Mac OS 9 Lives
Digital Audio Workstation & MIDI => Digital Audio Workstations & MIDI Applications => Sampler Software, Sample CDs, & Sample Libaries => Topic started by: Protools5LEGuy on November 05, 2014, 06:27:33 AM
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For me the best should be EXS24 for the number of voicesvsCPU wasted, but the own libraries coming from Kontakt and for SampleTank make me choose them too.
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EXS24! :)
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The worst scenario I've found using a sampler is to writing syphonic & choirs music, where a lot of instruments and articulations are needed. The CPU and RAM of the best Mac Os 9 computer easily are maxed out.
With other music genres, all of the above samplers can do the job.
I have never tried MachFive, but based on others UVI engine ROMplers, probably is a very good sampler ...
The couple of Kontakt/Kompakt is far away from the others samplers I know. The conditionals layers and independent groups, allow Round Robin percussion, Key Switch articulations and to edit and modding different parts of an instrument independent of each others parts. The powerful effects unit that include a advanced capabilities of modulation and filtering, even a parametric equalization...
Some of the sampler parameter can be controlled by discrete curves. And the ability of importing a lot of format including Halion, EXS, GIG etc... and launch an instrument just selecting it from a menu list... etc...
Halion is my next choice. Even though is less capable than Kontakt/Kompakt, it is real winner in hard conditions thanks to its Direct from disk technology and low CPU requirements.
I don't like any Propellerheads software at all, so nothing about NN-19 or NN-XT.
And In my opinion EXS just can do the job if it is simple... and Sampletank is just a toy.
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The couple of Kontakt/Kompakt is far away from the others samplers I know.
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And the ability of importing a lot of format including Halion, EXS, GIG etc... and launch an instrument just selecting it from a menu list... etc...
Yes, Kontakt seem as the more powerful format'wise, and it seem the one that have more advances libraries dedicated to it, but also seems as the more CPU cycles eater...
But for me Kontatk is far superior only after the 3/4 versions (OSX). The sampletank library offers are superior to Halion in "This library is for sampletank", "this is for EXS" "This is for @@@
[youtube]Rh5spZrzu6c[/youtube]
On 1:45:10 the OS9hater/NeXTfanboy presents Gerhard Lengeling, cofounder of eMagic(Apple company at that time) and he talks at 1:46:10 that the sampler from Logic (EXS24) is able to play more than 1000 24 bits stereo voices(poliphony ?) on a G5, and this fact took me to the question: Would a high end G4 at least be able to play 250 stereo voices? I guess they can, but only with EXS24...
Why I said 250 instead of 500 or 1000? I think the 64 bits of the G5 vs the 32 bit G4 is the reason to say half, and the clock speed, combined with the bus speed/memory bandwidth . So lets stick to 250 voices g4'able.
Offtopic: See a tune from BT on CubasePCvsLogicG5 at 1:50:12
Other question is, given a particular soundfont/AKAY/refill, what is the sampler that consumes less cpu cycles. There I think EXS24/EXSP24 is the winner.
Diehard is a HALion lover, MacTron an KonTakt lover and Knezzen is a EXS24 lover. Can any of you prove that with a given "universal" soundfont/Akay yours is superior?
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Yes, Kontakt seem as the more powerful format'wise, and it seem the one that have more advances libraries dedicated to it, but also seems as the more CPU cycles eater...
Yes it is, But the Kompakt is "twice fast" and have the same Kontakt engine and advanced capabilities, just less edition interface...
But for me Kontatk is far superior only after the 3/4 versions (OSX).
No at all. Kompakt/kontakt is far superior in Mac Os 9 versions already. Just Halion can be compared thanks to his DFD and CPU usage.
The sampletank library offers are superior to Halion in "This library is for sampletank", "this is for EXS" "This is for @@@
The best libraries are for Kompakt/Kontakt. I newer know a good library for Sampletank. If you know any good Symphonic, Choir,Battery, Horns, Guitars library for it, just let me know :)
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On 1:45:10 the OS9hater/NeXTfanboy presents Gerhard Lengeling, cofounder of eMagic(Apple company at that time) and he talks at 1:46:10 that the sampler from Logic (EXS24) is able to play more than 1000 24 bits stereo voices(poliphony ?) on a G5, and this fact took me to the question: Would a high end G4 at least be able to play 250 stereo voices? I guess they can, but only with EXS24...
Why I said 250 instead of 500 or 1000? I think the 64 bits of the G5 vs the 32 bit G4 is the reason to say half, and the clock speed, combined with the bus speed/memory bandwidth . So lets stick to 250 voices g4'able.
