Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)

[MacTron]

The linux way goes to nowhere. Yaboot is chained to BootX.
BootX instead of load Mac Os ROM it load Yaboot, and Yaboot load Linux or Mac Os X but no Mac Os 9.

This is a summary of the classic Mac OS boot process for New World machines. ( all the G4 family and others...)

1. Machine runs low level initialization

(Boot chime)

2. OpenFirmware is started (built the device tree)

3. OpenFirmware looks for a "boot-device" (a default is stored in the firmware)

4. OpenFirmware loads a file of type ’tbxi’ "Mac OS Rom" from the partition (in a blessed System Folder)

5. Mac OS Rom is started
6. Mac OS Rom starts Mac OS

So the key point is 4.
The first thing to check is boot-device command to see if a boot path is correct.

[lokki]

i already did point 4. changed boot-device manually (in openfirmware) to point to the os9 partition. no luck so far.

[supernova777]

http://www.firmworks.com/QuickRef.html

i really think even if we type the command right and do everything right with openfirmware
as outlined here: https://sites.google.com/site/shawnhcorey/howto-boot-apple-powerpcs-from-a-usb-drive-in-open-firmware
its just gonna "not work" because at a core lower level they have disabled this.. like a lamp thats been unplugged from the wall
it COULD work.. if we could just plug it in.. but we dont know how;) so its almost easier to worry about reading the contents of the rom to a file
if we could at least get a hex dump of the rom we could see about flashing the fw400 firmware onto the fw800..
guaranteed thats where this "disable" code is.. the only other palce it could be is actually embedded into a secondary bios chip but i think we
would know about any hardware differences beetween the two models.. and there are none? except for the fw800 port..
guaranteed these machines are capable of booting os9 with the right rom file flashed!!!!!!
when i enter openfirmware on my powermac g3 it says:

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openfirmware 3.1.1what does your mac say for

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dev /rom/boot-rom .properties
my powermac g3 450mhz says: (partial result i didnt type it all out)

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name boot-rom
write-characteristic flash
model powermac1,1 version 1.1f4 built on 04/09/99 @ time
BootROM-version
BootROM-build-date
result
info

but right there.. to me the fact it says "write-characteristic : Flash" means this can be backed up, copied + overwritten same as any other bios chip on a pc

this page has some more examples on booting:
http://netbsd.gw.com/cgi-bin/man-cgi/man?ofwboot+8.macppc+NetBSD-current

boot [boot-device [boot-file]] [options]
boot-device  primary bootloader location
boot-file    kernel location
options      flags passed to the kernel (see below)

so u can specify the "boot-file" on which "boot-device" and also give additional "options"
has anyone tried

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boot hd:,macos.rom \\:tbxiwith the macos.rom on the hard drive , i guess in the root?
if the macos.rom is even the boot-file
if it is the boot-file perhaps u would write:

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boot hd:,\System Folder\Mac OS ROM \\:tbxiand see if it boots normally

i just tried this.. and got an error saying "cant open macos.rom" obviously because i dont have the file on my hard drive.
can someone try this?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_ROM

New World ROM Macs are the first Macs where direct usage of the Open Firmware (OF) subsystem is encouraged. Previous PCI Power Macs used Open Firmware for booting, but the implementation was not complete; in these machines OF was only expected to probe PCI devices, then immediately hand control over to the Mac OS ROM. Because of this, versions 1.0.5 and 2.x had several serious bugs, as well as missing functionality (such as being able to load files from a HFS partition or a TFTP server). Apple also set the default input and output devices to ttya (the modem port on beige Macs), which made it difficult for normal users to get to Open Firmware; to do so it was necessary to either hook up a terminal, or change the Open Firmware settings from inside Mac OS using a tool such as Boot Variables or Apple's System Disk.

The New World ROM introduced a much-improved version of the Open Firmware interpreter, version 3.0, which added many missing features, fixed most of the bugs from earlier versions, and had the capability to run CHRP boot scripts. The Toolbox ROM was embedded inside a CHRP script in the System Folder called "Mac OS ROM", along with a short loader stub and a copy of the Happy Mac icon suitable for display from Open Firmware. Once the ROM was loaded from disk, the Mac boot sequence continued as usual. As before, Open Firmware could also run a binary boot loader, and version 3.0 added support for ELF objects as well as the XCOFF files versions 1.0.5 and 2.0 supported. Also, version 3.0 (as well as some of the last releases of version 2.x, starting with the PowerBook 3400) officially supported direct access to the Open Firmware command prompt from the console (by setting the auto-boot? variable to false from Mac OS, or by holding down Command-Option-O-F at boot).

