HELP! I think my FireWire bus is dead! PowerMac G4 Quicksilver 733

[markpaterson]

I have a PowerMac G4 Quicksilver 733Mhz with 1.5GB OWC RAM. My internal drive is a 2.5" OWC Legacy SSD connected via IDE to SATA bridge. It's 240GB but formatted to the 128GB limit and split into two equal partitions. OS 9.2.2 on one partition, OS X Tiger 10.4.11 on the other. It's been working fine since I set it up a few months ago.

FireWire worked great too, and I did a backup last night of each partition to my SmartDisk FireLite portable hard drive.

Today, I opened up the side to replace the 240GB SSD with a brand new unformatted 120GB SSD, and put the 240GB SSD into an OWC FireWire to SATA enclosure. My intention is to clone the OS partitions to the new 120GB SSD, and use the 240GB drive via FireWire to get around the 128GB limitation.

Here's where things go bad.

I connected the new portable OWC FireWire drive to the Mac, and booted up holding down the option key. I planned to boot from FireWire to start the restore process back to the internal drive. NO DRIVES FOUND. I shut down, and tried connecting my SmartDisk FireLite, which I know for sure works, and again NO DRIVES FOUND.

I grabbed my PowerBook Ti and plugged each FireWire drive into that, and lo and behold, they were detected at the boot menu and booted fine!

So the issue is clearly the Quicksilver. I know it's not an OS issue, because it doesn't even see the drives during the boot menu.

So I put the working 240GB SSD back into the Mac, booted into OS 9, and tried to trouble shoot.

Here's what I've tried so far…

Resetting the PRAM.

Changing the PRAM battery (I had a spare).

Pressing the PMU button while the Mac is on.

Unplugging the power, and everything else, waiting 10 mins, plugging power, keyboard, and mouse back in, booting up, then plugging in FireWire.

NONE OF THIS FIXED IT.

When I go to System Profiler it says under FireWire "No devices found on this bus".

I've booting into Open Firmware and typed "reset-nvram" (which is something I read that might fix it) but it gives me an error saying "Unknown word". What the hell?

I'm completely at a loss and why FireWire has suddenly died. I've sunk a decent amount of money into this machine lately and I'd hate it to be all for nothing. Please help!

[IIO]

but you said you did backups via firewire until recently, so the bus can´t be dead?

[FBz]

First off… big thanks for the very detailed run-down!

Using the MacOS9Lives Universal or the Rescue and Install downloads from the Forum to burn an installer disc (or an Apple retail installer disc) you might try formatting / partitioning AND perform OS installation(s) on the new 120 GB SSD - and then connect and attempt the use of the 240 GB (in the OWC enclosure via firewire) to move old data afterwards. At least install OS 9.2 on a single partition of the new 128 GB SSD.

OR at the very least, format the new SSD in the QS and then maybe you could boot it into Target Disk Mode and use your PowerBook (connected via Firewire & with the OWC enclosure connected to it) to then transfer from your old 240 GB SSD? (Might even test your FW again, after the initial format.)

[Some SmartDisk FireLite portable hard drives are USB, some are Firewire.]

Did you try BOTH Firewire ports on the QS?
I do have a QS “A” board with one dead Firewire port. (It happens.) AND while some may insist that Firewire is hot-swappable, that can sometime lead to frying a FW port. So I’ve come to avoid hot-plugging / hot-swapping whenever possible.

After all of the above, if nothing works… I may have more than one QS “A” board available. (Hopefully not just the one with the single, fried FW port.) So keep us all posted and if need be, PM me your location and another board could be on it’s way to you for the cost of postage alone.

Best of luck to you!

[markpaterson]

but you said you did backups via firewire until recently, so the bus can´t be dead?

I mean it died *after* the backups

[markpaterson]

First off… big thanks for the very detailed run-down!

Using the MacOS9Lives Universal or the Rescue and Install downloads from the Forum to burn an installer disc (or an Apple retail installer disc) you might try formatting / partitioning AND perform OS installation(s) on the new 120 GB SSD - and then connect and attempt the use of the 240 GB (in the OWC enclosure via firewire) to move old data afterwards. At least install OS 9.2 on a single partition of the new 128 GB SSD.

OR at the very least, format the new SSD in the QS and then maybe you could boot it into Target Disk Mode and use your PowerBook (connected via Firewire & with the OWC enclosure connected to it) to then transfer from your old 240 GB SSD? (Might even test your FW again, after the initial format.)

[Some SmartDisk FireLite portable hard drives are USB, some are Firewire.]

