Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)

[iMic]

No problem, something like this should be archived in as many places as possible.

I've posted a few updates to that thread in the last half hour or so. Mac OS 9.2 is now successfully booting to a usable system on an iBook G4/800MHz, which is pretty remarkable. It's still somewhat "hacky" though. It relies on some Open Firmware commands stored in the NVRAM to make the machine boot and to bypass an issue that holds the internal display at 640 x 480. I'm fairly certain that hardware video acceleration isn't working still as well, so everything runs on the software renderer. Not perfect for anything graphics intensive, but probably still adequate for some applications.

Ideally, I'd be able to find where the issues that the OF commands address lie in the Mac OS ROM and System Suitcase and fix them so I could do away with the need for the Open Firmware commands entirely. That would make the install reasonably reliable (a flat PRAM battery wouldn't render the system un-bootable, for starters).

I also have an iMac G4/1GHz 17" that is OS X-only that I'd be interested to try this on once I have it working correctly. One machine at a time though.


Cheers,

iMic.

[MacTron]

Ideally, I'd be able to find where the issues that the OF commands address lie in the Mac OS ROM and System Suitcase and fix them so I could do away with the need for the Open Firmware commands entirely.

Here is where I've placed some of your work:
take a look at Reply #4

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1967.msg9998#msg9998

So, maybe we already have some of those Open Firmware commands...
I'm waiting for an xServe G4 to test it, and a few things more:

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1964.msg10043#msg10043

[iMic]

I'm cross-posting this from ThinkClassic since I think it's something everyone here may find interesting.


I've compiled all of the fixes in the TC forum thread into a Generic ROM, based off the Mac OS ROM version 10.2.1. The Generic ROM lacks any machine-specific checks (no looking for specific PowerMacX,X or PowerBookX,X identifiers) and is capable of initiating the startup process on any one of the following systems:

• MacRISC -  Most OldWorld PowerPC Macintosh systems and possibly clones.
• MacRISC2 - NewWorld PowerPC systems manufactured prior to the Mac OS X switch.
• MacRISC3 - NewWorld PowerPC systems designed to only boot into Mac OS X.
• MacRISC4 - PowerPC 970 "G5" based Macintosh computers.
• Classic - The Mac OS X Classic Environment.

This doesn't guarantee that Mac OS 9 will start on your particular hardware configuration, nor does it provide accurate hardware support. Machines like the Power Mac G4 MDD FireWire 800 and iMac G4 Flat Panel 17"/1GHz are more likely to be supported for example, while machines like the Power Mac G5 are basically guaranteed not to work at all.

In addition, hardware support is more likely when you are running the most up-to-date versions of system extensions and drivers. Even some well known Mac OS 9 distributions, such as the common OS9General image, still use older versions of extensions like the Apple Audio Extension. Aim for the absolute latest disk you can. Personally, I used the 922DragInstall for the purposes of testing and it seemed to work well.


An alternate method is still required to format the drive in your Mac to include the Mac OS 9 disk drivers. You can do this by faking your machine identifier to include MacRISC / MacRISC2 in Open Firmware, like so...

Code: [Select]

dev /
.properties
" PowerBook4,3" encode-string " model" property
" PowerBook4,3" encode-string " MacRISC" encode-string encode+ " MacRiSC2" encode-string encode+ " MacRISC3" encode-string encode+ " Power Macintosh" encode-string encode+ " compatible" property
multi-boot
...making sure to replace PowerBook4,3 with your machines' ID, then booting from an OS X install disc (the option for Mac OS 9 disk drivers will then be visible in Disk Utility). Alternatively you can connect your machine to an older OS 9 supported Mac via FireWire Target Disk Mode and format the drive from there.


This Generic ROM can be distinguished from the standard version by the differences in its version numbers. Get Info will display the version as Mac OS CPU Software 5.9 (Generic), and System Profiler and About This Mac will display the version as Mac OS ROM 10.2.1 (Generic).


Download

https://app.box.com/s/c98w8ine81ublultkuwp (2.6MB .SIT Archive)

Please be aware that this is not a permanent link. If someone here at Mac OS 9 Lives is willing to store it somewhere a little more permanent, that would be fantastic.