Offtopic: See a tune from BT on CubasePCvsLogicG5 at 1:50:12
Other question is, given a particular soundfont/AKAY/refill, what is the sampler that consumes less cpu cycles. There I think EXS24/EXSP24 is the winner.
This is more complex than measuring poliphony alone. We can have a very amount of polyphony even with the worst sampler, just playing a simple "beep". LOL
The main thing is the relationship between polyphony and the amount of instruments, ie CPU and RAM (and DFD).
Diehard is a HALion lover, MacTron an KonTakt lover and Knezzen is a EXS24 lover. Can any of you prove that with a given "universal" soundfont/Akay yours is superior?
This happens a lot around here... LOL
I have done this test already with VSL in gigasampler format. I've posted the results:
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The first option will be Logic with EXS24 but we have to left it aside due Logic (and EXS24) bad RAM management. Running the EXSP24 as a VST in Cubase 5 led to a even worst results: Cubase "automatically" eats all the System RAM until the whole system crash...
With Kontakt 1.5 as a VST in Cubase the things go better. But even this being the more powerful Sampler you can run on Mac Os 9, it takes a lot of CPU and this limits the poliphony to a unuseful level...
His "little" broder Kompakt became a real solution for this library. It is faster(near to double) than Kontakt, ...but the things torn bad when we need to use the sample instruments played directly from Hard Disk (DFD) We lost over 25% of poliphony in the better escenario...
The real winer is Halion 2: Around double poliphony than Kompakt an a real working Direct From Disk technnology let us sweat untill we reach his limits!
I'll put an theoric example: In the same MDD 1.5 Gb RAM :
All Instruments are 100 Mb each:
Logic plus EXS:
7 instruments with 200 notes of polyphony.
Cubase plus Kontakt:
14 instruments with 100 notes of polyphony.
Cubase plus Halion:
24 instruments with 200 notes of polyphony.
This is why Halion is the winner. And the second is Kompakt. And about EXS, 200 notes of polyphony are useless with just 7 instruments.
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This is more complex than measuring poliphony alone. We can have a very amount of polyphony even with the worst sampler, just playing a simple "beep". LOL
G5/EXS24/Logic 6.3.2/OSX 10.3.1 review at SOS http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar04/articles/applenotes.htm (http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar04/articles/applenotes.htm)
In order to carry out the EXS24 test, I turned to a Harp instrument from the Vienna Symphonic Library (HA_ES, to be specific), which contains 386.7MB of 16-bit samples at 44.1kHz. I used the built-in Core Audio drivers with a buffer size of 512 samples and initially disabled the EXS24's Virtual Memory disk streaming option so the performance of the disk and controller wouldn't impede the processor and system buss's capabilities. In Logic's Arrange window I created a one-bar object that looped indefinitely with a 64-note cluster over the first quarter-note beat, adjusting the tempo of the song until the EXS24's voice indicator reported that 64 stereo voices were playing back continuously.
With 11 instances of EXS24 working flat-out in the same configuration as described in the last paragraph, the first and second CPU meters in Logic showed approximately 95 and 100 percent usage respectively; the User value from OS X's Activity Monitor reported 88 percent. Adding a 12th instance overloaded the system, but even with 11 instances of EXS24, each playing back 64 voices, the total number of stereo voices was 704, which is pretty impressive.
There's an oft-forgotten option in the EXS24 editor window's preferences that lets you select 32-bit floating-point storage for samples, rather than the 16- or 24-bit integer format of the data as it's stored on a disk. This option offers a huge improvement in terms of performance, since, as discussed last month, Logic's audio system is based around 32-bit floating-point arithmetic. So if the EXS24 sampler stores sample data in a 16- or 24-bit integer format, it has to convert every sample into 32-bit floating-point when retrieving the data from memory. However, when the samples are loaded into memory as 32-bit floating-point, this integer to floating-point conversion isn't necessary — the only downside being that the same instrument will require either twice the memory, or a third more, when the 32-bit floating-point storage option is enabled.
apple performance
Choosing 32-bit floating-point sample storage allowed me to run an incredible 51 instances of EXS24 on the G5 before overloading the system at the 52nd.
In the case of the VSL's 16-bit harp instrument, enabling 32-bit floating-point storage doubled the amount of memory required to 773.4MB — and suddenly the Power Mac G5's 8GB memory limit seemed small again! However, in terms of performance with the same 11 instances of EXS24, Logic's CPU meters dropped to around 25 and 15 percent respectively, with the User value reporting 25 percent. Not bad. In fact, with 32-bit floating-point storage enabled I was able to get 51 instances of the EXS24 sampler playing a total of 3264 voices. At this stage in the experiment, Logic's CPU meters read approximately 100 and 95 percent respectively, and the User value was at 90 percent. Adding a 52nd instance overloaded the system.
