Author Topic: minor EMILF: bus to bus IDE cable?  (Read 2438 times)

Offline IIO

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minor EMILF: bus to bus IDE cable?
« on: June 09, 2022, 03:12:03 AM »
in case this shit does not fit into a quicksilver or MMD:



are there special IDE cables which just replicate the bus? blue to blue and male to female? or how do you do it?
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Offline IIO

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Re: minor EMILF: bus to bus IDE cable?
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2022, 03:15:10 AM »

btw, you can buy those dual SATA converters for € 1,67 plus tax in germany. i´ve just ordered 8 pieces.
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Offline IIO

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Re: minor EMILF: bus to bus IDE cable?
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2022, 05:21:30 AM »
and IDE cables for 12 cents. this is hilarious.
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Offline FBz

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Re: minor EMILF: bus to bus IDE cable?
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2022, 08:16:35 AM »
How tall are those things, and added to the top of the ACARD?
Are you going to leave the case open? ;D

Offline peeperpc

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Re: minor EMILF: bus to bus IDE cable?
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2022, 12:01:31 PM »
I don't know if there is a finished product like that but I made one to extend my MDD's optical drive cable to reach the ATA 66 connector on the board. Each pair of the wires has to be twisted to keep the destination pins the same.

The principle is the same as this product: http://www.cablesonline.com/644fetomaide.html





Things that are used are two female 40-pin IDE connectors, a male to male 40-pin adapter and a piece of 40-wire ribbon cable. The ATA/SATA adapter is in the image for reference.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2022, 05:36:17 PM by peeperpc »

Offline peeperpc

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Re: minor EMILF: bus to bus IDE cable?
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2022, 12:38:03 PM »
This one probably produces the same effect by just flipping one of the connector?
https://aliexpress.com/i/32862098113.html






Offline IIO

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Re: minor EMILF: bus to bus IDE cable?
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2022, 04:47:02 PM »
beside the insecurity if and how wires pins would have to be reorganised, what baffles me most is that if you want to buy such an extension cable (which are male to female already) is that they have only 40 wires. shouldnt it be 80? i mean, we are talking about ATA 100 and 133.

those dual cards where both SATA connectors are going in the same direction could be such a nice cable-free solution, but the construction almost hits the fan already without the SATA cables attached.
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Offline peeperpc

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Re: minor EMILF: bus to bus IDE cable?
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2022, 05:33:37 PM »
From this diagram which I still don't fully understand. It looks like the locations of the 80 "prongs" make it impossible to easily rearrange them to keep the original pinout.



BTW, a multimeter with continuity test is your friend.

those dual cards where both SATA connectors are going in the same direction could be such a nice cable-free solution, but the construction almost hits the fan already without the SATA cables attached.

How much space is left? These angled ultra-slim sata cables may help.



« Last Edit: June 09, 2022, 05:51:04 PM by peeperpc »

Offline IIO

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Re: minor EMILF: bus to bus IDE cable?
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2022, 06:08:09 PM »
good find, these are at least 2 mm less tall than mine. :)

and i like these transparent one a lot, they re more flexible than the red ones. and should be totally ok for 133 and 150 attached.
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Offline IIO

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Re: minor EMILF: bus to bus IDE cable?
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2022, 01:07:34 AM »
found one. they seems to be quite rare, but they do exist. even with a blue connector, as a little hint how it may be used.

one should also use something like this for the controller(s) on the mobo. it can become quite dangerous to plug adapter cards directly into the buses, even if you no longer have 3.5" units flying around in your mac.



« Last Edit: June 10, 2022, 01:30:39 AM by IIO »
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Offline teroyk

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Re: minor EMILF: bus to bus IDE cable?
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2022, 11:55:02 AM »
btw, you can buy those dual SATA converters for € 1,67 plus tax in germany. i´ve just ordered 8 pieces.

Any link?
I bought my first new Mac when OS X 10.1 released. And I bought that Mac because it had Mac OS 9 too. And I bought my first 68k Mac when Apple stopped PPC Macs.

Offline IIO

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Offline IIO

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Re: minor EMILF: bus to bus IDE cable?
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2022, 06:13:08 PM »
https://cablematic.com/de/products/ata-adapter-sata-hdd-1xata-2xsata-hdd-DM035/#extra_product_info

9,50 euro shipping from spain for up to 10 different products, no matter how much.

sometimes you find there factory outlet / retour / b-stock articles for 10 cents instead of 8 euro.

of course then you buy stuff you dont need, but hey, it was cheap.

recently ordered 500 pieces of whatnot from them.
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Offline IIO

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Re: minor EMILF: bus to bus IDE cable?
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2022, 06:10:24 AM »
crap, now the acard stopped working under OSX.
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Offline IIO

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Re: minor EMILF: bus to bus IDE cable?
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2022, 11:08:41 AM »
solved.

if you plug two SATA adapters into the ACARD but one of them does not have the power connected, the whole PCI card is not recognized.

