Mac OS 9 Lives

Classic Mac OS Hardware => DAW - Audio & MIDI Hardware => Topic started by: darthnVader on March 01, 2023, 11:48:24 AM

Title: Noob building DAW
Post by: darthnVader on March 01, 2023, 11:48:24 AM
Hey guys help me out, my roomy has a bunch of music equipment and I want to help him setup an OS 9 DAW, but I know nothing of this stuff.

The main equipment he has is a Roland VS-1680 and a Yamaha YPG-535 and some other mixing boards we haven't unpacked yet along with 10's of high end guitars.

Looking to set him up with OS 9 on a dual 867Mhz MDD just to get his feet wet in some of the simpler software before we move hm to the latter stuff that has way too many options to learn for a noob if that makes sense to you guys?
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: GaryN on March 01, 2023, 02:48:50 PM
So, he’s a guitar player with lots of money, guitars, a big Roland workstation he may (or may not) know how to use at all and “tons” of other stuff?

You’re asking a huge question here, you know. It’s really:
“Although I don’t really know anything about this stuff, how should I point this guy toward a (new to him) home recording situation with a bunch of equipment I haven’t identified yet using his unknown aptitude for it?”

AND (I’m guessing)
“I have an old MDD so why not start with that, buy the additional necessary interface(s) and other hardware to try to mate it to the much newer stuff he already has?”

AND
“Thereby force him to learn to operate the “obsolete” Mac OS 9 on vintage software and get comfortable enough on that to be creative before having him change up all of it entirely to move to newer hardware, operating system, workflow etc and learn all of that all over again.”

Sounds kinda nuts when I put it that way, huh?

Seriously… I know everybody has their own reasons for hanging on to OS 9 world - personally, I started there, got very efficient and comfortable with the workflow and I was never forced to deal with PoorTools and it works well for me - BUT I doubt I would advise anyone to start out there now - especially a guitar player (well, drummers even more so LOL) unless they have a high functioning brain and cannot afford much of anything at all so that all of the abandonware can make it all happen for them at very little cost. That does NOT seem to be the case here with what little info you’ve provided. Look… I know you know it takes a certain mentality to deal with all of the ins and outs and kinks and tangles of this old Macworld universe with it’s lack of support, unobtanium parts etc. Making someone learn all of that while simultaneously learning to use everything else and develop a comfortable work process at the same time just may be a perfect recipe for failure.

I’m a musician. I know lots of other musicians. In my too many years of experience, I have found that there is NO correlation between musical talent / aptitude and engineering proclivity. (damn, I just love to get to use words like that). Despite what Roland, Tascam, Avid and everyone else would have the world believe, it’s NOT just a piece of cake to wander into Guitar Center, walk out with some wiz-bang gizmos and software and become a YouTube star next week. It makes little sense to handicap ones progress and chances of success by starting in the unsupported past thereby making things more complicated and difficult that they need to be.

If you actually were an OS 9 DAW expert yourself and could guide him through the bumps and potholes of self-recording and using OS 9 today, interfacing it with all that he has and could save him from having to learn it all the hard way, it might be a different, workable situation, but based on what you’ve said so far, I strongly suggest you first find out what else hes has that's not unpacked yet, try to determine (as well as possible) if he's a guitarist, an engineer/producer both or neither and most importantly, how he expects to use it all and what he hopes and expects to get out of it all. Far more people fail at this than succeed and it's often because they simply start out incorrectly with unrealistic expectations that lead to early frustration with the process.
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: ssp3 on March 01, 2023, 03:26:55 PM
Hear, hear!

Another, quite often overlooked aspect, is computer noise. We're dealing with music, right? For hours.
As much as I love OS9 (and I loved OS7 even more), I'm not sure I can tolerate even single fan noise in G4 DA PSU these days. Even after switching to SSD system drives.
Unless you have a complete ProTools rig lying around, I'd say, get your friend a used Intel MacBook Pro or Mac Mini ($100 or so), used Firewire interface that fits his budget and be done with it. He will appreciate the silence. As to the software - there are tons of it around. Let him start with Garage Band, if he's noob.

I'm sorry, folks, for saying this on the OS9 forum.  :)
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: DieHard on March 01, 2023, 04:22:43 PM
If he actually did tracks with the Roland VS-1680, he should be able to export the tracks via burning CDs; he can then use any DAW, such as Cubase VST 5 and import all the audio, he can mix with effects and other plugins all "in the box"

He can also, get a cheap interface and add more audio tracks and/or MIDI (Virtual instrument tracks); the "Instant DAW" has all effects and Virtual instruments pre installed and ready to go...

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2716.0.html

if for some reason it's "way too complex" he can still imports his audio and go for the very easy "CuBasis" found here

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,845.0.html

UPDATE: I just read what Gary said... and I have to agree...

If he is really just starting, garage band is an excellent choice, hell it doesn't even have a complex mixer to deal with, I still recommend a "Mac Pro" 5,1 (get a 6 core 4,1 and upgrade firmware to 5,1) why... a Mac Pro

1. you can run almost every era of Mac OS 10.8 thru 10.13 cheaply and higher 10.14, 10.15 if you can afford a metal graphics card
2. Optical Drive (import the Roland tracks)
3. get it for about $200
4. Add cheap mechanical drives, 2.5" SSDs, RAID large SATA drives for Backup, use NVMe SSDs on $25 cards
5. Add tons of cheap RAM
6. Go with USB, Firewire, or even thunderbolt interfaces (with not so cheap) pCIe cards
7. Dual Ethernet
8. SO quiet you won't know it's on
9. Dual monitor support
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: darthnVader on March 01, 2023, 04:48:27 PM
So, he’s a guitar player with lots of money, guitars, a big Roland workstation he may (or may not) know how to use at all and “tons” of other stuff?

You’re asking a huge question here, you know. It’s really:
“Although I don’t really know anything about this stuff, how should I point this guy toward a (new to him) home recording situation with a bunch of equipment I haven’t identified yet using his unknown aptitude for it?”

AND (I’m guessing)
“I have an old MDD so why not start with that, buy the additional necessary interface(s) and other hardware to try to mate it to the much newer stuff he already has?”

AND
“Thereby force him to learn to operate the “obsolete” Mac OS 9 on vintage software and get comfortable enough on that to be creative before having him change up all of it entirely to move to newer hardware, operating system, workflow etc and learn all of that all over again.”

Sounds kinda nuts when I put it that way, huh?

Seriously… I know everybody has their own reasons for hanging on to OS 9 world - personally, I started there, got very efficient and comfortable with the workflow and I was never forced to deal with PoorTools and it works well for me - BUT I doubt I would advise anyone to start out there now - especially a guitar player (well, drummers even more so LOL) unless they have a high functioning brain and cannot afford much of anything at all so that all of the abandonware can make it all happen for them at very little cost. That does NOT seem to be the case here with what little info you’ve provided. Look… I know you know it takes a certain mentality to deal with all of the ins and outs and kinks and tangles of this old Macworld universe with it’s lack of support, unobtanium parts etc. Making someone learn all of that while simultaneously learning to use everything else and develop a comfortable work process at the same time just may be a perfect recipe for failure.

I’m a musician. I know lots of other musicians. In my too many years of experience, I have found that there is NO correlation between musical talent / aptitude and engineering proclivity. (damn, I just love to get to use words like that). Despite what Roland, Tascam, Avid and everyone else would have the world believe, it’s NOT just a piece of cake to wander into Guitar Center, walk out with some wiz-bang gizmos and software and become a YouTube star next week. It makes little sense to handicap ones progress and chances of success by starting in the unsupported past thereby making things more complicated and difficult that they need to be.

If you actually were an OS 9 DAW expert yourself and could guide him through the bumps and potholes of self-recording and using OS 9 today, interfacing it with all that he has and could save him from having to learn it all the hard way, it might be a different, workable situation, but based on what you’ve said so far, I strongly suggest you first find out what else hes has that's not unpacked yet, try to determine (as well as possible) if he's a guitarist, an engineer/producer both or neither and most importantly, how he expects to use it all and what he hopes and expects to get out of it all. Far more people fail at this than succeed and it's often because they simply start out incorrectly with unrealistic expectations that lead to early frustration with the process.

If you don't want to be helpful, just don't reply.

He has lots of money in the equipment and instruments he has and I have a MDD that will run OS very well. THIS IS AN OS 9 FORUM and I've done lots here to help people out, but if you don't want to help then just move along.

I here what you say about newer Mac's and software but this is the stuff we have and I know OS 9 is perfectly fine to use as a DAW, people still use it everyday.

He knows how to use his equipment and had a PC setup, but the PC meet some beer one night and that's gone and I don't help people with PC's other than to tell them to get a Mac if they want my help.

We've got a few Core2 Duo iMac's to work with later and hoping we can get him a new MacBook Pro soon as he learns some basics.

But I'm learning too, and I've never had an issue teaching people about what I know here on these forums so I don't really like the way you just took attitude with me for asking some basic questions.

 :o
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: darthnVader on March 01, 2023, 05:02:16 PM
If he actually did tracks with the Roland VS-1680, he should be able to export the tracks via burning CDs; he can then use any DAW, such as Cubase VST 5 and import all the audio, he can mix with effects and other plugins all "in the box"

He can also, get a cheap interface and add more audio tracks and/or MIDI (Virtual instrument tracks); the "Instant DAW" has all effects and Virtual instruments pre installed and ready to go...

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2716.0.html

if for some reason it's "way too complex" he can still imports his audio and go for the very easy "CuBasis" found here

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,845.0.html

UPDATE: I just read what Gary said... and I have to agree...

If he is really just starting, garage band is an excellent choice, hell it doesn't even have a complex mixer to deal with, I still recommend a "Mac Pro" 5,1 (get a 6 core 4,1 and upgrade firmware to 5,1) why... a Mac Pro

1. you can run almost every era of Mac OS 10.8 thru 10.13 cheaply and higher 10.14, 10.15 if you can afford a metal graphics card
2. Optical Drive (import the Roland tracks)
3. get it for about $200
4. Add cheap mechanical drives, 2.5" SSDs, RAID large SATA drives for Backup, use NVMe SSDs on $25 cards
5. Add tons of cheap RAM
6. Go with USB, Firewire, or even thunderbolt interfaces (with not so cheap) pCIe cards
7. Dual Ethernet
8. SO quiet you won't know it's on
9. Dual monitor support

See, I know nothing about this stuff other than some basics, I mean I know what a track is.....

The Roland has a SCSI port and I think it was made to handle SCSI ZIP, do you think it could do SCSI CDR? I have such things a SCSI 100MB ZIP anyway, but not the cables and external SCSI case.