One major difference between Old World ROM Macs and New World ROM Macs, at least in classic Mac OS, is that the Gestalt selector for the machine type is no longer usable; all New World ROM Macs use the same mach ID, 406 decimal, and the actual machine ID is encoded in the "model" and "compatible" properties of the root node of the Open Firmware device tree. The New World ROM also sets the "compatible" property of the root node to "MacRISC2" (machines that can boot classic Mac OS using "Mac OS ROM") or "MacRISC3" (machines that can only boot OS X or another Unix-like system).

It is somewhat easier to boot a non-Mac-OS operating system on a New World system, and indeed OpenBSD's bootloader only works on a New World system.

The simplest way to distinguish a New World ROM Mac is that it will have a factory built-in USB port. No Old World ROM Mac had a USB port as factory equipment; instead, they used ADB for keyboard and mouse, and mini-DIN-8 "modem" and "printer" serial ports for other peripherals. Also, New World ROM Macs generally do not have a built-in floppy drive.

CHRP boot scripts?
https://www.google.ca/search?q=CHRP+boot+scripts&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=fflb&gfe_rd=ctrl&ei=jzg7U-SQNYfAqAX084CYAQ&gws_rd=cr

booting with yaboot:
http://www.alaska.net/~erbenson/doc/yaboot-howto.html/index.en.html#contents

also note: there are two versions of 'bootX', one only compatible with oldworld macs, and one for macosx, two programs, with same name
http://penguinppc.org/bootloaders/

BootX

BootX is a Mac OS-based bootloader which is only usable on Old World Power Macs. It requires a bootable Mac OS installation.
The Mac OS X bootloader is also called BootX. These are very different programs written by different people, with an unfortunate namespace collision.

also:
http://www.downtowndougbrown.com/category/mac-rom-hacking/
this guy was able to hack the rom somehow to change the start up sound ..
if hes able to do that..

http://www.gla.ac.uk/~gwm1h/macos9/
http://www.gla.ac.uk/~gwm1h/macos9/Z-G4_FirmwareUpdate_2.4.smi.hqx

so what is it that this file updates when run?
does it update just the macos.rom part?
or the entire /rom portion of openfirmware?
is it:
a) openfirmware version itself
b) the boot-rom within the openfirmware rom
c) the macos rom within the openfirmware rom
or
d) the mac os rom within the harddrive

[supernova777]

i guess if i want to explore reading the rom to a file somehow..
im going to have to install linux.. not sure if my powermac g3 will be able to handle ubuntu but giving it a shot now.. latest version is 14.x
http://mirror.vorboss.net/ubuntu-releases//trusty/ but theres no powerpc image there so

http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/releases/precise/release/
http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/releases/precise/release/ubuntu-12.04-desktop-powerpc.iso
apparently u can boot up with just this cd without actually writing the os to your drive
maybe thats enough to try to download a utility to read the rom file?

[supernova777]

i inserted ubuntu cd, typed this into openfirmware:

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boot cd:,\install\yabootand its booting;)

i did notice it said "Loading ELF" aswell

now i bet it takes 3 hrs to load off the cd;) lol
but its booting ubuntu 12.04! on my g3 450mhz

update:its *REAL* slow running off the cd tho..
probably better to install it to a compact flash or ssd
but it looks pretty freaking cool!

update:im trying v5.x of ubuntu now to see if its a leaner + liter version 12.04 had alot
of ui + "eye candy" efects that were too much for my
radeon 7000 + g3;)

update: 5.x ubuntu version didnt boot up correctly.. left me at a black screen with a pointer + seems hung now..
so dont use ubuntu 5

update: trying version 10
http://ftp.uni-kl.de/pub/linux/ubuntu-dvd/ports/releases/10.04/release/ubuntu-10.04-desktop-powerpc.iso

update: version 10 appears to boot up nicely... its alot more responsive + usable on the g3 450mhz then 12 was.. its probably alot better when installed off a compact flash or ssd or even a hard drive (not booting from cd)

re: flashing the bios
apparently u can install FREEDOS fromwithin linux
and use updflash.exe to read + write bios updates
at least u can on a normal pc..
wouldnt that be cool if it works;)
seeing windows help mac os out via linux LOL

would be alot simpler if anyone knew of a utility for OSX that could read/write to the flash rom
maybe it might be possible to do all of this via nvram command directly in openfirmware interface if we knew how to write a script to do this

"Other Open Firmware settings can be changed using the nvram command while the system software is running." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Firmware

if this lets u write to the flash ram to save settings then maybe its possible to open a file on the harddrive and load it as a new version of the rom... first step would be figuring out how to save the current rom as a file tho

[lokki]

try this site to choose a distro:

http://penguinppc.org/about-2/distributions/

the most performance can be gained by running a self-compiled linux i.e. gentoo :-) but that will take literally days on a g3.