:P

btw. as you said, i will have to solder the power connector cables. the floppy power plug makes the construction too high. the card(s) itself is exactly as high as a regular PCI card, and the 3mms for a super slim SATA connector is also availabe.

it is just the power which is in the way (and you really dont want the main fan to devour that)
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Offline IIO

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The Slavery Adapter
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2022, 11:44:40 PM »
after removing the speaker, so that i could look inside the closed computer, i found that you can even leave the power connector as is. :)

it is very close, but safely doable! no extra nonsense required!

i estimated this differently before and thought it must be like 10 mm less than it actually is.

however, this install is not compatible with cutting off the grating of the main fan.


using a dual adapter on an IDE PCI card was the last round of my testing series... involving 6 different adapter types and all possible connection methods in a QS.

these funny chinese adapters from spain have no manual at all, but the boards look really clean* and well organised and they have the right control LEDs in the right places.
 
 
on the packaging it says: "when connect with device, please make sure to verify the master and slavery"

whatever that means - because there is no master and slave for SATA - and the adapter itself should, to my understanding, automatically appear to its IDE host as two devices, 0 and 1.

but it also means that we have a new code name for them: the "slavery adapter".
 
 
 *) unlike the horizontal "cheap" adapter boards which usually consist of more glue than PCB.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2022, 12:32:37 AM by IIO »
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Offline FBz

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IIO's Results
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2022, 12:00:09 AM »
“One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas.
How he got in my pajamas, I don't know.”
- Groucho Marx

Pictures of your various installation(s) und adapters… might be nice. ;)

Offline IIO

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Re: minor EMILF: bus to bus IDE cable?
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2022, 12:19:27 AM »
since i am too short on money for buying SSDs just for the fun i.e. where not required, my personal quicksilver setup will now be a compromise of all the different worlds:

1x ATA 100 (board)
 - single slavery or ADP adapter
 --- 4TB HDD 3,5"
 - single slavery or ADP adapter
 --- 4TB HDD 3,5"

1x SATA (Sonnet Seritek 1s2)
 --- 2TB SSD
 --- 2TB SSD

2x ATA 133 (ACARD)
 - dual slavery adapter
 --- 2TB HDD 2,5"
 --- 2TB HDD 2,5"
 - dual slavery adapter
 --- 2TB HDD 2,5"
 --- 2TB HDD 2,5"

the 2,5" HDD is only 120mb/s but i dont think it makes a relevant difference to a consumer SSD on the same controller (and costs 30% of it. and you can put it on reduced power mode)

i will lead the power cable out of the front so that the 4 small HDDs can be turned off when not in use for a while.

if i throw out the UAD (or the third monitor) i could repeat the slavery game one more time and upgrade to 12 internal disks.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2022, 12:46:33 AM by IIO »
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Offline IIO

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Re: minor EMILF: bus to bus IDE cable?
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2022, 12:30:30 AM »
i know, and i am sorry but i have nothing to make proper photos.

my not-in-use smartphone could, but it can for some reason no longer connect to my laptop or mac mini.

when i am finished with the cabelling and all i will try to catch up on it.

How tall are those things, and added to the top of the ACARD?

together they are exactly as high as a regular PCI card. coincidence?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2022, 12:49:25 AM by IIO »
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Online Protools5LEGuy

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Re: minor EMILF: bus to bus IDE cable?
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2022, 02:08:08 AM »

my not-in-use smartphone could, but it can for some reason no longer connect to my laptop or mac mini.


Mactron showed that FTP server "App" on smartphones is the fastest way to exchange files Smartphone<>MacOS9



1x ATA 100 (board)
 - single slavery or ADP adapter
 --- 4TB HDD 3,5"
 - single slavery or ADP adapter
 --- 4TB HDD 3,5"

1x SATA (Sonnet Seritek 1s2)
 --- 2TB SSD
 --- 2TB SSD

2x ATA 133 (ACARD)
 - dual slavery adapter
 --- 2TB HDD 2,5"
 --- 2TB HDD 2,5"
 - dual slavery adapter
 --- 2TB HDD 2,5"
 --- 2TB HDD 2,5"



Do 4 TB drives work on PowerMacs?

Do we had 2 TB partition limit or did we break that limit?

Can boot Mac OS 9 a 2.2TB partition?

