Author Topic: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9  (Read 4021 times)

Offline blaylok

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Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« on: September 05, 2023, 01:19:00 AM »
Hi there, Mac Noob here.

I have been trying (unsuccessfully) to setup an M Audio Delta 44 on my Quicksilver 867mhz under OS9.

I just can't seem to get any sound out of the breakout box no matter what settings I try. At times I can see activity in the Delta mixer/panel but just no sound at the outputs.

Recently tried a fresh install of the Diehard instant DAW img and another attempt to get the Delta 44 working - unfortunately the same  'no sound at the breakout box outputs', extra fiddling around in the Delta panel/mixer and the OS9 Sound Manager results in.either still no sound or a system freeze that requires a hard reset of the quicksilver.

I have tested the Delta 44 on my Windows machine and it is working fine.

Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you

Offline DieHard

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2023, 08:58:31 AM »
Unfortunately, there are not too many things to try :)

Personally, I would trouble shoot like this...

1) Clean PCI edge contacts with contact cleaner (or eraser) or both and try a different PCI slot, make sure it is seated well
2) Make a clean OS install, load drivers form here
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,4438.0.html
and then test via control panel

After that, if it is still not working, time to try another 44, here is one BRAND NEW, NO BIDS
M-Audio Delta 44 Digital Audio Sound Card (New in Box)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/335011046322?hash=item4e0036e3b2:g:fnEAAOSwP4tk531n&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwKRiO48qhLA%2F41ayvgefrwGi9u1sng6HNZHsp5woJu6W2Fgaer%2F7fHIDwp1i4%2FxuF1mIPi8xDsms%2FlvolRKEKSlwx9h9THqMtK9Cju7VSTmw2JO%2FeFM2tWDwqLwJwS0h4QjaWetQQetvC9L%2BtnCQz%2FsEzChLWPgVJmZl0ZxeW1zHBTuQtJQmMk7Vwr8dbtXU5sUJJ445sp8JqQGJML7AVowMdeoTq61Q6aA%2F7GIVgI3Ks%2FWJTVK%2BMxK42ZJc%2FxjUFw%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR9yh-ODMYg

Or lastly go for a 2496 if you can live with 2-in/2-out and MIDI
« Last Edit: September 06, 2023, 08:19:22 AM by DieHard »

Online IIO

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2023, 04:01:50 PM »
we´ve had those back in the days and i can confirm that it should work fine with soundmanager and ASIO.
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Offline blaylok

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2023, 11:45:02 PM »
Thank you for the advice Diehard I will give that try


Also thank you IIO for confirmation that it does work

Offline DieHard

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2023, 10:19:31 AM »
I hope you bought it, it sold for $.01 (One penny plus shipping)

Offline blaylok

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2023, 03:12:55 AM »
Sorry I missed out on it Diehard.

Just another question tho...

I read in some Macintosh system requirements for the Delta 44 that G3/G4 accelerator cards not supported,
I have a OWC Mercury Extreme G4 in my Quicksilver - could this be the issue that is preventing me from getting sound out of the breakout box?

Delta 44

Minimum system requirements (MAC) :are G3/G4 (accel. cards not supported) 500MHz, OS 9.2.2, 128MB RAM; OS X 10.1.5, 10.2.6 or greater, 256MB RAM, OMS 2.3.8 for MIDI under OS 9.2.2

Offline DieHard

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2023, 08:15:57 AM »
Quote
read in some Macintosh system requirements for the Delta 44 that G3/G4 accelerator cards not supported,
I have a OWC Mercury Extreme G4 in my Quicksilver - could this be the issue that is preventing me from getting sound out of the breakout box?

I doubt it, I think they are referring to actual PCI/CPU upgrade cards, NOT CPU upgrades, but I am not sure, never heard of any interface issues with a CPU/daughterboard socket upgrade

Online IIO

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2023, 12:03:52 PM »
mine worked with an XLR8 G4 in an oldworld mac.
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Offline GaryN

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2023, 02:41:49 PM »
Let's apply some logic:
* The 44 works in a different (Windoze) machine: Conclusion, it's a good unit.
* In the QS, the Delta Control Panel loads and displays but no sound.

You said you sometimes see indications of audio in the Delta display. Does that look like accurate audio or just random noise?
I don't see that you've indicated which DAW or such you're trying to use. Which is it?

My $$ is on the ASIO, or lack of it, or incorrectness of it. Why?

* In order for the Delta to work here, you must have the Delta ASIO driver in the DAW's ASIO folder.
* You should NOT have the Sound Manager ASIO driver in there too. There will be issues because Sound Manager and whatever DAW will bump heads and even crash the computer. There's no good reason to route your DAW's output thru the Sound Manager anyway.

So, assuming that you (hopefully) got the Delta 44 ASIO along with the Control Panel and Extension, make sure that ASIO is where it's supposed to be in the DAW folder.

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2023, 04:57:54 PM »
You should NOT have the Sound Manager ASIO driver in there too. There will be issues because Sound Manager and whatever DAW will bump heads and even crash the computer.

sounds like something is seriously wrong on your computer. :)
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Offline GaryN

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2023, 10:39:49 PM »
sounds like something is seriously wrong on your computer. :)
Really? I have a Delta 1010. I have previously had/used a Delta 44 and a 66 in my MDD and the 44 in my previous G3 Desktop with a Sonnet G4 500Mhz CPU.
There are combinations of DAWs, Delta ASIO drivers and OS9-running hardware that work with few or no issues and there are some that don't. That seems to be especially true when CPU upgrades are installed. I had/have Sonnets, blaylok has an OWC Mercury.