[Protools5LEGuy]

The linux way goes to nowhere. Yaboot is chained to BootX.
BootX instead of load Mac Os ROM it load Yaboot, and Yaboot load Linux or Mac Os X but no Mac Os 9.

From PPC luddite guide to debian part 5:
"One bug that qualifies as having been around long before is the infamous disappearing partition bug. Every time you run through the Debian installer, it somehow messes up your Mac OS 9 drivers making any OS 9 partition unbootable. It was a nasty surprise for me, but let me take away all the suspense. Simply boot with your Mac OS install CD, launch Drive Setup, highlight your hard drive from the list, and from the Functions menu select Update Driver. Problem solved. You will now be able to boot into OS 9."
"Another thing you should know about OS 9, never use the Startup Disk control panel to choose a startup disk. It'll mess up yaboot and you won't be able to boot into Linux. If this should happen to you, reset the pram (hold down command + option + p + r keys on startup) and yaboot will be restored.

Dual booting between Linux and OS 9 also has an issue with system clocks. While your Debian system is set to UTC time, your Mac system is set to local time, so though your Linux time may be correct, you Mac clock can be several hours off. Solve this with:

sudo nano /etc/default/rcS

and change UTC=yes to UTC=no. Now when you boot into OS 9, the time should display correctly. Also, if you ever need to change timezones in Debian, you can use:

sudo dpkg-reconfigure tzdata"

[MacTron]

The linux way goes to nowhere. Yaboot is chained to BootX.
BootX instead of load Mac Os ROM it load Yaboot, and Yaboot load Linux or Mac Os X but no Mac Os 9.

From PPC luddite guide to debian part 5:
"One bug that qualifies as having been around long before is the infamous disappearing partition bug. Every time you run through the Debian installer, it somehow messes up your Mac OS 9 drivers making any OS 9 partition unbootable. It was a nasty surprise for me, but let me take away all the suspense. Simply boot with your Mac OS install CD, launch Drive Setup, highlight your hard drive from the list, and from the Functions menu select Update Driver. Problem solved. You will now be able to boot into OS 9."
"Another thing you should know about OS 9, never use the Startup Disk control panel to choose a startup disk. It'll mess up yaboot and you won't be able to boot into Linux. If this should happen to you, reset the pram (hold down command + option + p + r keys on startup) and yaboot will be restored.

Dual booting between Linux and OS 9 also has an issue with system clocks. While your Debian system is set to UTC time, your Mac system is set to local time, so though your Linux time may be correct, you Mac clock can be several hours off. Solve this with:

sudo nano /etc/default/rcS

and change UTC=yes to UTC=no. Now when you boot into OS 9, the time should display correctly. Also, if you ever need to change timezones in Debian, you can use:

sudo dpkg-reconfigure tzdata"

Everything is OK. But Yaboot can't boot Mac Os 9. This doesn't mean that a Mac can't do dual or triple boot with Mac Os 9 or  Linux and/or Mac Os X.
Just different bootloaders chained to a main one.

[supernova777]

mactron: the goal of putting linux on the mac is not to boot os9 with yaboot.. its to try to first read the rom file contents to a file.. and once thats done see if it can FLASH the rom of the openfirmware... why? because i believe that this is the place where this has been disabled, inside the openfirmware programming itself.. thats why noone has ever fixed this before because the code is in a place u cant touch.. on the firmware/bios chip itself, if we can find a way to read from the chip to a a file (to backup the rom) from inside linux then u can copy the fw400's openfirmware rom to the fw800. i only say linux because mac os x  may have protective programming to not let u do this..whereas linux may allow for more raw access to the hardware. doing this in 9 is possible too. but it wouldnt be possible on the fw800 obviously it cant boot to 9, but it can boot linux + X.

but, while on the topic:

If you are using the computer in a multi-user environment and the other users prefer Mac OS X you can (easily) configure yaboot to automatically load Mac OS X or OS 9 instead of Ubuntu. -- https://help.ubuntu.com/community/YabootConfigurationForMacintoshPowerPCsDualBoot

http://lowendmac.com/2010/create-a-triple-boot-mac-with-os-9-os-x-and-linux/

this page makes reference to booting mac os with yaboot but of course this doesnt mean this will work on a fw800 mac  BUT THIS ALL REQUIRES A REAL HARDWARE INSTALL OF LINUX WHICH IM NOT DOING if someone else wants to try to get yaboot to boot 9. feel free. but this would only probably work on a machine that already boots 9 to begin with.

protoolsle5guy: i was using ubuntu not debian, and im not actually installing the linux distro but just booting into it off the cd.. i am not writing anything to do with linux to the hard drive at all. version 10.04 lucid lynx works well for this purpose. im just booting into the live cd to try to get an app to try to access the flash rom inside the mac.

