Mac OS 9 Lives
Mac OS 9 Discussion => Hardware => CPU Upgrades => Topic started by: DieHard on January 27, 2014, 11:26:30 AM
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OK... As you may know (or not know)...;
1) The Apple System Profiler under Mac OS 9.2.2 reports L3 Processor cache as L2 and does not show speed
2) The Apple Tech Tools Series shows L2 cache and ignores L3 cache amount
So...I would like to ask Mactron (and all members) to download the Appropriate G4 Diagnostics disk from our download boards
and click the "Hardware Profile" tab and post the Machine Serial Number, Model Number, G4s CPU Speed, Cache, and Cache Speed, I will also try to get some time to boot the 15+ G4 in my storage area.
System 1
Mac G4 MDD 1.25 Ghz. Single, Serial Number G84244ZGPC4
Model Number..: M8570
Sales Number...: M8573LL/A, M8840LL/A, M9145LL/A
Production Year.: 2004
Production Week: 25 (June)
Apple Hardware Test Version 1.2.6 (For MDD or Quick Silver)
CPU...: PowerPC,G4 @ 1250 Mhz.
Cache: 1024K L3 @ - 149 Mhz.
Note: Mac OS 9 System Profiler Reports 1 MB L2 Cache
System 2
Mac G4 MDD 1.25 Ghz. Dual, Serial Number XB40204LPC1
Model Number..: M8570
Sales Number...: M9145LL/A
Production Year.: 2004
Production Week: 03 (January)
Apple Hardware Test Version 1.2.7 (for MDD FW400)
CPU...: 2 x PowerPC,G4 @ 1250 Mhz.
Cache: 1024K L3 @ - 178 Mhz.
Note: Mac OS 9 System Profiler Reports 1 MB L2 Cache
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OK, DieHard.
But what's the point in using Apple Hardware Test instead of the easiest Sonnet Metronome app?
One of the my MDD's :
(http://macos9lives.com/downloads/_img/MetronomeG4_1.5.jpg)
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how do u have 167mhz bus speed?
the sonnet app itself overclocks 133mhz g4 to 167?
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how do u have 167mhz bus speed?
the sonnet app itself overclocks 133mhz g4 to 167?
167 Mhz is the "native" bus speed of MDDs. (by the way, it can be overclocked to 172 with motherboard oscillator change) although some "low end" MDD's were working at 133 Mhz for marketing reasons (this is easy recoverable via motherboard multiplier resistors settings). Well I never have done it, it is easiest try to acquire the good ones (167 Mhz) ;)
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how do u have 167mhz bus speed?
the sonnet app itself overclocks 133mhz g4 to 167?
167 Mhz is the "native" bus speed of MDDs. (by the way, it can be overclocked to 172 with motherboard oscillator change) although some "low end" MDD's were working at 133 Mhz for marketing reasons (this is easy recoverable via motherboard multiplier resistors settings). Well I never have done it, it is easiest try to acquire the good ones (167 Mhz) ;)
yes ok but the "sonnet" name made me assume this was a system using a sonnet cpu... which i understand now that it is not... and is a "stock" MDD overclocked to 1.5ghz from 1.25 i assume..
i will go ahead and guess that for this testing purpose tho, Diehard would prefer to use official apple cd-boot diagnostics! for consistancy + accuracy
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System 3
Mac G4 MDD 1.250 Ghz. Single, Serial Number J5335YUOPG6T
Model Number..: M8570
Sales Number...: M8573LL/A, M8840LL/A, M9145LL/A
Production Year.: 2004
Production Week: 25 (June)
Apple Hardware Test Version 1.2.7 (For MDD or Quick Silver)
CPU...: PowerPC,G4 @ 1500 Mhz.
Cache: 1024K L3 @ - 107 Mhz.
Note: Mac OS 9 System Profiler Reports 1 MB L2 Cache
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OK... Processor Over-clocked and cache running slower.... WFT is going on with that ?
