Author Topic: Second Wave Xpanse PN200 and Xpanse N200  (Read 1117 times)

Offline ivanshpak

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Second Wave Xpanse PN200 and Xpanse N200
« on: January 15, 2023, 07:25:22 AM »
Hello!
I faced a problem in OS 9.2.2 with recognition of NuBus cards in the chassis of the Second Wave PCI to NuBus, and despite its own extension "NuBus Gestalt", I see cards in the chassis using a proprietary utility, but I don't see them in system profiler

Are there any special extensions or separate modules to support NuBus cards in OS9 or OS8.6?

And question two. Why used to be the letter designation of Slots as NuBus and PCI?


Also on the host card there is a Dallas-type chip, is it possible that its complete loss of charge affects card recognition?

https://web.archive.org/web/20020617034453/http://www.2ndwave.com/support.asp?ProductID=53&mscssid=FCWRDXDHD9ES8KNX165MWGXCVJBJFFME
« Last Edit: January 15, 2023, 07:49:05 AM by ivanshpak »

Offline smilesdavis

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Re: Second Wave Xpanse PN200 and Xpanse N200
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2023, 08:24:56 AM »
what firmware do you currently have installed?
you gor rev 3.5 rom installed for beige g3s and g3 upgrades of a 7/8100?

what machine you try to run 8.x- what makes you assume you can run os9?

also

DIPSWITCHES

 Q: What should the dipswitch settings be set to on the 2 slot, 4 slot, or 8 slot NuBus expansion board?

 A: Factory configured settings are: 2 on, 1,3,4 off. Setting 2 on allows a 90 ms delay that is required by most NuBus cards. Some NuBus cards do not require this delay in which case setting 2 should be off and 4 should be on. You should not change the settings to anything else.
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Offline ivanshpak

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Re: Second Wave Xpanse PN200 and Xpanse N200
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2023, 09:17:32 AM »
what firmware do you currently have installed?
you gor rev 3.5 rom installed for beige g3s and g3 upgrades of a 7/8100?

what machine you try to run 8.x- what makes you assume you can run os9?

also

DIPSWITCHES

 Q: What should the dipswitch settings be set to on the 2 slot, 4 slot, or 8 slot NuBus expansion board?

 A: Factory configured settings are: 2 on, 1,3,4 off. Setting 2 on allows a 90 ms delay that is required by most NuBus cards. Some NuBus cards do not require this delay in which case setting 2 should be off and 4 should be on. You should not change the settings to anything else.

I'm trying on g4 AGP / MDD (2003), under OS 9.2.2. Before that, my cards worked on 8100 on 8.6 and everything is fine with that.  I just want to get rid of the 8100 in the workflow.  The question is can 9.2.2 work with NuBus?

do you have a user manual for this chassis from where information on DIP switches?

Offline smilesdavis

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Re: Second Wave Xpanse PN200 and Xpanse N200
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2023, 09:47:33 AM »
do you really have the 3.5 rom on that card?

please dump it for the rest of us

do you have a t48 programmer and a windows computer on hand?
Looking for: Steinberg Cubase MAC Standard/Score v1-5 & Cubase Audio v1, Cubase Audio v2 for, Cubase Audio v3 for DAE/TDM => complete or in parts

Offline robespierre

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Re: Second Wave Xpanse PN200 and Xpanse N200
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2023, 10:02:01 AM »
The rotary switch is for setting the NuBus address. It assigns the physical address 0xX000_0000 to the given slot. On a 6-slot Mac II, the slots are numbered 9, A, B, C, D, E. Don't use F.
The card needs to know which PCI address space windows to open to communicate with the NuBus, it needs to request those during boot time because there are none by default. If the card forgets its memory it can't do this. This should be made clearer by the manual.