[Protools5LEGuy]

Ubuntu is debian with eyecandy and non free soft.

[MacTron]

Yes, I've misunderstand the whole thing...
... no offense but read/write the Mac Os firmware with linux is the most crazy idea I ever heard. You can be sure that I wish to be wrong...

[supernova777]

ha! i am posting now from inside firefox v3.6.3 on ubuntu 10.04 booted from live cd;)
it works suprisingly well! on this old powermac g3 450mhz;) i am amazed!

i have found this app:
https://apps.ubuntu.com/cat/applications/lucid/flashrom/
but i need to update my repositories or figure out how to download install without apt
because its not working so far to install. probably because the info for this distro on the cd
is outdated... if i was to do a proper install to a harddrive it would update this info i think
and the apt-get links would work but they do not because i am in trial mode on the cd only

It supports a wide range of DIP32, PLCC32, DIP8, SO8/SOIC8, TSOP32, and TSOP40 chips, which use various protocols such as LPC, FWH, parallel flash, or SPI.

The tool can be used to flash BIOS/firmware images for example -- be it proprietary BIOS images or coreboot (previously known as LinuxBIOS) images.

i think this app might able to see the chip.. maybe not. but maybe it will;)

http://flashrom.org/Downloads (maybe this link is the same app?)
of course a powermac is not listed under http://flashrom.org/Supported_hardware
so maybe this is a crazy idea? but sometimes crazy ideas end up working!

[lokki]

you cannot install anything on a live cd!

[lokki]

but i think there would be another path to go, regarding booting os9. we could try to implement a mac boot rom (for os9) that looks like one for osx. so open firmware thinks it is booting osx when in reality it is booting os9.

[supernova777]

you cannot install anything on a live cd!

sure u can -- it just wont be there if u reboot ..
i have downloaded flashrom but icant compile it because im missing some packages. pciutils-devel + the like. the real problem is im using 10.04 and the repositories are not linking properly so aptitude installer is useless

i need to find teh right repository url and then update it under "software sources" in "ubuntu software center"

update: using the software center in ubuntu im trying to instlal the pre-requisite developer tools for compiling the flashrom app i just installed the 'pciutils development package' (which i found in software center by searching for pciutils) theres a few more listed at http://flashrom.org/Downloads#Releases that i need to install before im able to do a proper "make" + "make install"

update: that may have been all it needed.. i just did a "make" command and it seems to be compiling !!!!!!

the binary is now in the directory on my desktop and can be run by typing  './flashrom' to execute but its asking me to "select a programmer" -- ok here it says "to choose the mainboard of this computer use the parameter 'internal'.. other valid choices are dummy, gfxnvidia,drkaiser, satasii, serprog, buspirate_spi, pony_spi, nicintel, nicintel_spi, ogp_spi, linux_spi

Usage: ./flashrom [-h|-R|-L|-p <programmername>[:<parameters>] [-c <chipname>]
[-E|(-r|-w|-v) <file>] [-l <layoutfile> [-i <imagename>]...] [-n] [-f]]
[-V[V[V]]] [-o <logfile>]

 -h | --help                        print this help text
 -R | --version                     print version (release)
 -r | --read <file>                 read flash and save to <file>
 -w | --write <file>                write <file> to flash
 -v | --verify <file>               verify flash against <file>
 -E | --erase                       erase flash memory
 -V | --verbose                     more verbose output
 -c | --chip <chipname>             probe only for specified flash chip
 -f | --force                       force specific operations (see man page)
 -n | --noverify                    don't auto-verify
 -l | --layout <layoutfile>         read ROM layout from <layoutfile>
 -i | --image <name>                only flash image <name> from flash layout
 -o | --output <logfile>            log output to <logfile>
 -L | --list-supported              print supported devices
 -p | --programmer <name>[:<param>] specify the programmer device. One of
    internal, dummy, gfxnvidia, drkaiser, satasii, serprog, buspirate_spi,
    pony_spi, nicintel, nicintel_spi, ogp_spi, linux_spi.

