Mac OS 9 Lives
Mac OS 9 Discussion => Emulation => Topic started by: Rikintosh on September 29, 2020, 11:00:28 AM
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(https://forums.macrumors.com/attachments/classix-png.960924/)
To understand my choices a little better, I will list them and explain why I made them.
After a lot of frustration trying to run Mac OS 9 natively on my powerbook, I decided that the most viable way to run my classic games would be through the classic environment of Mac OS X 10.4. But for everything to work satisfactorily, it would take a huge effort to research and modify the system, and in my opinion, that would only be worth my time, if it were to help the community of PPC lovers, so I did it.
To understand my choices a little better, I will list them and explain why I made them.
Mac OS X 10.4.11
When it comes to classic environment, we all know that Tiger is not the best choice, he suffers from performance problems in classic, Apple seemed to be trying to kill classic once and for all, to force developers to migrate to OS X. So, why did I choose this version? Simple! My goal is to make the most recent PPC machines run satisfactorily on mac OS 9, many machines from the year 2005 do not support another version of the older mac os X.
So what good has all this effort been done to modify the system, if Tiger is not good with classic?
- Simple! Because I ported the Classic from Panther (10.3) to Tiger! With that, we have a performance of 30 to 60% better than in the original classic of the system!
In addition, I optimized the entire system so that the center of attention is our beloved Mac OS 9. This means that I removed some things from OS X that were not important, so that the system runs better and faster, BUT ... you you will still have the best of both worlds! Things that were not possible in Mac OS 9, can now be useful! How about a Mac OS 9 with native support for your airport card, WPA? Or support for screen brightness, fan speed control, remote control, bluetooth, java, and even our beloved TenFourFox, already configured to have the best possible performance (believe me, it is incredibly fast in this build).
You may be asking yourself now: But that sucks an OSX Tiger with a classic, any mac does it! - Not quite. I built this system, so that it was a secondary system in a bi-partitioned HD. It is the reincarnation of Mac OS 9, the several hours I spent on this system, it was improving the performance and compatibility with OS9, in addition, 90% of the graphical interface is with the Plantium visual and also acts / responds like it, for you if feel at home, as in OS9. It is basically a Mac OS 9 running under the Mac OS X platform, which serves as a basis for mediating between legacy and unsupported "modern" hardware. Classic may not be exactly the same as OS9, but on an unsupported g4 or g5, it's either it or nothing.
What still needs to be done...
- I would like to customize the boot screen to insert the image at the beginning of the post, unfortunately the apps available to change the image of the boot screen do not resize the image, they just change. I plan on replacing the current boot screen with the happy mac image on the gray screen. Suggestions?
- I combed through all the OSX documentation and found nothing about it: As soon as the boot screen ends, the system starts the graphical interface (a blue background) then a window written Starting Mac OS X ... appears. I would like to change the BLUE COLOR in the background, but I haven't found anything about it.
I placed a trash can on the work area provisionally. It is not the best choice, it does not work as well as I expected. I tried the tip to create a shortcut to ./Trash, but the problem is that it will only work for the drive where the trash is, and the icon does not change to empty trash / Trash full.
- Unfortunately Dock is necessary for the desktop to work. I'm still looking for a solution to hide it forever.
- My initial idea was to modify classic.app so that it would run in full screen. There is even a tip out there about changing something in the mac os 9 finder, so that the OS9 finder can be seen, but still, somehow, classic does not allow you to see the desktop, and this was the great flaw that made me change my mind, so I decided to modify the entire OSX.I tried to run MacOS.app from Mac OS X DP2 and 3, because it allows you to run classic in full screen, but unfortunately it doesn't work outside the original system. Searching the classic Panther code, I found entries for a button called Show Mac OS 9 desktop, but it seems to have been disabled during compilation.
-A strange bug happens when I try to run Doom 1 from 1996 on any version of classic: The game runs by skipping frames, but in a certain region of the screen, the game runs perfectly at a high frame rate (as it should be). I will only be able to play it if I change the screen resolution to as low as 800x600.