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remember i told u.. when cpu overclocks.. the cache gets out of sync. thats what i read about them overclocking the QS 733 to 933 because there was no cache on that cpu version to get out of synch or mess up by the over clock
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"Out of Sync"... I can understand that the cache may not not able to handle the higher cycles... but to run slower with more voltage ? I am still confused
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OK... Processor Over-clocked and cache running slower.... WFT is going on with that ?
It's a good question.
In my opinion, Apple hardware reports aren't trust but of the standard configuration.
I'll put an extreme example: I have an Sawtoth with a motherboard bus speed swich (100/120/133 Mhz) and a 7448 (from NewerTech) with a speed swich (1400−2000 Mhz) Sonnet Metronome always show correctly all this settings acording with 7448 tecnical specsheet and Sawtoth Uninord specsheet and the results in speed test. But Apple hardware reports are wrong in more than half of the configurations.
I'm not a MOD expert, but I've overclocked over a dozen of Macs (and some PC) and this happens usually.
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Thanks Mactron :)
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My 1.25GHZ G4 is showing 1MB L2 cache. I thought it was supposed to be 2MB. Is that normal?
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i think only the 2002 1.25ghz had 2mb l3 cache
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Excuse me, i meant to say that it has 256kb L2 and 1MB L3.
So that means that I can get a better system if I would have gotten the 2002?
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http://everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/specs/powermac_g4_1.25_mdd.html - I typed in the last 4 digits of my serial and got this machine. It says 2MB L3 cache. DieHard noted that the profiler says 1mb so I'm not sure if this is normal or not.
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yes thats exactly the point they were discussing..
that everymac 's info is seemingly incorrect
that fact is what started this thread just a few weeks ago
as diehard was annoyed he thought he had 2mb andd realized he only had 1mb
lol;)
of course there are other machines that have 2mb
this fact was brought to light by mactron when i posted my powermac g4 comparison chart
see the chart here:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=578.0
youll notice im lazy and havent updated the chart to reflect this fact however -- rofl;)
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Ok now I understand! There is a thread where they discussed this too: http://www.morphzone.info/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=8088&forum=11
They said the correct info is here: http://lowendmac.com/2003/power-mac-g4-mid-2003/
So now I'll take a look at the info here and in the thread you linked and see if that extra MB of cache is beneficial...
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That chart is interesting. I don't know if it would be worth it to get a new DP 1.25 for that extra MB of cache. I guess that's what we're trying to figure out right now?
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i think i even remember readng it being listed as 2MB *Per processor*, = 4MB L3 cache total on the ones that are listed as having 2MB cache
this is what i saw on a screen shot send to me by someone who wanted to sell me an mdd 2002 DP 1.25
check attached image
ok looking closely this image says 1.42Ghz MDD
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Is there any way to run a bench utilizing only 1 CPU in the DP 1.25? I'd like to see a direct comparison of a single 2mb L3 CPU compared to the 1mb L3 1.25 like on my MDD 2003.
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System 4
Mac G4 MDD 1.25 Ghz. Dual, Serial Number CK307H01MXD
Model Number..: M8570
Sales Number...: M9145LL/A
Production Year.: 2003
Production Week: 08 (February)
Apple Hardware Test Version 1.2.7 (for MDD FW400)
CPU...: 2 x PowerPC,G4 @ 1250 Mhz.
Cache: 2048K L3 @ - 178 Mhz.
Note: Mac OS 9 System Profiler Reports 2 MB L2 Cache
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Thanks Lokki.... this verifies my findings that the 9.2.2 version of the system profiler is actually reading the cache size correctly (although it reports L3 as L2).
