Author Topic: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9  (Read 6854 times)

Offline GaryN

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2023, 10:25:14 PM »
I sense some frustration here, so I'll just respond to a few small comments rather than write another chapter.

you guys do not understand that the installation of multiple drivers at once, so that you can change the IO device during work, is one of the three core features of ASIO.
I think we understand it quite well, thank you. I even understand that you may have a number of different interfaces connected simultaneously either thru USB or with a belly full of PCI cards, personally, I don't. I have 12 channels of Delta I/O and that's 2 PCI cards right there which is clearly enough for me. I very seldom need or use more than the 8 in the Delta 1010. I have gone to 11 or 12 IN recording a group but mama don't like that in da house, that's just me and I digress.
this is why it cant be that it does not work at all, even if that is your personal experience.
I was going to compose a witty response to this non-sequitur , on the order of "Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?" but I changed my mind. Really. I did. Even if you're seeing and reading this, I didn't write it. It simply can't be.
and gary´s prophecy that a computer will immediately crash when soundmanager ASIO is installed is pure nonsense, which is not getting better when you try to "explain" it to me. :) (though the explanation has yet to come)
I am pretty sure I didn't say that. I did say that there can be situations where the Sound Manager ASIO will bump heads with a 3rd party one under some circumstances and that can, as with so many other Old-Mac OS conflicts, cause a hang that cannot be cured with less than a forced restart, the Command-Period move being ineffective.
soundmanger itself is also completely unreleated to the OPs problem with the delta.
That's actually almost certainly true.
and have you never had the need to run, say, cubase and sonicworx or maxmsp and peak at the same time and listen to it over the same speakers?
that is what ASIO is for: that you can use different interfaces at once.
Now I'm totally confused. I load and have open multiple apps like SVP and Sonicworx and Peak regularly. I can't remember needing to run them at the same time (simultaneously?) thru the same speakers, although I'm sure that if my Mac would actually enable me to do that, the result would be quite unusual for sure. I do switch back and forth at times from DAW to editor where SVP has the Delta 1010 and Peak has the Delta 44 OR Sound Manager. BUT, I don't do that often. I have a large console with lots of inputs and only the Deltas inside my Mac… no stack of external interfaces. But hey, everybody's workflow is different. It may be convenient for you that you "can use different interfaces at once" but that's not "what ASIO is for". ASIO exists to make high-quality audio handling possible by shortening the data path it has to unnecessarily travel and free up those clock cycles to do other things which vastly improves the overall timing - especially on PC's but it really benefits old Macs as well. I'm pretty sure you already know that and we're just having minor misunderstandings here.

I should tell you that ever since getting the modified-for-Sonnet Delta ASIO driver, they have happily lived in the ASIO folders snuggled up to the Sound Manager drivers without issue, just as they should. I must also insist however, that was NOT the case with the original M-Audio ones.
ssp3 also testifies to the ASIO oddities that are possible:
My 2 cents..
There are several ASIO SoundManager drivers out there. I have two. One is from 1996, the other from 1997. On TiBook 667 SpectraFoo analyzer crashes with Error 10 with earlier one, but works fine with 1997 version, so it's worth re-checking what version you have in the ASIO folder.
That's why (if you read my last post, I'm leaning away from ASIO conflicts as the cause of all this and toward the "ASIO driver doesn't like the CPU upgrade" possibility. DieHard notes the 7455 doesn't "need" a firmware patch but theoretically, neither should my Sonnet 7450's.

And yet……

Offline blaylok

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2023, 02:03:51 AM »
Hi everyone, thank you all for your advice, sharing of experience and suggestions thus far, it is much appreciated.

Ok, so first I tried as Diehard suggested and knocked the CPU Accelerator back to the stock speed (867GHz) that my Quicksilver came with before I added the OWC Mercury Extreme G4 1.4ghz upgrade card.

Unfortunately I had the same result - activity in the Delta panel vu meter while audio is being played (loaded groove agent vst in Cubase - hit play on default patch) but no sound at the Delta 44 breakout box outputs 1 + 2, switch to outputs 3 + 4 same result - No sound.

To note, before booting Cubase I removed all ASIO drivers in the Cubase ASIO folder and made sure that the Delta 44  ASIO driver was the only one in there.

After a little bit of fiddling around with settings in the Delta panel to try and obtain sound at the breakout box outputs the quicksilver goes into a freeze response (unable to move mouse/cursor and the only way out is a hard reset  :(

Ok, so after that I decided to try as Gary suggested and revert the CPU back to the stock 867GHz unit.

Did that, fired the quicksilver back up..(Cubase loaded same as above - groove agent vst)...but unfortunately the same result - initially no sound at either of the outputs whichever I select in the Delta panel - then after some 'fiddling' with settings both in Cubase and the Delta panel - the quicksilver goes into a freeze response that can only be resolved by a hard reset.