Some Screenshots...
(https://forums.macrumors.com/attachments/picture-1-png.960928/)
(https://forums.macrumors.com/attachments/picture-1x-png.960929/)
(https://forums.macrumors.com/attachments/picture-2-png.960930/)
(https://forums.macrumors.com/attachments/picture-3-png.960932/)
(https://forums.macrumors.com/attachments/picture-4-png.960934/)
(https://forums.macrumors.com/attachments/picture-5-png.960936/)
(https://forums.macrumors.com/attachments/picture-11-png.960937/)
(https://forums.macrumors.com/attachments/picture-a2-png.960938/)
Despite all the hard work, the system is not yet ready, I will continue the development after voluntary testers report tips, opinions, problems, etc...
Download links:
- MEGA (https://mega.nz/file/VWZBkQrB#aCGOdImdBhU0l0XNA0skB9imi4GjqtvZ0tk40hX6IfY)
- Macintosh Garden (https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/rikintoshs-mac-os-classix)
How to use:
Dual boot:
First of all you need to partition your HD (if you want to keep your current system + classix), I will not go into details on how to do this so as not to create a giant topic. Then use the disk drive to write the dmg to the new partition. When the process is over, you can select the system by system preferences / startup disk, or hold the Option screen on the keyboard when starting your mac.
Classix only:
Copy classix.dmg to a pendrive, Start your mac with the Mac OS X 10.4 cd, select disk drive, open the dmg on the pendrive, and restore to your hard drive.
Note: The first boot can take a little time. Within the system, a defragmenter is included, it is recommended that you repair the permissions, and defragment the system before you start using it.
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could you maybe sum up in one sentence why classic in 10.3 would be 60% faster than in 10.4?
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could you maybe sum up in one sentence why classic in 10.3 would be 60% faster than in 10.4?
For the tests I did with games. I always hated having to use classic because the games performed poorly, even simple games like Jazz Jackrabbit 2, had constant lags. I read somewhere that this was typical of the tiger classic, and that it didn't happen on the Panther or Jaguar. Even in many internet forums (even on the official apple forum) there are a considerable number of people complaining about the performance of photoshop and other applications, which worked well in Panther Classic, and who after experiencing classic in 10.4 felt a performance degradation.
First I installed the Panther in another powerbook of the same model, to see if any change in performance was noticeable. And I really noticed this difference, which I assumed to be 30 to 60% faster. Then, I started working on the idea of porting the classic application from 10.3 to 10.4, to try to get a better performance, and I was successful.
I worked on it for about an entire month. It was just a personal project, so I could play old games on my favorite 17 inch powerbook. But I felt that I made such an effort to make it happen, that it wouldn't be fair to have it just for me.
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Somewhere else in this forum said how to enable OS9 desktop to classic, but I didn't find it...can somebody remember?
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i think mr protools was that? shouldnt it work by making finder (or a copy of it) an APPL?
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http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2947.0.html (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2947.0.html)
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That switching to "APPL" doesn't work well, the mac os 9 desktop will never be displayed, the osx desktop appears again somehow, and we need the osx desktop to control sound, wifi, battery level, brightness etc...
I could even work on something to solve the problem to control the wifi, sound, brightness and other things on the os9 desktop, but the main problem is that the classic environment doesn’t show the os9 desktop in any way
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the main issue in the UX field is that the OSX dektop works differently. but also like you said, that you needed it in addition anyway.
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Run Mac Os 9 on a hig end G4 and you'll undestand why you should trash any "Os X Classic Enviroment".
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Run Mac Os 9 on a hig end G4 and you'll undestand why you should trash any "Os X Classic Enviroment".
I ran it, and got a mac os that didn't have wifi, ethernet, sound and video.
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Sounds like a user error to me.
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Sounds like a user error to me.
