Down the rabbit hole?

[G40]

I've started playing with SVP 4.5.1 on my G4 under OS 9.2.2 and it's got me intrigued. I like what I've seen but I can also see there's going to be a bit of a learning curve... At this stage I'm wondering whether it's going to be worthwhile for me to learn it properly. I'd welcome thoughts/opinions, although what I'm about to write is a bit of a meander around my thoughts which probably doesn't explain what I'm after too clearly. Basically I want to dedicate some time to learning a MIDI sequencing package on OS9 and I want to decide which one...

Some context. I've been a bit of a dabbler in making weird Warp records-esque electronic music since the late 90s, but I get distracted easily and don't finish much. I started out MIDI sequencing with Cakewalk on a PC, but have also spent time with older (pre-VST versions) of Cubase on Ataris, Macs, and PCs. In most cases I've found Cubase a faster and more musical way to build compositions, although Cakewalk seemed easier to integrate with MIDI kit and set up instrument/patch definitions. I usually felt that Cubase had better timing, especially in non-PC versions. I also felt that while neither was perfect, perhaps Cakewalk had the edge for manipulating CC data. In both cases I've always sought more precision in this area.

I enjoy working with varied time signatures and Cubase seemed to allow me to do this easily.

Weirdly I never spent much time in Cubase's drum edit mode - I've usually tended to just use the normal note edit mode - probably because I didn't get round to setting up my instruments properly in Cubase and I was already used to working with percussion in Cakewalk's piano roll...

I've tried Ableton Live, Reason etc, but didn't mesh with either. I got comfortable with Pro Tools for an audio-only project a few years ago but haven't used it in a while - Reaper (on a PC) would be my go-to for audio recording/mixing these days. I've also played with Octamed on an Amiga, which I enjoy. I don't get on so well with modern fully fledged audio+midi DAWs as I find them too vast and confused. I'm happier in an environment where sequencing is the primary mode of operation.

I've recently been using Cubase 2.8 and Audio XT under Windows 98, but have come around to OS9 recently and been playing with VST 5.1. I'm quite comfortable doing basic sequencing with this as the MIDI side is very similar to the older versions I've used before, but there's still a learning curve if I want to use it properly. I've not yet worked out how best to integrate it with my MIDI gear and set up instrument/patch definitions. I appreciate the option to work with VST instruments, but my intention is to work primarily with hardware...

I've got a bunch of MIDI gear (synths and samplers) but I'd particularly like to have access to (ready made?) instrument definitions and an editor for my JV-1080 and also an editor for my Yamaha DX-11. I've found one for Windows that works well... haven't had any luck getting sound diver to work though..

I'd like to be able to record multitrack audio - mainly for "printing" the output of MIDI synths, especially analogue ones without preset memories, but also for later export and mixing (perhaps out of the box using a multiple output soundcard). I wonder if the audio side of SVP is up to this?

I'm going to stop rambling now, my iPad battery is about to run out...

[Protools5LEGuy]

SVP is well know by GaryN, our resident SVP expert.

Protools has more followers, and Cubase. Logic some, and Ableton Live is loved too. Reason and Rebirth too.

We have also the counterpart of Cakewalk for Mac, called Metro, but no users AFAIK.

Cakewalk Metro Version 5 (Created by Sagan) http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,1777.0.html

[Protools5LEGuy]

I would start with a complete Instant DAW restore for a good VST Cubase instrument/plug set, and would also test:

Protools Free

Metro

Ableton

Logic 4.x

Aside Studio Vision

[Protools5LEGuy]

I enjoy working with varied time signatures and Cubase seemed to allow me to do this easily.

Weirdly I never spent much time in Cubase's drum edit mode - I've usually tended to just use the normal note edit mode - probably because I didn't get round to setting up my instruments properly in Cubase and I was already used to working with percussion in Cakewalk's piano roll...

I believe you can have Cubase + Metro synced and use both apps, maybe using 2 sound cards.

You could also use 2 machines, one with cubase + one with Metro.