Not really sure where to go next

Thanks again everyone

Kind regards,

blaylok

Offline blaylok

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2023, 02:37:35 AM »
My Delta 44 is a revision B from 1999

Offline blaylok

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2023, 03:58:35 AM »
My Mercury Extreme G4

Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2023, 04:18:47 AM »
Maybe it is time to check how much memory wastes cubase and try a little less..............

Also I would try to use under a Gigabyte of RAM phisical memory, in case it is an app that loves less that 1 gig or 768Mb.

Try other DAWs also. Maybe Cubase+Delta44 is a bad combo.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2023, 04:30:03 AM by Protools5LEGuy »
Looking for MacOS 9.2.4

Online DieHard

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2023, 09:20:09 AM »
I really should have suggested this earlier, but run the diagnostics (extended mode), this will test RAM and logic board...

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,818.0.html

Burn it to a CD, boot to it, and test

Offline blaylok

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2023, 08:29:02 PM »
New day, new Mac protocol to learn...

Enjoying the process tho :-)

Ok thank you Diehard for the next step I need to take.

So I downloaded the Apple Hardware Test from the link provided and have burned it to a CD.

Unfortunately whenever I try to boot to it (by holding down C while booting the quicksilver) it just boots back to my normal desktop.

When I examine the contents of the CD the only file in there is Apple Hardware Test Read Me file and nothing else. Am I missing the actual Hardware Test program/file or something?

I don't have an Original Apple keyboard either (I am using a Dell/Windows keyboard that allows me to plug the mouse into the keyboard itself - the Apple Hardware Test Read Me file stated that a known issue was that the mouse could not be directly connected to the usb port of the g4 for it to be used) Could using a non-genuine Apple keyboard also be the issue with not booting into the Apple Hardware Test?

Thanks again everyone,

blaylok

Offline GaryN

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2023, 10:03:18 PM »
AHT is indeed in the file. All icons are invisible (why? Who knows?)

When you burn the CD, you should have burned it as a data CD-ROM. If you didn't, try again.

If still no boot, boot the computer to the internal OS9 then open the Startup Disk Control Panel and see if it is displayed as a valid boot option.
If it is, select it and restart.

You must run it with the Apple CPU. It's 99% it will indicate a fail with the Mercury or not run at all.
Not sure about the mouse. It will likely indicate a bad mouse if not plugged in directly but that's no big deal.

Offline blaylok

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2023, 10:54:17 PM »
Ok, thanks Gary 👍

I will burn the CD again as a data CD as you advised

I am back on the stock CPU (867GHZ) until I get this all sorted.

Thanks again,

blaylok

Online DieHard

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2023, 08:17:52 PM »
After receiving a PM, and answering it, I am also going to post this publicly.  In addition, and I will try to also attach this info to any downloads where I forgot to mention this very important fact

Any downloaded files with the ".bin" extension are totally useless (even toast images) until the encoding (.bin) is removed with stuffit expander.

After the download of any "BIN" you must either right click the file and choose from the Stuffit expand help Help Menu "remove encoding" or simply drag it onto stuffit expander and it will remove encoding and restore the file to a usable state (such as a toast/ISO, or compressed .sit)

Toast does NOT understand BIN, either does any other app, you must remove encoding, this was done so toast files (any other files) will retain their icon after encoding is removed

I am so so sorry to have not realized that this was unclear :(

For Reference: (As explained elsewhere):
Quote
Why are Mac OS 9 downloads so difficult ?

Most of our files have been encoded into MacBinary format (.bin) so that the data and the resource fork of the file will not be damaged when storing the Macintosh file on a non-Macintosh system. Classic Mac OS files are different in structure; other file systems (Windows) use file extensions to associate files with the program/application that created them.  For example, on PC systems, files with the ".DOC" extension, when clicked will launch MicroSoft Word as the associated program.  Classic Mac OS files have a "Resource" fork that stores the files CREATOR info and TYPE. This enables the Classic Mac OS to know the program/application that will utilize the file and the type of file that it is in case that program can open multiple file types.

In the case where the uploaded/downloaded file is a stuffit archive... then encoding (.bin) is not needed if the user knows to either drag it on top of StuffIt expander or open StuffIt and uncompress it manually... so it is basically re-dun dent since the stuffit archive itself will protect all of the contained files resource and data forks, but I am encoding everyfile (including SITs) for a convention/standard.... if the file being downloaded is an installable application file then the encoding (.bin) will ensure that the resource fork is not striped off in the upload/download process and this is where the encoding becomes more critical so that the file can retain it's original icon after the "bin" is removed

As they say in Italian... capische ?

Offline smilesdavis

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2023, 11:43:56 PM »
I got a Sonnet 1.8 ghz — where can i get this sonnet asio driver please?
Looking for: Steinberg Cubase MAC Standard/Score v1-5 & Cubase Audio v1, Cubase Audio v2 for, Cubase Audio v3 for DAE/TDM => complete or in parts

Online DieHard

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2023, 09:47:27 AM »
I got a Sonnet 1.8 ghz — where can i get this sonnet asio driver please?