Nope. OS9 is simply made for old machines. Trying to run it on a G4 above 1ghz is a waste of time, there are no drivers, and no people interested in developing them
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no drivers for what. for ethernet, video and audio? :)
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no drivers for what. for ethernet, video and audio? :)
Have you tried to start os9 on an unsupported machine?
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most people here do that. the only thing which does not work is the firewire 400 port.
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First, I'd like to thank you for all your hard work in making this possible.
On my particular PowerBook G4 (model no. A1106), I was unable to use Disk Utility to restore the disk image to my dedicated OS 9 Classic partition. I unfortunately forget the error it gave me, but I was able to get things working by using Carbon Copy Cloner (version 3.4.7 for Tiger) in lieu of Disk Utility. I have yet to actually try any software, although everything else looks good so far.
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most people here do that. the only thing which does not work is the firewire 400 port.
Show me where the driver for radeon 9700 is. And everything else that is needed to work on a powerbook. I did several tests. In addition to a rube goldberg machine in openfirmware to boot.
It is a complete waste of time. I won't even go into the merit of how to make it work on a G5.
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Someone stupid edited the title of the post.
I'm not trying to improve the classic, I'm creating an osx build totally dedicated to using OS9. OSX is the key to compatibility between OS9 and unsupported machines. OSX will be a compatibility layer.
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The Purist will always talk about native booting. I like your approach.
Please check the first post of http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2947.0.html (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2947.0.html)
in case it could help you for future revisions.
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My PB17" GHz Alu is the only one with partial support of all the Alu PBs. For the rest of the Alu PB is missing functions on Mac OS 9 and I see why you would like to have internet on the machine.
For me Panther Classic is better than Tiger Classic too.
So, until we find/build drivers for the Alu PB and the G4 iBooks and the G5s is a good alternative. Tiger drivers + Panther Classic is a victory.
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not sure if powerbooks already count as "high end" for @MacTron
i have a wonderful and brandnew 1.67 17" here, which i cant use with OS9 - yet - but the day will come! :)
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Tiger drivers + Panther Classic is a victory.
and one day we shall find someone who ports the 10.5 desktop remote service and client back to 10.4
this leaves a huge hole in my LAN organisation and i could swear every time i miss it. (i am afraid it requires coregraphics or something)
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Guys, isn't this talk getting way off-topic and into OSX territory?
The subforum here is called:
Mac OS 9 Booting on Previously Unsupported Hardware
Emphasis being on OS9 booting, not running OS9 in Classic mode under OSX.
Thanks!
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Rickintosh has put this post in the right place. For those that cant boot native, take a spin on best possible Classic.
This is for those that cant help develop a native boot and want a ride.
Previously Unsupported Hardware in some cases has worst support. Only Mac Mini and PM FW800 have "full" support, but ALU machines are behind, even 17 " GHz cant compare to a GHz Ti in OS9
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that is not wrong, but from his perspective it is not really an OSX topic either. :)
want real off topic? here´s some
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjxgXDPmg8A
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With this thread, along with other fairly recent ones, it seems to me that it's time for a new sub-heading under the section "Classic Mac Software" for discussing games and gaming.
There appears to be a "new generation" of people both on this Forum and others of people … I dunno, bored? with their PS3's and Segas et al who have a renewed interest in old-school gaming on old Macs.
I'm just sayin'……
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...it seems to me that it's time for a new sub-heading under the section "Classic Mac Software" for discussing games and gaming.
>via< a renewed interest in old-school gaming on old Macs.
Perfectly sensible and understandable suggestion.
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in 2015 the opinion on this was that "games" should better not appear somewhere because it will attract even more off topic (within the gaming OS9 thread)
otoh, nominally there are probably more people interested in games than in pro audio or photoshop.
since a special C.E. subforum wont make much sense i also think he posted in the best possible section.