I know how to use SCSI and that stuff, I was kind of hoping it could interface with the Mac somehow but I don't really see any ports for that other than the SCSI.

So that's why and what I'm asking, what is the best setup for this Mixing board with a MDD?

I'll have to ask him how he was doing thing with a PC to get a better understanding so I can ask better questions.

I also have SCSI cards that work with the MDD.

SCSI external cases are hard to find these days but I don't know anyway to get the stuff off the Roland and onto/into the Mac.


Is there another way?

I know the Keyboard has USB and a bunch of other ports.

I also still have the M-Audio FW Audiophile you gifted me, so maybe we need to just leap to Tiger as this was the Audiophile we never could get to work with OS 9, and I did try EVERYTHING to fix that issue with no luck.
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: IIO on March 01, 2023, 09:07:31 PM
I'm sorry, folks, for saying this on the OS9 forum.  :)

yeah, but you are right. a mac mini 1.25 with SSD and firewire interface is all he needs for now.

the requirement for dual processing, multiple monitors and whatever PCI extension cards does not exist for a beginner (or a for a guitarist), and when it comes later, he would be better off with a mac pro 2012.

the only thing a mini cant "do" is pro tools.

in DAWs other than protools he has to understand the difference between a track and a channel, whereas protools works exactly like a tape recorder, but this is not a problem.
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: smilesdavis on March 01, 2023, 09:40:45 PM
get a emagic emi/a/26m or 62m or get both

thats what i did for my silent update minis
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: GaryN on March 01, 2023, 11:20:00 PM
If you don't want to be helpful, just don't reply.

He has lots of money in the equipment and instruments he has and I have a MDD that will run OS very well. THIS IS AN OS 9 FORUM and I've done lots here to help people out, but if you don't want to help then just move along.

I here what you say about newer Mac's and software but this is the stuff we have and I know OS 9 is perfectly fine to use as a DAW, people still use it everyday.

He knows how to use his equipment and had a PC setup, but the PC meet some beer one night and that's gone and I don't help people with PC's other than to tell them to get a Mac if they want my help.

We've got a few Core2 Duo iMac's to work with later and hoping we can get him a new MacBook Pro soon as he learns some basics.

But I'm learning too, and I've never had an issue teaching people about what I know here on these forums so I don't really like the way you just took attitude with me for asking some basic questions.

 :o

I'm sorry you have taken offense at my carefully thought out, truly attempting to be helpful reply.
Granted, it's sometimes difficult to be 100% nuanced and carefully magnanimous so as not to offend anyone's ego while also communicating a complex thought in a simple Forum post.  At least without writing an even longer reply that I actually did take the considerable time to write - and I'm generally thought of around here as long-winded as it is.

If you found it totally unhelpful, perhaps you might re-read exactly what you wrote again, consider the information you provided and then re-read my reply and see how I tried to address everything based on what you provided.

If you feel I "took attitude" and offended your ego and / or ability, I'm sorry… certainly NOT my intention. I'll remind you however, that it was you who said "I know nothing of this stuff" and then even repeated later "See, I know nothing about this stuff other than some basics, I mean I know what a track is....."

** You have since added "he knows how to use his equipment" and how to spill beer into a computer. Also, that he's a Windoze guy which is even more reason not to make him learn OS 9 and then OSX as you throw ever-changing generations of hardware into the mix requiring the learning of more and more operating systems, DAW workflows, hardware, interfaces and procedures.

If all you wanted was encouragement and maybe a quick "Just go buy a xyz box, load up the Instant DAW and everything will just fall into place" answer, I apologize for trying to be realistic and address the entire subject rather than telling you to just make sure you get the correct kind of serial cables. Believe me, I know as well or better than anyone how easy it is to get so lost in making the tech work you don't actually produce anything! It's not easy switching hats over and over going from engineer to computer tech to musician to writer and back around again. That's probably the main reason I stay with my OS 9 setup. It took me a long time to get it all "just working" so that I could actually think about the damn music instead of constantly trying to figure out why "X keeps popping an error and Y just doesn't sound right. Maybe yet another plugin?…"

Don't forget it's going to be you that he turns to over and over and over as he tries to get a grip on the process and by your own admission, you're not going to be very helpful to him.
He's your "roomy" and justified or not, it's going to be you that he gets pissed at for steering him wrong and it'll be you having to live in that what is sure to be a really uncomfortable situation.
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: darthnVader on March 02, 2023, 07:23:05 AM
If you don't want to be helpful, just don't reply.

He has lots of money in the equipment and instruments he has and I have a MDD that will run OS very well. THIS IS AN OS 9 FORUM and I've done lots here to help people out, but if you don't want to help then just move along.

I here what you say about newer Mac's and software but this is the stuff we have and I know OS 9 is perfectly fine to use as a DAW, people still use it everyday.

He knows how to use his equipment and had a PC setup, but the PC meet some beer one night and that's gone and I don't help people with PC's other than to tell them to get a Mac if they want my help.

We've got a few Core2 Duo iMac's to work with later and hoping we can get him a new MacBook Pro soon as he learns some basics.

But I'm learning too, and I've never had an issue teaching people about what I know here on these forums so I don't really like the way you just took attitude with me for asking some basic questions.

 :o

I'm sorry you have taken offense at my carefully thought out, truly attempting to be helpful reply.
Granted, it's sometimes difficult to be 100% nuanced and carefully magnanimous so as not to offend anyone's ego while also communicating a complex thought in a simple Forum post.  At least without writing an even longer reply that I actually did take the considerable time to write - and I'm generally thought of around here as long-winded as it is.

If you found it totally unhelpful, perhaps you might re-read exactly what you wrote again, consider the information you provided and then re-read my reply and see how I tried to address everything based on what you provided.

If you feel I "took attitude" and offended your ego and / or ability, I'm sorry… certainly NOT my intention. I'll remind you however, that it was you who said "I know nothing of this stuff" and then even repeated later "See, I know nothing about this stuff other than some basics, I mean I know what a track is....."

** You have since added "he knows how to use his equipment" and how to spill beer into a computer. Also, that he's a Windoze guy which is even more reason not to make him learn OS 9 and then OSX as you throw ever-changing generations of hardware into the mix requiring the learning of more and more operating systems, DAW workflows, hardware, interfaces and procedures.

If all you wanted was encouragement and maybe a quick "Just go buy a xyz box, load up the Instant DAW and everything will just fall into place" answer, I apologize for trying to be realistic and address the entire subject rather than telling you to just make sure you get the correct kind of serial cables. Believe me, I know as well or better than anyone how easy it is to get so lost in making the tech work you don't actually produce anything! It's not easy switching hats over and over going from engineer to computer tech to musician to writer and back around again. That's probably the main reason I stay with my OS 9 setup. It took me a long time to get it all "just working" so that I could actually think about the damn music instead of constantly trying to figure out why "X keeps popping an error and Y just doesn't sound right. Maybe yet another plugin?…"

Don't forget it's going to be you that he turns to over and over and over as he tries to get a grip on the process and by your own admission, you're not going to be very helpful to him.
He's your "roomy" and justified or not, it's going to be you that he gets pissed at for steering him wrong and it'll be you having to live in that what is sure to be a really uncomfortable situation.

Anyway.

I guess the Roland was made to be a workstation on it's own and doesn't interface with a computer as I assume in my ignorance that it did.

It did come with a CDR SCSI device that he no longer has to get files and what not CD audio off the Roland, but he said that never quite worked correct for him even when it was new.

He does know how to use the Roland, but I think he's getting a little older and my not fully understand how it was intended to work with a computer.

Or it's maybe I just don't understand it.

He seemed to think that at one point someone had helped him set it up on a PC running CakeWalk and that Cakewalk could control the board from the PC.

Os Gary, DieHard, do you know if this sounds right, I mean it only has a MIDI out that could interface with a PC, but that doesn't really have a control interface does it?

He did at one point mix a few CD's on the Roland and manage to burn them to CD audio, but he said he just used the Roland and his instruments without the aid of a PC at all. Stuff sound good to me, as good as any pro studio mix on retail cds I've bought and owned.

Sadly my roomy Phil is a little older and maybe just misremember a few things, or I'm just not asking the right questions, or my understand of MIDI is just lacking.

He said he'd just reread the manual for the Roland, and I likely I need to read that too so I can ask better questions.

I had. assumed the Roland could be used in a Co-Op mode with a PC but that really isn't the case is it?

It's really more of a standalone device that can interface with MIDI and analog to mix music without any need for a PC, is that correct?
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: IIO on March 02, 2023, 09:30:12 AM
maybe it had an editor to remotely control it, and for sure it can do things like sending controllers and have its clock synced to a computer (because the computer is just yet another midi device), or maybe you can even use it as audio or midi interface.

and it is not so unlikely that musicians who own such things do not even know themselves what it is and how it works, and that is not limited to elderly people. :)
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: ssp3 on March 02, 2023, 09:43:47 AM
Here's discussion about it at some other place:
https://tinyurl.com/mtatavyr

Useful tool for it (PC):
http://www.thegoodlibrary.com/VSWaveExport.php

Syncing to sequencers - see attached. It is probably the same for VS-880 and VS-1680.
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: DieHard on March 02, 2023, 02:03:11 PM
Quote
I had. assumed the Roland could be used in a Co-Op mode with a PC but that really isn't the case is it?

It's really more of a standalone device that can interface with MIDI and analog to mix music without any need for a PC, is that correct?

OMG... yes... and NO... we are kinda getting off the beaten path, the "Roland could be used in a Co-Op mode with a PC" is true, but is even complicating things even more, the only advantage of this would be...

Quote
This document will explain different methods of synchronizing the VS-880 with many of the popular software
sequencing programs that are available. Synchronizing the VS-880 with a MIDI sequencer allows you to mix MIDI
instruments with other instruments without actually recording the MIDI instruments on the VS-880. This allows
you to record more non-MIDI tracks (vocals, guitar, etc.) on the VS-880. We will provide step by step instructions
for synchronizing the VS-880 to Cakewalk™, Performer™, Logic™, Vision™, and Cubase™

So this is useful if you are out of audio tracks on the Roland and don't want to record the audio from you MIDI synths or drum machines and eat up audio tracks on the Roland... you simply sync your DAW to the Roland and now it starts and stops your DAW and locks the internal roland song clock and the PC/mac clock together to play in perfect sync.  This is obviously an even more complex setup and a modern computer can handle all the audio/midi tracks with internal and external instruments and no need to learn this ancient stuff.  Remember, the Roland does NOT interface with MIDI as far as triggering sound modules, The "MIDI" was just used as a sync method with the Roland.  It's more common use was to sync to a drum machine (with pre-made song patters) and record the audio in stereo to the Roland perfect sync with the BPM of the Roland Song Tempo... this became your rhythm track.

