3-dual-bootable-ssd-setup/

Oh boy, more good luck wishes to you.

And, maybe fill us in on your specific FireWire drive? Self powered (I hope)?
*Think I'd try the reformat of the FW drive first and reinstall OS 9 on that... and then try, try again.

(Not using Disk Utility from Tiger.) ;)


Hi, The iMac in question is a summer 2001 600 MHz model, which is one of the ones that doesn’t require the eight gigs at the start of the partition, updated to the latest firmware 4.1.9, the SSD in there I’ve never been able to get working in macOS nine it just refuses to see it, I was using the 9.2.2 2002 Universal CD for the internal drive Im using a kingwin sata with master jumper pins to ide adapter with a patriot 128GB SSD, The firewire drive is some random WD Drive found in a box that has firewire 800, I got a converter cable, I opened it up and The drive seems to be some 500 GB Sata Drive and the partition I made was like 120 to 128, I tried to reformat it in macOS nine, but it seem to say not supported, I also tried restoring the partition with a previous image of an IDE drive that I had in that iMac
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ssp3

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Re: iMac G3 booting OS X, but not 9 from SSD
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2024, 05:10:37 PM »

..The firewire drive is some random WD Drive found in a box that has firewire 800..

There are no "random" WD drives (enclosures). ;) So, which one exactly is it? WD My Book ___ ?
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Figgy2112

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Re: iMac G3 booting OS X, but not 9 from SSD
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2024, 05:16:58 PM »

..The firewire drive is some random WD Drive found in a box that has firewire 800..

There are no "random" WD drives (enclosures). ;) So, which one exactly is it? WD My Book ___ ?

Yeah, it is, sorry, I forgot what it was for a second but I remember it saying my book now, The reason I was so confused is it didn’t have indication to what the drive was on it. It just had like a serial number.
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ssp3

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Re: iMac G3 booting OS X, but not 9 from SSD
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2024, 05:58:07 PM »

If its not written anywhere on the enclosure, google 'My Book' and 'My Book Studio' for pictures and link one one or two here.
Front and back.
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Figgy2112

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Re: iMac G3 booting OS X, but not 9 from SSD
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2024, 06:05:04 PM »

It seems to be a Western Digital My Book Home 500GB USB 2.0/FireWire/eSATA 3.5" External HDD, A lot of the ones you see are black but this one has like a Silver aluminum finish
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aBc

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Re: iMac G3 booting OS X, but not 9 from SSD
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2024, 06:05:18 PM »

Yes, I remember you having the 600 MHz - but as I can only (so far) find that 500 MHz Restore set. I’d have to check that 4.1.9 firmware / but that sounds about right for not needing the G3 Firmware Updater.

As far as the iMac not seeing the SSD… again perhaps, follow Graystash’s approach of doing your installs to the SSD in another machine? As for the WD FireWire drive - I forget what they call them but it’s something like “My HD / Passport” etc. and if it’s that sort of thing… they use their own proprietary drivers, which might explain why you can’t effectively format it with OS 9 or boot from OS 9. [Which also brings us back to what ssp3 mentioned.] They’re okay for storage (but even that’s somewhat questionable) so I’d definitely write it off as an non-OS 9 boot device.

Try installing Tiger on it to see if you can boot from that… if you want to test the theory further.

Oh… one more thing. When you first formatted and partitioned the SSD in the iMac using Disk Utility (Tiger)… what Volume Format did you choose? If you didn’t use “Mac OS Standard” Go back and do it again on the installed SSD. (Here’s a USB example.)





And maybe I’m “superstitious” (or gun shy) but restoring from a previous image of any other drive is always a bit “iffy” for me anyway… even if it is an “OS 9 friendly” bootable drive.

Now at this point I might be willing to “build” you an SSD with OS 9 and Tiger pre-installed, for you to try. (Anything to keep from having to drag downstairs and then lift a G3 iMac here up on my workbench.) So if you’d like to try the Restore Set route OR anything else that we’ve discussed beforehand - do so. But if you’d like a pre-fabbed SSD, PM me your address specs and I can maybe get one in the mail to you before this weekend. (Easier for me, as opposed to me downloading and using the Restore Set here.) ;)
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ssp3

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Re: iMac G3 booting OS X, but not 9 from SSD
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2024, 06:11:21 PM »

It seems to be a Western Digital My Book Home 500GB USB 2.0/FireWire/eSATA 3.5" External HDD, A lot of the ones you see are black but this one has like a Silver aluminum finish

My Book Home are all black. If it's silver, then it must be My Book Studio. 4 different models exist.

This one?
https://www.newegg.com/model-wdh1q10000n-1tb-external/p/N82E16822136184
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Figgy2112

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Re: iMac G3 booting OS X, but not 9 from SSD
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2024, 06:30:18 PM »

It seems to be a Western Digital My Book Home 500GB USB 2.0/FireWire/eSATA 3.5" External HDD, A lot of the ones you see are black but this one has like a Silver aluminum finish

My Book Home are all black. If it's silver, then it must be My Book Studio. 4 different models exist.

This one?
https://www.newegg.com/model-wdh1q10000n-1tb-external/p/N82E16822136184


Yep that’s it just 500gb instead of the one terabyte on that listing, also, my Mac doesn’t seem to start up chime anymore, but everything else seems fine, The speakers were blown. I’m running it through external ones but I’m just wondering if maybe I hit something, usually when people have that issue there’s other things like it not booting properly or anything, but it literally works perfectly fine except for that, i’ve also been running a fan behind it the entire time so the board doesn’t fry itself
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ssp3

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Re: iMac G3 booting OS X, but not 9 from SSD
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2024, 06:37:54 PM »

Ok, that's the first generation My Book Studio. I have 3 of those.

It is not OS9 bootable.
It is fine as external storage in OS9.
It does not recognize non WD 3.5" drives, IIRC.
It does not recognize drives larger than 2 TB.
It does not recognize any 2.5" drive.
It recognizes and works fine with any SSD drive. (I've tested SSDs up to 500GB)


P.S. Your Kingwin adapter might be the problem too. Search for posts by (S)ATAman about badly designed SATA to IDE adapters. According to him, narrow adapters were OK, whereas tall ones with two thru hole capacitors on PCB were not.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2024, 06:57:25 PM by ssp3 »
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Figgy2112

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Re: iMac G3 booting OS X, but not 9 from SSD
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2024, 06:50:37 PM »

Ok, that's the first generation My Book Studio. I have 3 of those.

It is not OS9 bootable.
It is fine as external storage in OS9.
It does not recognize non WD 3.5" drives, IIRC.
It does not recognize drives larger than 2 TB.
It does not recognize any 2.5" drive.
It recognizes and works fine with any SSD drive. (I've tested SSDs up to 500GB)

Ahh ok so I’m pretty much out of luck, is there any possible way I can get it to trick into Recognizing the SSD
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ssp3

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Re: iMac G3 booting OS X, but not 9 from SSD
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2024, 06:59:15 PM »

You're lucky that you didn't get any of the 2nd generation My Book Studios. Those are "transparently" encrypted by default and user can't do anything about it.

Q1. What brand of SSD?
Q2. What other Mac or Win machines do you have?
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