Often, everything purrs along smoothly until you happen to do something that makes the Mac want to spit out a chime or maybe you launch an editor that happens to be set to use the Sound Manager ASIO thru the Delta. Then, SM tries to grab and use the Delta while it's being held by the DAW. In OSX this probably wouldn't even cause a momentary hiccup, but in OS ≤9, it can cause a System hang… you know, one of those things that were supposed to be fixable by holding down the Command-Period key combination that never works. That's one scenario… there are others too. The simplest way to prevent them is to not have the SM ASIO in the DAW ASIO folder.

I know this because I've been there and done that… more than once.

Any more observations you need explained?  :)


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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2023, 05:05:55 AM »
Any more observations you need explained?  :)

i do not question your personal experience, but i question the reason you describe, because my experience is different and because there is no logical explanation for the issue.

multiple ASIO drivers installed with the same app should be unproblematic because they simply have nothing to do with each other. ASIO drivers are loaded one by one and if a driver is not selected as output driver, it is not connected to the app´s audio. ASIO drivers are also not not connected to each other in any way.

in cubase or nuendo you can switch between soundmanager and delta even while the program runs and there is no system crash, and some programs even ship with multiple drivers preinstalled. there is also no manual which would recommend against installing and using multiple drivers.

and it is totally useful to have ASIO soundmanager installed in all ASIO apps because that is your only chance to run 2 different programs at once when you only have one pro interface around. (might not be the case here of course)
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Offline blaylok

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2023, 08:17:42 AM »
Let's apply some logic:
* The 44 works in a different (Windoze) machine: Conclusion, it's a good unit.

Yes the Delta 44 works fine on Windoze

* In the QS, the Delta Control Panel loads and displays but no sound.

You said you sometimes see indications of audio in the Delta display. Does that look like accurate audio or just random noise?
I don't see that you've indicated which DAW or such you're trying to use. Which is it?

Hi GaryN, thanks for your input and sharing of your experience with Delta Gear - So the indications of audio i have seen in the Delta display are definitely actual audio and not just random noise. As to the DAW - I have been using Cubase (from Diehard's instant DAW) and Recycle v2.0.

My $$ is on the ASIO, or lack of it, or incorrectness of it. Why?

* In order for the Delta to work here, you must have the Delta ASIO driver in the DAW's ASIO folder.
* You should NOT have the Sound Manager ASIO driver in there too. There will be issues because Sound Manager and whatever DAW will bump heads and even crash the computer. There's no good reason to route your DAW's output thru the Sound Manager anyway.

Ok thanks for explaining that.

I have placed the Delta ASIO driver in the DAW (Cubase) ASIO folder and Recycle ASIO folder. I will try this again and make sure that the Sound Manager drivers are not in the same folders.

So, assuming that you (hopefully) got the Delta 44 ASIO along with the Control Panel and Extension, make sure that ASIO is where it's supposed to be in the DAW folder.

When you mention the 'Control panel' above - are you just referring to the Delta Control Panel or OS9 Control Panel?

Offline DieHard

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2023, 12:28:19 PM »
From IIO...
Quote
multiple ASIO drivers installed with the same app should be unproblematic because they simply have nothing to do with each other. ASIO drivers are loaded one by one and if a driver is not selected as output driver, it is not connected to the app´s audio. ASIO drivers are also not not connected to each other in any way.

OK, so I gotta kind of have to disagree with you on this statement... yes the statement "they simply have nothing to do with each other" is 100% correct; However, like show on the mini, Mac OS 9 apps (like Cubase, Nuendo, etc) love to grab the "Soundmanager ASIO" if there is not a previously saved ASIO in the preference file.... meaning, if it the 1st time launching the App, it is a great idea to ONLY HAVE THE CORRECT ASIO driver, by itself, in the ASIO folder. 

If the host DAW crashes immediately then you cannot select and then save the correct ASIO driver, and hence no saved preference for the ASIO driver, so even though they are independent, ALWAYS manually create and " ASIO Unused" folder and put everything in there except the correct ASIO driver.  I have also seen other apps grab the first listed ASIO driver when launching and then crash, so the general rule of thumb it is best NOT to leave unused ASIO drivers in your application's main ASIO folder (even if they are unrelated).  In a perfect world, like IIO said, you simply launch the app, select the right ASIO, and every subsequent launch loads the previous one selected, but this does not always go as planned.  Lastly, when opening old projects (done with a different ASIO driver) you can avoid crashes, because the app will prompt you to switch to the new one if it is the only one present in the main ASIO folder.

From Gary...
Quote
You should NOT have the Sound Manager ASIO driver in there too. There will be issues because Sound Manager and whatever DAW will bump heads and even crash the computer. There's no good reason to route your DAW's output thru the Sound Manager anyway.

Yes, as stated, there is no good reason to route your DAW's output thru the Sound Manager anyway.  But to expand on this... there MAYBE a good reason to route the sound manager output internally into your interface. Many interfaces will let you route the OS "system sound" to the interface, so that you can here OS alerts and beeps without having to monitor your built-in mac audio out. This is very helpful, and is usually setup via the Mac OS 9 Sound control panel, one caveat, being, at times, you are relaxing an extremely loud "BEEP" can come through your audio interface, so set OS altert volume appropriately.