The Roland is designed as an alternative to a having a mixer, audio interface, and computer.  Quality is quite good and you can make some great projects without learning a DAW and computer OS.  However, fully utilizing all the features of the roland is not as easy as it sounds; things like EQ, punch-in, etc can be hard on the little screen.  Also, you can actually create more tracks (or takes) of a vocal or guitar on the Roland then the stated 16 tracks, you make alternates and mark is as a "Virtual" track, meaning you can pick and choose which ones to mix when completing the project. 

Many computer-phobic musicians loved these machines back in the day and they were NOT cheap.  They were definitely superior to the many versions of the cheaper Tascam Porta-Studio series that were very popular.

If his SCSI CD drive works, the individual tracks can be exported as wave files and burt to a CD-R and then imported into any DAW via the computers CD drive.  Been a few years, but I did this many times myself for various clients and I did it all thru the menu of the Roland, no computer needed for the exporting.

Lastly, if you are recording and tracking a full band on the road then the Roland is still a great machine, but for a Guitarist/songwriter GarageBand is obviously invaluable when adding drums to your song, the whole "make external drum patterns, glue them together, and then record them" gets pretty annoying, I mean Gary and I will never get back the hours we wasted programming drums back in the day :(
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: GaryN on March 02, 2023, 04:09:53 PM
FAQ, facts and potential potholes re: the VS-1680

As suspected, it was never designed to and does not interface with a computer in any way

Rather, it was built to be a standalone workstation
    * The problem with that is (very common back in the day) the complexity and incomprehensible operating system and workflow that results from cramming lots of stuff into a small package at a targeted retail price
    ** The "squint at me for hours 'till you go blind" ancient LCD screen is an example of this

The only practical way to move anything either from or to it is via the SCSI port
    * This is likely to be a BIG problem since you say he no longer has the Roland CDR drive unless:
    ** You can find another working one in the wild (possible - you can now buy an entire VS on fleabay for $100-$150) - probably the only way since the manual (yup…I read it) says "You can connect a CD-R drive which is designated by Roland" to the SCSI…

It does have extensive MIDI implementation
    * It sends and receives sync to and from a sequencer and such
    ** With a good MIDI controller and time & patience to map the commands in the controller, you can get external control of almost everything - certainly enough to be helpful although such a controller ain't cheap
    *** There doesn't appear to be a Roland approved computer app of any kind for this function and while you could record MIDI control commands into a sequencer to get an automated mixdown of sorts, the VS doesn't appear to be capable of transmitting them itself in realtime - so that good outboard MIDI controller is mandatory.

You cannot directly mixdown to CD-R… AND:
    * Any audio tracks you DO export to CD will be in proprietary Roland RDAC format (because, why not…right?) and must be converted to standard WAVE files with the Windoze-only "VSWaveExport" app
    ** The only other digital mixdown is over the coaxial or S/PDIF connectors to DAT (ehhh) or to your computer via a decent sound card

CONCLUSION

I think the VS1680 and its brethren have officially reached EOL. It's a textbook example of obsolete equipment with almost no useful purpose going forward. You can now load even a halfway decent DAW app into a laptop, add a basic audio + MIDI interface and have more than twice the capabilities of the VS with fewer than half of the issues and get current support too.
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: darthnVader on March 02, 2023, 04:39:39 PM
So I'm a little confused still, sorry I'm a noob!

The VS-1680 can sync via SPIDF Optical to Logic Pro 8 for the Mac and that will allow some added functionality?

Maybe file transfer? or even just 2 track digital import into Logic Pro?

I think the VS-1680 can do everything Phil really wants to do as a stand a lone workstation he just really doesn't like the screen on the Roland or the interface controls for the menu system.

He seems to think Cakewalk will allow him a virtual interface on the PC's screen.

Anyone know if that is true or false?
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: DieHard on March 02, 2023, 05:08:04 PM
Think we are getting knee deep in the weeds...

1) If he has NO old projects that he wants to transfer, Just use the free Cakewalk (Bandlab) on a modern Windows PC and put the roland in the closet

2) If he has precious stuff that is on the VS Hard drive, then get a method to transfer the audio, THEN put the Roland in the closet

Gary is right, perhaps only the VS-2480 exports to .WAV, it's been a long time since I used these machines...

VS-2480CD

Quote
Exporting:

    Insert a blank CD-R or CD-RW into the CD or DVD drive.
    Press the CD-RW MASTERING button. Press F5 (TrkExp) for "Track Export". The TRACK EXPORT "Select Track" screen is displayed listing the tracks in the current song. The boxes to the left of the track represent recorded material.
    Use the TIME/VALUE dial to highlight the desired track.
    Press F4 (MARK) to select the track.
    Once tracks are selected, press F5 (NEXT) to go to the TRACK EXPORT "CD burning" screen. All previously marked tracks should be listed under SOURCE in the "Track" box.
    CURSOR to the "Verify" box and switch it to "On".
    CURSOR down to "CD Speed" and then use the TIME/VALUE dial to select "MAX".
    Press F5 (OK) to begin exporting the tracks as .WAV files to CD.
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: ssp3 on March 02, 2023, 06:36:12 PM
On the other hand, let him use his VS-1680 as it is. If an artist insists on using some specific piece of hardware, even if all others think that it's outdated, who are we, techies, arguing with? If it helps him to generate creative output, so be it.
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: smilesdavis on March 02, 2023, 08:47:44 PM
Hard disk recorders were a budget alternative to record 16 tracks in 1996 compared to a full pro tools iii system and everyone of them including ptiii are EOL.

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/roland-vs1680

If it hasnt saved you money to record a full band by now
Save yourself the headache and abandon it

That being said, i just got my 8100 recapped and its ready for some nubus ptiii action 🤣
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: GaryN on March 02, 2023, 09:32:08 PM
So I'm a little confused still, sorry I'm a noob!
So what? That's what Forums are for.

The VS-1680 can sync via SPIDF Optical to Logic Pro 8 for the Mac and that will allow some added functionality?
NO. S/PDIF carries digital audio only. No data - sync or otherwise.

Maybe file transfer? or even just 2 track digital import into Logic Pro?
Again, NO… and no "importing" either. The only thing you can do with it is play (realtime, not data transfer) stereo audio out into whatever - which could be an amp with a digital ADC for playback or even a computer (with an audio interface) running Logic.

I think the VS-1680 can do everything Phil really wants to do as a stand a lone workstation
The operative word here is "standalone".

He seems to think Cakewalk will allow him a virtual interface on the PC's screen.
Anyone know if that is true or false?
That is absolutely false. Neither Cakewalk or any other app will do that.

* Clarification: In my last reply I said "while you could record MIDI control commands into a sequencer to get an automated mixdown of sorts, the VS doesn't appear to be capable of transmitting them itself in realtime - so that good outboard MIDI controller is mandatory.

What I mean is: Although the VS will transmit control changes over MIDI as you make them, because of the layers-deep menu system for accessing EQ, effects and such, it's impossible to send many changes in real time other than simple fader changes, so lost of stuff becomes a game of "get the VS to spit the change then move it in the sequencer to the place where it's needed" which is almost as odd as it sounds as I'm typing it.

Once again, I can't say this too firmly:

A decent computer running Logic or any other contemporary DAW will do everything the VS can and do it much better without the hassle that comes with operating the VS.

One last time for luck:

A decent computer running Logic or any other contemporary DAW will do everything the VS can and do it much better without the hassle that comes with operating the VS.
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: IIO on March 02, 2023, 11:50:00 PM

NO. S/PDIF carries digital audio only. No data - sync or otherwise.


digital audio is a form of "sync", too, as soon as it supports certain types of drivers.
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: smilesdavis on March 03, 2023, 02:23:44 AM
Adat has sync signal
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: GaryN on March 03, 2023, 01:50:23 PM
NO. S/PDIF carries digital audio only. No data - sync or otherwise.

digital audio is a form of "sync", too, as soon as it supports certain types of drivers.

Adat has sync signal
Seriously you guys? OK… Is this acceptable?

NO. The S/PDIF port on the VS-1680 carries digital audio only. No data - sync or otherwise.
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: daddyjeff on March 03, 2023, 05:18:12 PM
Hey guys help me out, my roomy has a bunch of music equipment and I want to help him setup an OS 9 DAW, but I know nothing of this stuff.

The main equipment he has is a Roland VS-1680 and a Yamaha YPG-535 and some other mixing boards we haven't unpacked yet along with 10's of high end guitars.

Looking to set him up with OS 9 on a dual 867Mhz MDD just to get his feet wet in some of the simpler software before we move hm to the latter stuff that has way too many options to learn for a noob if that makes sense to you guys?

It really is not difficult to get the idea when you use a computer that thousands of musicians used in the world back in the 2000s, the G4 was very top and great productions were made, from os9 and panther, prince had a G4 for his musical ideas in the 2000s.

I discovered that to have a multitrack recorder with great features I did not need to spend 5000 dollars on studio equipment, no really no, never do that, these expensive things are only for those who know how to handle everything, you don't need an analog 1176 to sound warm and professional.

the music creator, he doesn't need a lot of money to do what he wants, and if he has a lot of equipment for the studio he just has to use that equipment on a mac with os9 or whatever he likes best.

I use mac os9 because the operating system enjoyed a lot of emerging software from the 2000s, the first versions of everything we know today, everything is really very useful and very easy, there are things that today are complicated and after paying a fortune you you find that it is not what you were looking for, and this happened to me before and I decided to do things with metasynth, artmatic, pro tools, and standalone synthesizers with a recorder like ABsynth that I love this thing, because I get very unique sounds, too I really like FM7, I'm a big fan of this synthesizer.

my G4 has the stock sound card and I can route the audio output to the input of my DIGI001, when I want to use FM7 or anything that doesn't work with asio or problems of some kind and the sound is not bad at all, really It does it without noise, everything is very clean.

So I would just recommend that your friend join os9, install a solo DAW and start working on things with his guitars.  ;D

Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: ssp3 on March 03, 2023, 07:14:09 PM
Late Walter Sear had something to say about it.  8)

High Tech, Low Quality: Studio Gadgets Cannot Replace Professional Production(Billboard Editorial - June 19, 2004)
http://searsound.com/pdf/hightech_lowquality.pdf

http://searsound.com/pdf/surgery.pdf

http://searsound.com/clients.html
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: rvense on March 03, 2023, 11:17:38 PM
NO. S/PDIF carries digital audio only. No data - sync or otherwise.

digital audio is a form of "sync", too, as soon as it supports certain types of drivers.