Mac OS 9.2.2 running on an iBook G4/800MHz with the Generic 10.2.1 ROM.


As always, pictures and a breakdown of what modifications were required and how they were achieved is available in the forum thread over on ThinkClassic, and if anyone wants to note it down or keep a version here for archival purposes, that's also more than welcome.

Hopefully this helps to get Mac OS 9 running on some of those FW800 Power Macs as well.


Cheers,

iMic.

[blemk]

New to both of your forums.. Glad you two are messaging (cross positing hopefully not disliked/prohibited by either of you), again thank you both for two great forums relating to pre-X OS.

I have had a few minutes each night to play with incoming hardware. One of these past days this week, forgot which as I didn't get much time with it, someone hooked me up with a full FW400 machine (dual core 1.0 ghz).. With that said, I have case from FW400 and FW800 and two boards for first and 1 for later that both work. In the great situation to have one of each working (FW400 and FW800, FW800 needs to be put back together in it's original case)... Having both machines functioning will make testing quite a bit quicker as I can simply swap drives from one to the other now. Eager to at least help test if not become more involved sooner than later.

[supernova777]

hey imic
sorry i didnt read that well..
but.. does this ibook hack work on any speed ibook?
or just the 800mhz?

i was offered one randomly the other day
but im not sure which speed it was.

[iMic]

It's a bit hit and miss to as what machines it'll work on. I all depends on what driver support Mac OS 9 has for the hardware it's running on. All this ROM does is remove the machine check that prevents Mac OS 9 from attempting to start up. Whether it successfully completes the boot is still up to the OS.

I tested it on an 800MHz iBook (PowerBook6,3), but it should also work on the 933MHz and 1GHz versions too. It may also work on the later 1.0/1.2/1.33GHz 2004 iBooks (PowerBook6,5) and the 1.33/1.42GHz 2005 iBooks (PowerBook6,7), but I simply don't have these machines to test with. Also keep in mind that even on my iBook, I needed to apply an Open Firmware trick to achieve 1024 x 768 resolution, and there aren't any drivers for the video hardware, so it's limited in its graphics capabilities.

This really is a "try it and see" type project, so if you're up for a challenge, then by all means go ahead and give it a shot.

[MacTron]

Wow!
Great job with the Mac Os ROM.

I'm cross-posting this from ThinkClassic since I think it's something everyone here may find interesting.

Thank You for posting here your work.

It's a pain that this procedure did not worked with the Mac Mini. The Mother board layout is based on the Intrepid IC, and this IC is supported with Mac Os 9, so in my opinion, may be related with "enabling" the 7447 to Mac Os 9, in the way that some 7448/7447 CPU upgrades do...

It's a bit hit and miss to as what machines it'll work on. I all depends on what driver support Mac OS 9 has for the hardware it's running on. All this ROM does is remove the machine check that prevents Mac OS 9 from attempting to start up. Whether it successfully completes the boot is still up to the OS.

Checking the motherboard layout and all the components will help. Mainly the CPU and the North/South bridges. The motherboard name also helps to identification of similar or different models despite his commercial name.

[DieHard]

It's a pain that this procedure did not worked with the Mac Mini. The Mother board layout is based on the Intrepid IC, and this IC is supported with Mac Os 9, so in my opinion, may be related with "enabling" the 7447 to Mac Os 9, in the way that some 7448/7447 CPU upgrades

Here is a 7447a that works under OS 9 like you mentioned
http://www.newertech.com/downloads/nwtmang4max.pdf

Hey Mactron, I'm with you, the I/O controller (Intrepid) will most likely not be an obstacle, and the the Mac Mini G4 (1.25,1.33,1.42,1.5) all use a Radeon 9200 so these systems should be promising...(I was really bummed to see the grey screen on the Mac Mini tested, but the 1.5 is the only one with 64MB vram... we need to test a G4 1.25 Original)
https://www.thinkclassic.org/viewtopic.php?id=46

On many other unsupported G4s one of our greatest hurdle will be the graphics controller, no Graphics acceleration under OS9 will make or break us... We have made some awesome progress and I thank all of you, but for OS9 to be usable (especially in a DAW environment) we need to get a source to write us some new drivers for some of the basic Video Chip sets that currently elude us.