This is independent of the ASIO driver for the device, so, you still use the manufacturer's ASIO driver for the Host app, NOT system sound,  I am trying to clarify that these are two different things for the newbies. If you have a mixer, then route your 1/8" built-in jack to it so that you can adjust system sound easily, if not use the mentioned feature if you interface has it available.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2023, 12:48:27 PM by DieHard »

Offline ssp3

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2023, 12:34:16 PM »
.... because there is no logical explanation for the issue.

What I've experienced on several occasions is that, when moving files between modern OSes and OS9, the files sometimes lose their 'type' and 'creator' attributes.
In such case DAW would not know what to do with such ASIO file, I guess.
IIRC, Mac generally recognizes file types by their attributes, not names, like it is on Win, OSX or other nix.

But yes, it's better to follow the 'best ASIO practices' as DieHard writes in the post above.
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Offline GaryN

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2023, 11:12:49 PM »
Let's apply some logic:
* The 44 works in a different (Windoze) machine: Conclusion, it's a good unit.
Yes the Delta 44 works fine on Windoze

* In the QS, the Delta Control Panel loads and displays but no sound.

You said you sometimes see indications of audio in the Delta display. Does that look like accurate audio or just random noise?
I don't see that you've indicated which DAW or such you're trying to use. Which is it?
Hi GaryN, thanks for your input and sharing of your experience with Delta Gear - So the indications of audio i have seen in the Delta display are definitely actual audio and not just random noise. As to the DAW - I have been using Cubase (from Diehard's instant DAW) and Recycle v2.0.

My $$ is on the ASIO, or lack of it, or incorrectness of it. Why?
* In order for the Delta to work here, you must have the Delta ASIO driver in the DAW's ASIO folder.
* You should NOT have the Sound Manager ASIO driver in there too. There will be issues because Sound Manager and whatever DAW will bump heads and even crash the computer. There's no good reason to route your DAW's output thru the Sound Manager anyway.
Ok thanks for explaining that.
I have placed the Delta ASIO driver in the DAW (Cubase) ASIO folder and Recycle ASIO folder. I will try this again and make sure that the Sound Manager drivers are not in the same folders.
So, assuming that you (hopefully) got the Delta 44 ASIO along with the Control Panel and Extension, make sure that ASIO is where it's supposed to be in the DAW folder.
When you mention the 'Control panel' above - are you just referring to the Delta Control Panel or OS9 Control Panel?

I'm referring to the Delta panel. Since it IS showing the audio yet nothing is making it out of the breakout there may be a different issue.

This thread has been going 'round and 'round about multiple ASIO drivers. That can be and sometimes IS a real problem.
The farther we go however, the more I'm leaning towards the aftermarket CPU upgrade problem.

ASIO = "Audio Streaming Input Output"
The entire reason for its existence is to route audio around instead of through the multiple "layers" of hardware that would normally have to pass it thru. It is used to improve timing by keeping the CPU from having to spend time just shuttling audio bits around.

ASIO was originally written for older Windoze systems that were notorious for having horrible audio handling. It's not too much to say it was what made decent audio even possible on PC's. Because the old Mac OS had no pre-emptive multitasking, it too was lousy at handling audio so Steinberg wrote an SDK to help folks to adapt ASIO to the Mac as well. A couple of issues here:

* It was necessary for manufacturers of audio interfaces to write their own ASIO drivers. Some were better at it than others.
* An immediate problem developed in that this was around the time of OS8 and 9, which were near or at EOL while the digital interface "world" was really just getting into gear. Because of that, ASIO 1 soon became ASIO 2 leaving Mac OS9 in the dust. In fact, ALL old-Mac-compatible ASIO SDK updates ended with ASIO 2.3. So, there are multiple versions floating around, all poorly or UN-labeled and little or NO documentation.
* A big part of the problem was/is that Apple, with their usual finesse, said "Steinberg? Who needs Steinberg"? They then developed Core Audio for OSX and never looked back. Core Audio does everything ASIO does and arguably does it better on the Macs it was specifically written for.

SO…… WhereTF is he going with this? Easy: ASIO is a set of instructions for the computer being used and is tailored to that OS and hardware.
IF you change the CPU, you have to make small tweaks in the ASIO instruction set to accommodate the different characteristics of the new CPU. ASIO is all about data handling and timing so it needs to "know" what it's working with.

* My Deltas worked fine in my MDD until I installed the Sonnet CPU. Then, they stopped dead.
** I tried everything known to myself and anyone who would listen without success.
*** It was only when I got lucky and reached someone still working at Sonnet who had been there in "the old days" that the solution arrived. What was it, you say?

It was a customized ASIO driver that Sonnet had developed when they started getting complaints that people's interfaces stopped working when they installed Sonnet CPU's.

He had kept it at home and was kind enough to send it to me. Nobody else at Sonnet even had a clue about it… as I said, I got lucky.
I should mention that I didn't then and still don't remember having this issue with my old 500Mhz Sonnet in my G3 Desktop. That's partly what helped make me crazy when I had the problem in the MDD… I just never suspected the ASIO driver.
I of course made multiple copies of that damn replacement driver and stored them in different places.

**** I suspect that you just might have the same problem with your OWC CPU.

I have no idea exactly what the hiccup is. Since the objective of ASIO is to go around the CPU, you would think it shouldn't matter. However, there is a whole bunch of data handling that goes on right next to and around the CPU, and since most/all of these 3rd-party upgrades are basically the same family of IBM 7400-series chips overclocked to Warp speeds, I can imagine the ASIO routines expecting certain timings, buffering and whatever based on the chip identity and so being literally out-of-sync with the new CPU speed.

