Mac OS 9 Lives
Mac OS 9 Discussion => Hardware => Topic started by: FdB on February 29, 2020, 01:21:11 PM
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This shows the position of the cheapo-TEAPO caps to be replaced on the main board.
One of the C13 / 16 / 29 caps tested fail - the others were less than optimum.
Best to simply replace ‘em all while it’s apart.
(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5364.0;attach=7265;image)
(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5364.0;attach=7271;image)
This does not show the TEAPO cap (or other caps) to also be replaced on the sub-board.
Shown here:
(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5341.0;attach=7248;image)
See this thread for more info:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=5341
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Excellent FdB!!! ;D
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Excellent FdB!!! ;D
Yup ... completely awesome ... and saved for future reference ... ;D
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This is some great info as I am about to replace caps on my G4 QS Acbel supply.
Does anybody know what happened to the thread linked here, I only get a 404 error.
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Does anybody know what happened to the thread linked here, I only get a 404 error.
I fixed it, should work now :)
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... umm, thought I had it bookmarked -
but now can't find any bookmarks since the transition. :o
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... umm, thought I had it bookmarked -
but now can't find any bookmarks since the transition. :o
There's probably something I missed setting. Let's see.
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Thank you Knezzen!
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Is this the same layout for an 800 MHz single processor Quicksilver?
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Best perhaps to open your PSU and compare - OR simply check your PSU’s case label.
The PSU photographed here (above) is an AcBel, API1PC12. APPLE P/N: 614-0157.
And of the four different Quicksilvers here, three have the same AcBel PSU
while only one has a Delta Electronics PSU: DPS-340AB A, APPLE P/N: 614-0158.
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Mine is actually AcBel 614-0146 AP10PC24, i will check if this guide is compatible with mine (or just go and replace all cheap green caps).
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>API1PC12. APPLE P/N: 614-0157
For interest I found this in a QS 800
>API0PC24
And this in a QS 9333
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Mine is a QS933 and has the API0PC24, yes, but i don't know if it was changed since previous owner did some botch on it.
As far as i have gathered, these should be interchangeable (QS):
AcBel
661-2513
661-2514
614-0146 (AP10PC24)
614-0157 (API1PC12)
Delta
614-0158
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apple even managed to put two different processors into the same model and ID of those quicksilver 933.
it is all still better than with all other manufacturers, but you can never trust in all parts always to be exactly the same.
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Surprised by the many different PSU AcBel IDs and Apple P/N numbers reported here. Is this a consequence of many different worldwide sales region / origins - or were there minor changes to each throughout the range and manufacture dates of the various P/Ns? @gert79 and @ alphaTECH may provide us with pictures of any different PSU configurations once theirs are opened.
The AcBels here note 344W Max output while the Delta PSU notes 355W Maximium output.
I wonder just how many (total 2001 & 2002) Quicksilvers were produced & sold worldwide?
("Titan" and "Nichrome".)
(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5364.0;attach=13608;image)
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So i started disassembling my QS PSU and indeed the circuit board is already very different from the one shown here above.
For now i am only planning to change the TEAPO caps. Does anybody know which components i could change preventively, now that i have it open?
In the course of disassembly i also made a photo documentation, as i will have to replace the "white glue", one coil is even completely loose.
Also i don't know how the fan control actually works, maybe i will leave that pcb and just place a load resistor instead of the fan, and then opt for a "silent" fan with proper PWM control and temperature sensor. But this will be a longer project, gradually updating the QS tower to be more silent and powerful as usual.
Opening that PSU is not fun and should only be approached if you have certain skills, so as of now i do not plan to share my photos to the internets.
(Also i don't plan to refurb and sell PSUs as a side job, i only need two PSUs for myself to have a reliable power source at any time.)
Note: A downsized and slightly cropped image file copy [View 2.png] is provided below to better facilitate complete on-screen viewing. -FdB
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So I pulled my AcBel 614-0157 QS PSU today as I've been getting some erratic behaviour after swapping in a 9200 gfx card, I noticed one of the caps is slightly bulging. Is this a candidate for replacing all five on the PSU board?
I've never done cap replacements before but have done a bit of soldering and modding. What brand am I looking at for replacements? Nichicon / Panasonic?
(attached images resized - aBc)
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Thanks Jacques. Nice pics. A bit on the large size for those with smaller screens but quite clear.
