Author Topic: Backup 9.1 to file  (Read 4340 times)

Offline Roman78

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Backup 9.1 to file
« on: August 15, 2022, 10:50:48 PM »
What would be the best way or tool to backup a system disk to a backup file?

A friend of mine owns an old PowerMac 6500 running OS 9.1. He uses this machine to run a cutting plotter. Runs fine, but he did not have a Backup... for over 20 Years....

I'm not that firm in OS9. I would not install any software, i would like to Boot from a CD and create a backup file on a USB drive. Oh, yes.. it has a USB 1.1 card.

Offline Mat

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Re: Backup 9.1 to file
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2022, 11:31:06 PM »
One nice thing about Mac OS 9 is that you can simply copy everything (well nearly, pending print jobs do not work for example). You can simply copy the entire disc to another and it will boot fine.

BUT: do not use USB as any drive will most probably be formatted in FAT. You need an HFS+ formatted mass storage device. Best would be to hook up another cheap HD (6500 should all have IDE) and copy everything there.

Of course there are some solutions for "real disc copys" as well, or even professional backup solutions, but they are not necessary for a first quick backup.


Offline Roman78

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Re: Backup 9.1 to file
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2022, 01:08:08 AM »
Problem would be a cheap HD. What would be the biggest possible? Old computer have some issues with to big harddisks.

Offline IIO

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Re: Backup 9.1 to file
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2022, 01:43:23 AM »
USB 2 to SATA adapter (1,95 euro) + 128 gb SSD (20 euro)


ist nicht teurer als ein stick, aber vielseitiger verwendbar und geht nicht so leicht verloren. stromversorgung über USB 1 ist im gegensatz zu HDDs überall problemlos.

und wie mat richtig anmerkt, für diesen zweck bitte auf jeden fall als HFS+ formatieren. dann ist es nämlich in der tat ausreichend einfach den systemordner zu kopieren. wobei ein old world mac vermutlich nicht über USB davon booten wird, das geht erst ab imac.

das kopieren geht auch vom laufenden system. nur zum zurückspielen später muss von der CD gebootet werden.

...und beschriften bevor man das backup in den schrank legt. :)
« Last Edit: August 16, 2022, 01:55:23 AM by IIO »
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Offline ovalking

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Re: Backup 9.1 to file
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2022, 02:01:20 AM »
You could use Disk Copy to create an image file of your System disk. Then copy that to your back-up medium.
That meets your requirements to create a file you could copy via USB, without installing software.

But Retrospect (network version) is best for my needs...

Offline teroyk

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Re: Backup 9.1 to file
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2022, 04:01:10 AM »
What would be the best way or tool to backup a system disk to a backup file?

I don't know if this is best way, but I have used this many times.
I connect Mac with firewire cable to another Mac that is installed Mac OS X.
I boot OSX Mac first then I boot OS 9 Mac with T-button down, so that mac looks like firewire HD to OSX Mac.
I make image with DiscCopy (come with OSX)...remember choose whole disk, not just partition.
After writing image to new disk, you can extend partition or add more partitions with iPartition.

I think both Macs can be OS 9 machines, but I newer have tested, because when I have make this, I didn't
have two OS 9 Macs that time. iPartition is OSX only.

« Last Edit: August 16, 2022, 04:18:31 AM by teroyk »

Online DieHard

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Re: Backup 9.1 to file
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2022, 08:38:25 AM »
For a standard/simple backup use this...

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2750.0.html

Quote
dantz Retrospect Express v4.1 Backup Software

Retrospect Express 4.1 is an excellent solution for Apple Computer's iMac customers. Customers can back up important files today over the Internet and use new USB devices (such as the Imation SuperDisk) as they become available.

New Disaster Recovery CD
Retrospect Express 4.1 now ships on a CD that starts up all modern Macintosh computers including the latest G3 and iMac models. Packed with a Mac OS 8.1 a system folder, Disk First Aid(TM), and Drive Setup(TM) utilities, users can boot off the CD and either repair the damaged hard drive or reformat it and restore the files, all without having to install a temporary system.

Support for New Devices
Retrospect Express 4.1 includes support for almost any removable drive including Zip, Jaz, SyQuest, MO, CD-R/RW, and DVD-RAM. New drives supported in this release include:
-- DVD-RAM drives from Panasonic and Hitachi
-- SuperDisk from Imation (USB device)
-- CD-RW drives from Philips and Yamaha

========================================= OR ==================================

If the plotter software is copy protected in any way, you can go extreme.. this will make a "perfect" image:

Apple Software Restore v2.2.5 with Apple Disk Copy v6.5b13

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,1822.0.html

Quote
The ASR or "Apple Software Restore" is a Utility for advanced users that is used to create a restore image from a Mac OS volume, and also restore that image to a new blank volume while preserving the settings of copy protected software that would normally not function after being copied.