Unfortunately, there is probably no "universal" Sonnet ASIO driver or patch...
Quote
I should tell you that ever since getting the modified-for-Sonnet Delta ASIO driver they have happily lived in the ASIO folders snuggled up to the Sound Manager drivers without issue,

You probably have to pray that for your specific audio card that Sonnet or a 3rd party (Audio card manufacturer) created a modified ASIO driver that works when the Sonnet CPU upgrade is installed; this may be extremely hard to track down... if one even exists for your hardware.

Offline chrisNova777

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2023, 10:25:41 AM »
i have lots and lots of delta cards over here
and many many different versions of the drivers

what driver + asio version is being used?????
was that even answered in the thread yet?

Online DieHard

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2023, 12:36:43 PM »
The question came after Gary mentioned he tracked down a custom ASIO driver for his M-audio interface that corrected issues that started after a Sonnet CPU upgrade.  He got the right tech that remembered that a modified driver was created to fix issues the CPU upgrade caused in systems with that particular card.  If Sonnet themselves modified these ASIO drivers, or did it in conjunction with M-Audio is still a mystery, also if they had issues with other manufacturers is also a mystery; I am guessing it was not "common knowledge" and only given to those who complained.

I am sure if others had problems they didn't connect the dots or even suspect the CPU upgrade compatibility issues with their specific ASIO driver... so others probably bought new hardware that did not have any issues and assumed their interface went bad... the usual fucking headache... lol

Offline GaryN

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2023, 01:44:39 PM »
I got a Sonnet 1.8 ghz — where can i get this sonnet asio driver please?

Here's the one I got from Sonnet that finally worked for me.

NOTE: I have a Delta 1010 and the Encore MDX Dual 1.8 in an MDD. I have no idea if it will work with say, a Crescendo in a QS or such.
This driver is labeled "Delta 1010" but it does work with my 44 as well.
YMMV.

Offline GaryN

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2023, 01:52:28 PM »
i have lots and lots of delta cards over here
and many many different versions of the drivers

what driver + asio version is being used?????
was that even answered in the thread yet?
I believe the ASIO is the one (probably 1.0) that shipped with the Delta 44. The 44 works properly in a Windoze box. The suspicion was that it was incompatible with the OWC Mercury CPU upgrade in the OP's QS 867 but was found to still fail after reverting to the original QS CPU.

We are now up to wondering about a different (motherboard?) culprit…

Online ssp3

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2023, 06:48:27 PM »
If Sonnet themselves modified these ASIO drivers, or did it in conjunction with M-Audio is still a mystery.
One should compare the original and Sonnet versions in ResCompare and see whether similar changes can be applied to other M-Audio drivers.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Offline GaryN

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2023, 09:35:40 PM »
One should compare the original and Sonnet versions in ResCompare and see whether similar changes can be applied to other M-Audio drivers.
Well I'll be…… Thank you ssp3 !  (Betcha never thought you'd hear me say that…)

I never knew ResCompare even existed until today. So, I was now motivated to dissect the mystery Sonnet ASIO and guess what I found?

Not a damn thing. It is the M-Audio / MIDIMan "Delta 1010v3" driver. Nothing more, nothing less.
I can only surmise that the guy at Sonnet who sent it to me just decided to take credit for it AND v1 and v2 did not work with the Sonnet and they corrected that in v3. So, he was telling more or less telling me the truth. I apparently didn't have the "v3" version and whatever I DID have worked fine with both the original 2x1.25 and also 2x1.42 apple CPU's I had previously but wouldn't tolerate the 2x1.8 Sonnet.
Maddeningly that might be only because the Sonnet uses 7450 CPU's.

So, it's just apparently just another standard update madness thing. It's just sad that these and so many other ASIO drivers are basically undocumented so you just have to get a bunch and keep throwing them against the wall until one sticks. The drivers are available on M-Audio's website but are cross-labeled between OS9 and OSX and have a different version labeling format AND there are variations for single vs. multi-card support and and and……

I'm running low on Adderall so I'm not going to try to pick thru it all comparing v2 with v3 right now. Or later, probably.

Has anybody ever seen an interface named the "Flying Cow"? It's in the M-Audio list.


Online ssp3

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2023, 09:44:06 PM »
Has anybody ever seen an interface named the "Flying Cow"? It's in the M-Audio list.

I have, even in person. I can't remember whether I looked under the hood or not, though. It's nothing special - standalone A/D and D/A unit based on the same budget converter ICs you can find on Audiomedia III card.
Remember, M-Audio was once called Midiman.

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/midiman-flying-cow

Pics pulled from the web.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2023, 09:56:07 PM by ssp3 »
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Offline blaylok

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2023, 07:07:32 PM »
Still actually struggling to get the quicksilver 867 to boot from the Apple Hardware Test CD so that I can test to see if there are other issues with the machine that are preventing the Delta 44 from producing sound. It just won't boot from the CD whatever I try (pressing c start-up, trying to select it in start-up disk, pressing alt on start-up etc).

Diehard mentioned another hardware test that doesn't need to be burned to a CD and booted from, does anyone else know of it and could point me in the direction of it please?
Thank you

regards,

blaylok