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the current status is that when you post a suggestion about structure in the vault board nobody cares.^^
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Nope. OS9 is simply made for old machines. Trying to run it on a G4 above 1ghz is a waste of time, there are no drivers, and no people interested in developing them
Running Mac Os 9.2 on G4's above 1 Ghz is where the fun begins. I have MDD's at 1.5 and 1,65 Ghz. Sawtooths at 2.0 Ghz and an eMac 1.5 Gz.
If 1 ghz is not enough to run Mac Os 9, I can't figure out how it can run Os X.
I'm not trying to improve the classic, I'm creating an osx build totally dedicated to using OS9. OSX is the key to compatibility between OS9 and unsupported machines. OSX will be a compatibility layer.[/size]
" Introducing a new way to run OS 9 on supported non-G4 and G5 macs, 100% compatib "
This title is totally false and can lead a lot of confusion. Mac Os Classic Environment is just a Mac Os X Application to run a very limited version of Mac Os 9.2.
Someone stupid edited the title of the post.
Almost everything can be discussed. But insulting is totally banned. Nobody here is stupid, but some statements, of which, this topic is full. I'm not going to spend my time to clarificate them.
Please take it seriously or this topic will be removed.
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So please remove it, I have seen that this forum is a failure forum that does not have the money to buy a decent workstation, and that is why it is going over an operating system from 20 years ago.
A sick nostalgia takes over this forum. The only purpose for anyone wanting to use an old and outdated operating system is for old games. You treat running OS9 as if the majority wanted to continue to fail using programs and equipment 20 years ago to work. To perform what Fl studio does on an entry laptop does the same or better.
Limited is to use OS9 without any video acceleration, lacking numerous drivers, without SSL, without WPA, without support for ram memory, and think that this is an achievement.
Good afternoon.
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...
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Well, THAT sure as hell went off the rails, didn't it?
Maybe we should take up a collection to buy Mr. Rikentosh one of these…
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FL Studio is for children who do not know sheet music and only know how to assemble blocks ... But seriously, a good musician can write good music on anything. People write on the Atari ST, on the Amiga, on the Mac. The G4 is a great machine and Cubase, Logic, Pro Tools work great on it. There is nothing in modern Cubase 10.5 Pro that cannot be done in Cubase VST / 32 5.1.
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A sick nostalgia takes over this forum. The only purpose for anyone wanting to use an old and outdated operating system is for old games. You treat running OS9 as if the majority wanted to continue to fail using programs and equipment 20 years ago to work.
Somebody of us make real work with Mac OS 9.
Exmples:
1. You have large format printer and want print over 7 m long print. Windows or OSX drivers doesn't allow print that long with that specific printer.
2. You have to open old big files that has to open. Modern OS sometimes has strange problems when they try open bigger files than memory(including bis swap). Some Mac OS 9 programs doesn't even expect whole file should fitt in memory, only that part that needed.
3. You have DSP-card for audio use that doesn't have drivers for modern OS and you like it.
4. You have software that doesn't have any version for modern operating system and emulation doesn't work good enough.
Mac OS 9 is not outdated, say what is newer co-operative (not pre-emptive) Multitasking Operating System?
If you want use OS X Classic environment, you have to understand that it is not 100% compatible. You know it quite fast if you try use old audio plug-in with midi.
If you want you OS X Classic environment it is some times good for Mac OS 9 games especially if it has 3dfx support and you have fast dual G5. You might try that with MacGlide 3dfx-Ati-wrapper.
But I have to say I respect your try, because one of the line to make G5 to more compatible, another line is to make G5 to boot Mac OS 9, but both is hard to make work 100% even 50%, more about that later line: http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,5531.0.html
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teroyk, there's that old saying:
"Do not argue with a fool. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience." ;)
He's just a rude noob.
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nothing wrong with beeing a noob. but he gets told that A != B and then he repeats his statement.
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He's just a rude noob.
I try to teach him some basics and not be rude.