After the 32-bit floating-point test, I switched back to 16-bit storage to see the effect of enabling Virtual Memory, so that the samples streamed from disk instead of being wholly stored in memory. However, as you can probably guess, enabling 32-bit floating-point storage makes little difference when the samples aren't stored completely in memory, since they will be read in their native storage format. Virtual Memory was configured with Disk Speed set to Medium and Disk Activity set to Average, requiring a constant RAM allocation of 15.1MB. With this setup, nine instances of EXS24, playing 576 voices, pushed both of Logic's CPU meters to the limit, with a User value of 92 percent, and the system performed better with eight instances playing 512 voices.
Another factor that makes a big difference to the performance of the EXS24 sampler is whether the filter is enabled or not. With 32-bit floating-point storage and Virtual Memory disabled I managed only three instances of the EXS24 sampler (192 voices), each with the filter enabled. In this context, Logic's CPU meters showed approximately 60 and 100 percent usage respectively, with the User value indicating 75 percent. Adding a fourth EXS24 instance with the filter overloaded the system. Enabling 32-bit storage allowed the fourth instance to be added, while adding a fifth overloaded the system. With four instances playing 256 voices, Logic's CPU meters each gave a reading of around 85 percent, with the User value showing 73 percent.
In EXS24 you can get more/less instances depending on how you "record" them on the hard drive.
With one instance of sampletank, you could load various instruments, each one with its own poliphony.
And In my opinion EXS just can do the job if it is simple... and Sampletank is just a toy.
http://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/totalworkstationxl/ (http://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/totalworkstationxl/)
http://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/philharmonik/ (http://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/philharmonik/)
http://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/xpansiontank/ (http://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/xpansiontank/)
A good toy... ;D
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Protools5LEGuy: any part of your last post is related to Mac Os 9 software? just to avoid losing my time reading it.
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Protools5LEGuy: any part of your last post is related to Mac Os 9 software? just to avoid losing my time reading it.
It is related to 2 things:
EXS24 working (OS9andX) with samples on 32 bit floating point is easier for the CPU. Also to not use the filter appears as a "trick in the Wall"
Sampletank 2.5/3 family (OSX). Five years ago I had a good library based on sampletank 1 on XP/Protools 6. My drives burned and I lost it and moved to Kontakt 2, but a friend kept using same platform/libraries in XP some more years. There were a lot of "refills" made also for sampletank. And some "pure" sampletank libraries, but I can not find them now. I had more than 20 Gigs of pure sampletank libraries...
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I'll put an theoric example: In the same MDD 1.5 Gb RAM :
All Instruments are 100 Mb each:
Logic plus EXS:
7 instruments with 200 notes of polyphony.
Cubase plus Kontakt:
14 instruments with 100 notes of polyphony.
Cubase plus Halion:
24 instruments with 200 notes of polyphony.
This is why Halion is the winner. And the second is Kompakt. And about EXS, 200 notes of polyphony are useless with just 7 instruments.
You make me want to try Logic + Halion... ;D :D
There is also Cubase + EXSP24... Maybe using the 1 Gig Ram trick from DieHard and limiting memory in other way you could use without the freezes/hangs off the system.
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EXS24 working (OS9andX) with samples on 32 bit floating point is easier for the CPU. Also to not use the filter appears as a "trick in the Wall"
Yes, it is. But this applicable to most of the samplers, especially to Kompakt.
Sampletank 2.5/3 family (OSX). Five years ago I had a good library based on sampletank 1 on XP/Protools 6. My drives burned and I lost it and moved to Kontakt 2, but a friend kept using same platform/libraries in XP some more years. There were a lot of "refills" made also for sampletank. And some "pure" sampletank libraries, but I can not find them now. I had more than 20 Gigs of pure sampletank libraries...
Will be interesting to try out some of this libraries...
You make me want to try Logic + Halion... ;D :D
This is not the best thing you can do in Logic, I'm afraid...
There is also Cubase + EXSP24... Maybe using the 1 Gig Ram trick from DieHard and limiting memory in other way you could use without the freezes/hangs off the system.
Logic and EXS easily bite the dust in this area in my opinion. Unless a Logic and EXS user can show us the opposite...
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I will attempt to not to bore the masses...