Adat has sync signal
Seriously you guys? OK… Is this acceptable?

NO. The S/PDIF port on the VS-1680 carries digital audio only. No data - sync or otherwise.

It depends what you mean by sync. There is no such thing as a digital audio connection without converter clock sync. In ADAT and S/PDIF, this clock is part of the audio stream and can be recovered from it. If you connect the digital output of the 1680 to a digital input on your soundcard, you will need to set the soundcard to external clock sync to get a good recording, otherwise the converter clocks will be unsychronized and it'll glitch.

But it's of course true that there's no transport sync etc. in S/PDIF. For that you'd use MIDI, and I'd be surprised if 1680 isn't perfectly capable of it, since it's from an era when slaving an ADAT or similar was a common thing.
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: IIO on March 04, 2023, 01:46:12 AM
Adat has sync signal

even better, from most digital audio formats you can use the audio stream to derive a word clock signal from.

adat is one of them but it works the same way with spdif or aes/ebu.

and here is the fun part: under OSX you need to connect word clock between two linked firewire interfaces, but under MacOS9 it works via the firewire cable. :)
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: daddyjeff on March 04, 2023, 09:10:47 AM
Adat has sync signal

even better, from most digital audio formats you can use the audio stream to derive a word clock signal from.

adat is one of them but it works the same way with spdif or aes/ebu.

and here is the fun part: under OSX you need to connect word clock between two linked firewire interfaces, but under MacOS9 it works via the firewire cable. :)

yes, os9 really has these interesting things, many details more suitable for the hardware of its time.  -afro-
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: daddyjeff on March 04, 2023, 10:47:57 AM
Late Walter Sear had something to say about it.  8)

High Tech, Low Quality: Studio Gadgets Cannot Replace Professional Production(Billboard Editorial - June 19, 2004)
http://searsound.com/pdf/hightech_lowquality.pdf

http://searsound.com/pdf/surgery.pdf

http://searsound.com/clients.html

If I am also in that idea, where music technology will not make you a better musician. No AI will make you more humanly better, and within the limits of humanity, the capable music of a person will be valued, not what a person is capable of programming an AI

I remember that in the 90s with the DATs from alesis, tascam, fostex... great things could be done, to record on 8 tracks.

Dj Shadow (josh davis) used an Alesis DAT to record his most famous album Entroducing and everything was recorded as a one hour DJ session for 8 separate tracks, this was then taken to a more professional studio and prepared to make his best version of all that he recorded, that's right, he did everything like that, with a DJ equipment with Akai MPC-60, a Technics 1200+mixer, and an Alesis ADAT.

(DJ Shadow could never get over him, perhaps because he stopped using that limited equipment that made him bring out the best creative inner musician in him.)

Music technology with limitations makes the person use different uses with their imagination and when that is missing, it is no longer as good or interesting, there is less interpretative quality in everything musical and the same results no longer come out... SP1200 is music technology, casio cz101 too, but it's not the same as being played by vangelis or dj muggs, bob marley or RZA (it's just sarcasm)  -afro-

That sampler is more limited than the garage band on your iphone but SP1200 lets you be more of a musician.

Sometimes if you change your tools and your ways of composing you can fail 100%.

No, no operating system makes you a better musician, but if it gives you options to be a little more hard-working and not expect everything to be done by the computer, the sampler or the synthesizer, well, perhaps the merit and effort that you put in is even more valuable. It means creating that music and immortalizing it.

the famous cycling74 ¨M¨ software was another revolution, which was never something very famous, but MAX offered many esoteric things that you could do in the 2000´s, giving different uses to an MS20.

so os9 can do as much as you want to do, it's really nothing new, any noiser with a modular can do the same with Reaktor, reason or Max.

Everything will depend on the attitude you have towards music and technology.  -afro-
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: GaryN on March 04, 2023, 01:50:44 PM
Maybe you guys should just get a room. ::)

The QUESTION was:
The VS-1680 can sync via SPIDF Optical to Logic Pro 8 for the Mac and that will allow some added functionality?
Maybe file transfer? or even just 2 track digital import into Logic Pro?
The ANSWER was:
NO. S/PDIF carries digital audio only. No data - sync or otherwise.
As in: No, you can't get sync and/or control signals such as MTC into and/or out of the S/PDIF connections on the VS-1680 and/or transfer files and/or import audio to Logic and/or other DAW on a Mac.

** Note to rvense: You're correct in that the VS will happily spit MTC over MIDI for whatever to sync to. However, the question and answer was regarding the S/PDIF port.
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: IIO on March 04, 2023, 02:27:51 PM
if anyone wants to know how to do make use of the clock signal contained in the spdif signal to record from or to the roland please refer to the manual. because it is all described there how to select the correct clock source to sync the decive to other devices.

on the internet there is just too much misinformation about it. :P
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: DieHard on March 04, 2023, 02:52:54 PM
OK, since we all have opinions, I can't help but make this absolutely "muddy" thread even worse...
Quote
Late Walter Sear had something to say about it

It 2004, I would have agreed, but in 2023... Nope.  He definitely sounded bitter about "shooting himself in the foot" with his music industry adopting newer technologies and he also sounded a little "pissed off" about project musicians owning a "project studio"  His "Do brain surgery at home" yada yada yada was obviously a reference to "do recordings at home."  He obviously thought of himself as a brain surgeon (the profession) and now mere mortals were recording at home, god forbid they were doing what he was trained to do, and not paying studio time for it.

I say fuck Walter Sear, I really don't care what or who he recorded.  This new "virtual" audio recording world that he so "despised" was very exciting to me. Walter couldn't stop it and he focused on the negative.  Did it mean that a lot of untalented people, now made "virtual music" that was pale in comparison to his "glory day" era ?  Yeah, sure, whatever, but this put semi-pro recording studios in reach of many talented people also, not everyone was a hack... and what about "not so great" musicians having some inexpensive fun :)

In 2002, I had 2 fairly close friends in NYC that owned real studios that recorded Blondie, Joan Jett, and many more and at that time I could not afford recording in their studios, although I did get a few "free" or barter sessions for swapping PC consulting time.  I remember a few dinner and lunch discussions were they they were "spooked" about where things were going... and that the days of making albums as they were accustomed to... were over... and yes, they were right.  I helped run the Steinberg booth at the Mac Expo in 2000 in NYC so they would often ask me my opinion if they had anything to worry about and I would say, "There will always be a market that for a Pro studio that has masted the use of Telefunken Mics, a huge piano room, and a nice live Drum setup; but the clientele will be shrinking about 80 to 90 percent in the next 10 years"  Don't know the real figures, but whatever.

I had a client, who was also a friend, Johnny Maestro, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Brooklyn_Bridge_(band), and he was very excited about recording at home and using PCs with MIDI (Voyetra) and handing his label a finished song.  Did Walter think Johnny was un-talented for using the new technology ?  I mean this guy sang "16 Candles" for god sakes [youtube]NlXlZb18F20[/youtube]

Johnny was a monster on vocals and he was very excited about all the new technology.  The point being, advances in technology did not kill the music, just the industry.  Maybe it needed some changes anyway.  I bet Walter made more money recording the sessions than many of the musicians he recorded. 

Now fast forward to today, Roland cloud (virtual) sounds pretty damn close to the "real" thing.  Walter's Tuba instrument has been sampled to the point that it probably sounds as good if not better than him playing it. If Walter was that mad in 2004, imagine when ChatGP writes the next #1 single in 2023, lol. 

Lastly, back to the original topic.  Think your buddy is still better off with a newer machine and newer OS than OS9 since he will not have to put as much more time in the learning aspect.  Don't get me wrong, I love OS 9 and music, hell I started this site, but you have to weigh out how much time and effort he wants to put in on the technician side vs the musician side.
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: daddyjeff on March 04, 2023, 03:32:54 PM
if anyone wants to know how to do make use of the clock signal contained in the spdif signal to record from or to the roland please refer to the manual. because it is all described there how to select the correct clock source to sync the decive to other devices.

on the internet there is just too much misinformation about it. :P

Yes, a lot of shit information, pure garbage and quite useless for mac os9 issues.
that's why we walk in anthropology os9. 🤪
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: daddyjeff on March 04, 2023, 03:59:58 PM
Chat GPT is going to be bought by Sony and will let it die of laughter, AI companies are going to have their days numbered.

Who wants a new vinyl of a new song from a dead man?

I don't, and I really don't care that it's the same, I never bought those unreleased songs because they already had commercial traps to scratch people's money.

fuck AI and Chat GPT  :P
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: GaryN on March 04, 2023, 04:15:02 PM
if anyone wants to know how to do make use of the clock signal contained in the spdif signal to record from or to the roland please refer to the manual. because it is all described there how to select the correct clock source to sync the decive to other devices.

on the internet there is just too much misinformation about it. :P

Yes, a lot of shit information, pure garbage and quite useless for mac os9 issues.
that's why we walk in anthropology os9. 🤪

The correct way to record from a S/PDIF output is to……………………  Plug it into a S/PDIF input.

There is not so much misinformation as there is is just incorrnfjinripwrjkpsnw  ARRRGH!

NO!  MUST…………LET…………THIS…………DAMN…………THING…………DIE !!
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: daddyjeff on March 04, 2023, 04:40:32 PM
if anyone wants to know how to do make use of the clock signal contained in the spdif signal to record from or to the roland please refer to the manual. because it is all described there how to select the correct clock source to sync the decive to other devices.

on the internet there is just too much misinformation about it. :P

Yes, a lot of shit information, pure garbage and quite useless for mac os9 issues.
that's why we walk in anthropology os9. 🤪

The correct way to record from a S/PDIF output is to……………………  Plug it into a S/PDIF input.

There is not so much misinformation as there is is just incorrnfjinripwrjkpsnw  ARRRGH!

NO!  MUST…………LET…………THIS…………DAMN…………THING…………DIE !!

(https://revistas.elheraldo.co/sites/default/files/styles/640x360/public/2014/11/05/articulo/shutterstock_151909886_copia.jpg?itok=WCJcHUoA)
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: ssp3 on March 04, 2023, 04:52:54 PM
The correct way to record from a S/PDIF output is to……………………  Plug it into a S/PDIF input.

And then, if your device's (on receiving side) clock source has been set to analog input, some different sample rate or Word Clock, you get either glitches or nothing at all.

Plugging in alone might not always work, unless the receiving device has been made so idiot proof, that it always auto-configures itself.