Did you try BOTH Firewire ports on the QS?
I do have a QS “A” board with one dead Firewire port. (It happens.) AND while some may insist that Firewire is hot-swappable, that can sometime lead to frying a FW port. So I’ve come to avoid hot-plugging / hot-swapping whenever possible.

After all of the above, if nothing works… I may have more than one QS “A” board available. (Hopefully not just the one with the single, fried FW port.) So keep us all posted and if need be, PM me your location and another board could be on it’s way to you for the cost of postage alone.

Best of luck to you!

My SmartDisk is FireWire. I forgot that they also made USB versions. After re-installing the 240GB SSD, I tried both the SmartDisk and the new OWC enclosure in both ports. Neither work.

I've also tried "init-nvram" and got the same "Unknown word" error.

This morning I ran Apple Hardware Test from a CD and it passed all tests, although I'm unsure how thorough this is and if it actually checks the FireWire bus.

I tried the MacOS9Lives universal CD but I had no luck there either. I didn't think it would work though, because there's nothing detected even at the option boot menu, ie before any OS is loaded.

Thanks for your offer to send a new logic board. I'm in the SF Bay Area. I think I might try a PCI FireWire card first though. They are dirt cheap. My only concern is that I need to be able to boot from the PCI FireWire (because I like to be able to boot from a cloned drive in an emergency). Do you know if this is possible with any generic PCI FireWire card? Or is it a feature that is specifically stated?

[DieHard]

Thanks for your offer to send a new logic board. I'm in the SF Bay Area. I think I might try a PCI FireWire card first though. They are dirt cheap. My only concern is that I need to be able to boot from the PCI FireWire (because I like to be able to boot from a cloned drive in an emergency). Do you know if this is possible with any generic PCI FireWire card? Or is it a feature that is specifically stated?

Wow, I'm Drawing a blank, been so long sing I tested that, I will pull out a QS, I have about 2 dozen cards to try and then I can send one to you that boots without any drivers needed, I am in the "Mexico" of CA, Inland empire

[markpaterson]

Thanks for your offer to send a new logic board. I'm in the SF Bay Area. I think I might try a PCI FireWire card first though. They are dirt cheap. My only concern is that I need to be able to boot from the PCI FireWire (because I like to be able to boot from a cloned drive in an emergency). Do you know if this is possible with any generic PCI FireWire card? Or is it a feature that is specifically stated?

Wow, I'm Drawing a blank, been so long sing I tested that, I will pull out a QS, I have about 2 dozen cards to try and then I can send one to you that boots without any drivers needed, I am in the "Mexico" of CA, Inland empire

Thank you, that's a very kind offer. I think a PCI FireWire (as long as it's bootable) would be preferable to me vs replacing the whole logicboard, because if the FireWire bus ever blows out again I can just swap out the PCI card. Much easier.

I was looking around and came across the Adaptec AFW-4300. Checking the manual PDF, it's Mac compatible but I'm unsure if it's bootable. https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2495737.m570.l1313&_nkw=+ADAPTEC+FireWire+1394+PCI+Card&_sacat=0

[markpaterson]

I've just took a gamble and bought this brand new unopened card off of eBay https://www.ebay.com/itm/154910339189

It seems like a popular card, so I'll report back on how it goes re: booting. It has a 30 day return window, so worst case scenario I just return it.

As a plan B, I've also ordered another StarTech IDE to SATA convertor (which will be set to slave mode), along with a SATA extension cable. The idea being that I can remove a spare PCI plate and feet the SATA cable out of the back. It won't be hot pluggable, but the idea being that I can power down, connect the spare SSD, backup (or restore), then power down and disconnect it. 2.5" SSDs are basically enclosures anyway, so I feel like that would be enough protection, and it would of course be bootable.

[FBz]

Just slapped a few PCI FW cards into a QS here and two-of-four booted without any additional drivers. One, an off-brand w/ an LSI chip and the other… an MIC with an Agere chip.

A Keyspan card (Model FPCI-3) and an Adaptec PTI-216N (combo card / USB & FW) did not mount. Previous research on the Adaptec found that a specific driver is needed. The Adaptec AFW-4300 that you mentioned, may also require such a driver too.

Note that the AFW-4300C from Portland Oregon (https://www.ebay.com/itm/303318436905?) does come with an installer disc that has QuickTime logo on it.

*And I used a “non-auxilliary powered” VST FW drive. (No power puck attached.) Still a bit slow to boot, but boot from the first two… it did.

Ahh, just noted that you've already opted for the other eBay listed FW card. AND instead of the expensive StarTech adapter, maybe hit DieHard up for a Bribge EVB-002-3 adapter. (Just as functional - and lots less expensive.)