Firstly, we are all so spoiled... before good software Samplers we had a ton of cables and external SCSI crap (like an Akai S5000/S6000) and then we had SCSI Hard drives / CD ROMS on the Akai samplers.
http://www.vintagesynth.com/akai/s5000.php
Now, as a side note, the filters and AD converters on many vintage hardware samplers like the S5000 sounded so Fat and creamy that I personally fought against software samplers for many years.... but eventually, the house keeping of matching Sample libraries with projects with cable spaghetti and backing up external SCSI hard drive libraries and CDs became a huge pain in the ass... so as the technology became better of internal software samplers, the convenience outweighed the headaches and the quality got real close.
Now for my vote, the Reason stuff (even as a re-wire) NNXT and NN19 are #1 in the "low overhead" and speed category. So, for instance, converting Standard MIDI cover files into Audio files, these babies really shine. Fast, low CPU, and 100% better quality than loading a VST Roland GM sound module.
HALion and EXS24 and the choices for Original Artist works, they are very flexible and offer real emulations of the hardware samplers (filters, etc.). Both provide the quality needed to make pro projects sound... well... pro. Both offer great libraries and the ability to get formats in/out and convert almost anything with 3rd party stuff.
The Kompakt/Kontakt propriety sample libraries have always pissed me off even though they are great, stable products. Converting protected NKI patches is not an option, also, I like having the ability to use use software converters like "Chicken Translator" and I like the ability to actually see my samples as separate files to rename, replace, for max flexibility.
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On 1:45:10 the OS9hater/NeXTfanboy presents Gerhard Lengeling, cofounder of eMagic(Apple company at that time) and he talks at 1:46:10 that the sampler from Logic (EXS24) is able to play more than 1000 24 bits stereo voices(poliphony ?) on a G5
i remember this keynote and the above statement regarding sampler voices very well, and it was nice example for the speed of G5 vs G4 computers.
if you want to know what the exs-1 can play on a G4 ... i´d say just try it. :)
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I will attempt to not to bore the masses...
Some may agree or disagree, - that's why this are called a discussions forum LOL - but your posts are usually very good, not boring at all.
The Kompakt/Kontakt propriety sample libraries have always pissed me off even though they are great, stable products. Converting protected NKI patches is not an option, also, I like having the ability to use use software converters like "Chicken Translator" and I like the ability to actually see my samples as separate files to rename, replace, for max flexibility.
I'm totally agree with this. Kompakt/Kontakt proprietary sample libraries are a very limiting and frustrating problem. And nowadays the things go even worst with those "new" sampler engines like Aria, Play, VI, and so on ...
The Kompakt/Kontakt libraries are very good and the wider availables. It is very hard to make a library like my "famous Kompakt 32 GB" for Halion or EXS. I'm trying this now (for Halion), but I'm not sure if this can be achieve. Let's see...
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i voted for halion because for me the most important thing is that you can easily build your own instruments/programs.
the worst concept from this perspective is the exs, because it puts many things on an abstract layer without purpose.
halion and LM4 mkII were the most widerspread formats back in the days, and they were the first samplers which support drag and drop and easy control over velocity and key groups.
another nice sampler plug-in - given its price - was the V-Samp. you had to use the standalone to build programs and it didnt support 32 bits, but it was very simple and straightforward to use.
halion is also the only sampler plug-in i ever paid for and i see it together with kontakt as the only "serious" or "professional" option on OS9.
of course i have never really used them regulary, at least not since pluggo 2 came out, which allowed me to build programs or "engines" like i wanted them to be.
edit: not to forget "mute groups" (like for a string instrument or the classic open hihat closed hihat group)
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It largely depends upon what you are using samplers for. For me - none of these are good samplers! >;]P
Why this is that it seems most people use sampling in a multitrack context to "fill out" the sound field, or to give the illusion of instrumentalists performing in the work. For this approach, considerations such as polyphony, layering, library management and such become primary. I prefer using a sampler live as a solo performance instrument, which moves the focus to other criteria. Such as ease of live address or freeing buffer space, and ways map algorithms live from performer gestures to the sounds in memory.
Of those listed, I have only tried three. Halion UI confused me, so never bothered with it. ESX24 seems ok to just play back lots of sounds in Logic. I prefer Kontakt for at least doing some analysis on the sound material, even though my early versions on OS 9 are a bit limited with regards to playback options.
My faves were not on the list! Those are STEIM's LiSa (LIve SAmpler), and Max/MSP. Either of these enable me to use either recorded or live sound and use it as pure sonic material in whatever ways occur to me.
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I will attempt to not to bore the masses...
Some may agree or disagree, - that's why this are called a discussions forum LOL - but your posts are usually very good, not boring at all.
I'm a big fan of DieHard's posts... especially the 'real world experience/back in the day' type posts! ;D
I've never really used much in the way of samplers but I've been thinking about monkeying around with some stuff lately... These posts are very interesting in that respect! :D
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voted for the EXS24 only because that's the only one I've tried and that was a very limited try at that! Plan and trying out a few of the others at some point. ;D
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sorry, lol, my favourites aran't here as they're pure hardware.