As IIO said - consult the manual.
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: smilesdavis on March 05, 2023, 12:03:12 AM
if anyone wants to know how to do make use of the clock signal contained in the spdif signal to record from or to the roland please refer to the manual. because it is all described there how to select the correct clock source to sync the decive to other devices.

on the internet there is just too much misinformation about it. :P

Yes, a lot of shit information, pure garbage and quite useless for mac os9 issues.
that's why we walk in anthropology os9. 🤪

The correct way to record from a S/PDIF output is to……………………  Plug it into a S/PDIF input.

There is not so much misinformation as there is is just incorrnfjinripwrjkpsnw  ARRRGH!

NO!  MUST…………LET…………THIS…………DAMN…………THING…………DIE !!

sound tools, audiomedia  and pro tools I would never be possible without S/PDIF. i cant live without it.
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: darthnVader on March 05, 2023, 12:23:57 AM
Ok, I'm trying to keep up.

So is anyone using a AppleSoC MacBook Pro and Logic with some USB equipment for some nice "home" studio?

Would the M2 13" MBP be ok?

Could anyone recommend a setup for this to interface with Logic and the Yamaha YPG-53 as well as all the needed analog stuff for the Mics and analog instruments?

Hoping to come in around a $1000 for the interfaces and preamps if they are needed, is that anywhere near realistic?

Logic is $199 on the App Store, should I look at something else software wise for the Mac? or what other software might we need to go with Logic.

My M2 MacBook came in around $1600, so right now I'm hoping to come in around $2800 to make the old man happy with a new setup and I'll just see what I can do with his VS system and the equipment I have just for me to learn how some of this old stuff worked back in the day.

You guys know I love PPC, so I already found an external SCSI CDR with a woking drive and all the needed cables for the VS and my SCSI Mac's. Had to pull the trigger as these things with the cable are so rare now.

I'll get you a list of his other equipment soon, hoping you can tell me what we can use and what we just want to store.

Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: darthnVader on March 05, 2023, 06:00:49 AM
Maybe you guys should just get a room. ::)

The QUESTION was:
The VS-1680 can sync via SPIDF Optical to Logic Pro 8 for the Mac and that will allow some added functionality?
Maybe file transfer? or even just 2 track digital import into Logic Pro?
The ANSWER was:
NO. S/PDIF carries digital audio only. No data - sync or otherwise.
As in: No, you can't get sync and/or control signals such as MTC into and/or out of the S/PDIF connections on the VS-1680 and/or transfer files and/or import audio to Logic and/or other DAW on a Mac.

** Note to rvense: You're correct in that the VS will happily spit MTC over MIDI for whatever to sync to. However, the question and answer was regarding the S/PDIF port.

I'm still quite confused, the SPDIF can't be recorded?

Mix a song on the VS "down mixed" to 2 ch stereo audio and capture the digital stream on a computer via SPDIF then import that into Logic or GB?

Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: ssp3 on March 05, 2023, 08:51:43 AM
I'm still quite confused, the SPDIF can't be recorded?
It can.
Quote
Mix a song on the VS "down mixed" to 2 ch stereo audio and capture the digital stream on a computer via SPDIF then import that into Logic or GB?
Yes.

Or capture separate tracks in pairs via SPDIF in Logic and mix there. This might be somewhat complicated (digital output assignment in VS-1680) and will require track relative position adjustment in Logic.
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: darthnVader on March 05, 2023, 01:54:40 PM
So what is MTC and ADAT?

Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: darthnVader on March 05, 2023, 02:14:19 PM
Who knows anything about licensing of Logic Pro 8?

If I buy a used copy that the license has already been used am I going to have issues?

I'd rather use Logic Pro 7 but the XS Key is expensive, hard to find, and prone to failure.

I did find some info about syncing MIDI from the VS-1680 to Logic Pro, but it's pretty sparse.

Quote
Hello everyone! This is my first post!

After many hours going through various forums, I finally got my VS-1680 to work with Logic Pro X as a MIDI controller! I can use faders to control the ones onscreen but here is the issue I am having:

While the faders do move in Logic as I move them physically on the VS-1680, they are not lined up right (ex. 0 db on the board is about 2.0 db in Logic). They also do not line up with the right tracks in Logic (ex. faders 1-7 on the VS-1680 all control the master on Logic, master on VS-1680 controls nothing). I can control ONLY the master track in Logic using sliders 1-7 on the VS-1680. The rest of the sliders do nothing and don't correspond to any of my tracks in Logic, even if I select them in the program.

Does anyone else know of a way to fix this? Also the faders seem to be the ONLY thing that sends a signal to Logic. The dials do nothing. I have marked with paper where the faders correspond in Logic for now but thought it was worth a shot to try and figure out.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: ssp3 on March 05, 2023, 02:50:46 PM
So what is MTC..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIDI_timecode
Quote
..and ADAT?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADAT
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: ssp3 on March 05, 2023, 03:35:22 PM
Would the M2 13" MBP be ok?

1. 13" display might turn out to be too small for Logic.
2. When it comes to audio, Apple Silicon is uncharted waters.

Quote
Hoping to come in around a $1000 for the interfaces and preamps..
Quote
Logic is $199 on the App Store..
Quote
..I'm hoping to come in around $2800 to make the old man happy

Does it all has to be new and shiny?
If you ask me, that's money spent on the wrong end.
What's most important tool for the musician? Right, his instrument.
What's next important tool, if he wants to record himself as realistically as possible and if he's not just MIDI keyboard player? Microphone(s)!
Then come microphone preamp(s).
Then A to D converters (interface).
And only then computer and software.

Given the 2.8k budget, this is what I would do.
1. I would buy used, early version of Metric Halo ULN-8 (with Firewire). It was one of the best in its day and had all bells and whistles. And it was expensive. Used around 1.5k or so.
https://mhsecure.com/metric_halo/products/press-releases/267-metric-halo-introduces-uln-8-flagship-converterprocessorpreampinterface.html
High caliber pro's still use it to this day.
2. I would still recommend used MacMini, if the rig doesn't have to be moved around. Not later than 2012 model, because of upgradeability, or better yet, the 2011 model with onboard graphics card. Upgrade it with 2 SSD drives and 16GB of RAM. $100+/- plus drives and RAM.
3. Buy a decent monitor. Or two.
4. If it has to be moved around, buy old-ish MacBook Pro equipped with Firewire.
5. If you want it all, get the same age Mac Pro.
6. Start with simple software. Garage Band, Cubasis ... something like that. Upgrade to full blown stuff only when you/he have mastered the simpler things.
7. Still have some $$ in the pocket.  :)
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: daddyjeff on March 05, 2023, 05:10:23 PM
Maybe you guys should just get a room. ::)

The QUESTION was:
The VS-1680 can sync via SPIDF Optical to Logic Pro 8 for the Mac and that will allow some added functionality?
Maybe file transfer? or even just 2 track digital import into Logic Pro?
The ANSWER was:
NO. S/PDIF carries digital audio only. No data - sync or otherwise.
As in: No, you can't get sync and/or control signals such as MTC into and/or out of the S/PDIF connections on the VS-1680 and/or transfer files and/or import audio to Logic and/or other DAW on a Mac.

** Note to rvense: You're correct in that the VS will happily spit MTC over MIDI for whatever to sync to. However, the question and answer was regarding the S/PDIF port.

I'm still quite confused, the SPDIF can't be recorded?

Mix a song on the VS "down mixed" to 2 ch stereo audio and capture the digital stream on a computer via SPDIF then import that into Logic or GB?

It consists of a hardware-level protocol for the transmission of PCM-modulated digital audio signals between stereophonic devices and components.

S/PDIF, initially used in CD players (a device jointly developed by Sony and Philips engineers), has spread to most modern audio devices; such as DVD players (in their audio outputs), Minidisc, DTT decoders, the most modern computer sound cards and, in general, any device that has an "optical output".

It is also widely used in car audio systems, where it replaces the usual copper wiring with a single fiber optic cable, immune to electrical noise.

The S/PDIF specifications allow various types of cables and connectors, depending on the device in which it is used. These can be based on coaxial cable, using RCA connectors in this case, or on fiber optics, where the connectors will be of the TOSLINK type (also known as optical EIAJ). The use of the optical version is more widespread due to its commented immunity to electrical noise. There are adapters for the interconnection of both systems, which usually require external power.

S/PDIF was developed from a standard used in professional audio systems, known as AES/EBU, widely used in DAT systems and in audio transmission in professional recording studios.

At the S/PDIF protocol level it is identical, but the connectors and cables change. XLR type connectors were replaced by RCA and TOSLINK, depending on the transmission technology, cheaper and easier to use.

As for the cable, the shielded twisted pair cable of 110 Ω (ohms) of balanced line impedance is replaced by the 75 Ω coaxial cable, much more widespread and cheaper, or by optical fiber.
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: DieHard on March 05, 2023, 08:39:15 PM
Quote
Who knows anything about licensing of Logic Pro 8?

If I buy a used copy that the license has already been used am I going to have issues?

I'd rather use Logic Pro 7 but the XS Key is expensive, hard to find, and prone to failure.

I did find some info about syncing MIDI from the VS-1680 to Logic Pro, but it's pretty sparse.

You can actually go all the way up to Logic pro 9, but the earliest version, (Leopard and Logic 9.0.2) on Power PC, no UBS dongle needed
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: darthnVader on March 06, 2023, 03:52:50 AM
Would the M2 13" MBP be ok?

1. 13" display might turn out to be too small for Logic.
2. When it comes to audio, Apple Silicon is uncharted waters.

Quote
Hoping to come in around a $1000 for the interfaces and preamps..
Quote
Logic is $199 on the App Store..
Quote
..I'm hoping to come in around $2800 to make the old man happy

Does it all has to be new and shiny?
If you ask me, that's money spent on the wrong end.
What's most important tool for the musician? Right, his instrument.
What's next important tool, if he wants to record himself as realistically as possible and if he's not just MIDI keyboard player? Microphone(s)!
Then come microphone preamp(s).
Then A to D converters (interface).
And only then computer and software.

Given the 2.8k budget, this is what I would do.
1. I would buy used, early version of Metric Halo ULN-8 (with Firewire). It was one of the best in its day and had all bells and whistles. And it was expensive. Used around 1.5k or so.
https://mhsecure.com/metric_halo/products/press-releases/267-metric-halo-introduces-uln-8-flagship-converterprocessorpreampinterface.html
High caliber pro's still use it to this day.
2. I would still recommend used MacMini, if the rig doesn't have to be moved around. Not later than 2012 model, because of upgradeability, or better yet, the 2011 model with onboard graphics card. Upgrade it with 2 SSD drives and 16GB of RAM. $100+/- plus drives and RAM.
3. Buy a decent monitor. Or two.
4. If it has to be moved around, buy old-ish MacBook Pro equipped with Firewire.
5. If you want it all, get the same age Mac Pro.
6. Start with simple software. Garage Band, Cubasis ... something like that. Upgrade to full blown stuff only when you/he have mastered the simpler things.
7. Still have some $$ in the pocket.  :)

Thanks for the replies everyone, the ULN-8 seems to be a little hard to find under about $2k.