[G40]

Thanks guys, perhaps I wasn’t clear, mainly looking for opinions on the merits and limitations of SVP (hence posting in that section) for my needs compared to those sequencers I have more experience of, for me at this stage the choice is between further exploring Cubase VST 5.1 versus jumping in to SVP (perhaps using Galaxy to control my synths).

I think for now I am done with Cakewalk/Sonar (on balance I prefer Cubase) but if I want to use it again it will be on a familiar PC version.

[GaryN]

Sorry, this took a while…

I'd like to be able to record multitrack audio - mainly for "printing" the output of MIDI synths, especially analogue ones without preset memories, but also for later export and mixing (perhaps out of the box using a multiple output soundcard). I wonder if the audio side of SVP is up to this?

I have quoted just this paragraph because it seems to be the only real question you've asked. The answer is yes. Absolutely yes.

Then there's……

I've started playing with SVP 4.5.1 on my G4 under OS 9.2.2 and it's got me intrigued. I like what I've seen but I can also see there's going to be a bit of a learning curve... At this stage I'm wondering whether it's going to be worthwhile for me to learn it properly. I'd welcome thoughts/opinions, although what I'm about to write is a bit of a meander around my thoughts which probably doesn't explain what I'm after too clearly. Basically I want to dedicate some time to learning a MIDI sequencing package on OS9 and I want to decide which one...

For what you have "ramblingly" (Yes, I know that's not a real word) described, SVP combined with Galaxy+Editors will do everything you want and will do it very well. So well in fact, that if you actually travel the learning curve you'll find that much of that app was far ahead of the development curve. There are innovations and features in SVP that somehow still get re-discovered and introduced as new in DAW apps today. Galaxy is outstanding in a rig with a lot of external MIDI hardware and OMS will integrate it perfectly with SVP so that the two run side by side. You also will need a Studio 4 or 5 MIDI interface - preferably a 5 if you have lots of hardware. Also, like any DAW, the quantity and quality of audio is directly related to the audio interface / ADC. (Duh…). I personally like M-Audio Delta stuff. I have a 1010 and a 44 for 12 i/o's that normally run at 24/48. Although they will do 24/96 all day long, manipulating / editing those ever-larger files in OS9 becomes tedious for what is an inaudible improvement in electronic instruments and unless/until one has a seriously 5-figure mic locker. I do mixdown to 96k however.

What SVP won't do is deal with VSTi's. Development was stopped when Gibson acquired Opcode just before virtual instruments came into being. There are a number of ways around that hiccup when/if necessary but if you like your MIDI in real hardware modules (like me) that won't be an issue at all.

My only other observation based on the info you've provided is: "I get distracted easily and don't finish much." You have played with a LOT of software and most if not all of the things you found lacking (timing, CC control, patch definitions, et al) are NOT lacking in SVP/Galaxy.
What you DO need for audio is a good G4 QS or MDD in the Ghz-plus range.

Anyway, if you seriously want to get deep down into an OS9 DAW, I honestly think there's no better choice than SVP. With the right hardware and a good understanding of the system combined with the huge number of (free) VST's floating around, there's almost nothing it won't do.
* I run 10.5.8 and 9.2.2 on a dual-boot MDD. I set it up that way back when Leopard was the big kid in town. I figure I would keep Logic and some later/newer software available there to be able to bounce a track(s) over to do some edit or(?) and return to OS9 in a best-of-both-worlds kinda thing. Funny thing is, I discovered that for MY workflow at least, I almost never needed to until the very end when I would use Roxio Jam - which was OSX-only - to master a CD. I also kept Adobe CS there for graphics. It was also my preferred system for all things internet. Well, I no longer use it for either of those things but I still use SVP and Galaxy in OS9 because they still work and work well and because I learned them and developed a workflow I'm comfortable with, They became what they should be: Tools to make music that just work so you can think about music and not about how to force your DAW to do something it won't. Constantly switching hats back and forth between musician and engineer is tedious, distracting and counter-productive. It's a necessary evil for home-cooking of course, operating the system is one thing… repeatedly having to stop and figure out why your shit won't do what you want or (worse) having to fix stuff, will kill your creativity and incentive as you just spin your wheels.