IF this is all correct, I have no good idea where to go or how to fix it. You can find current ASIO support for Windoze - there's even a site asio4all.org to customize your "new" Windoze driver, but not so much for our poor old "obsolete" Macs. If you have an original QS CPU, I would say put it back and see if everything starts working. If you don't, I'll dig out one of my old Delta 44 ASIO drivers that worked with my old Sonnet and post it for you to try. It can't hurt and maybe you'll get lucky too.

Meanwhile, I'll hope I'm completely out to lunch here, that there's a simple so-far-overlooked fix and this is all just a typing exercise…  :D

Offline DieHard

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2023, 02:28:38 PM »
Gary may indeed be right about the CPU upgrade :)

The only reason I was initially doubting this, is unlike the Sonnet, the Extreme G4 is a 7455 CPU that does not need a firmware patch.  Please post the speed/model of your extreme. 

I gave the extreme a shoutout here: http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,3882
Quote from me:
Quote
After installing countless Giga Designs, PowerLogix, and  Sonnet CPU Upgrades over the years for clients, this baby deserves an honorable mention; like all 7455 upgrades, It require no system firmware patch at all.  As Mactron has mentioned, 7447A, 7448 and 7457s are a different story.

In addition, I did run a M-Audio 9624 in a QS with a G4 Extreme 1.467 and all was good, however all info is definitely pointing your issues to the G4 Extreme.  An very easy test would be to change the dip switches to a lower CPU speed (different multiplier); I have the chart listed on my Extreme post, maybe it will make a difference; if not, like Gary said, switch to the original CPU if you have it.

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2023, 05:41:45 PM »

OK, so I gotta kind of have to disagree with you on this statement... yes the statement "they simply have nothing to do with each other" is 100% correct; However, like show on the mini, Mac OS 9 apps (like Cubase, Nuendo, etc) love to grab the "Soundmanager ASIO" if there is not a previously saved ASIO in the preference file.... meaning, if it the 1st time launching the App, it is a great idea to ONLY HAVE THE CORRECT ASIO driver, by itself, in the ASIO folder.


the content of the folder is completely irrelevant.

you can also remove all drivers and cubase will still start properly. it will correctly tell you that the chosen driver can not be used or found and switch back to soundmanager - or turns off audio features.

you guys do not understand that the installation of multiple drivers at once, so that you can change the IO device during work, is one of the three core features of ASIO.

this is why it cant be that it does not work at all, even if that is your personal experience.

Quote
If the host DAW crashes immediately


why would that happen? and it did not happen here. here we only have a nonworking delta.

Quote
then you cannot select and then save the correct ASIO driver, and hence no saved preference for the ASIO driver

why would that happen? why would it be a problem? if the prefs file has nothing selected, you can select things next time. if the interface is missing, the driver will not be selectable. if a driver is missing, you can select the interface.

that is basically what the ASIO folder is about.

Quote
it is best NOT to leave unused ASIO drivers in your application's main ASIO folder

if it is not required, dont install it, and you have one possible error source less. so far, so good!

but it is not us who decide which output devices somebody else wants to use, he can use what he wants.

and gary´s prophecy that a computer will immediately crash when soundmanager ASIO is installed is pure nonsense, which is not getting better when you try to "explain" it to me. :) (though the explanation has yet to come)


Quote
Many interfaces will let you route the OS "system sound" to the interface

soundmanger itself is also completely unreleated to the OPs problem with the delta.

and have you never had the need to run, say, cubase and sonicworx or maxmsp and peak at the same time and listen to it over the same speakers?

that is what ASIO is for: that you can use different interfaces at once.

the stoopid system sounds should be turned off then, of course. they only make the finder GUI slower anway.
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Offline ssp3

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2023, 07:10:25 PM »
My 2 cents..
There are several ASIO SoundManager drivers out there. I have two. One is from 1996, the other from 1997. On TiBook 667 SpectraFoo analyzer crashes with Error 10 with earlier one, but works fine with 1997 version, so it's worth re-checking what version you have in the ASIO folder.
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Offline DieHard

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2023, 07:22:32 PM »
Quote
the content of the folder is completely irrelevant.
Not a correct statement with the Mini G4 :(

Quote
why would that happen? and it did not happen here. here we only have a nonworking delta
Yes, I am off topic, just giving sugestions, in case it's a wrong version of the needed ASIO for the Delta

From Sargie...
Quote
Sorry... my schedule has been crazy and I am traveling... So I haven't had too much time to try things.

However:

I followed DieHards advice and Cubase is now running!

I am not an expert with Cubase... but is there anything you'd like me to test to see how well this interface performs with the Mini from a DAW perspective?

I've got VST's playing via Midi and it seems to work just fine so far.

Best,

Sarge

Dear IIO,

I am simply trying to give the newbies with OS9 and ASIO some guidelines from real world experiences; in the scenario above (with the mini), the "moving the unused ASIO drivers" worked because the stock install of CuBase will attempt to load the soundmanager ASIO and crash without letting the user switch it to the correct one.  You are a great programmer (I love black and white) and you are right that 90% of the time it's a non-issue since the Charlie crew only had to deal with units made for OS9 and the built-in mac audio will normally allow CuBase to load and then you can switch the ASIO to your audio interface.

In addition, I have had Host apps crash that do not like a certain version of the ASIO driver (the M-Audio 2496 gives 3 different ASIO drivers... V1, V2, and Metro and you have to guess which one your Host likes). So I also use this trick to test each ASIO driver separately to find the best ASIO for each app. Again, I am not advocating deleting anything, so I don't get the adverse reaction to just have the tested good ones in the ASIO folder and save all the others elsewhere.