Even though I have setup many of these units for clients over the years, I always assumed the cache size on the Dual 1.25 and the Single 1.25 CPU versions of the 2003 MDD were the same... bad assumption... I just never looked closely enough and that is the reason I started the thread, to compare units that were stock... I own both single and Dual 1.25 units... but I do not think any are stock anymore (their SN#s and white labels don't match their configurations)... I Swapped so many CPUs in these units over the years that I was hoping people would post their findings on stock units... so, thanks :)
Interesting coincidence, the cache on your dual clocks exactly the same speed as a single that I posted @ 178
So... it is clear now we should update all references to state the the ultimate stock OS 9 unit would be the Dual 1.25 (so you get the 2 MB cache) and simply leave all multiprocessor support disabled (for stability). But the jury may be out since now we have more heat and more fan noise with the duals. Many DAW plugins and even some hosts (such as Cubase) crash with having the multiple CPU options enabled... so in the end you will have a single 1.25 with double the cache.... maybe the hard core Logic users can heavy test the Multi VS Single CPU scenario and post results... If there is a DAW program that runs stable with dual CPUs it would most likely be Logic.
I lastly want to note.... the reason I suggest the whole "1 GB MAX" instead of 1.5GB is that although Mac OS 9 supports a maximum of 1.5 GB of memory, it only supports a maximum of 1 GB allocated to a single application and I strongly believe that some of these programs do not respect that limit and go outside of the 1 GB limit and crash (just a theory), since I have definitely found bugs (in Cubase anyway) that only seem to crop up when the total memory is above 1 GB. To add to the confusion, Mactron allocates more than a 1 GB to Kompakt and it works great so... who knows ?
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Would it be possible to actually physically remove a CPU from a DP, or would disabling it somehow be the better option?
I'm wondering if I should go with a DP version for the extra cache and mod it 'til it's quiet.
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No way to remove... just get a dual, do all noise mods and don't enable it
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Will the 360W power supply work in a DP? I've already got it modded.
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Also with the mdd the power supplies seem to break down when continuously plugged into a live plug - electrical switch turned on continuously. I read somewhere that the best way to keep your power supply in your mdd from breaking down is to remove the plug totally from the wall socket or extension board after shut down. Apparently the power board has a tendency to let current in while sitting idle and this is what can cause problems for the tired old power supplies.
I've had to replace my power supply 3 times over the past 11 or so years so far. Each time when left alone plugged into power while the power switch was turned on.
Unplug the cord from your mdd computer when not using it or shut down. This will definitely help prolong the use of your mdd PS.
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i have the 360w power supply. so far it is working without problems.
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Also with the mdd the power supplies seem to break down when continuously plugged into a live plug - electrical switch turned on continuously. I read somewhere that the best way to keep your power supply in your mdd from breaking down is to remove the plug totally from the wall socket or extension board after shut down. Apparently the power board has a tendency to let current in while sitting idle and this is what can cause problems for the tired old power supplies.
I've had to replace my power supply 3 times over the past 11 or so years so far. Each time when left alone plugged into power while the power switch was turned on.
Unplug the cord from your mdd computer when not using it or shut down. This will definitely help prolong the use of your mdd PS.
sorry not sure im understanding u correctly..
did you mean that your power supply was damaged by being left plugged into the outlet.. while being POWERED OFF?
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Interesting coincidence, the cache on your dual clocks exactly the same speed as a single that I posted @ 178
actually it's your dual... i took your post as a template. when you responded that it was the same as on your machine i thought: copy/paste error. but i checked again, it is 178 mhz :D
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sorry not sure im understanding u correctly..
did you mean that your power supply was damaged by being left plugged into the outlet.. while being POWERED OFF?
Yes exactly...and to stick on the safe side I pull the cord out of the power
socket totally if I'm not using the machine.
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Lokki, I meant to say Dual... lol... as Bugs would say "What a maroon"
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http://toronto.en.craigslist.ca/tor/sys/4555183429.html
check this out
(http://images.craigslist.org/00E0E_fTqh3IndmDP_600x450.jpg)
how does a dual 1.25 have 1mb cache?????
all the other *dual* 1.25 screens ive read have said 2mb per procesor (Which actually would equal 4mb l3 cache?)
confusing
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Well if this ain't confusing.
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how does a dual 1.25 have 1mb cache?????
Because this CPU module is on a / or is from a MDD 1.25 Dual FW800.