And yes that one bulged capacitor is a definite candidate for replacement. And that might be all that’s necessary. Yet being the glutton for punishment that I am, while in there, I’d replace all of the Teapos. However if you would prefer to get “in and out” quickly, replace only the one. And depending on your preference and just how long you intend to keep that machine running, choose capacitors of your own preference. (Many will steadfastly recommend one brand over another, but do your own research and choosing here.) I have even used NTE brand capacitors, simply because they were readily available.
AND before even attempting a re-cap:
1. Research how to fully discharge capacitors before proceeding. You can get a very serious charge from those (especially the larger ones) that may electrocute you.
2. Did the erratic behavior with the 9200 gfx card NOT manifest itself with your previous card? Maybe the demands of the 9200 are too great for the PSU in its’ current condition (as you suspect). So I guess the question is, do you really need to go with the 9200 when your previous card might have been acceptable?
3. If you do decide to replace capacitors, pay close attention to the positive and negative legs of the capacitors on the PCB. It’s quite easy to swap them and not discover this until afterwards.
4. Have you closely inspected the 9200 gfx card for any possible problems with it? Did it, or has it worked without problems in any other machine? I've had to replace capacitors on 9200 gfx cards themselves, before.
*And follow, don’t follow any of the above suggestions at your own risk.
There is a very trusted source for refurbishing PSUs on eBay that’s well known to members here. https://www.ebay.com/itm/141543772231? He also offers ATX PSU adapter cables if you might be interested in that option. https://www.ebay.com/itm/133346393458? AND if you contact him directly and mention that you’re a member of MacOS9Lives, he has offered us discounts in the past. [email protected] (Andy Cuffe)
I don’t doubt that you’re capable. Just wanted to make you aware of some other possibilities & options.
It can be extremely frustrating to go through an entire recap only to find that it didn't work. (This does happen.)
And I don't think that Andy accepts PSUs that have been previously "violated". ;)
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Thank you for the pointers. I think I’m going to order all five replacement caps, take it apart and see how I get on, starting with the clearly bulging one.
I’ve had five different gpu’s in this machine, original 2 MX card (no issues), ATI 9000 and three various ATI 9200 cards. All the ATI cards result in the same weirdness, more so if I plug in a non-powered KVM usb. I suspect the PSU so will start with the caps. This machine used to run a full AVID boardset, it’s just the AGP slot card swapping causing issues.
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Hello.
I have a QS 800MHz that when you press the button, it starts and stops. I have dismantled the power supply and bridged the green cable with the black one, and when I connected it the same thing happened. The source is AcBel 614-0157 QS PSU like the one @Jacques shows.
So I followed the tutorial.
None are swollen. C10 gives a correct value. C13, C16 and C29 of 2000uF give me a value of 3300uF and about 3-4ohm of resistance. When it seems strange, I replaced them.
The power supply was very clean.
After replacing them the problem persists, exactly the same. The fan control daughter board has few capacitors. Today I will try to check and replace some more, but I am afraid that my power supply has another problem.
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indibil, take a look here: http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=5341.msg39045#msg39045
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Yes, for more in-depth, related info read through that entire thread beginning here:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=5341.0
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You may have a dead mainboard / motherboard...it's a possibility.
Have a look at this YT vid, similar symptoms and Nick found the issue was the mainboard.
https://youtu.be/vAi-L6KWwZs?si=xhVaLR-qMScBJQU2 (https://youtu.be/vAi-L6KWwZs?si=xhVaLR-qMScBJQU2)
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You may have a dead mainboard / motherboard...it's a possibility.
Have a look at this YT vid, similar symptoms and Nick found the issue was the mainboard.
https://youtu.be/vAi-L6KWwZs?si=xhVaLR-qMScBJQU2 (https://youtu.be/vAi-L6KWwZs?si=xhVaLR-qMScBJQU2)
Interesting video.
And after watching through it a few times I’m uncertain as to whether or not he actually replaced the original mobo with a different one in the end - OR if he actually put the original mobo back in, making certain to properly seat all of the mounting screws? (Especially that one screw that was not Apple original.) And that one in particular is important screw for the CPU daughtercard circuit. No stable, solid connection there? Then no power up. So yes, definitely DO check ALL mounting screws and Molex connectors. No complete circuit power through the CPU = no boot and shut down.