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So please remove it, I have seen that this forum is a failure forum that does not have the money to buy a decent workstation
Failure.... 6000+ members, Maybe a failure in your eyes, sorry to disappoint :(
Wouldn't it be great to spend less money on a workstation and produce the same results with talent as the variable instead of gigahertz ?
Wouldn't it be great to learn how it was done back in the day and apply that knowledge to making a Studio with a Mac Pro 5,1 that can interface with world class outboard gear like vintage samplers and make a track that doesn't sound like everything else ?
And that is why it is going over an operating system from 20 years ago.
Wow, your showing your ignorance here, as you get older, you will realize there are plenty of things older than 20 years that are still worth while, like the performance of my balls
A sick nostalgia takes over this forum. The only purpose for anyone wanting to use an old and outdated operating system is for old games.
For many of us "games" are the least important thing we want to run on OS9... as far as "sick"... guilty as charged
You treat running OS9 as if the majority wanted to continue to fail using programs and equipment 20 years ago to work. To perform what Fl studio does on an entry laptop does the same or better.
Your talking to many of us that have run almost any every DAW made, FL studio is a great product for some, if your a kid with a laptop, then have at it :)
It is one tool of many available
Limited is to use OS9 without any video acceleration, lacking numerous drivers, without SSL, without WPA, without support for ram memory, and think that this is an achievement.
OS 9 would surely suck with that checklist, but many of us have found a way to make OS9 support "RAM" memory
Are you related to our dear friend Chris ?
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Not like this isn't right up there in the header?
(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5685.0;attach=7947;image)
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Not like this isn't right up there in the header?
yes, but see... "it doesnt support GPU acceleration and RAM".
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You guys DO know you're just wasting time don't you?
Mr. Rik was clearly offended that we didn't adequately appreciate his groundbreaking efforts to twist Tiger and Classic into a new knot suitable for playing ancient games.
It will certainly take him some time to recover his composure and un-snit himself during which he will undoubtedly keep busy trying to perfect his "new" OS so as to humble the Forum upon his triumphant return.
Considering the very very small odds that he'll succeed however, it may be some time before we see him again.
Or not……
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Oh snap, I found this thread too late, only after I posted comments elsewhere about the project idea.
Well, since this topic will be left here for anyone to check anyway, I might as well point out that, although this project had (before the user snapped and dropped his brain on the floor on his way out) some merit to it in thought, it turned out ultimately pointless since Panther's Classic, like Tiger's, is broken and crippled. From direct comparisons, it did not seem like Panther's Classic was any less bad than Tiger's. Try running Hexen on both and see for yourselves: it's equally horrible and unplayable.
Then you run it (or any other Classic-compatible app) on 10.2.8 Jaguar instead. The results? Marvelous. Could almost (or literally?) pass off as a natively-run Mac OS 9 app.
And this guy WAS made aware of Jaguar's Classic's superiority beforehand (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,5621.msg42065.html#msg42065). So WHY in the world has he gone for Panther?! If he had actually read online around carefully, be it here, at Apple's forums, MacRumors and about everywhere else on the internet that discusses Mac matters, by far MOST complaints about Classic surround Panther/Tiger, with its transition from Jaguar. And by far MOST Tiger Classic complaints were NOT in defense of Panther Classic, but Jaguar's. Which is funny, as he made it sound like as if he had actually looked around and knew better, but clearly didn't.
And he didn't even leave behind the exact steps he took to replace the two Classic versions. Now that could have been helpful to know and confirm. But not even that. The whole effort goes to trash, along with his attitude.
The Purist will always talk about native booting. I like your approach.
Please check the first post of http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2947.0.html (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2947.0.html)
in case it could help you for future revisions.
The purist definitely will. But so will anyone actually wanting to run their programs. So essentially everyone, purist or not. :)
I like the approach, as well, because it serves a purpose, but as any reasonable person would also know, it is also not an OS 9 substitute. No direct access to the bare metal. Faulty software compatibility. And then there are the merits of OS 9 as an operating system itself, both in design and functionality.