Something like the AVID MBox Pro would seem to fit better, but there doesn't seem to be support passed 10.14.x on the macOS.

I just hate the blow the entire budget on the interface side, I guess I figure may as well let the old man get a new Mac out of the deal.

Is there anything interface wise that has at least 8 input channels, MIDI, and 2 to 4 Mic inputs that anyone can recommend in the $500-$1k range.

I hear what you are saying about ASoC, plugins are not ready yet, right?

Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: DieHard on March 06, 2023, 09:17:34 AM
OK, so just to clarify if someone else gets here searching for VS-1680 info...

Quote
The VS-1680 can sync via SPIDF Optical to Logic Pro 8 for the Mac and that will allow some added functionality?
Like Gary said, No; the S/PDIF cannot be used to Sync the device to anything, it can transfer digital audio (stereo only) to and from other devices, since the S/PDIF signal combines both the clock and audio info in the same signal, no other cables (like Word Clock) are needed; important to note that this has to be done in real time and...

Quote
Maybe file transfer? or even just 2 track digital import into Logic Pro?
Nope, no file transfer at all, literally play and record one track at a time

Quote
I'm still quite confused, the SPDIF can't be recorded?
Yes, as stated, but in real time, one track at a time

Quote
Mix a song on the VS "down mixed" to 2 ch stereo audio and capture the digital stream on a computer via SPDIF then import that into Logic or GB?

I never really got an answer as to whether or not your friend had a bunch of projects on his machine, but if he does, and you can't burn to CDs, this sounds faster and better...

Quote
One of the things that I wanted to do was to import and export WAV files using the Roland VS-1680. After some research and testing, I found a workflow that is extremely fast and quite easy. The method I use is to connect an external Zip drive to the back of the VS-1680. In my Windows 7 computer I also have an internal Zip drive. With all the gear I have, I have found it critical to have a few Zip drives as they seem to work with a lot of different gear, especially with early Roland products.

To export WAV files, I simply save the song I am working on to an external Epson ZIP drive using the Roland VS-1680. It’s fast and super easy to do using the SHIFT > F1 command to save the song. Then I take out the disk and walk into an adjacent room where I have my desktop computer and insert the Zip disk into an internal zip drive that I ripped from a spare Roland SP-808. After that, I fire up a program called VS WAVE Exporter that allowed me to select and export the song with all the tracks to WAV format. Then you can use your favorite DAW to load the WAV files and further mix or tweak the song. Everything lined up great. Later you can burn to CD which is probably faster than using the VS-1680.
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: darthnVader on March 06, 2023, 10:11:03 AM


I never really got an answer as to whether or not your friend had a bunch of projects on his machine, but if he does, and you can't burn to CDs, this sounds faster and better...



Sorry, he doesn't have anything saved on this unit other than one old beat track. He lost another VS-1680 in a fire, so that stuff is gone, but thanks for the clarifications.

I'll post back when I get a chance to test the SCSI CDR I ordered to let people know how it works.

Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: darthnVader on March 06, 2023, 11:16:49 AM
I bid on a AVID MBOX 3 PRO and I'm likely to win it, but I didn't notice it only has 4 inputs and two of those a Mic inputs.

However it does have the breakout cable for SPDIF/MIDI that I was having an issue finding.

Likely I'l buy the Avid MBox Pro 8x8 and use the breakout cable with that.

It's just a used item but really for $50 it should be just as good with Logic or GB as the VS system is now as a stand-a-lone.

Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: mrhappy on March 07, 2023, 08:14:04 AM
I STILL have a 1680, though I haven't fired it up in years! ;D I thought it sounded quite good and I became 'reasonably' adept  getting around on it.

My main use for it was to track parts at home and later transfer those parts at a bigger studio by synching the 1680, initially to ADATs and then later ProTools. Roland made a nice travel case for that unit so it was easy to pack it up and drag it around. I remember it being mostly painless getting it to synch up for transfers. I think it was synched using MTC as I don't remember any SMPTE involved. The converters in the 1680 sounded good enough to skip S/PDIF and I THINK we could transfer more tracks at once that way?... a little foggy there! ;D

The 1680 worked great for location recording too so it was used for things like choirs, various pianos, Hammond organs, etc. Nowadays that would be laptop territory but 20+ years ago it was a GREAT package that STILL wouldn't be much bigger than a laptop rig.

I only used the SCSI CDR for backups... could be fun to dig into that storage box and see what's there... NOT!! ;D

They came out with Logic-VS that I tried briefly but all I had that would run it was a hand-me-down windows laptop and besides not be being familiar with Logic, it was painfully slow on that rig. Once Digidesign released the 001, I inherited the G4-400 from the studio and began using ProTools LE for recording/ transfers.

As far as the 1680 goes, I wouldn't hesitate to use it along side the newer 'fancy' gear of today but I wouldn't point anybody in that direction if they didn't already have one. I still reflect fondly on the 1680 and I'm hopeful that maybe someday soon I'll find a reason to re-integrate it into my pile of 'obsolete' stuff that I still use! Haha! ;D



Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: darthnVader on March 08, 2023, 07:25:11 AM
I did get Logic Pro 8 to work as the master in MIDI mode to the VS-1680, but I'm just unsure how I am to use this.

Am I supposed to use it in conjunction with the SPDIF?

Here is some info I can find about Logic-Audio 3.5 on the Mac and Logic Pro 8 on the Mac with the Roland.

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/603600/Roland-Vs-1680.html?page=208

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3094637

Then this one post where someone claims to have gotten control of the sliders in Logic Pro X???

Quote
Hello everyone! This is my first post!

After many hours going through various forums, I finally got my VS-1680 to work with Logic Pro X as a MIDI controller! I can use faders to control the ones onscreen but here is the issue I am having:

While the faders do move in Logic as I move them physically on the VS-1680, they are not lined up right (ex. 0 db on the board is about 2.0 db in Logic). They also do not line up with the right tracks in Logic (ex. faders 1-7 on the VS-1680 all control the master on Logic, master on VS-1680 controls nothing). I can control ONLY the master track in Logic using sliders 1-7 on the VS-1680. The rest of the sliders do nothing and don't correspond to any of my tracks in Logic, even if I select them in the program.

Does anyone else know of a way to fix this? Also the faders seem to be the ONLY thing that sends a signal to Logic. The dials do nothing. I have marked with paper where the faders correspond in Logic for now but thought it was worth a shot to try and figure out.

Thanks!


Sadly I can't seem to register at VS-Planet??

http://www.vsplanet.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1684982

Anyone ever gotten this stuff to work with the Roland and a computer?

Also does anyone know where I can get a legal copy of Cakewalk 8, maybe someone here still has one?

So far I just gotten the play and stop buttons in LP8 to master the VS, but I can't figure how to set the one audio saved to the VS to play with this setup.
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: darthnVader on March 08, 2023, 11:13:33 AM
Quote
The VS-1680 can send and receive mixer settings and fadermovements as MIDI messages. You can use an external MIDIcontroller to control the VS-1680's faders

This is what I am trying to figure out how to do with Logic.

Also no joy on my SCSI CD-R only a few models were supported be Roland and they are way more used than I'd ever pay for one, tho I'm sure I could hack the Roland firmware to support other drives, I'll likely just use a DAT/Jazz/ or Zip drive, or an external SCSI HD.

Quote
The Following Burners are Roland Compatible.

VS-CDR I
VS-CDR II
VS-CDR III

From Plextor, The following from the Plexwriter series.

PX-W4220
PX-W8220 T/S
PX-W124TS
PX-1210TS
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: GaryN on March 08, 2023, 02:29:19 PM
Aarrrgh !
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: darthnVader on March 08, 2023, 06:23:21 PM
Aarrrgh !

How do you think I feel.

So close, yet so far away, but I did order some newer equipment that will likely do what Phil really wants to do. I'm just an addict to old tech and that makes me just want to figure how to play with this old stuff and get it to work as well as it can.
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: smilesdavis on March 09, 2023, 01:33:01 AM
There was a version of logic for those rolands
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: chrisNova777 on March 09, 2023, 04:30:02 AM
There was a version of logic for those rolands

indeeed
but its just a cut down freebie LE version of Logic 3/4 better to just run logic 5.x

also attached is a pdf document with instructions on syncing between the VS units + the bundled logic version
the VS units were used by lots of big name producers... like masters at work (kenny dope + louie vega)

(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6702.0;attach=11875;image)
Quote
Logic VS
Once launched, Logic VS will automatically look for a VS recorder connected to your computer via a MIDI interface;
a warning message appears if Logic VS cannot find a VS unit connected.
If this occurs, verify MIDI settings on the VS recorder and check that your interface is properly installed.

MMC
choose to transmit MMC commands by click-holding the Sync button on the Transport window.

SOS Article dates
VS880 Digital Multitracker & VS8F1 Effects Board: March 1996
VS880 V-Xpanded Digital Multitracker: May 1997
VS880 S2: CD-writing Upgrade: January 1998
VS840 Digital Multitracker: May 1998
VS1680 Digital Multitracker: June 1998
VS1880 Digital Multitracker: July 2000
VS2480 Digital Multitracker: September 2001
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: chrisNova777 on March 09, 2023, 04:39:25 AM

The ANSWER was:
NO. S/PDIF carries digital audio only. No data - sync or otherwise.
As in: No, you can't get sync and/or control signals such as MTC into and/or out of the S/PDIF connections on the VS-1680 and/or transfer files and/or import audio to Logic and/or other DAW on a Mac.


Not True from what ive researched.

"The SPDIF stream carries data AND clock timing" https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/spdif-code.383279/
which is why its neccessary to link two PCI audio multi-cards using a SPDIF cable to get them to sync up and act as one interface in ableton live on os9

Quote
https://gearspace.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/172143-spdif-vs-word-clock-question.html
Quote:is there anything inherently shaky in clocking through a SPDIF connection?
Yes. S/PDIF is a horrendously poorly designed interface. This is because it combines the clock and audio coding onto the same signal.

i think what garyn was eluding to was that you arent about to sync your whole studio by SPDIF (heh)
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: mrhappy on March 09, 2023, 06:48:09 AM
Hey darthnVader... you mentioned the 'VS-Planet' site... I used to go there back in 2001 and was able to log back in!!! Took a quick peek around and you should figure out how to register as there's a bunch of useful info there! I noticed a fairly recent post about synching the VS-1680. It's for ProTools but mentions a windows program called 'VS wave Export' that could be of interest. Here's a copy/paste...