[G40]

GaryN, brilliant post, that's exactly what I wanted to hear, so I hope you're right! Thanks for taking the time to digest my ramblings. I guess it's time to start reading the manual.

I can live without VSTis, in fact in a way I'd prefer to close that door for good - sometimes limitations are helpful and as a rule I prefer to work with hardware.

Only thing that surprises me is the need for a high end G4, given that this is older software. I'd assumed that given its era it would run well enough on a G3, but perhaps it was stretching what was possible at the time on the hardware of the day? I haven't pushed it far yet but it seems to run pretty well on my G4 DA. I'm on the lookout for a faster machine locally but equally had considered running it on my blue and white G3.

I have a couple of options for audio (and 16 channels of MIDI) in the form of an RME multiface and an Echo Gina. Was wondering about a MIDI interface offering more ports. I have an original MOTU MTP here, I bought it to use with a PC via parallel but didn't manage to get it working. It also has a serial connection for mac. Are the Opcode ones you mention serial? Do you run with a PCI serial card and if so what is recommended? I like the idea of avoiding USB MIDI, but equally would be happy to avoid unnecessary complication... serial midi worked well for me when I had a Mac LC and Cubase years ago... USB works OK but has never felt quite as tight.

[GaryN]

The 2nd round is always for clarification………

I'm going to take these in order
"Start reading the manual"
BIG endeavor. There are TWO. The MIDI manual and the Audio manual. They are extremely detailed and more difficult to comprehend without the app open in front of you. Get through them though, and you'll be amazed how freaking smart those guys were/are.

"Only thing that surprises me is the need for a high end G4"
* The MIDI sequencing will run just fine on any G4 and for that matter, on most G3's and even some 68k's. The desire for a faster G4 comes into play when you want more audio. Most of the heavy lifting of multichannel audio is handled by the interface / ADA (naturally…that's what makes ProTools work - all that extra hardware) BUT the file handling, ease of use, access times, processing times (say, normalizing a file level, truncating , merging etc.) is vastly improved on later Macs both because of the higher proc speeds but also the faster ATA buses.
** That is also a factor when using other OS9 audio editing like Peak, Amadeus etc. apps.
*** Plus, you simply can never have too many PCI slots.
**** Later, faster graphics cards are happier running larger and/or multiple monitors. That's important to me at least… I always seem to want a little more screen real estate to keep windows open and easily accessible - especially when the mixing console and stuff gobbles up an entire screen.
***** If you DO end up wanting to use OSX occasionally and so want a dual-boot, you really want as new a G4 as you can get. And before you ask:
1. Yes it's true that very few OS9 apps utilize dual-procs and SVP is one that doesn't, ALL OSX apps do.
2. Yes it's true that MDD's are inherently noisier than most other OS9-capable machines. That's a solvable problem though with newer fans.
3. Yes it's true that QS's and MDD's have no serial ports and so you must use a USB-to-serial adapter of some kind. I've been doing that for years both with a Keyspan USA28X dongle excellent) and later with a Keyspan 4-port PCI card (the best but scarce)
4. Yes it's true that (and I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this) neither your RME or the Gina will play nice with a Mac. They are PC-only - there were never any drivers written for Mac ASIO audio. Yes that sucks - more people that you can count have tried to get a Gina to work with a Mac without success. BUT
5. Yes it's true that the MOTU will work. You can configure both SVP and Galaxy to use FreeMIDI instead of OMS. It will work until and if you get to where you really wish you had an Opcode Studio 5LX - and trust me, that day will come when you want at least one and possibly more of those. When it does, changing over to OMS will be simple.

"…serial midi worked well for me when I had a Mac LC and Cubase years ago... USB works OK but has never felt quite as tight."
I hear people say this all the time. Inevitably, they are - just as you are - comparing entirely different systems and the Mac serial is usually from back when they had a simple computer, sequencer and one or two keyboards. There are definitely interfaces that do a shitty job of preserving timing too, and most of those are USB so refer to #5 above. I can't remember anybody complaining about timing using a Studio 4 or 5 interface with a USB adapter. You have to go back earlier than even your B&W to get built-in serial ports. The sweet spot is a small era of QS and MDD machines fast enough for digital audio yet still OS 9-capable.