Sarge might have given up, if I did not give him that troubleshooting approach... just saying :)

Quote
if it is not required, dont install it, and you have one possible error source less. so far, so good!
Again, just guidelines since the ASIO driver might have to be "manually" dragged anyway and may have more that 1 version.
You are assuming the user knows which one is required... remember each app has it's own ASIO folder, that is NOT shared, you may have to copy the thing to 4 or 5 or more folders and use a different version depending on the host app.  Just trying to give a little depth to those who don't have your background and may not know how it works in OS9.

Quote
but it is not us who decide which output devices somebody else wants to use, he can use what he wants.
I am the ASIO God, they will use only what I tell them.... only kidding :)
« Last Edit: September 11, 2023, 07:37:22 PM by DieHard »

Offline GaryN

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2023, 10:25:14 PM »
I sense some frustration here, so I'll just respond to a few small comments rather than write another chapter.

you guys do not understand that the installation of multiple drivers at once, so that you can change the IO device during work, is one of the three core features of ASIO.
I think we understand it quite well, thank you. I even understand that you may have a number of different interfaces connected simultaneously either thru USB or with a belly full of PCI cards, personally, I don't. I have 12 channels of Delta I/O and that's 2 PCI cards right there which is clearly enough for me. I very seldom need or use more than the 8 in the Delta 1010. I have gone to 11 or 12 IN recording a group but mama don't like that in da house, that's just me and I digress.
this is why it cant be that it does not work at all, even if that is your personal experience.
I was going to compose a witty response to this non-sequitur , on the order of "Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?" but I changed my mind. Really. I did. Even if you're seeing and reading this, I didn't write it. It simply can't be.
and gary´s prophecy that a computer will immediately crash when soundmanager ASIO is installed is pure nonsense, which is not getting better when you try to "explain" it to me. :) (though the explanation has yet to come)
I am pretty sure I didn't say that. I did say that there can be situations where the Sound Manager ASIO will bump heads with a 3rd party one under some circumstances and that can, as with so many other Old-Mac OS conflicts, cause a hang that cannot be cured with less than a forced restart, the Command-Period move being ineffective.
soundmanger itself is also completely unreleated to the OPs problem with the delta.
That's actually almost certainly true.
and have you never had the need to run, say, cubase and sonicworx or maxmsp and peak at the same time and listen to it over the same speakers?
that is what ASIO is for: that you can use different interfaces at once.
Now I'm totally confused. I load and have open multiple apps like SVP and Sonicworx and Peak regularly. I can't remember needing to run them at the same time (simultaneously?) thru the same speakers, although I'm sure that if my Mac would actually enable me to do that, the result would be quite unusual for sure. I do switch back and forth at times from DAW to editor where SVP has the Delta 1010 and Peak has the Delta 44 OR Sound Manager. BUT, I don't do that often. I have a large console with lots of inputs and only the Deltas inside my Mac… no stack of external interfaces. But hey, everybody's workflow is different. It may be convenient for you that you "can use different interfaces at once" but that's not "what ASIO is for". ASIO exists to make high-quality audio handling possible by shortening the data path it has to unnecessarily travel and free up those clock cycles to do other things which vastly improves the overall timing - especially on PC's but it really benefits old Macs as well. I'm pretty sure you already know that and we're just having minor misunderstandings here.

I should tell you that ever since getting the modified-for-Sonnet Delta ASIO driver, they have happily lived in the ASIO folders snuggled up to the Sound Manager drivers without issue, just as they should. I must also insist however, that was NOT the case with the original M-Audio ones.
ssp3 also testifies to the ASIO oddities that are possible:
My 2 cents..
There are several ASIO SoundManager drivers out there. I have two. One is from 1996, the other from 1997. On TiBook 667 SpectraFoo analyzer crashes with Error 10 with earlier one, but works fine with 1997 version, so it's worth re-checking what version you have in the ASIO folder.
That's why (if you read my last post, I'm leaning away from ASIO conflicts as the cause of all this and toward the "ASIO driver doesn't like the CPU upgrade" possibility. DieHard notes the 7455 doesn't "need" a firmware patch but theoretically, neither should my Sonnet 7450's.

And yet……

Offline blaylok

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2023, 02:03:51 AM »
Hi everyone, thank you all for your advice, sharing of experience and suggestions thus far, it is much appreciated.

Ok, so first I tried as Diehard suggested and knocked the CPU Accelerator back to the stock speed (867GHz) that my Quicksilver came with before I added the OWC Mercury Extreme G4 1.4ghz upgrade card.

Unfortunately I had the same result - activity in the Delta panel vu meter while audio is being played (loaded groove agent vst in Cubase - hit play on default patch) but no sound at the Delta 44 breakout box outputs 1 + 2, switch to outputs 3 + 4 same result - No sound.

To note, before booting Cubase I removed all ASIO drivers in the Cubase ASIO folder and made sure that the Delta 44  ASIO driver was the only one in there.

After a little bit of fiddling around with settings in the Delta panel to try and obtain sound at the breakout box outputs the quicksilver goes into a freeze response (unable to move mouse/cursor and the only way out is a hard reset  :(

Ok, so after that I decided to try as Gary suggested and revert the CPU back to the stock 867GHz unit.

Did that, fired the quicksilver back up..(Cubase loaded same as above - groove agent vst)...but unfortunately the same result - initially no sound at either of the outputs whichever I select in the Delta panel - then after some 'fiddling' with settings both in Cubase and the Delta panel - the quicksilver goes into a freeze response that can only be resolved by a hard reset.