Offline smilesdavis

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Re: Second Wave Xpanse PN200 and Xpanse N200
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2023, 10:04:41 AM »
did a manual ever surface?
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Offline robespierre

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Re: Second Wave Xpanse PN200 and Xpanse N200
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2023, 10:17:34 AM »
I only have a 7-page installation guide which is extremely stumm; you've already covered the only technical detail in it, the 90 ns bus clock delay on DIP switch CS1. It also says,
Quote
Associated with each slot is a 16-position rotary switch. These switches set the NuBus ID lines and determine the slot number The switch settings for Xpanse PN200 come factory configured for the Power Macintosh model indicated on the company's purchase order.

NOTE: If you want to use your Xpanse chassis with other Power Macintosh models, contact Second Wave technical support at 512-329-9283 for upgrade information. Only a licensed technician should change these switch settings and only if instructed to do so by Second Wave, Inc.
Really helpful, guys.

Offline smilesdavis

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Re: Second Wave Xpanse PN200 and Xpanse N200
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2023, 10:22:36 AM »
did someone pick up?

on a serious note, youre invited to join my little project to get pt iii nubus running on os 9, preferrably on a g4. other second wave owners are in on it. drop me a pm if you wanna hack like that.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2023, 10:58:17 AM by smilesdavis »
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Offline robespierre

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Re: Second Wave Xpanse PN200 and Xpanse N200
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2023, 11:01:22 AM »
Why not rig up a Magma cardbus-PCI chassis with the PN200 to put a NuVerb in a tibook? lol

Offline ivanshpak

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Re: Second Wave Xpanse PN200 and Xpanse N200
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2023, 11:06:19 AM »
do you really have the 3.5 rom on that card?

please dump it for the rest of us

do you have a t48 programmer and a windows computer on hand?

I think that in theory I could do a dump, next week, I do not have a programmer, but I will find one and make a dump.

Previously, this chassis worked with a 7600 mac

Offline ivanshpak

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Re: Second Wave Xpanse PN200 and Xpanse N200
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2023, 11:11:39 AM »
Still, my question remains open, why is Dallas on the host card?

Offline robespierre

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Re: Second Wave Xpanse PN200 and Xpanse N200
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2023, 11:38:56 AM »
It has to do with how PCI assigns memory. Intel defined PCI with three independent address spaces, called Memory, I/O, and Configuration. The Configuration space is the one where cards expose their Vendor and Product IDs, and request memory windows in the Memory or I/O spaces. The bus controller checks each slot to see if there is Configuration data at boot time and then tells the cards where they may use Memory or I/O space and whether they can use interrupts.

Note, at boot time, so something like the Second Wave needs to be prepared then to request its memory, I/O, interrupts, etc... but that depends on which NuBus cards are being used. So it has to remember the resources required by the NuBus cards until the next boot when it can request those resources using Configuration data from the bus controller. And the power may have been lost before the next boot, so it needs battery backup for that.

Offline ivanshpak

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Re: Second Wave Xpanse PN200 and Xpanse N200
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2023, 01:07:28 PM »
It has to do with how PCI assigns memory. Intel defined PCI with three independent address spaces, called Memory, I/O, and Configuration. The Configuration space is the one where cards expose their Vendor and Product IDs, and request memory windows in the Memory or I/O spaces. The bus controller checks each slot to see if there is Configuration data at boot time and then tells the cards where they may use Memory or I/O space and whether they can use interrupts.

Note, at boot time, so something like the Second Wave needs to be prepared then to request its memory, I/O, interrupts, etc... but that depends on which NuBus cards are being used. So it has to remember the resources required by the NuBus cards until the next boot when it can request those resources using Configuration data from the bus controller. And the power may have been lost before the next boot, so it needs battery backup for that.

Thanks for the answer! Well, apparently I need to replace it, since they are on sale, because its charge is enough for 10 years, given that the chassis was produced somewhere in 1995, this must be done first.

Offline ivanshpak

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Re: Second Wave Xpanse PN200 and Xpanse N200
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2023, 01:17:16 PM »
what firmware do you currently have installed?
you gor rev 3.5 rom installed for beige g3s and g3 upgrades of a 7/8100?

what machine you try to run 8.x- what makes you assume you can run os9?

also

DIPSWITCHES

 Q: What should the dipswitch settings be set to on the 2 slot, 4 slot, or 8 slot NuBus expansion board?