Offline IIO

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Re: Backup 9.1 to file
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2022, 08:46:31 AM »
right, why make it simple when it can be complicated. :)
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Re: Backup 9.1 to file
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2022, 12:59:25 PM »
Exactly :)

Offline Mat

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Re: Backup 9.1 to file
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2022, 01:26:01 AM »
boot OS 9 Mac with T-button down, so that mac looks like firewire HD to OSX Mac.
That would lead to what exactly – at his 6500 without FireWire?  :P
And no, another machine with another OS is no simple backup solution. Well, one could as well setup a Linux machine, install a well working proper Netatalk with AFP and copy the HD over LAN. But that might be as well an overkil, when any (!) mass storage formatted as HFS+ would be enough for a first backup, …

Offline teroyk

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Re: Backup 9.1 to file
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2022, 09:53:04 AM »
boot OS 9 Mac with T-button down, so that mac looks like firewire HD to OSX Mac.
That would lead to what exactly – at his 6500 without FireWire?  :P

 :-[ ...I should remember that: read first question first... :-[

Offline Roman78

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Re: Backup 9.1 to file
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2022, 03:53:07 AM »
Oh, lots of things to try. I'll experiment and will report my preferred solution.

Offline Roman78

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Re: Backup 9.1 to file
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2023, 10:24:50 PM »
You could use Disk Copy to create an image file of your System disk. Then copy that to your back-up medium.
That meets your requirements to create a file you could copy via USB, without installing software.

But Retrospect (network version) is best for my needs...

So.. now i finnaly got the Computer. Disk Copy would not work because the disk is to large. Disk Copy only copies 2GB of data.

I'll try the Retrospect CD next. But first I make a one-on-one copy onto a new disk. 

Offline Roman78

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Re: Backup 9.1 to file
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2023, 11:20:11 PM »
One nice thing about Mac OS 9 is that you can simply copy everything (well nearly, pending print jobs do not work for example). You can simply copy the entire disc to another and it will boot fine.

BUT: do not use USB as any drive will most probably be formatted in FAT. You need an HFS+ formatted mass storage device. Best would be to hook up another cheap HD (6500 should all have IDE) and copy everything there.

Of course there are some solutions for "real disc copys" as well, or even professional backup solutions, but they are not necessary for a first quick backup.

I just copied everything on a other hard disk, but it won't boot from it. First i initialised the hard disk on a Powermac G4 using 9.2.2, than i copied everything onto the harddisk. But it won't boot. Is there a difference between os 9.1 and 9.2.2?

Offline ssp3

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Re: Backup 9.1 to file
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2023, 11:28:10 PM »
A word of caution!

Before you do anything with your friend's PM6500 internal IDE drive, ask him if his plotter software is copy protected and, if so, what kind of protection it uses.
Some copy protection schemes use drive's boot sectors to hide their copy bits there. These will not be copied by traditional backup software!
Only two methods of preserving those are known to me, but they require careful planning and execution of each step.

And do not connect that drive to OSX machine yet, or it will have uncorrectable B-tree errors afterwards.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2023, 11:42:45 PM by ssp3 »
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Offline ssp3

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Re: Backup 9.1 to file
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2023, 11:30:11 PM »
You have to "bless" the System folder. Move System suitcase out of System folder briefly and then move it back. That should do it.
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Offline Roman78

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Re: Backup 9.1 to file
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2023, 11:51:57 PM »
Hmmm i hope he does not have any of this copy protection, but I think he could not tell me.

So blesing. Hmmm I am using a German Version of OS9. I moved the Folder that looks like a suitcase out of the System Folder an d moved it back, but it still wont work. 

Offline ssp3

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Re: Backup 9.1 to file
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2023, 12:01:30 AM »
Any chance that the drive you're copying to is larger than 190 GB?
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Offline Roman78

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Re: Backup 9.1 to file
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2023, 12:08:39 AM »
Nope, 40 GB.

Well what do you know... it boots on the original 6500 but not on the G4. But the G4 should be compatible from 9.0.4 upwards. According to Everymac (https://everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/specs/powermac_g4_500_dp.html).

So it is blessed and working, but the G4 is the problem. I'll try a different G4, maybe the Dual G4 is somehow a problem.

And somehow he did not copied the stuff on the Desktop to the new hard disk.

Offline ssp3

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Re: Backup 9.1 to file
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2023, 12:24:12 AM »
Well what do you know... it boots on the original 6500 but not on the G4.

I thought you were going to boot the original machine, not some other, especially G4. Try to update the OS. 9.1->9.2->9.2.2

Quote
And somehow he did not copied the stuff on the Desktop to the new hard disk.