As I post about this same topic some time ago....

Via MTC and the Roland as an slave to Pro Tools, it works perfect with my VS-1680 with SD card Mod and a Netbook running Pro Tools LE 8.

Usually I sync them to record Drums, bass and guitars at the same time, and with VS Wave Export I transfer all the recorded data in the VS and imported to the Pro Tools session.

If your intention is at one stage transfer all the tracks you record on the VS inside the Pro Tools session, if you do the transfer recording each track via analog…. Its not necesary to match the sample rate or the bit resolution…..
But,,,, if you do it like I do, transfer them via a Windows software called VS wave Export, here is better to match the bit and sample rate….

In this post I make some time ago you wiil see how I transfer the tracks recorded on the VS via this software….

http://www.vsplanet.com/ubbthreads/ubbth...177#Post1485177

I always record on both machines at 44.1khz 24 Bits.

Also, as I use an Mbox 2, I use the spdif coaxial output on the Mbox straight to the coaxial input of the 1680, this way I can monitor all in the 1680.

Hope this help you!
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: chrisNova777 on March 09, 2023, 07:38:33 AM
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfqogRxMKGI[/youtube]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfqogRxMKGI
Roland VS880ex as Control Surface/Audio i/o for Logic 8 (or any DAW with midi/mmc)
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: DieHard on March 09, 2023, 10:34:29 AM
Chris, good research but misleading... let's clarify this...

As I stated:
Quote
Like Gary said, No; the S/PDIF cannot be used to Sync the device to anything, it can transfer digital audio (stereo only) to and from other devices, since the S/PDIF signal combines both the clock and audio info in the same signal, no other cables (like Word Clock) are needed; important to note that this has to be done in real time and...

What you stated:
Quote
Not True from what ive researched.

"The SPDIF stream carries data AND clock timing" https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/spdif-code.383279/
which is why its neccessary to link two PCI audio multi-cards using a SPDIF cable to get them to sync up and act as one interface in ableton live on os9

To clarify, SPDIF via Toslink or RCA connector will send/receive a stream of digital audio with clock info meaning your audio can be transferred (and sound great) without the need to use "Wordclock" that is needed typically to get 2 audio devices locked in "sync"; but we are using the term "sync" loosely.

As Gary correctly stated, S/PDIF CANNOT be used as a sync method to a DAW meaning that you CANNOT control the transport at all, no Start, Stop, arm record, play... yada, yada yada.  So basically all that great MMC / MTC MIDI stuff that locks the 2 devices is NOT possible via the S/PDIF... As noted on your video, "Roland VS880ex as Control Surface/Audio i/o for Logic 8 (or any DAW with midi/mmc)" Now That's what we are talking about when we mean "syncing to your DAW"

In fact, unless you hate the D/A converters or A/D of one device, then the S/PDIF is really not all that useful  S/PDIF is a nice way to transfer digital audio without re-converting.   Again, this has to be done in real time, there is no "S/PDIF Dump" mode that will transfer the whole track or file, so you might as well just hit "play" on the roland (since it has nice D/A) and then hit "record" in your DAW and use the A/D of your interface, this way you can adjust volume and EQ (you can't adjust anything via S/PDIF)

Lastly, where S/PDIF really shines with macs.. there are many Intel macs with S/PDIF and they have a secret bonus, many old Mac pros, macbooks, and Intel imacs have SPDIF built in.  It is a little known fact that the 1/8" analog audio output on many imacs also spits out optical S/PDIF out of the same jack !
https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/about-audio-ports-cpmh0052/mac

So, the secret bonus is that you can use pre-amps with digital out or even whole audio interfaces (like Mindprint TRIO S/PDIF) and not even have to load drivers !   So these devices can work NO MATTER what OS or DAW and no software for the device is needed, just set the mac system preferences to "optical"

Here is the cable needed for macbook/imac:
https://www.amazon.com/KabelDirekt-TOSLINK-Optical-Digital-Audio/dp/B00GZQWM54

For Mac Pro:
https://www.amazon.com/Syncwire-Digital-Gold-Plated-Compatible-Playstation/dp/B07S5XKHC6
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: darthnVader on March 09, 2023, 12:18:26 PM
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfqogRxMKGI[/youtube]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfqogRxMKGI
Roland VS880ex as Control Surface/Audio i/o for Logic 8 (or any DAW with midi/mmc)

But how the hell did he do it MCC?

Can this also be done for the 1680 or the 880ex supports something other than ADAT the 1680 doesn't to enable all the fader controls in LP8's mixer?
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: darthnVader on March 09, 2023, 01:17:38 PM
Ok, I found a video that explains some of it............

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A549y9TDnls
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: darthnVader on March 13, 2023, 06:16:31 AM
So far I figured out how to do just about everything the Roland can do syncing to LP8, but I can't get any output of a track over the Coaxial digital output.

I'm sure I'm just not setting it up right to output from the Roland, but the manual is wonderfully unhelpful.

I really need to be able to register at VS-Planet but I get no reply to emailing them about the broken registration issue.

Does anyone know how to output a track to the Dig1? I have set it to the master track in the menu via the manual but still no signal getting to the input on the AudioPhile?

Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: ssp3 on March 13, 2023, 03:23:22 PM
You ask questions here that could be answered by reading the manual. ;)
"DIGITAL OUT Connectors", p.176.
At first glimpse, there's no direct track out to SPDIF. You probably have to set the track(s) to one of the AUXes first and then assign it to SPDIF. Or just solo the track, if SPDIF is set to Master or Monitor.
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: smilesdavis on March 14, 2023, 01:16:37 PM
Forums exist because noone ever reads the manual
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: IIO on March 14, 2023, 06:27:13 PM
i dont read manuals either and i hope nobody interpreted my above advice as "RTFM" in the direction of the threadstarter - because you will never hear that from me.

rather i give false advise because also dont read it.^^
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: daddyjeff on March 14, 2023, 09:54:40 PM
I bid on a AVID MBOX 3 PRO and I'm likely to win it, but I didn't notice it only has 4 inputs and two of those a Mic inputs.

However it does have the breakout cable for SPDIF/MIDI that I was having an issue finding.

Likely I'l buy the Avid MBox Pro 8x8 and use the breakout cable with that.

It's just a used item but really for $50 it should be just as good with Logic or GB as the VS system is now as a stand-a-lone.

Pro Tools cheats a lot, it seems like it has nothing, but then it has native tools like strip silence, which is used to remove audio silences or make random audio slices, I use this a lot to experiment even with audio that does not have silences just to see what happens and experiment with it.

Mbox shares the same features as a Digi001 is the same thing, but it works via usb and does not have as many physical channels as Digi001, it was really great to use with an ibook G4 a very portable solution with great sound quality.

But keep in mind that with the professional tools you get Strip Silence, which is a great tool, to take a track from a kick drum and turn those kick drums into clips or individual audio elements, same for old magazine CDs with samples or whatever similar in vinyl for hiphop djs where the sound cuts come separately with breaks and sound effects voices and similar things, also to record an LP in 2 audio tracks and extract the cuts from A side B side, cassette tapes or whatever is difficult to extract digitally.

I record all these things on one track and then remove the silences to get the separate sounds to keep in a folder.

I think Cubase and Logic didn't have anything similar, and I don't think Ableton Live either.

Strip Silence saves a lot of time and work in a very simple way when you want to make arrangements with the recorded audio.

info: https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/using-pro-tools-strip-silence-function

(https://dt7v1i9vyp3mf.cloudfront.net/styles/header/s3/imagelibrary/p/ptstripsilence3-7UWn9ZhZVnxlbj7pEgvbd_.JptNtspSP.jpg)


Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: IIO on March 14, 2023, 10:37:52 PM
cubase can do something very similar since MacOS9.

it also can do the reverse and merge files on the same track.

but the handling of all this is quite different between PT and cubase/nuendo. in PT track #7 and channel #7 is the same. lots of pros and cons about this.

PT was a bit easier to grasp when somebody came from tape machines and inline mixers. the other major DAWs all had a life as MIDI sequencer versions before and were the next logical step from those.
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: teroyk on March 15, 2023, 06:26:17 AM
Lastly, where S/PDIF really shines with macs.. there are many Intel macs with S/PDIF and they have a secret bonus, many old Mac pros, macbooks, and Intel imacs have SPDIF built in.  It is a little known fact that the 1/8" analog audio output on many imacs also spits out optical S/PDIF out of the same jack !

Not have to be intel mac. The last Powerbook G4 (late 2005) has that feature, but is there any another Powerbook (early 2005?) models with that feature?
And all iMac G5 models has it with audio out. And all Powermac G5 models has SPDIF, some of them has separete optical connectors.
How about the last Macmini G4 1.5 Ghz?
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: DieHard on March 15, 2023, 08:39:14 AM
Quote
How about the last Macmini G4 1.5 Ghz?

I don't think it would have S/PDIF out built in...

For iMacs, and macbooks I definitely remember optical in/out available in many years and many models (Intel); from 2009 to about 2015 I setup many systems for people using these ports for simple pro recording setups, basically just plug in and record or playback and no drivers needed; in 2016 the new macbook pros dropped the S/PDIFF and the iMacs in 2017.  Many in film also used these optical ports for easy surround sound setups.  Apple said nobody used it, but I can tell you a lot of people were really upset...

Her is what Eric Persing of Spectrasonics , one of the leading developers of pro virtual instruments in the audio world, and not exactly prone to tantrums, posted on his FB...