Also, for our DAW usefulness, the iBooks and iMacs will be more of a novelty, they lack the power (low cache) that we crave.... however, the iMac 17" 1.25 with a 167 bus could be a useful contender as a space saving DAW, so i would love to know if one of these gets fully going in OS 9
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/imac/specs/imac_1.25_17_fp.html

[Protools5LEGuy]

It's a bit hit and miss to as what machines it'll work on. I all depends on what driver support Mac OS 9 has for the hardware it's running on. All this ROM does is remove the machine check that prevents Mac OS 9 from attempting to start up. Whether it successfully completes the boot is still up to the OS.

...

This really is a "try it and see" type project, so if you're up for a challenge, then by all means go ahead and give it a shot.

WOW  Where no Mac has been before...

...We need to get a source to write us some new drivers for some of the basic Video Chip sets that currently elude us.

I cannot believe how this post have evolved since I started it...

I have made a new post about developing graphics driver for OS9. Maybe we can go there too. Who knows?

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1985.0

[iMic]

It's a pain that this procedure did not worked with the Mac Mini. The Mother board layout is based on the Intrepid IC, and this IC is supported with Mac Os 9, so in my opinion, may be related with "enabling" the 7447 to Mac Os 9, in the way that some 7448/7447 CPU upgrades

Here is a 7447a that works under OS 9 like you mentioned
http://www.newertech.com/downloads/nwtmang4max.pdf

Hey Mactron, I'm with you, the I/O controller (Intrepid) will most likely not be an obstacle, and the the Mac Mini G4 (1.25,1.33,1.42,1.5) all use a Radeon 9200 so these systems should be promising...(I was really bummed to see the grey screen on the Mac Mini tested, but the 1.5 is the only one with 64MB vram... we need to test a G4 1.25 Original)

I've attempted to apply some of the PowerLogix / NewerTech fixes on the Mac Mini that allows OS 9 to work with the 7447 CPU. Unfortunately, it still hangs at the grey screen.

https://www.thinkclassic.org/viewtopic.php?pid=3280#p3280

Not really sure where to go from here. Keep in mind that mine is a 1.5GHz last-generation model, which could be part of the problem.

[DieHard]

Not really sure where to go from here...

iMic,

You have already inspired many, where ever you go from here is gravy... thank you for all the hard work... it reminds me of the days we used to use Norton disk edit in MS DOS to Hex out License keys from DBase software Applications (same concept to keep the file the same number of Bytes)... excellent work

[Protools5LEGuy]

Not really sure where to go from here. Keep in mind that mine is a 1.5GHz last-generation model, which could be part of the problem.

The machines that left are eMac. Educacional Macs. They are iMacs with CRT and G4...
The first ones 700/800 models are able to boot 9.

This one http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/emac/specs/emac_1.0.html is the easiest. It has the same hardware but if it has superdrive, is OSX only, and with Combo is OS9 able. For sure with your modded ROM DVD model should boot 9.

This http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/emac/specs/emac_1.25.html is a maybe.

The real handicap is http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/emac/specs/emac_1.42.html. This one have a ATI Radeon 9600 graphics with 64 MB of dedicated DDR SDRAM, as well as support for AirPort Extreme and Bluetooth (neither pre-installed) in an all-in-one case with a 17.0" (16.0" viewable area) CRT display (resolution support up to 1280x960 in 24-bit color). This thing would be the hardest for sure...

[MacTron]

Keep in mind that mine is a 1.5GHz last-generation model, which could be part of the problem.

According to:

http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/mac_mini/faq/differences-between-mac-mini-g4-models.html

The main difference of your Mac from previous models is the 64MB of VRAM.
This shouldn't have any bad effect. Ask to ClassicHasClass about this,(we have had some interactions in the past)  because he have the only case I know of a unofficial Radeon 9000 with 128 MB of VRAM, instead of the ordinary 64 MB, if I'm not wrong .

Not really sure where to go from here.

Taking a look to the block diagram:



I can suggest you to try to startup the machine from any means you can, ie CDROM, Firewire, USB...
May be you can circumvent the thing that can't let the Mac Os 9 boot.

[Protools5LEGuy]

Not really sure where to go from here. Keep in mind that mine is a 1.5GHz last-generation model, which could be part of the problem.