AKAI S5000, S6000 with USB), Z8, Roland VP9000 andyamaha A5000 (all previously owned)
I've not been much of a software sampler user because of accessibility issues.
ed
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My favs : Fairlight CMI III, EII, S900, EPS16+, S6000, K2500 in no particular order. I couldn't part with any of them!
_BT
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i have an akai S612 & akai S950
i need to get some floppy discs bad they are just sitting here unused
i kind of lost interest in them after i learned they couldnt be interfaced with Recycle via SCSI
like the S2000 + S3000 can ..
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What is STEIM's LiSa? there is Mac Os 9 version?
BTW: Can Max/MSP be considered a sampler?
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What is STEIM's LiSa?
LiSa X ©is sound manipulation software ultimately designed for live sonic performance. LiSa’s functionality is centered around creating a sound field in the computer, where the performer can record and manipulate multiple sound streams on the fly.
http://steim.org/2012/01/lisa-x-v1-25/ (http://steim.org/2012/01/lisa-x-v1-25/)
there is Mac Os 9 version?
http://steim.org/software/LiSa/OS9/ (http://steim.org/software/LiSa/OS9/)
BTW: Can Max/MSP be considered a sampler?
I guess. In the right hands it can be a swiss knife. In wrong hands it can be considered a toy. So YMMV. If Metrophage uses it as samples, who are we to discuss his methods... ;D
I just updated the poll so hardware-only user can use it, like SonikArchitects or Ed Redfern
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Ok, thanks for clarification. :)
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My favs : Fairlight CMI III, EII, S900, EPS16+, S6000, K2500 in no particular order. I couldn't part with any of them!
_BT
With a buzzing and whirring and explosion of lights, my Fairlight sings sonorously on this sweet winters night.
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Exs24 for simplicity
Machfive is able to convert and play back my roland and akai sound library and sounds amazing.
very accurate conversion.
Akai s6000 is a powerhouse and solid as a rock stability.
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So many Samplers, so little time....
some favs:
E-MU E4XT Ultra (with EOS 4.7 and SSD drive)
E-MU EIII
Akai S1100
Akai s950
Akai MPC60, MPC3000
Sequential Prophet 2002
Ensoniq ASR-10
plus more...
It's hard to pick one cause they all do different things.
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fairlight cmi can be seen used in this video during the solo by jane child from 1989
jamming on the mod wheel
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWd__w5UWVc[/youtube]
as well as a oldschool macintosh computer in the background!
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OMG... flashback, we were all so in love with her !!
She rocks !
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So many Samplers, so little time....
some favs:
E-MU E4XT Ultra (with EOS 4.7 and SSD drive)
E-MU 5000 ULTRA
E-MU EII
E-MU ESI32
Roland VP-90000
AKAI S1000
ENSONIQ MIRAGE
EMAGIC EXS24
plus more...
It's hard to pick one cause they all do different things.
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(https://encyclotronic.com/uploads/monthly_02_2016/ccs-14-0-63715900-1455073844.jpg)
Favorites on the List
ASR10r
(top of the list for multiple reasons in Sound quality/DP effects engine/Waveboy/custom sample libraries/natural intuitive ease of use/plus started using EPS16 so long ago that it was automatic instant learning curve for me... intimate with that machine inside and out... nothing else really compares for me... yet will use them anyway for learning/experimenting/creating... ASR10r is my personal goto Fav)
BTW does anyone have the factory VHS Covert tutorial series tapes digitized?
they are so funny
haven't watched them in ages and need refresher of days with them looping on TV in background
EPS16+
Roland S760
Roland S550
Emulator I & II
Emax I & II
plus Korg DSS1 12 bit hybrid Aircraft Carrier
threw a Mirage in the trash before... Doh!
yet still use Ensoniq Mirage string sounds
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1. Prophet 3000 - the most 16bit musical sampler, lovely tone on anything
2. Emu EIIIx (because is it cheaper than what follows, next)
3. Emu EIII - too expensive but a huge sound, it dominates the mix and is super stereo
4. Roland S770 - lovely tone
5. Emu EIV - modulation machine, released in 1994 quickly superseded by iterations but the original is the most dynamic and loudest of all the EIV line. Later they got rid of the SSM2142 line drivers which give 'transformer' like 'warm' sound. It goes right up to EOS 4.10 thats the year 2000 (6 years of support!)
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No one mentioned the mervellous Akai MPC4000 ? Ahhhhhhhhh