[DieHard]

OK, you saved me from pulling out a QS and testing; if the card you bought is a "no go  Just lmk and I (or FBz) will get you a working one

[markpaterson]

Just slapped a few PCI FW cards into a QS here and two-of-four booted without any additional drivers. One, an off-brand w/ an LSI chip and the other… an MIC with an Agere chip.

A Keyspan card (Model FPCI-3) and an Adaptec PTI-216N (combo card / USB & FW) did not mount. Previous research on the Adaptec found that a specific driver is needed. The Adaptec AFW-4300 that you mentioned, may also require such a driver too.

Note that the AFW-4300C from Portland Oregon (https://www.ebay.com/itm/303318436905?) does come with an installer disc that has QuickTime logo on it.

*And I used a “non-auxilliary powered” VST FW drive. (No power puck attached.) Still a bit slow to boot, but boot from the first two… it did.

Ahh, just noted that you've already opted for the other eBay listed FW card. AND instead of the expensive StarTech adapter, maybe hit DieHard up for a Bribge EVB-002-3 adapter. (Just as functional - and lots less expensive.)

That's good info. Thanks for your efforts! I think the one I bought is a Rev A model, and while I can't see the whole text on the packaging, it looks like the CD might only contain a PDF manual and warranty info. Fingers crossed it doesn't require a driver. If it does, I can just return it.

[markpaterson]

OK, you saved me from pulling out a QS and testing; if the card you bought is a "no go  Just lmk and I (or FBz) will get you a working one

Thanks guys, I truly appreciate it! I'll report back when I get the card.

[FBz]

Always in the the minutiae?

This morning I wondered if maybe, somehow…
your FW extensions had been turned off, corrupted
or  deleted in some way. So I turned mine off and
voilá… ASP reported “no devices found on this bus”
and the same VST FW drive was attached
(previously recognized and mounted).




Then, just a bit more digging to discover the following:



So, if you do not have the original installer disc for the
SmartDisk FireLight FW drive, you may need search for
SmartDisk Tools to download & install. Or try Intech’s,
Hard Disk Speed Tools from:
https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/hard-disk-speedtools-36
(for OS 9).

Your new 128 GB SSD with a fresh install of OS 9 would
not have either of the above installed, nor would any
booted OS 9 installer disc - which is quite possibly why
the FireLight drive might not mount or even be recognized.

What still bothers me however, is that even when you
re-installed the original 240 GB SSD (which likely had
SmartDisk Tools on it)… it would not recognize the new
120 GB in the FireLight enclosure? Perhaps this was
due to the new 120 GB not being initialized / formatted?

Is SmartDisk Tools installed on your PowerBook Ti
OR did you boot that under OS X?

Your QS FW ports might be a-ok after all.

*AND if the SmartDisk Tools are installed on your
PowerBook Ti you might be able to simply copy them
over to your Quicksilver.
STILL…

With the 240 GB in the OWC enclosure AND the QS booted from an installer disc (or from a completely new OS 9 installation on the 120 GB SSD) - one would think that the OWC FW enclosure (with the 240) would mount?

But IF you also install Tiger on a 2nd partition (on the new internal 120 GB drive) you might then boot Tiger and see if the OWC / 240 would then mount? Testing again the function of your firewire ports as the firewire drives mount via the PowerBook.

One fried FW port maybe? But both? Difficult to accept.

[markpaterson]

I've actually never installed SmartDisk Tools! haha. In the past I just plugged it in and it "just works" as Apple like to say. My OS 9 install disk of choice is the MacOS9Lives universal installer. In fact, I don't even use a CD to install that. The install disk is on a partition of the SmartDisk!

I've booted into Tiger and saw that neither the SmartDisk nor the OWC FW are detected their either.

So I'm pretty sure it's just the ports that are toast.

[IIO]

you are right that usb and firewire via PCI *should* work out of the box, as long as the card generally supprts OS9, but we are used to deal with all kind of exceptions, mysterious issues and lucky finds here, so we look at those first.

[FBz]

Sincerely hope that the new PCI FW card does the trick for you.

But I’d certainly consider pulling that mobo…
in search of giant hairballs or other things
possibly accumulated on its’ backside.

Keep us all posted please. G’luck!

[markpaterson]

Success! The Adaptec FireConnect 4300 PCI FireWire card not only works great… it BOOTS! Both OS 9 and OS X boot with from FireWire with no issues!

Click the link below for pics so people can determine which one to get, if they need one.

https://imgur.com/a/FybOPTO

[DieHard]

Excellent