Is possible in openfirmware to limit the amount of the graphics RAM?

I only know of Radeon 9200 PCI working on G3s B&W on OS9. Not sure what drivers you should use for AGP. Maybe 2003' ATI drivers update...

Maybe just the MacMinis are not classics...   

I am with DieHard. We need to test previous minis...

[supernova777]

I only know of Radeon 9200 PCI working on G3s B&W on OS9. Not sure what drivers you should use for AGP. Maybe 2003' ATI drivers update...

this topic has been discussed many times here... u should know.

[iMic]

I can suggest you to try to startup the machine from any means you can, ie CDROM, Firewire, USB...
May be you can circumvent the thing that can't let the Mac Os 9 boot.

I've tried booting from the internal hard drive and via FireWire. Still boots to a grey screen. There is also a property in Open Firmware under the graphics accelerator called "VRAM,totalsize" with a default value of 04000000 - I reduced this to 02000000 with no effect.


UPDATE

If I attempt to start Mac OS 9 from within Open Firmware (using boot hd:,\\:tbxi), I do manage to get some text output:



If that's a little difficult to read, it says:

Code: [Select]

, checksum error
Loading ELF

DO-QUIESCE finished
Disregard the Checksum Error. It's because I've modified the ROM to add the additional MacRISC strings. It continues loading even after the checksum error. I can see that Quiesce is called from within the ROM to Open Firmware during startup, but I can't see what should be executing after it, nor do I know what any of it does.

[Protools5LEGuy]

I can suggest you to try to startup the machine from any means you can, ie CDROM, Firewire, USB...
May be you can circumvent the thing that can't let the Mac Os 9 boot.

I've tried booting from the internal hard drive and via FireWire. Still boots to a grey screen. There is also a property in Open Firmware under the graphics accelerator called "VRAM,totalsize" with a default value of 04000000 - I reduced this to 02000000 with no effect.


UPDATE

If I attempt to start Mac OS 9 from within Open Firmware (using boot hd:,\\:tbxi), I do manage to get some text output:

Do you have the Blutooth or the Extreme cards installed?

Based on MacTron's MacMini there are LOTS of devices that you could "turnoff"  on Mini in OpenFirmware for testing purposes.


I mean, in the scenario where you have a FireWire or USB soundcard you could still build a OS9 DAW disabling a any or some of these:


Bluetooth card: There are bluetooth drivers for OS9 http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1300.0

USB1

USB2

AirPort Xtreme

microPMU

Modem Module

Audio Codec

Graphics Card (Yes, you can have a headless OS9 DAW thru Timbuktu/VNC)

I would try that.

iMic. Even with most of us been OS9 centric, We,  as part of the living PowerPC community have to give thanks to you also for the develop of Leopard Assist. You have broke barriers in both sides of the wall. You have made TigerOnly computers go Leo and OSXonly computers go back to OS9. THANKS for been a truly liberator.

[Protools5LEGuy]

@MacTron: Is the IC of PHY Ethernet the same than in a Sawtooth? It is not Gigabit Ethernet, but 10/100
Is the IC of PHY FW Agere or TI?

[supernova777]

protoolsle5guy;
what makes u think that the key to making anything work is to disable soemthing in openfirmware?
i saw u comment about this before, earlier, perhaps in this very thread, it was in reference to the firewire 800 ports...the presence of the firewire 800 ports is not what stops the mac os boot..

i havent seen many of us really discuss the particulars of what actually happens during a mac os 9 boot ..
a brief revisit to the basics: the mac os rom file effectively replaces the actual chip inside 'old world rom' macs
the mac os rom file itself is actually a CHRP script with another file embedded within itself.. according to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_ROM

The Toolbox ROM was embedded inside a CHRP script in the System Folder called "Mac OS ROM", along with a short loader stub and a copy of the Happy Mac icon suitable for display from Open Firmware. Once the ROM was loaded from disk, the Mac boot sequence continued as usual. As before, Open Firmware could also run a binary boot loader, and version 3.0 added support for ELF objects as well as the XCOFF files versions 1.0.5 and 2.0 supported. Also, version 3.0 (as well as some of the last releases of version 2.x, starting with the PowerBook 3400) officially supported direct access to the Open Firmware command prompt from the console (by setting the auto-boot? variable to false from Mac OS, or by holding down Command-Option-O-F at boot).