Also… not a CUDA button. But instead… a PMU reset button. They are different and PMU needs only a fraction of a second to be depressed for a reset. I often confuse this terminology too, coming from older Macs with a CUDA button.
AND no new heatsink paste applied, nor any anti-static procedures followed? :o
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I'm testing the power supply outside the QS, bridging green wire with black.
I have replaced several capacitors, checked several suspicious tracks, checked the 4A thermofuse... and it still doesn't work. It doesn't seem like a capacitor problem, I think there is a short circuit in some component but I can't detect it with the naked eye.
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While I seem to be on a posting binge today…
After indibil’s comment that his PSU was like the one that Jacques shows, I noticed that Jacques’ sub board (“Fan control board”?) looked amazingly like mine. And while the bottom of Jacques’ main board seemed a bit different, his noted locations of the capacitors on his main board were very similar.
D’oh! Same API number and same Apple P/N number. ::)
(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5364.0;attach=13870;imagehttp://)
So, compared some other AcBel’s noted in this thread and came up with the following.
AcBel, API1PC12. APPLE P/N: 614-0157 aBc QS xxx
AcBel, AP10PC24. APPLE P/N: 614-0146 gert79 QS 933
AcBel, API1PC12. APPLE P/N: 614-0157 ovalking QS 800
AcBel, API0PC24. APPLE P/N: xxx-xxxx ovalking QS 933
AcBel, API1PC12. APPLE P/N: 614-0157 Jacques QS 867
AcBel, API1xxxxx. APPLE P/N: 614-0157 indibil QS 800
Would like internal images of gert79 and ovalking’s QS 933’s.
[AP10PC24 or API0PC24 PSUs.]
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For your reference table, mine is a QS 867Mhz.
In my PSU I noticed the resistor with the sleeve next to the one capacitor had actually caused that capacitor to discolour from heat as it had been touching. This is also the one that had bulged the most, surely this is not great design?
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Thanks Jacques.
Have updated the reference table and changed your API number too.
And if referring to the same resistor, may note greater signs of heat on mine.
(Red dots on the resistors in the last image above.) R44
Likely result of sporadic power surges due to poor solder joint on mine, over time.
(As opposed instead to close proximity to failed (or failing) nearby capacitor.)
But that’s just my theory. And no… not a great design, all considered. ;)
Having difficulty remembering and locating that exact PSU I recapped, now
over four years ago to determine just what all I did replace to correct it. ::)
Do please keep us posted of your progress. Thanks.
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The large resistor is a 3 W power rated load resistor for the 12 V output. They are part of the design because when there are no hard disks installed, there might not be any consumer of 12 VDC power. The supply needs a minimum load (minimum power consumption) in order to keep the output regulated. So that resistor burns power all the time just to supply the minimum load.
They are typically 50 Ω in value (since P = V^2/R, or (12*12)/50 ≈ 3) and are scorching hot. If you always have 12 VDC consumers attached you can just cut the resistor out. If the PSU is run with no 12 VDC consumer, regulation may fail on the 12 V rail which could damage the fan operating at that voltage.
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Thanks @robespierre for the detailed explanation of the R44’s intended role and its scorching hot operational nature.
With the latter in mind perhaps as Jacques intimated, its location and close proximity to that sub-board and especially to C29, with less than adequate heat shielding (if any at all) it could possibly have contributed greatly to the baking, swelling and possible failure of that single capacitor over time. And with that in mind… somewhat a poor design referring to the PSU’s internal layout and lack of heat shielding?
(http://http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5364.0;attach=13883;image)
(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5364.0;attach=13883;image)
The black rubber / composite(?) shroud noted here above on Jacques’ R44 was nearly 75% degraded (melted away) on mine and perhaps more interesting… is that the PSU continued to function for six months before total failure, after I had supplied supplemental power directly to the PSU fan from an independent outside power source. The fan had stopped working beforehand. Perhaps the damage had already been done.
Also, given the scorching hot nature… also perhaps a contributor to why my R44 seemed to have a loose, poor solder joint? Weakened perhaps over countless working hours and at those scorching temps?
If you always have 12 VDC consumers attached you can just cut the resistor out.
You’re not suggesting that by not having the 12 VDC demand of a conventional hard drive alone present, that this could lead to the eventual failure of R44 and the PSU? Especially when considering all other 12V demands on the PSU (like mobo, other internal 12V components and the case fan, etc.)? Or, just a warning about powering on a PSU outside of the machine, unloaded?
