Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)

[Jakl]

How are you going lokki have you tested it yet?

I'm a little busy will get into it tomorrow - I hope.

[supernova777]

I swear the real problem lies not in the rom but in the openfirmware version

maybe u could hack openfirmware to boot from that device much in the way that they do this usb drive:
https://sites.google.com/site/shawnhcorey/howto-boot-apple-powerpcs-from-a-usb-drive-in-open-firmware

more on openfirmware:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9OMOHl73IE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_khaWNGESs
http://lowendmac.com/2007/fooling-the-os-x-10-5-leopard-installer-with-open-firmware/

[lokki]

it will be monday before i can test.

[Jakl]

I swear the real problem lies not in the rom but in the openfirmware version

maybe u could hack openfirmware to boot from that device much in the way that they do this usb drive:
https://sites.google.com/site/shawnhcorey/howto-boot-apple-powerpcs-from-a-usb-drive-in-open-firmware

more on openfirmware:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9OMOHl73IE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_khaWNGESs
http://lowendmac.com/2007/fooling-the-os-x-10-5-leopard-installer-with-open-firmware/

I like the openfirmware post - not enough said, but I am posting the two different boot lists from a firewire 400 and a firewire 800. Maybe someone may be able to work out what is happening here.

The fw400a and fw400b is from a mdd fw400 dual 1.42ghz machine macos9 bootable
The fw800a and fw800b is from a mdd fw800 single 1.00ghz machine not macos9 bootable.

Here the photos;
The photos do overlap quite a bit for each photo but I'm sure you can follow them.

[Jakl]

Okay folks found one area where there is a difference in the boot processors - see photo.
From fw800b has a few extra boot items;

[supernova777]

if u compare the output from starting up *without* the disk attached..
and then *WITH*..

u should be able to see the "/disk@1" entry below the controller its connected to - as the usb article points out
we can see the 2 disks connected on the ATA bus of your fw800 (ata-3@20000 & ata-4@1f000)
so i think to boot the disk directly with openfirmware u would type:

boot ata-3/disk,\yaboot
or
boot ata-4/disk,\yaboot

this could be incorrect u have to see the devalias for the ata3 + ata4 devices by typing "devalias" and checking thru to find the keyword for this device
but even after all of this.. its possible that the result would be the exact same -that it just will not boot.

the section u have highlighted with the red box indeed seems to be the fw800 extra port on the firewire controller
but i think the code that actually disables booting os9 at all would be  part of the "/rom@ff800000 /boot-rom@fff00000"
programming of the rom itself...... i have no idea how to change this openfirmware rom
but i think it the machine would ever be capable of booting it would have to have this boot-rom reprogrammed to include the mac os 9 handling codes
that are present in any other non-fw800 g4

but do i think that its possible to reflash/reprogram the bootrom?? yes sure! i think so! but requiring some advanced indepth knowledge of this openfirmware system.. undocumented + hard to find knowledge i bet!

we should try to get a thread going to point to reference info on openfirmware
http://www.firmworks.com/QuickRef.html
heres one i just found
but i think this topic deserves its own thread;)

its very ironic people are able to load Linux onto old powermac g4 fw800s but not mac os 9 .. gg apple;)

[lokki]

i attempted to get this up and running today. no chance. i also think we have to hack the open firmware :-)

[supernova777]

i attempted to get this up and running today. no chance. i also think we have to hack the open firmware :-)

Determining BootROM or Firmware Version
http://support.apple.com/kb/ht2568

so theres two roms at play here: the BOOT Rom and the MAC OS Rom

Production information
ROM revision: $77D.44B5
Boot ROM version: 1.1f4
Mac OS ROM file version: 1.3
Serial number: XB00000000XXX-XXX
Software bundle: 694-1137
Sales order number: Not applicable

why dont u compare the BOOT Rom versions of the fw400 vs the fw800?
thats a good place to start
guaranteed they are different


im reading this now:
https://discussions.apple.com/message/18227055#18227055
ok so in this article they used some type of firmware update
that gets run in 9.1 or 9.2
so that he could install mac os x ..
where is this firmware update?

http://support.apple.com/kb/DL1126?viewlocale=en_US
here it is..

Firmware Update 4.2.8 includes improvements to starting up Mac OS X from the local hard disk, FireWire target disk mode, network startup, gigabit networking (on systems with gigabit hardware), and system stability. This update also adds support for additional security options that allow the Open Firmware to be password-protected.

does this enable target disk mode for powermac g3s? nope it says AGP g4 models only

is this firmware the same thing as the "Boot rom" ? i think so?

trouble is.. u cant install this because it requires 9;) LOL

[Jakl]

I forgot to mention Chris that I did try to boot the macos9 disk and there was a circle with a line through it much like a non-smoking sign without the cigarette. Just wouldn't boot.