One major difference between Old World ROM Macs and New World ROM Macs, at least in classic Mac OS, is that the Gestalt selector for the machine type is no longer usable; all New World ROM Macs use the same mach ID, 406 decimal, and the actual machine ID is encoded in the "model" and "compatible" properties of the root node of the Open Firmware device tree. The New World ROM also sets the "compatible" property of the root node to "MacRISC2" (machines that can boot classic Mac OS using "Mac OS ROM") or "MacRISC3" (machines that can only boot OS X or another Unix-like system).

reading the threads + posts here i feel that alot of u are out of synch with each other in terms of understanding + in depth knowledge + familiarity with the relevant specifics
perhaps it would be helpful to alll minds readin this thread to revisit in another thread the following:
a) the specifics of what actually happens .. chain of events. order of operations... during a mac os boot..
b) why the firmware rollback of the mdd fw800 to fw400 worked + what exactly it changed that enabled it to work
c) why the changes in the mac os rom edited by imic has enabled a boot WITHOUT a firmware downgrade
i think getting everyone on the same page in understanding these facts will provide groundwork for the next ssteps.
a) should be answerable in detail by examining closely the original "new world rom" documentation from apple

Boot Process Overview

The following list is a high level view of the execution path take when a NewWorld-based computer boots Mac OS:

    The POST code runs (preliminary diagnostics, boot beep, initialization, and setup). This is similar to code in a Mac OS ToolBox ROM, but it is different in that it does not contain OS-specific code.

    Open Firmware initializes and begins execution, including building the Device Tree.

    Open Firmware loads the "bootinfo" file, based on defaults and NVRAM settings.

    Open Firmware executes the "Forth" script in the "bootinfo" file, which contains information about the rest of the file and instructions to read both the Trampoline code and the ToolBox ROM Image and place them into a temporary place in memory.

    The "Forth" script transfers control to the Trampoline code, which functions as the transition between Open Firmware and the beginning of the Mac OS execution.

    The Trampoline code gathers information about the system from Open Firmware, creates data structures based on this information, terminates Open Firmware, and rearranges the contents of memory to an interim location in physical memory space.

    The Trampoline code transfers control to the ToolBox ROM Image initialization code.
Startup and the Startup Disk Control Panel

The boot sequence, up to loading and execution of the Mac OS ROM image, is controlled by Open Firmware. To provide a user experience like previous Macintoshes, Open Firmware now supports searching for possible boot devices and user overrides of boot devices using keyboard input such as Command-Shift-Option-Delete or "C" to force booting from a CD-ROM.

When the user selects a startup device in the Startup Disk control panel, Startup Disk no longer sets a value in Mac OS PRAM. Instead it generates an Open Firmware path to the device and saves that path in NVRAM as Open Firmware's "boot-device" configuration variable. Open Firmware tries the device specified by "boot-device" first. If this device is unavailable or the user has overridden this with keyboard input, Open Firmware scans other devices looking for bootable drives. Once Open Firmware selects a device, it sets the "bootpath" property in the "chosen" node to the path to that device. The "bootpath" property is what the Mac OS ROM subsequently uses to locate and load Mac OS from disk.

In order for a device to be bootable, Open Firmware needs methods for accessing the drive. For built-in devices, such as SCSI and ATA, these methods are supplied by Open Firmware. For plug-in cards, the PCI configuration ROM on each card must supply these methods for the card as specified in the PCI Open Firmware binding.

http://web.archive.org/web/20041011114718/http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn/pdf/tn1167.pdf
http://web.archive.org/web/20020305055031/http://www.netneurotic.de/mac/openfirmware.html
http://web.archive.org/web/19990420212629/http://www.openfirmware.org/1275/home.html

i also found this site: http://www.forth.com/
http://softlayer-dal.dl.sourceforge.net/project/thinking-forth/reprint/rel-1.0/thinking-forth-color.pdf

[supernova777]

Code: [Select]

, checksum error
Loading ELF

DO-QUIESCE finished

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiesce
apparently in programming terms, this means to temporarily pause to allow it to fully complete the previously queued commands.