If the former - then perhaps that does not bode well for SSDs, mSATA and/or other likewise “power-adapted” storage media actually requiring less than 12 VDC? ;)
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If you always have 12 VDC consumers attached you can just cut the resistor out.
Don't mess around with original design, unless you know 100% why any particular component is there!!!
First Google hit gives you the correct answer: https://tinyurl.com/2czp2yff (https://tinyurl.com/2czp2yff)
Typical minimum loads for switching supplies are 10% of the maximum load current and usually one ampere, or less. Some supplies have internal resistors to provide the minimum loading; however, they will only work when the loading is slightly above this internal load.
EDIT. Almost every component inside computer is a variable load. Their current consumption at any given time is unpredictable. Constant loads, such as resistors, are put in there for a reason.
@aBc - iment what I ment.
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The colored stripes indicate a 69 Ω resistor with 5% tolerance. (12*12)/69 ≈ 2.1 W.
Hard drives may not present a load on 12V all of the time; when they sleep by spinning down, they stop drawing power. But case fans operate consistently whenever power is on. It doesn't take too many case fans to add up to 2.1 W.
The stability of regulation can be tested using an instrument called a DC Electronic Load, which would be required to "check out" any modification.
It's also worth pointing out that some computers use the 12V rail to run the CPU, through a "point of load" (POL) buck regulator next to it.
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Hello everybody
Sorry I couldn't follow the forum for a while due to real life priorities.
I still have all the photos of my QS PSU disassembly but I am a fan of decent resolution images and don't want to go thru the annoying work of resizing them for upload and furthermore have a loss of detail.
Sequence Of Events photos are the only way for me to be able to reassemble the PSU, so I will not post any single image. It is not my way of working.
Factually I was even a bit annoyed that my photos were scales down for "conformity". Imho we live in the age were it does not cost you much to shoot proper photos and also storage is available. You can always delete redundant photos later but you can never generate a missing photo when the work is done. And most of the time disassembly photos are assembly photos if you swap the order ...
I come from control cabinet wiring. Usually I shot thousands of photos each year in the highest resolution that was available on mobile device at the given time.
Currently 4000x3000 is good enough for me, and my intent was to have a photo that clearly shows the Apple Partnumber while being so high res that you could reproduce the PCB from that photo or even reverse engineer the schematics if you have good nerves. I like to think about the future, solve issues before s*it hits the fan.
Furthermore I am a bit stuck since I have to find the caps somewhere in Europe and I don't know with which substance I can replace the white goo, since it is needed to protect against mechanical stress, to prevent unwanted movement of caps closer to heat sources, but also to dampen any kind of coil noise. I had to break the hardened goo in some places and a full clean and re-goo later on has to be done once I have the caps sourced and mounted.
Going a bit OT as usual, I can share my photos via Google photo gallery but I absolutely don't take any responsibility if someone wants to do it like I did.
I don't want to come across as rude or arrogant but too many times in my life people thought I am an eejit and I am tired of it, being treated like that. So everything I explained above is just to add some more depth to my avatar gert79, which is actually a male name in Europe.
@aBc - please send personal message here in the forum and I will prepare the photos for you. Please handle with care like you usually do, I guess you just want to compare types of layouts anyways. If you have any special ideas which components I could replace, as the PSU is still disassembled, I would be very grateful :)
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PM sent. ;)
(https://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5364.0;attach=13940;image)
*Example images. Clickable for larger views.
(https://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5364.0;attach=13940;image)
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Furthermore I am a bit stuck since I have to find the caps somewhere in Europe and I don't know with which substance I can replace the white goo, since it is needed to protect against mechanical stress, to prevent unwanted movement of caps closer to heat sources, but also to dampen any kind of coil noise. I had to break the hardened goo in some places and a full clean and re-goo later on has to be done once I have the caps sourced and mounted.
I believe the stuff you are after is called Silicone rubber (RTV). Comes in various grades of hardness but most electronic component suppliers stock the stuff.
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If the PSU is not going on the plane, thain or automobile to get shipped to the other side of the planet, gluing capacitors to the PCB is not necessary.
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ssp3 above is correct. The Silastic or DowSil is for mechanical reinforcement, to withstand shock or vibration such as during shipment. Do not use any RTV: many silicones cure by releasing acetic acid, which will corrode the power supply.