Oh well. Let's hope we see Tiger (and Panther) running a decent version of Classic someday, for what Classic is worth.
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Jubadub,
That response was so well evaluated and stated, thank you for the comments.
I think we all got so flustered at the time with his attitude, that we skipped the fact that running classic mode is an important part of the puzzle for those who don't need to use audio interfaces and other hardware peripherals directly in Mac OS 9 (I am not a retro Gamer).
It is great to know (for those are searching for the info) that Jaguar hosts a better classic environment :)
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I know it is off topic, but I have to say it clear once again: What an impudence that we still have to deal with insufficient virtualizations and/or emulations regarding our beloved Operating System. Even 20 years later we have to deal with a situation where Apple pushed us into, that has in general nothing to do with our OS, but with the bad implementations into another Unix OS, …
Just imagine if we would have never had to deal with any "Classics" any X and in consequnce with no carbonization. Runnung our Mac OS without all that drawbacks, advertizing, marketing, controll, etc. at recent Power 9 Machines ;)
Last week I sat for the first time in front of a Windows 10 machine, and I could not belive that people are accepting this as system at all.
Nevertheless, thanks to people thinking about Classic, and improvement ideas, even if it has nothing to do with Mac OS 9.
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nobody said classic enviroment would be useless.
but most people would agree that OSX PPC is less useful than OS9.
and the guy suggested that classic enviroment would be the best way to run OS9 - which is triple layer nonsense. :)
CE fills a very small gap for OS9-native but OS8-(and therefore emulations)incompatible programs, under the condition that your only computer is a G5.
as soon as you have a modern machine - or a G4 which can boot into 9 - you simply dont need the result of this attempt.
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Having spent about 100 hours trying to get any one of three separate 12” PowerBook G4s up and running booting native MacOS 9.2.2 I am interested in a “best in class” Classic solution.
Downloading Jaguar now...
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Having spent about 100 hours trying to get any one of three separate 12” PowerBook G4s up and running booting native MacOS 9.2.2 I am interested in a “best in class” Classic solution.
Downloading Jaguar now...
Sorry you have place so much effort into the later G4 PowerBooks, there is no solution that gets them fully working under OS 9; however, we did document which models have varying degrees of success. I believe, as stated, this is still correct...
In fact, there are only 2 PowerBook G4 Aluminum models with possible full graphics support in Mac OS 9.2.2; the Apple PowerBook G4 867 12" with GeForce4 420 Go (4X AGP) and the PowerBook G4 1.0 Ghz 17" Aluminum with NVIDIA GeForce4 440 Go (4X AGP). We know the models with the ATI Mobility Radeon 9600 (4X AGP) will NOT give us full graphics support in Mac OS 9.
So, if graphic acceleration under OS9 is needed, these aluminum units would be the only choice. The Radeon 9600 and GeForce FX Go5200 will both be enigmas until we can get a graphics driver written for either of them... and I doubt we can make that happen. Also, we have Ethernet and cardbus issues. Even with these drawbacks, the PowerBook G4 1.0 Ghz 17" Aluminum is still a great alternative for those playing games or creating a DAW environment that does not need to be online.
More info here:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,3912.0.html
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Absolutely... I don’t necessarily need acceleration per se, just native res and Thousands of colours or better would be nice.
I’ll do a separate post on my findings with the 3 G4s - definitely getting closer to my goal!
Cheers,
Joel
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You are talking about the Jazz2 mac-os-port? seriously? that port is ugly stuttering and lagging mess compared to the win95 port. If you want to play Jazz2 like it's supposed to be than take the win95 version, use a PCI or early gfx-card or an early intel-igp (the later ones are broken too) and setup 640x400 at 8bit and choose "hardware-mode". you can tell the difference instantly. The game will switch the monitor to a 70hz mode (my TFT L367 is switched to 720x400/70Hz) and the game will be butterly smooth. I was shocked how bad the mac-os port is.