You can specify one of -h, -R, -L, -E, -r, -w, -v or no operation.
If no operation is specified, flashrom will only probe for flash chips.
ubuntu@ubuntu:~/Desktop/flashrom-0.9.7$

ok i see .. i have to type:
./flashrom -p internal

It attemped to start:

ubuntu@ubuntu:~/Desktop/flashrom-0.9.7$ ./flashrom -p internal
flashrom v0.9.7-r1711 on Linux 2.6.32-21-powerpc (ppc)
flashrom is free software, get the source code at http://www.flashrom.org

Calibrating delay loop... OK.
Processor detection/init failed.
Aborting.
Error: Programmer initialization failed.
ubuntu@ubuntu:~/Desktop/flashrom-0.9.7$

this is probably due to the differences between pc motherboads + the powerpc hardware:( it could probably work but would need to be recoded by the software developers i bet to be able to find the chips on a powerpc system.. so this probably the end of the road for this idea;(

ubuntu@ubuntu:~/Desktop/flashrom-0.9.7$ ./flashrom -p dummy
flashrom v0.9.7-r1711 on Linux 2.6.32-21-powerpc (ppc)
flashrom is free software, get the source code at http://www.flashrom.org

Calibrating delay loop... OK.
No EEPROM/flash device found.
Note: flashrom can never write if the flash chip isn't found automatically.

well maybe this app will only work on a amd/intel pc motherboards... it was worth a try.

[supernova777]

but i think there would be another path to go, regarding booting os9. we could try to implement a mac boot rom (for os9) that looks like one for osx. so open firmware thinks it is booting osx when in reality it is booting os9.

this book reviews a bunch of the things mactron was saying about tbxi
perhaps it has a bit more info for you
http://tinyurl.com/pcup93k (preview)
http://venom630.free.fr/pdf/OSXInternals.pdf (full book)
this book has alot of specific info on openfirmware + bootloading etc! take a look!


i dont have a fw800 mac to try to test with... but what i do have is an 867 mdd, that will not boot from the mac os 9 install cd..
do u think that there is some similarities between these two scenarios? i mean, do u think they (apple) would have disabled the booting of the mac os 9 retail cd on the mdd series... in the same fashion or technique that they have disabled booting Mac OS 9 altogether on the fw800?
where would this modification take place? if not in the open firmware itself???

[lokki]

sure u can -- it just wont be there if u reboot ..

well technically you install to ram then :-) but as you said, it will be gone after a reboot.

i don't know what they did to disable booting of retail os9 on mdd's. in fact i think it just did not work they did not make it not work intentionally.

[supernova777]

to Lokki or Jakl
try this:
use a fresh 20gb-40gb-80gb hd
install into the fw400 mac
install both osx and os9 onto the same partition (yes we all know this isnt the best idea to do usualy but this is for testing purposes)
make sure u can boot to both os'es
take that same hard drive out and insert it into the fw800
boot the mdd fw800 up in OSX
and open a terminal
and try:

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bless -info /and see if it says
finderinfo[0]: => Blessed System Folder is /System/Library/CoreServices
finderinfo[3]: => OS 9 blessed folder is /System Folder"

this bless command line tool can recognize mac os 9 blessed folder..

im betting it will see it just fine, and like i said it is not a problem of it "just not working" but its been disabled by apple on purpose when it could have worked all along.

if u already have os9 + osx already installed on seperate drives maybe u can use:
bless -info /PathToDrive/ etc

heres my output when i run the command on my powermac g3 B&W:

$ bless -info /
finderinfo[0]:   7244 => Blessed System Folder is /System/Library/CoreServices
finderinfo[1]:      0 => No Startup App folder (ignored anyway)
finderinfo[2]:      0 => Open-folder linked list empty
finderinfo[3]:     31 => OS 9 blessed folder is /System Folder
finderinfo[4]:      0 => Unused field unset
finderinfo[5]:   7244 => OS X blessed folder is /System/Library/CoreServices
64-bit VSDB volume id:  0x174C8C1A011D70E1

[Jakl]

Okay Chris did what you asked - First of all this is a fresh install from
the fw400 DVD which installed 10.2.6 as well as macos9 start up and classic - same system folder.

Here is what "bless -info /" got.

finderinfo[0]:      2455 => Blessed System Folder is /System/Library/CoreServices
finderinfo[1]:            0 => Startup App folder is
finderinfo[2]:            0 => 1st dir in open-folder list is
finderinfo[3]:     33368 => Classic blessed folder is /System Folder
finderinfo[4]:            0 => Thought-to-be-unused field points to
finderinfo[5]:       2455 => OS X blessed folder is /System/Library/CoreServices
64-bit VSDB volume id: 0xB31A58CB04FC560C

[supernova777]

are u running mac os x leopard? my output was from tiger... seems they changed the language a bit