Not really sure where to go next

Thanks again everyone

Kind regards,

blaylok

Offline blaylok

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2023, 02:37:35 AM »
My Delta 44 is a revision B from 1999

Offline blaylok

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2023, 03:58:35 AM »
My Mercury Extreme G4

Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2023, 04:18:47 AM »
Maybe it is time to check how much memory wastes cubase and try a little less..............

Also I would try to use under a Gigabyte of RAM phisical memory, in case it is an app that loves less that 1 gig or 768Mb.

Try other DAWs also. Maybe Cubase+Delta44 is a bad combo.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2023, 04:30:03 AM by Protools5LEGuy »
Looking for MacOS 9.2.4

Offline DieHard

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2023, 09:20:09 AM »
I really should have suggested this earlier, but run the diagnostics (extended mode), this will test RAM and logic board...

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,818.0.html

Burn it to a CD, boot to it, and test

Offline blaylok

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2023, 08:29:02 PM »
New day, new Mac protocol to learn...

Enjoying the process tho :-)

Ok thank you Diehard for the next step I need to take.

So I downloaded the Apple Hardware Test from the link provided and have burned it to a CD.

Unfortunately whenever I try to boot to it (by holding down C while booting the quicksilver) it just boots back to my normal desktop.

When I examine the contents of the CD the only file in there is Apple Hardware Test Read Me file and nothing else. Am I missing the actual Hardware Test program/file or something?

I don't have an Original Apple keyboard either (I am using a Dell/Windows keyboard that allows me to plug the mouse into the keyboard itself - the Apple Hardware Test Read Me file stated that a known issue was that the mouse could not be directly connected to the usb port of the g4 for it to be used) Could using a non-genuine Apple keyboard also be the issue with not booting into the Apple Hardware Test?

Thanks again everyone,

blaylok

Offline GaryN

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2023, 10:03:18 PM »
AHT is indeed in the file. All icons are invisible (why? Who knows?)

When you burn the CD, you should have burned it as a data CD-ROM. If you didn't, try again.

If still no boot, boot the computer to the internal OS9 then open the Startup Disk Control Panel and see if it is displayed as a valid boot option.
If it is, select it and restart.

You must run it with the Apple CPU. It's 99% it will indicate a fail with the Mercury or not run at all.
Not sure about the mouse. It will likely indicate a bad mouse if not plugged in directly but that's no big deal.

Offline blaylok

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2023, 10:54:17 PM »
Ok, thanks Gary 👍

I will burn the CD again as a data CD as you advised

I am back on the stock CPU (867GHZ) until I get this all sorted.

Thanks again,

blaylok

Offline DieHard

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2023, 08:17:52 PM »
After receiving a PM, and answering it, I am also going to post this publicly.  In addition, and I will try to also attach this info to any downloads where I forgot to mention this very important fact

Any downloaded files with the ".bin" extension are totally useless (even toast images) until the encoding (.bin) is removed with stuffit expander.

After the download of any "BIN" you must either right click the file and choose from the Stuffit expand help Help Menu "remove encoding" or simply drag it onto stuffit expander and it will remove encoding and restore the file to a usable state (such as a toast/ISO, or compressed .sit)

Toast does NOT understand BIN, either does any other app, you must remove encoding, this was done so toast files (any other files) will retain their icon after encoding is removed

I am so so sorry to have not realized that this was unclear :(

For Reference: (As explained elsewhere):
Quote
Why are Mac OS 9 downloads so difficult ?

Most of our files have been encoded into MacBinary format (.bin) so that the data and the resource fork of the file will not be damaged when storing the Macintosh file on a non-Macintosh system. Classic Mac OS files are different in structure; other file systems (Windows) use file extensions to associate files with the program/application that created them.  For example, on PC systems, files with the ".DOC" extension, when clicked will launch MicroSoft Word as the associated program.  Classic Mac OS files have a "Resource" fork that stores the files CREATOR info and TYPE. This enables the Classic Mac OS to know the program/application that will utilize the file and the type of file that it is in case that program can open multiple file types.

In the case where the uploaded/downloaded file is a stuffit archive... then encoding (.bin) is not needed if the user knows to either drag it on top of StuffIt expander or open StuffIt and uncompress it manually... so it is basically re-dun dent since the stuffit archive itself will protect all of the contained files resource and data forks, but I am encoding everyfile (including SITs) for a convention/standard.... if the file being downloaded is an installable application file then the encoding (.bin) will ensure that the resource fork is not striped off in the upload/download process and this is where the encoding becomes more critical so that the file can retain it's original icon after the "bin" is removed

As they say in Italian... capische ?

Offline smilesdavis

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2023, 11:43:56 PM »
I got a Sonnet 1.8 ghz — where can i get this sonnet asio driver please?
Looking for: Steinberg Cubase MAC Standard/Score v1-5 & Cubase Audio v1, Cubase Audio v2 for, Cubase Audio v3 for DAE/TDM => complete or in parts

Offline DieHard

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2023, 09:47:27 AM »
I got a Sonnet 1.8 ghz — where can i get this sonnet asio driver please?

Unfortunately, there is probably no "universal" Sonnet ASIO driver or patch...
Quote
I should tell you that ever since getting the modified-for-Sonnet Delta ASIO driver they have happily lived in the ASIO folders snuggled up to the Sound Manager drivers without issue,

You probably have to pray that for your specific audio card that Sonnet or a 3rd party (Audio card manufacturer) created a modified ASIO driver that works when the Sonnet CPU upgrade is installed; this may be extremely hard to track down... if one even exists for your hardware.