Quote
"APPLE HAS COMPLETELY LOST IT. I am absolutely FURIOUS about this news! This is literally a feature that our entire team at Spectrasonics utilizes EVERY DAY, dozens of times a day! The removal of optical out is INSANE! In our world of audio, this is a feature that made MacBook Pros truly a mobile/professional audio machine! Native core audio with simple digital audio output is one of the essential reasons that these laptops have always been the best for audio and music. NOW THEY'VE TAKEN IT AWAY SO THEY SAVE A PENNY!
I hate you apple! (Never thought I'd every say that)"

Phil Shiller...
Quote
"Is it inconsistent to keep the 3.5mm headphone jack as it’s no longer on the latest iPhone?
Not at all. These are pro machines. If it was just about headphones then it doesn’t need to be there, we believe that wireless is a great solution for headphones. But many users have setups with studio monitors, amps, and other pro audio gear that do not have wireless solutions and need the 3.5mm jack."
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: robespierre on March 15, 2023, 10:18:57 AM
I think that the optical "mini TOSLINK" output was on the iMac G5 and the Dual Layer SuperDrive PowerBook G4 (the latest 15" and 17" Supreme models from October 2005). The G4 Minis apparently don't have it.
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: teroyk on March 15, 2023, 11:03:42 AM
Quote
How about the last Macmini G4 1.5 Ghz?
I don't think it would have S/PDIF out built in...
For iMacs, and macbooks I definitely remember optical in/out available in many years and many models (Intel); from 2009 to about 2015

Many models (PPC) from 2003 to 2006 has it. And even Macmini Intel 1.5Ghz (Core Solo) from 2006 has it, so that is why I asked.
I tested Macmini G4 1.25Ghz, it does not have S/PDIF out built in (or at least not red light when I pushed adapter to headphone port).
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: DieHard on March 16, 2023, 09:08:33 AM
Quote
Many models (PPC) from 2003 to 2006 has it. And even Macmini Intel 1.5Ghz (Core Solo) from 2006 has it, so that is why I asked.
I tested Macmini G4 1.25Ghz, it does not have S/PDIF out built in (or at least not red light when I pushed adapter to headphone port).

Thanks for that info !  Maybe we should start a list... although, I think the "everymac" site probably already tells us on each specific model if it has optical.  On the everymac site, If you click the "ports" tab on your model and then click the actual ports you get...
Sound In:
Quote
Combined "audio line in/optical digital audio input (minijack)
Sound Out:
Quote
Single shared "headphone/optical digital audio output (minijack)"

So, for a quick DAW, get a S/PDIF mac and a S/PDIF TRIO...
1) No drivers
2) Zero latency
3) Class "A" Mic Pre (with hardware compression)
4) Hughes & Kettner guitar input
5) Dual Headphone outs with talkback
6) Line inputs
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/mindprint-trio

Leave it to the Germans, the kings of DAWs !

Quote
Mindprint cram mic and line channel strips, monitor control, and talkback into a single desktop unit.
Mindprint's Trio is designed to meet the specific needs of the desktop audio market and comprises a very practical combination of a channel strip and a monitor-control section, complete with headphone amp and talkback facilities. Although it doesn't include a computer audio interface as such, it does have optical S/PDIF inputs and outputs, so it could be used with the new Apple Mac G5 computers without the need to buy a separate audio interface. The voice-channel part of the package is based around a very respectable Class-A mic/instrument preamp with switchable 48V phantom power, compressor, and equaliser, but there's also a separate stereo line input with its own EQ that can be mixed with the mic input, as well as an auxiliary monitor input that could be used as a two-track return. Mindprint have taken part of the Trio's compressor design from their rather more costly DTC dual recording channel, and it provides programme-dependent adjustment of the time constants so that only a single knob is needed to adjust the processing. Furthermore, the mic channel's EQ is tailored specifically to vocals so you get the job done with fewer distracting controls.
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: teroyk on March 16, 2023, 01:20:20 PM
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/mindprint-trio

With that link I noticed another interesting Mindprint device that support Mac OS 9 with DI-Mod USB:
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/mindprint-envoice-mkii
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: DieHard on March 16, 2023, 03:39:56 PM
Yeah, I own 2 of those also (Mindprint Envoice) , they are great for recording vocals or guitar w/real tube saturation as a rack channel strip, I do not have the DI S/PDIF.  They can obviously be used with any OS or DAW
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: rvense on March 16, 2023, 08:14:18 PM
Interesting device... looks like the Mac OS 9 drivers are lost, though. Not here, not the Garden, not Archive.org...
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: DieHard on March 16, 2023, 10:27:32 PM
Interesting device... looks like the Mac OS 9 drivers are lost, though. Not here, not the Garden, not Archive.org...

There are no drivers needed, it is a Pre-amp strip, if you add the "Digital I/O option" it gets connected to the Optical of your audio interface or directly to a mac with optical.  I don't have that option, so I just use the analog out.

I cleaned off the dust and have decided to use one for guitar and one for vocals over the last year; they really warm up the digital world and I like to track with some subtle EQ and compression.  The output of each mindprint envoice is going to an input on my newest interface... a Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 firewire.  I swore I would never use a Focusrite interface ever... but I am enjoying them over my Echo Audiofire 12 since I like having the ability to add some gain to some of my external MIDI gear and the pres on the saffire actually sound better than I thought they would and the MixControl software can send zero latency mixies for monitoring.
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: IIO on March 17, 2023, 01:13:52 AM
no ASIO drivers, no ASIO support. but i think when you buy a device the chance is high that the seller still has the CD.
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: IIO on March 17, 2023, 01:32:20 AM
propagamma/ploytec ASIO for OS9 was also sold separately.

but google is quiet about this...

Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: teroyk on March 17, 2023, 01:42:04 AM
Interesting device... looks like the Mac OS 9 drivers are lost, though. Not here, not the Garden, not Archive.org...
There are no drivers needed, it is a Pre-amp strip, if you add the "Digital I/O option" it gets connected to the Optical of your audio interface or directly to a mac with optical.  I don't have that option, so I just use the analog out.

But if you have Mindprint Envoice mkII with USB-port and Mac without optical in..you might want drivers for it.
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: DieHard on March 17, 2023, 08:37:11 AM
Quote
But if you have Mindprint Envoice mkII with USB-port and Mac without optical in..you might want drivers for it.

I have the original MK1 versions, no USB :(
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: GaryN on March 17, 2023, 12:27:41 PM
OK. This thread has now officially gone so deep into the woods it should be a horror flick…
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: DieHard on March 17, 2023, 12:48:29 PM
OK. This thread has now officially gone so deep into the woods it should be a horror flick…

Gary, I was just getting to the part of what I ate for lunch... now you bummed me out...lol
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: robespierre on March 17, 2023, 12:54:35 PM
GaryN, you trying to give us all nightmares of Meryl Streep's nectarines?
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: IIO on March 17, 2023, 02:19:16 PM
But if you have Mindprint Envoice mkII with USB-port and Mac without optical in..you might want drivers for it.

i just checked and i actually dont have it. which explains why i am not aware of this driver at all, it always seemed to be a windows-only thing.

if somebody could deploy the ASIO driver from propagamma one could put that machine on his wishlist and it might make a good 2 channel IO solution.

otoh, can you still buy the usb card for the mkII? is it more a common or more a rare add-on?
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: DieHard on March 17, 2023, 04:40:03 PM
Quote
can you still buy the usb card for the mkII? is it more a common or more a rare add-on?

Not sure, but the DI-Mod for my unit is avail on eBay from Germany for about $200
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: IIO on March 17, 2023, 08:40:39 PM
so, as much as the rest of the unit? ;) i was afraid it is in that price range, it is probably not a bad converter.
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: smilesdavis on March 17, 2023, 11:08:48 PM
https://web.archive.org/web/20010122003200/http://mindprint.com/Products-de/dimod/index.htm (german)
https://web.archive.org/web/20000306231538/http://mindprint.com/Products/index.htm#DI-MOD%2024/48 (english)

MINDPRINT DI-MOD 24/48 Digital Converter Module for MindPrint products

https://web.archive.org/web/20000307061315/http://mindprint.com/faq_en.htm
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: teroyk on March 18, 2023, 04:53:10 AM
But if you have Mindprint Envoice mkII with USB-port and Mac without optical in..you might want drivers for it.
i just checked and i actually dont have it. which explains why i am not aware of this driver at all, it always seemed to be a windows-only thing.

From SOS review:
"Suitable ASIO drivers for Windows (98, 2000 and XP) and Mac (OS 9 and OS X) are supplied on a CD-ROM, although as you would expect the company's web site carries the latest versions (current v2.23 for all formats)"


Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: IIO on March 18, 2023, 08:00:24 PM
i meant the "generic", commercial propagamma, which i suspect would work with many decives.
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: cyberish on March 23, 2023, 01:54:47 AM
https://babcuvpisecek.com/htpc/do-i-have-optical-out-apple-toslink-spdif-compatibility-list/



Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: teroyk on March 24, 2023, 11:11:02 AM
https://babcuvpisecek.com/htpc/do-i-have-optical-out-apple-toslink-spdif-compatibility-list/

It is not complete...it missing all PPC Macs (except iMac G5) that have it.
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: teroyk on March 24, 2023, 11:20:35 AM
i meant the "generic", commercial propagamma, which i suspect would work with many decives.

You mean this one?:
http://web.archive.org/web/20050410160201/http://www.usb-audio.com/get-the-driver.asp
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: teroyk on March 24, 2023, 11:42:48 AM
OK. This thread has now officially gone so deep into the woods it should be a horror flick…

You are right..I made separate thread about that Mindprint USB-driver:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,6729.msg51132.html
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: cyberish on March 24, 2023, 12:07:23 PM
https://babcuvpisecek.com/htpc/do-i-have-optical-out-apple-toslink-spdif-compatibility-list/

It is not complete...it missing all PPC Macs (except iMac G5) that have it.

Ok , do you have a complete source for the info about TOS Linked Macs ?
Would be nice to have all of 'em in a list.
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: IIO on March 24, 2023, 08:27:12 PM
i meant the "generic", commercial propagamma, which i suspect would work with many decives.

You mean this one?:
http://web.archive.org/web/20050410160201/http://www.usb-audio.com/get-the-driver.asp

yeah, it is the old name of ploytec.

you can see a picture of the OS9 ASIO controlpanel in that SOS article about the mindprint, the only other source is their old website

http://web.archive.org/web/20050324014646/http://usb-audio.com/

the main interest for some of us might be the support for the griffin imic.

maybe we should ask them if we may republish the OS9 version free of charge?
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: teroyk on March 27, 2023, 03:32:37 AM
Ok , do you have a complete source for the info about TOS Linked Macs ?
Would be nice to have all of 'em in a list.

I don't have complete list. There is still some models for test, read my another post:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,6702.msg50992.html#msg50992
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: teroyk on March 27, 2023, 03:55:04 AM
yeah, it is the old name of ploytec.

you can see a picture of the OS9 ASIO controlpanel in that SOS article about the mindprint, the only other source is their old website

http://web.archive.org/web/20050324014646/http://usb-audio.com/

the main interest for some of us might be the support for the griffin imic.

maybe we should ask them if we may republish the OS9 version free of charge?

Or would he/she sell source code of Mac OS 9 version?
It would be nice to continue his work for new devices, also.
Title: Re: Noob building DAW
Post by: IIO on March 27, 2023, 05:23:13 AM
i think "how to usb" should be part of the ASIO SDK, but we can ask for both. it is most likely a two men project so there should be no rights releated issues with it.