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(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=587.0;attach=574)
:)
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Mactron, where is my mdd 867 dual?
It has 1 mbyte l3 cache per proc. And 133 bus...
Never heard of 827... And mono processors? All first gen of mdd was dual
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LOL!! ;D ;D ;D
thats perfect. except yea the 867mhz is a dual too! not single.. this mdd i have too;)
but its a great illustration.. good work;)
good to know my cpu type is 7455B on my 1.25(2003)single
the 'mactronn guide' LOL!
so this xserve g4 1.33ghz cpu is compatible with any mdd?
hmmm
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Mactron, where is my mdd 867
Never heard of 827... And mono processors?
This is my new old trick:
You must drop a full beer into your MDD 867 dual, let it dry. And if you are lucky enough that it starts up again, you can have such a configuration or even more weird!
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LOL! drunken spaniard mdd -afro-
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OK, I'll fix it as soon as I can... -afro-
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thats perfect. except yea the 867mhz is a dual too! not single.. this mdd i have too;)
but its a great illustration.. good work;)
so this xserve g4 1.33ghz cpu is compatible with any mdd?
hmmm
It seems that the best models are the first gen. Mdd 1.25 and the 2003 dual model, as the one most wanted, the fw800 1.42. How can perform an overclock an xserve 1.33 dual? Never heard of this Cpu modules on mdds .
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How can perform an overclock an xserve 1.33 dual? Never heard of this Cpu modules on mdds .
Exactly as the 1.42 Dual. AFAIK
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On a 133 machine a dual 1.33 166 bus cpu should work at dual ghz.... With 2 mb l3 cache. That would make parity with my DA with cpu module QS02 DUAL GHZ! That cpu module is NOW the most wanted item after the 1.42 module and the copper heatsink.
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On a 133 machine a dual 1.33 166 bus cpu should work at dual ghz.... With 2 mb l3 cache. That would make parity with my DA with cpu module QS02 DUAL GHZ! That cpu module is NOW the most wanted item after the 1.42 module and the copper heatsink.
are u going to upgrade the cpu of this 867mhz mdd? to xserve dual 1.33ghz? :o
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This is my new old trick:
You must drop a full beer into your MDD 867 dual, let it dry. And if you are lucky enough that it starts up again, you can have such a configuration or even more weird!
Sorry, first trick yours I wont do. :P ;D
This MDD was frozen in 2004 and was not booted since then till last winter. It even has the original noisy PSU... I love it as is.
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are u going to upgrade the cpu of this 867mhz mdd? to xserve dual 1.33ghz?
Maybe if I find a thin aluminum heatsink...
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Sorry, first trick yours I wont do. :P ;D
This MDD was frozen in 2004 and was not booted since then till last winter. It even has the original noisy PSU... I love it as is.
frozen in time.. like captain america?
u should replace the fans! its not hard! it makes a big difference if u use fans that connect straight to 4pin molex so the fan speed is constant and doesnt speed up/slow down
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On a 133 machine a dual 1.33 166 bus cpu should work at dual ghz.... With 2 mb l3 cache. That would make parity with my DA with cpu module QS02 DUAL GHZ! That cpu module is NOW the most wanted item after the 1.42 module and the copper heatsink.
On a 133 machine a dual 1.33 166 bus cpu should work at dual at 1.066 Ghz without CPU or BUS overclock.
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Picture fixed.
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My 1.25GHZ G4 is showing 1MB L2 cache. I thought it was supposed to be 2MB. Is that normal?
1 mb per processor makes a total of 2 mb. :)
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great illustration of a complex concept;) very simple + easy to understand
at first it hought it was a joke;) ehehe 8)
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great illustration of a complex concept;) very simple + easy to understand
at first it hought it was a joke;) ehehe 8)
Thank You. Its from an old spreadsheet I have done.
I'll hope now it doesn't have more errors...
OMG, I just find two new ones!
Thanks God, it is almost nothing...