There's always been an ongoing war between Apple and the rest of the PC world. Many if not most things were always incompatible across both platforms - some deliberately so. Some of that was mitigated when Apple was forced to resort to Intel procs but not all and it will almost certainly return with a vengeance now that Apple is building their own procs.

Gotta go……

[refinery]

It is not true that RME cards are PC-only. Several legacy products have OS9 drivers along with ASIO plugins

https://archiv.rme-audio.de/en/downloads_driver_archive.php#3

[GaryN]

It is not true that RME cards are PC-only. Several legacy products have OS9 drivers along with ASIO plugins

My bad. The RME stuff other than the Fireface group. are VERY scarce in the US. In fact, I've never seen a Multiface or Digiface DSP or whatever other than in pictures. Worse yet, for example, there are sellers on ebay selling the interface without either the PCI card or the even scarcer Cardbus! I suspect that's because they assume that a box named "Fireface" with a host connector on the back that's identical to a Firewire connector simply plugs straight in. D-oh! Those clever Germans!
I did have a long interchange once with a guy who tried to get one to work on a Macbook without success… Cardbus slot issues.
So, maybe the EU is just a better universe to use one… it's certainly worth a try when you already own one.

* I looked at the RME Old MacOS drivers and there are 2 or 3, more or less… one for the Hammerfall and two for the Hammerfall DSP series, which also may require a firmware update as well.
I don't know where or IF the Multiface falls in that lineup and I DO know that ASIO 2.0 drivers are notorious for NOT working properly with SVP…… another one of the endless little things that normally get taken care of with decimal-point revs…… when the companies are still in business…… without having been bought and sold a half-dozen times…… so that they can't or won't even talk about "legacy" products……

The Echo Gina however… unh-unh

[G40]

It is not true that RME cards are PC-only. Several legacy products have OS9 drivers along with ASIO plugins

My bad. The RME stuff other than the Fireface group. are VERY scarce in the US. In fact, I've never seen a Multiface or Digiface DSP or whatever other than in pictures. Worse yet, for example, there are sellers on ebay selling the interface without either the PCI card or the even scarcer Cardbus! I suspect that's because they assume that a box named "Fireface" with a host connector on the back that's identical to a Firewire connector simply plugs straight in. D-oh! Those clever Germans!
I did have a long interchange once with a guy who tried to get one to work on a Macbook without success… Cardbus slot issues.
So, maybe the EU is just a better universe to use one… it's certainly worth a try when you already own one.

* I looked at the RME Old MacOS drivers and there are 2 or 3, more or less… one for the Hammerfall and two for the Hammerfall DSP series, which also may require a firmware update as well.
I don't know where or IF the Multiface falls in that lineup and I DO know that ASIO 2.0 drivers are notorious for NOT working properly with SVP…… another one of the endless little things that normally get taken care of with decimal-point revs…… when the companies are still in business…… without having been bought and sold a half-dozen times…… so that they can't or won't even talk about "legacy" products……

The Echo Gina however… unh-unh

My mistake, the Echo is a Layla (earlier 20 bit version). Maybe there's hope - drivers seem to be available for OS9. I haven't tried the RME ASIO drivers yet with SVP but it worked using Cubase and the MIDI side seems to play nice with OMS. I did also try an Edirol UA-20 USB interface, which works OK with SVP, supporting both OMS and ASIO 1.0. I could do with more I/O though.

[ssp3]

D-oh! Those clever Germans!

And what about those clever 'Muricans? 
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/motu-2408

MOTU's own connection system based on Firewire 1394 hardware, but optimised for audio performance.

Ignorance is bliss, right?

[smilesdavis]

Rme digi96 with an M chip
Rme hammerfall
Rme hammerfall dsp

All work with os8/9

If you want the best, get a lynx aes16 with an aurora 16vt