 A: Factory configured settings are: 2 on, 1,3,4 off. Setting 2 on allows a 90 ms delay that is required by most NuBus cards. Some NuBus cards do not require this delay in which case setting 2 should be off and 4 should be on. You should not change the settings to anything else.

Version 3.3 is written on the chip, does this mean that you need to upgrade to 3.5? Where can I get firmware 3.5 dump?

Offline balrog

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Re: Second Wave Xpanse PN200 and Xpanse N200
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2023, 03:29:02 PM »
I have a Second Wave PN400 system but with v3.4.

The Xpanse website indicates that ROM v3.5 is needed for Power Mac G3 computers, and I presume that if it works at all on newer machines it would also be required. Since Second Wave appears to be completely out of business, we'll just have to find one. I have a few leads on one, but it will likely still be a while. Otherwise... see if it works with a pre-G3 PCI Power Mac.

A ROM dump of 3.3 would be nice, at least we can see what they changed. 3.5 requires changing the switches as well  details can be found here: http://web.archive.org/web/20020621202212/http://www.2ndwave.com/readme.asp?ProductID=53&mscssid=FCWRDXDHD9ES8KNX165MWGXCVJBJFFME

My dump of 3.4 can be found here: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1063549059039764510/1064321671303008356/U30_REV_3.4___1996__SECOND_WAVE_INC.__W2.bin

Offline smilesdavis

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Re: Second Wave Xpanse PN200 and Xpanse N200
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2023, 04:00:54 PM »
welcome, these folks are pretty good at everything os9. we can hunt this rom down and help some nubus to go os9 :)
Looking for: Steinberg Cubase MAC Standard/Score v1-5 & Cubase Audio v1, Cubase Audio v2 for, Cubase Audio v3 for DAE/TDM => complete or in parts

Offline DieHard

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Re: Second Wave Xpanse PN200 and Xpanse N200
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2023, 09:15:16 AM »
Not sure if this is the card... but This guy has 3 cards in China, maybe one has been patched to 3.5 ?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/165796792606

Offline smilesdavis

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Re: Second Wave Xpanse PN200 and Xpanse N200
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2023, 09:17:20 AM »
This guy has 3 cards in China, maybe one has been patched to 3.5 ?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/165796792606

says "U30 Rev v3.3 (c) 1995 2ND WAVE" on 1 of them - chances are low theres 3.5 on the others.
Looking for: Steinberg Cubase MAC Standard/Score v1-5 & Cubase Audio v1, Cubase Audio v2 for, Cubase Audio v3 for DAE/TDM => complete or in parts

Offline DieHard

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Re: Second Wave Xpanse PN200 and Xpanse N200
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2023, 09:19:51 AM »
Yeah... I saw that, but...
1) He has 3 cards and only showing one of them and...
2) Maybe they are patched up to 3.5...

Offline smilesdavis

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Re: Second Wave Xpanse PN200 and Xpanse N200
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2023, 09:20:44 AM »
Yeah... I saw that, but...
1) He has 3 cards and only showing one of them and...
2) Maybe they are patched up to 3.5...

3.5 was a custom mailorder upgrade of the rom + installation instructions. if you just put a 3.5 on your card you might bust your system.
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Offline balrog

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Re: Second Wave Xpanse PN200 and Xpanse N200
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2023, 09:23:50 AM »
Yeah... I saw that, but...
1) He has 3 cards and only showing one of them and...
2) Maybe they are patched up to 3.5...

3.5 was a custom mailorder upgrade of the rom + installation instructions. if you just put a 3.5 on your card you might bust your system.

I suspect that some later systems were sold with v3.5, However, unless you can get a photo showing a v3.5 label, I wouldn't take the risk. I tried this a while back with similar sellers on AliExpress and they would claim they have v3.5 but would never send me a photo.

It's unlikely you'll damage your system; most likely it just won't work without appropriate setup.

 


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