Offline chrisNova777

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2023, 10:25:41 AM »
i have lots and lots of delta cards over here
and many many different versions of the drivers

what driver + asio version is being used?????
was that even answered in the thread yet?

Offline DieHard

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2023, 12:36:43 PM »
The question came after Gary mentioned he tracked down a custom ASIO driver for his M-audio interface that corrected issues that started after a Sonnet CPU upgrade.  He got the right tech that remembered that a modified driver was created to fix issues the CPU upgrade caused in systems with that particular card.  If Sonnet themselves modified these ASIO drivers, or did it in conjunction with M-Audio is still a mystery, also if they had issues with other manufacturers is also a mystery; I am guessing it was not "common knowledge" and only given to those who complained.

I am sure if others had problems they didn't connect the dots or even suspect the CPU upgrade compatibility issues with their specific ASIO driver... so others probably bought new hardware that did not have any issues and assumed their interface went bad... the usual fucking headache... lol

Offline GaryN

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2023, 01:44:39 PM »
I got a Sonnet 1.8 ghz — where can i get this sonnet asio driver please?

Here's the one I got from Sonnet that finally worked for me.

NOTE: I have a Delta 1010 and the Encore MDX Dual 1.8 in an MDD. I have no idea if it will work with say, a Crescendo in a QS or such.
This driver is labeled "Delta 1010" but it does work with my 44 as well.
YMMV.

Offline GaryN

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2023, 01:52:28 PM »
i have lots and lots of delta cards over here
and many many different versions of the drivers

what driver + asio version is being used?????
was that even answered in the thread yet?
I believe the ASIO is the one (probably 1.0) that shipped with the Delta 44. The 44 works properly in a Windoze box. The suspicion was that it was incompatible with the OWC Mercury CPU upgrade in the OP's QS 867 but was found to still fail after reverting to the original QS CPU.

We are now up to wondering about a different (motherboard?) culprit…

Offline ssp3

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2023, 06:48:27 PM »
If Sonnet themselves modified these ASIO drivers, or did it in conjunction with M-Audio is still a mystery.
One should compare the original and Sonnet versions in ResCompare and see whether similar changes can be applied to other M-Audio drivers.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Offline GaryN

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2023, 09:35:40 PM »
One should compare the original and Sonnet versions in ResCompare and see whether similar changes can be applied to other M-Audio drivers.
Well I'll be…… Thank you ssp3 !  (Betcha never thought you'd hear me say that…)

I never knew ResCompare even existed until today. So, I was now motivated to dissect the mystery Sonnet ASIO and guess what I found?

Not a damn thing. It is the M-Audio / MIDIMan "Delta 1010v3" driver. Nothing more, nothing less.
I can only surmise that the guy at Sonnet who sent it to me just decided to take credit for it AND v1 and v2 did not work with the Sonnet and they corrected that in v3. So, he was telling more or less telling me the truth. I apparently didn't have the "v3" version and whatever I DID have worked fine with both the original 2x1.25 and also 2x1.42 apple CPU's I had previously but wouldn't tolerate the 2x1.8 Sonnet.
Maddeningly that might be only because the Sonnet uses 7450 CPU's.

So, it's just apparently just another standard update madness thing. It's just sad that these and so many other ASIO drivers are basically undocumented so you just have to get a bunch and keep throwing them against the wall until one sticks. The drivers are available on M-Audio's website but are cross-labeled between OS9 and OSX and have a different version labeling format AND there are variations for single vs. multi-card support and and and……

I'm running low on Adderall so I'm not going to try to pick thru it all comparing v2 with v3 right now. Or later, probably.

Has anybody ever seen an interface named the "Flying Cow"? It's in the M-Audio list.


Offline ssp3

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2023, 09:44:06 PM »
Has anybody ever seen an interface named the "Flying Cow"? It's in the M-Audio list.

I have, even in person. I can't remember whether I looked under the hood or not, though. It's nothing special - standalone A/D and D/A unit based on the same budget converter ICs you can find on Audiomedia III card.
Remember, M-Audio was once called Midiman.

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/midiman-flying-cow

Pics pulled from the web.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2023, 09:56:07 PM by ssp3 »
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Offline blaylok

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2023, 07:07:32 PM »
Still actually struggling to get the quicksilver 867 to boot from the Apple Hardware Test CD so that I can test to see if there are other issues with the machine that are preventing the Delta 44 from producing sound. It just won't boot from the CD whatever I try (pressing c start-up, trying to select it in start-up disk, pressing alt on start-up etc).

Diehard mentioned another hardware test that doesn't need to be burned to a CD and booted from, does anyone else know of it and could point me in the direction of it please?
Thank you

regards,

blaylok

Offline ssp3

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2023, 09:57:42 PM »
Is your CD/DVD drive working as it should?
Can you boot your Mac from external drive?
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Offline GaryN

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #41 on: September 17, 2023, 10:11:26 PM »
On the M-Audio support page, the very last ASIO driver for the 44 is labeled:

M-Audio Delta 3_1_0 (1011a)

Is that the one you have? If not, I've attached it here. Try it. Make sure to burn some incense first…

Offline blaylok

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #42 on: September 17, 2023, 10:20:21 PM »
Hi Gary,

Thanks for posting both those M audio Delta driver's, I will give them both a try and see how I go.

Offline blaylok

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #43 on: September 17, 2023, 10:27:33 PM »
Hi ssp3,

I am able to boot from a usb stick, I haven't tried booting from an external drive.