It is always that way. You have to put everything, that's on the Desktop into a separate folder and then move that folder to the main drive before copying. Just don't call that folder Desktop or Schreibtisch , that name is reserved by the System, IIRC.
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Offline Roman78

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Re: Backup 9.1 to file
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2023, 12:34:00 AM »
I will make 2 copies, one as a spare for the original 6500 (*done) and one for another G4. I'll have to upgrade to 9.2.2 for those (Quicksilver Dual 800 Mhz).

Just copying the Desktop-files.

Hmm the 40GB is much faster compared to the original 3GB Harddisk  ;D

Offline IIO

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Re: Backup 9.1 to file
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2023, 03:33:54 PM »
not booting in a g4-500 -> maybe GPU driver problem. but why boot from it at all?

ach ja, und ich nehme das netzteil wenn es noch da ist. melde mich drüben.
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Offline Roman78

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Re: Backup 9.1 to file
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2023, 10:00:27 PM »
I need to boot it to upgrade to 9.2.2. I got a spare PowerMac G4 QS here he wants to use in case the 6500 brake down.

At least it runs on the 6500. But there ist still one problem with the "kickstarter" program. I not familiar with that program, but on the cloned HDD it comes up with the error message about not finding the alias. Original message in German: ""Kickstarter" (Alias) konnte nicht geöffnet werden, da das Originalobjekt nicht gefunden wurde". But it won't tell me what this Alias is.

Ach.. und was heißt drüben? Ich bin in so vielen Fora unterwegs...

Offline IIO

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Re: Backup 9.1 to file
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2023, 01:05:40 AM »
you actually use this? i have no idea where it is, either /applications or eventually the executable is in the apple menu. you might want to use a search program to find it.

aliases sometimes dont clone right when their data in the HD catalog was faulty before.
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Offline Roman78

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Re: Backup 9.1 to file
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2023, 09:30:55 PM »
I don't use that. It is on the HDD i tried to clone.

I downloaded Retrospect Express (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2750.0.html), but somehow I'm stuck. The instructions says: 

Quote
Instructions: Most of our files have been encoded with MacBinary format (.bin) so that the data and the resource fork of the file will not be damaged when storing the file on a non-Macintosh file system. After downloading, if the file does not automatically decode by double-clicking, we recommend opening StuffIt Expander and Selecting "File" and "Open" to decode the downloaded file. StuffIt Expander is included in every Mac OS 9 installation. Additionally, once the StuffIt Expander app is open, check EDIT > PREFERENCES > INTERNET and "use stuffit expander for all available types"

But after double clicking on it, I receive a Retrospect.Toast file. Double clicking on that, he wants to burn the Toast file, but as I see it, as toast file, not the content.

/edit: I installed Toast 5.2.3 and I was able to mount the file. It is installing now.

/edit2: I am unable to create a Backup-File on a hard disk. Retrospect only backups on CD or Removable Devices such as Zip, JAZ and stuff but not on a separate folder on a hard disk.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2023, 12:53:27 AM by Roman78 »

Offline ssp3

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Re: Backup 9.1 to file
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2023, 01:36:46 AM »
You might want to try the FWB Backup Toolkit3. At a first glimpse, it looks very similar to Carbon Copy Cloner.

And this one too. It is, actually, the original creator of FWB Backup Toolkit.
https://tri-edre.com/download/download/downloadtbu.html

Here's more from the same company:
https://tri-edre.com/download/download/downloadcloner.html
« Last Edit: May 26, 2023, 04:22:52 AM by ssp3 »
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Offline Roman78

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Re: Backup 9.1 to file
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2023, 02:46:43 AM »
Well, retrospect did a good job cloning the disk onto another one. Even the stuff on the Desktop is there. The "kickstarter" still gives the error of the missing alias. Only had to bless the system folder by hand.

But the cloned disk wont boot on any G4 I have here. On the original 6500 both copies are working. I still have a G3 B/W to test the disk. Maybe I need to upgarde the OS, but according to everymac they should be capable of running even 9.0.x

Offline ssp3

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Re: Backup 9.1 to file
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2023, 05:29:59 AM »
I suspect you will need original grey Install & Restore CDs that are specific to your G4's to update the system on cloned drive.
You could also try to replace the System suitcase, System resources and ROM (Enabler) files with the newer ones for test purposes and to see if it works.
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Offline Jubadub

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Re: Backup 9.1 to file
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2023, 09:39:41 AM »
To backup, I just drag and drop my hard disk icon into a Disk Copy 6.5b13 window and voilá. Mac OS 9.1 might need an earlier version, but that should also be fine. Like 6.3.3.

Backing up the disk as a single image file via OS X Disk Utility that I can use directly from OS 9 also works. Requires a respectable version of OS X, though, like Jaguar (Tiger and Leopard won't work).

All this if my memory serves right, anyway.

 


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