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This is my new old trick:
You must drop a full beer into your MDD 867 dual, let it dry. And if you are lucky enough that it starts up again, you can have such a configuration or even more weird!
in europe we had a single processor 1.0 GHz entry model when the MDDs came out.
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how do u have 167mhz bus speed?
the sonnet app itself overclocks 133mhz g4 to 167?
167 Mhz is the "native" bus speed of MDDs. (by the way, it can be overclocked to 172 with motherboard oscillator change) although some "low end" MDD's were working at 133 Mhz for marketing reasons (this is easy recoverable via motherboard multiplier resistors settings). Well I never have done it, it is easiest try to acquire the good ones (167 Mhz) ;)
Sorry to bring back an old thread, but I have seen you reference the 172 MHz bus clock a couple time but not sure where you got the info. Very curious if you have URL/doc/etc laying around yet with this info?
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how do u have 167mhz bus speed?
the sonnet app itself overclocks 133mhz g4 to 167?
167 Mhz is the "native" bus speed of MDDs. (by the way, it can be overclocked to 172 with motherboard oscillator change) although some "low end" MDD's were working at 133 Mhz for marketing reasons (this is easy recoverable via motherboard multiplier resistors settings). Well I never have done it, it is easiest try to acquire the good ones (167 Mhz) ;)
Sorry to bring back an old thread, but I have seen you reference the 172 MHz bus clock a couple time but not sure where you got the info. Very curious if you have URL/doc/etc laying around yet with this info?
The MDD bus can be changed from 133 to 166, just changing some resistors in the Motherboard. But If you already have an 166 Mhz Bus System, The only way to go further is to change the base quartz oscillator of the motherboard. Here you have the info:
http://forum.macbidouille.com/index.php?showtopic=208076
But it is mixed with the Digital Audio (and Quick Silver) bus overclock.
... and is in French.
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Here is an MDD with Stock Apple CPU Upgrade (without any overclocking)
System 3 (Modified 2002 MDD)
Mac G4 MDD 1.33 Ghz. Single, Serial Number XB2410JQMXD
Model Number..: M8570
Sales Number...: M8573LL/A, M8689LL/A, M8787LL/A, M8839LL/A, M8840LL/A, M8841LL/A, M9145LL/A
Production Year.: 2002
Production Week: 42 (October)
Apple Hardware Test Version 1.2.7 (For MDD)
CPU...: PowerPC,G4 @ 1333 Mhz.
Cache: 2048K L3 @ - 135 Mhz.
Cache: 2048K L3 @ - 135 Mhz. How can this be possible ??
A fast, Single G4 stock CPU with 2 MB Cache (Perfect for DAW, runs cool)
Easy... Look at Mactron's chart above, buy an OS X Only Xserve, scrap the unit and put the CPU in an MDD with 167 Mhz. bus and BAM... OS 9 Single CPU Rocket :)
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I did the same thing a few years back. I needed a CPU and for whatever reason all of the MDD ones I was finding were listing for several times the cost as Xserve units. The Xserve processors work fine. But you still need a MDD compatible heatsink.
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I did the same thing a few years back. I needed a CPU and for whatever reason all of the MDD ones I was finding were listing for several times the cost as Xserve units. The Xserve processors work fine. But you still need a MDD compatible heatsink.
well u could always go liquid cooling ;D
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The Xserve processors work fine. But you still need a MDD compatible heatsink.
Yes very True, but that stock Aluminum thick Heatsink (as opposed to the thin one that looks like stainless steel) that comes with the 2002 Dual 1.25 works perfectly, so just aquire the CPU, clean the heatsink and CPU (look online) and use a small amount of Arctic silver (very small amount). Very Easy Upgrade.
Also, from the MacTron Testing Labs, I will list the MDD heatsinks in order of BEST to Worst as far as heat transfer/Temperature:
1) Copper MDD Heatsink (comes with Dual 1.42 or buy aftermarket) TEMP = −5C
2) Thick Aluminum (Kinda looks like other G4 heasinks) TEMP = −1.7C
3) Thin Aluminum (Looks like stainless Steel) TEMP = 0C