The CD/DVD (Pioneer) appears to be working OK i am able to burn cd's and then access and read from them on the Mac.

Offline ssp3

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #44 on: September 17, 2023, 10:58:11 PM »
I am able to boot from a usb stick, I haven't tried booting from an external drive.

Try the method I described here with ASD/AHT images:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,6742.msg51354.html
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Offline blaylok

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #45 on: September 18, 2023, 02:39:05 AM »
 Just tried the method ssp3, unfortunately won't boot Apple Hardware Test that way either or let me select it as a boot option in start-up disk.

I used a 40gb ide/ata drive formatted it to Apple hda extended, then followed your instructions regarding booted under Osx. I was able to write Apple Hardware Test to the drive without issues. (Also used a generic usb to sata/ide adapter)

I tried booting it while still plugged into the usb adapter and then plugged into the Mac on the ata bus. Same result both times. Unplugged all but the said 40gb on the ata bus and boot gives OS9 folder/question mark.

Offline blaylok

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #46 on: September 18, 2023, 02:40:57 AM »
Apple hfs extended not hda sorry

Offline ssp3

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #47 on: September 18, 2023, 04:25:07 AM »
Have you tried removing battery, resetting CUDA switch, installing battery? Is battery OK? 3,6 Volts?

Try Mac Test Pro:
https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/apple-mactest-pro

Try either 'All in one' or any of the individual CD images.
https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/apple-hardware-test-powermac-g4

A bit of info:
https://boards.rossmanngroup.com/threads/apple-asd-reference-list.35818/
Quote
Power Mac G4 (1999 Late AGP Graphics) MTP G4 (2002)
Power Mac G4 (1999 Mid PCI Graphics) MTP G4 (Juli 2000)
Power Mac G4 (2000 Mid Cube) MTP G4 (2002)
Power Mac G4 (2000 Mid Gigabit Ethernet) MTP G4 (2002)
Power Mac G4 (2001 Early Digital Audio) MTP G4 (2002)
Power Mac G4 (2001 Mid QuickSilver) MTP G4 (2002)
Power Mac G4 (2002 Early QuickSilver) MTP G4 (2002)
Power Mac G4 (2002 Mid Mirrored Drive Doors) 2.1.5
Power Mac G4 (2002 Mid Quicksilver ED) 2.1.5
Power Mac G4 (2003 Early FW 800) 2.1.5
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Offline blaylok

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #48 on: September 18, 2023, 05:00:19 AM »
You beat me to it ssp3....

I just tried the AIO

https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/apple-hardware-test-powermac-g4

and....Success!  Finally got the Apple Hardware Test Running

I am currently testing now I will report back as to the results.

Thanks ssp3 (and others) for your help

The battery is actually DOA - it is on the replacement asap list - could this be my Apple Hardware Test won't run off cdrom issue?

Could this also be my no sound on the Delta 44 issue as well? (Surely not)

Offline blaylok

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #49 on: September 18, 2023, 05:57:08 AM »
Apple Hardware Test Power Mac Version 2.2.5

Extended Test Results

Airport                    No device found
Logic Board.          Passed
Mass Storage.       Passed
Memory.                 Passed
Modem.                  Device found
Video RAM.            Passed

The Extended Test has been completed and no hardware problems have been detected.

So it would seem that all is good with the Hardware in my Quicksilver 867 Mhz

Tomorrow I will remove all the Installed thus far M Audio Delta stuff (driver's, delta panel etc.) and start from scratch again with the driver's Gary posted above.


Offline ssp3

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #50 on: September 18, 2023, 06:07:03 AM »
Get a fresh battery. Some Macs have strange dependency on it.
IIRC, my Digital Audio G4, with all PCI slots stuffed (FDDI optic network card, Adaptec U2W SCSI and 2x Sonic DAW cards) produced black screen and refused to boot with dead battery.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #51 on: September 18, 2023, 12:34:58 PM »
My G3 B&W acts weird/cannot boot without the battery.
I couldnt set a system without certified (expensive) Mac Ram. 66% of PC RAM I had didntt worked.

Once I had those 2 variables out, and a sonnet tempo 66 I could enjoy the Mac experience o. The blue G3.

A much better experience (Or being teached I guess) was the G4 Digital Audio


Looking for MacOS 9.2.4

Offline blaylok

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #52 on: September 20, 2023, 02:33:26 AM »
Another unsuccessful attempt at getting sound out of the Delta 44 today, this time I tried with the two different driver's that Gary posted just above - unfortunately same result as before - I can see audio activity in the Delta control panel but still no actual sound at the outputs.

I have a new battery on order it due to arrive on Monday I will give it another try with a fresh battery

Offline blaylok

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Re: Unsuccessful attempts to setup M Audio Delta 44 in OS9
« Reply #53 on: October 14, 2023, 10:38:50 PM »
Update:

Apologies for the delay in posting back here...

So, I got a new PRAM battery installed it then started from scratch with the Delta 44 installation - unfortunately same result, i.e. no sound at the outputs

I gave up for a little bit then managed to find myself a second-hand Edirol UA-20 and the OS9 drivers from Macintosh garden.....

Success!!!  - sound at the outputs, plus midi in & out

Finally I have an ASIO sound device working on my Quicksilver!  :)

- not sure why the Delta 44 never worked for me on the Quicksilver when the model has worked fine for others - the Delta 44 can go back to one of my Windows boxes.

Anyway, a big thank you to all here for the time, effort (and typing), you all put into helping me troubleshoot my issue.

Thanks heaps guys  :)

best regards,

blaylok

 


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