The 4 different jpg's I placed here are the two different mdd's - 2 jpgs for fw400 - 2 jpgs for fw800. The fifth photo jpg is the comparison between the two mdd openfirmware boots. The boot Rom versions for open firmware are exactly the same number etc. the only difference is the red box that I put in there. So the same openfirmware boot rom(motherboard) but different computer boot rom.

The firmware on my fw400 model is 4.4.8f2
The firmware on my fw800 model is 4.6.0f1

It does say previous to the red square I marked in the photo that it was a programmers switch - whether that is the point for the switch between the two - boot vs nonboot - maybe it would be the search for the line of code that refers to this?

[/quote]
so theres two roms at play here: the BOOT Rom and the MAC OS Rom
[/quote]

So the openformware Boot rom opens the ports to allow input/output - and even when I tried to boot up at this point from o/f boot rom it wouldn't - so it must the boot rom of the computer not the openfirmware boot that is the culprit because both openfirmware boot ROM are the same - refer to photo jpg fw400a and fw800a.

So there must be a openfirmware boot rom and a motherboard boot rom and a macos rom - more spanners in the works? who knows?

So anybody know how to hack the o/f Boot ROM comp Boot ROM or flash it?

I'm sure someone in this group knows whats going on here - some secrets that they may be able to tell us about what is happening.

[Jakl]

I just read the above post written by me - bloody confusing.

In other words if the computer firmware for the fw400 and the fw800 are different.
And the openfirmware boot are the same then what does that mean?

Something to do with the computer firmware?
So if the Fw4oo firmware could be loaded into the Fw800 firmware we would have a
macos9 bootable system with working fw800 and usb2 ports wouldn't we - since these ports are opened up at the level of openfirmware.

Anybody's thoughts?

[supernova777]

So if the Fw4oo firmware could be loaded into the Fw800 firmware we would have a
macos9 bootable system with working fw800 and usb2 ports wouldn't we - since these ports are opened up at the level of openfirmware.

exactly.. but how does this get accomplished?
short of pulling both bios chips off each motherboard + copying the contents of the fw400 to the fw800'c bios chip.. with a chip programmer, and then reattaching the chips.. if they are even viewable on the mainboards that is..

[supernova777]

So the openformware Boot rom opens the ports to allow input/output - and even when I tried to boot up at this point from o/f boot rom it wouldn't - so it must the boot rom of the computer not the openfirmware boot that is the culprit because both openfirmware boot ROM are the same - refer to photo jpg fw400a and fw800a.

i believe this statement made by you is incorrect/false.
the "fff00000" this is not a version.. but rather a location..
the computer is saying .. "i have located teh bootrom..and it is located at "fff00000" same way that your house is located at 123 ABC street.
this is not a version code.. the fact that u see the same fff00000 on each image is nothing to do with the version or contents of the boot rom,
but rather its "address" - remember this text u took a picture of is the output of a command telling the computer to list its device tree

the rom@ff800000 is the actual chip hardware address
and the next like about "Bootrom" is the firmware file.rom inside that chip..
if u notice the next line down is called "macos" thats probably a copy of the macos rom that gets copied there
so theres two roms stored inside the chip... if not maybe "macos" is a program or saved settings .. but i doubt it i think its a copy of the "macos rom" like the one that mactron has shared with you.. perhaps theres some way within openfirmware to query these roms to see the version attribute.

according to the article
http://support.apple.com/kb/ht2568

the directions to see bootrom version are displayed the first thing u see when opening openfirmware

1. Shut down.
2. Start up and hold down cmd-opt-o-f
3. The Boot ROM Revision is displayed at the top of the screen.
4. Type "bye" followed by <return> to continue starting up in Mac OS.

i think the "firmware" + boot rom are the same thing.

so u want to figure out how to put The firmware on *fw400 model 4.4.8f2*
onto the firmware on the fw800 model -- overwriting the 4.6.0f1 firmware
which means u would have to find some type of firmware flashing utility that runs on OSX to do this
and have both machines with OSX  installations and somehow backup the rom on the fw400
and then flash it on the fw800.

[Jakl]

What you said makes much more sense - I was getting a little confused about all this.

If we could get the fw400 and fw800 roms and compare we would definitely see the difference but who - you know maybe a macos9 programmer from Apple is checking us out  hopefully they can lead us in the right direction.

Come on down fellas and help us boot macos9 on the G4 fw800 macs and the G5's.