Looking for MacOS 9.2.4

Offline IIO

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Re: minor EMILF: bus to bus IDE cable?
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2022, 02:24:57 AM »
Quote
Mactron showed that FTP server "App" on smartphones is the fastest way to exchange files Smartphone<>MacOS9

now that you say it, it might have USB. i was always using bluetooth and that stopped working last year with windows 10.
 
 
the 4TB drives were bought to try breaking the barrier via block size, which unfortunately failed for now.

if i keep using them internally, they will be 2,2.

but they are also 180mb/s and have 512mb cache, so they perform basically like an SSD. 2,5" HDDs are not there yet.
 
 
booting from 2 TB? will still only work from network i think. :)
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Offline IIO

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Re: minor EMILF: bus to bus IDE cable?
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2022, 12:02:41 PM »


it is too difficult with normal cables, so i have to use a bunch of these wonderful blue lefthanders to lead the cables to the front of the door before the bend into the case.

four of these silverstone cables are 75 dollars (OMG) but i guess that is okay when i consider how affordable the rest of the construction was.

be nice to your mac, and it will be nice to you.
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Offline teroyk

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Re: The Slavery Adapter
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2022, 09:09:15 AM »
using a dual adapter on an IDE PCI card was the last round of my testing series... involving 6 different adapter types and all possible connection methods in a QS.

Can you make one more round of your testing...does it work with SATA DVD-drives? First I though this question is stupid to ask, but I heard that those CD-drive-commands
are common for all SCSI/PATA/SATA-drives.
I bought my first new Mac when OS X 10.1 released. And I bought that Mac because it had Mac OS 9 too. And I bought my first 68k Mac when Apple stopped PPC Macs.

Offline IIO

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Re: minor EMILF: bus to bus IDE cable?
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2022, 09:40:02 AM »
i see no reason why any of the adapters should not work with optical drives. i only use ADP 006 or however they are called and only in external enclosures. (firewire to IDE case, then an SATA adapter, one older DVD and one 2019 BD burner. both also boot into 9.)

the focus of interest was on these master/slave and cable select buses issue. in this field everything works as you can expect it when you have only rudimentary knowledge about IDE (like beeing able to know that 1. your computer has master/slave or not, that 2. adapters without jumper setting are always "master" and 3. that you can combine those with one which can be set to slave.)

the only two interesting "new" points are:

 - this IDE card i am using with the vertcial adapter actually fits into a quicksilver case even with all the cable plugs mounted

 - i dont get that enclosured, bidirectional black startech adapter to work - with nothing - and i dont know why. maybe mine is broken?

for me personally it was also new that you can actually buy dual channel adapters for 5 euro or less.^^ getting stuff for 20% of the normal price seems to be only a matter of how long you search though different shops.

 
now i would love a source for those blue cables!

i found one offer on alibaba for 2,46, but that is the price for 500+ pieces.

the second best offer is 11 euro plus shipping. that means i would have to use cables for 45 euro to connect 4 HDDs for 200 euro to 2 SATA adapters which costed 2 euro each. :D
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Offline IIO

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Re: minor EMILF: bus to bus IDE cable?
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2022, 09:54:15 AM »
oh and what i also learned is that the cables are the big problem when you want to mount a bunch of disks in a quicksilver, where, as opposed to the MDD, the PCI is on  the left side, i.e. on the bottom when you close the door.

you can basically only lead cables from PCI cards along the PCI slot to the front where modem and bluetooth sits, fix them there to the door somehow, and then cross the hinge. weird to make such a pseudoscience out of attaching 8 cables to 8 disks, but it is the only way it works.

(this statement is made under the condition that you have all PCI slots in use, eventually with at least one card beeing full length (protools, powercore) and want to be able to open the case more than 1 time per year.)
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Offline IIO

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Re: minor EMILF: bus to bus IDE cable?
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2022, 07:44:15 AM »
so, while everything else works (acard with adapters plugged in & those wonderful blue cables fits in the QS, booting 9 and X, partitioning under 9 and X, all kind of disk operation) the setup did not pass the 8 week real life test.

there is one major problem with this and that is that after about 1 of 4 boots into OS9 the second SATA bus of the adapters remains silent, i.e.  the yellow control LED on the adapter is already off.

i could not find the reason for this - and it does not happen with other adapters or with direct IDE.
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Offline DieHard

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Re: minor EMILF: bus to bus IDE cable?
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2022, 09:56:05 AM »
Thanks for the update.  We will all continue to try these modern storage variations bridging the ancient technology.

To date, our member TAD has the ultimate OS9 storage, he runs everything externally in a small eSata caddy (it fits 4 NVMe SSD Drives) that sits on top of the MDD; he uses a PCI Seritek SATA card and runs the cables thru the back of the MDD to the eSata NVMe box/caddy  He leaves the top cover off and can easily swap drives at will.  The guy doesn't even screw them in, he uses a small piece of painter's tape to hold each NVMe M.2 SSD down.

Offline IIO

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Re: minor EMILF: bus to bus IDE cable?
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2022, 11:18:59 AM »
after the custom driver for the 2-port cards i am hoping for a MacOS9Lives custom OS9 driver for the seritek 4-port cards. :)
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