[DieHard]

I check this thread everyday... and it gives a terrible case of bad Deja Vu...

This is like an old wound that never heals...

[Jakl]

I can imagine

[lokki]

according to this site http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/clfs/view/svn/ppc/appendices/macmiscellany.html open firmware can be changed by an install of osx. so maybe we just have to find the right osx version that lets us boot os9?

[lokki]

also apparently any linux install will install yaboot (boot loader) into open firmware as well. maybe we can try to install linux on a fw800 and from yaboot we get the option to boot os9?

[MacTron]

also apparently any linux install will install yaboot (boot loader) into open firmware as well. maybe we can try to install linux on a fw800 and from yaboot we get the option to boot os9?

Yaboot is installed on the hard disk not in firmware and it can't load Mac Os 9 AFAIK

[supernova777]

also apparently any linux install will install yaboot (boot loader) into open firmware as well. maybe we can try to install linux on a fw800 and from yaboot we get the option to boot os9?

Yaboot is installed on the hard disk not in firmware and it can't load Mac Os 9 AFAIK

packages: deblocker, disk-label, obp-tftp, telnet, mac-parts, mac-files, hfs-plus-files, fat-files, iso-9660-files, bootinfo-loader, xcoff-loader, pre-loader, elf-loader, usb-his-class, usb-ms-class, usb-audio-class, sbp2-disk, ata-disk, atapi-disk, bootpath-search, terminal-emulator

if u look carefully it seems the rom has a "toolkit" of certain software packages built into itself..
this yaboot seems to be one of them, it would have to be independant of the disk because u can stilll
use this command to boot from a usb drive with no hard drive or mac os 9 "install" installed
these packages seem to be neccessary to be independant of the drives contents and
barebones essentials for being able to function and access files + boot

we know aliases is a section with keynames referring to hardware devices for easy reference in typed commands
but what about "options" ?  i wonder what is stored there.. or if theres a way to list these options the same way that you would list the aliases with the "Devalias" command that was referred to in the usb article..  heres another one

http://hints.macworld.com/article.php?story=20060301112336384

maybe this "Bootinfo-loader" package simply was altered to remove the code that boots mac os 9.
its probably a simple 1 line of code that is disabling it from working .. thats all that would be necessary to "disable" the boot

lokki: check this out for a bit more info:
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CEcQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpeople.ffii.org%2F~zoobab%2Fbh.udev.org%2Ffilez%2Fapple%2Fmac6100%2FBootX.pdf&ei=Yv06U8akB4Kj2QXe54CACA&usg=AFQjCNGpzbOkWJT-alUgTOqtxsdflzwsKg&sig2=P8AvZQFALaj58djJ0ijZUg

The Macintosh has used a more or less unchanged boot mechanism for over a decade. Even
with initial introduction of OpenFirmware, little changed. The advent of the iMac, and later Mac OS
X, has altered the boot sequence significantly. This paper contains a cursory look at OpenFirmware,
the booting mechanisms used by various operating systems that run on the Power Macintosh (such
as Linux, NetBSD and OpenBSD), as well as the different booting mechanics of several generations
of Macintosh hardware. Particular emphasis will be paid to the boot process of Mac OS X (from the
firmware up to early kernel initialization) and its bootloader, BootX.

http://www.dialectronics.com/Words/OF_Part_I.shtml
http://www.dialectronics.com/Words/OF_Part_II.shtml

The child nodes under /packages are specific support packages necessary for bootstrapping an operating system.

http://www.openfirmware.org/1275/mejohnson/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Firmware
from a quick read it seems to code openfirmware u need to be familiar with
a language called Forth.. "Open Firmware may be accessed through its Forth language shell interface"

and or perhaps its subdivision called "macforth"
http://www.amazon.com/MacFORTH-Programming-hands-introduction-programming/dp/B00071QF1K

[supernova777]

also apparently any linux install will install yaboot (boot loader) into open firmware as well. maybe we can try to install linux on a fw800 and from yaboot we get the option to boot os9?

but if the linux installation process is somehow able to modify the openfirmare rom there must be a way to give it the normal "mac os 9 booting" version of the rom aswell.
if the rom is indeed a normal bios chip.. there should be a way to flash it like any other computer..

perhaps if Linux was installed on BOTH machines, we could use some type of linux program to copy the rom contents to a file..
and then copy the rom to the fw800 machine and use the same rom linux utility to flash the rom!!!!!!

we know the rom is flashable.. or apple would never have released firmware updates!!!!
first step
we need to find a program capable of copying the contents of the rom to a file
whether this app is in osx or linux.. is the question