Author Topic: G3 B&W!  (Read 3016 times)

Offline FBz

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G3 B&W!
« on: November 10, 2021, 05:40:23 PM »
This is something of a continuation from:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=5436.msg45786#msg45786

The following (below) from : https://apple.fandom.com/wiki/Power_Macintosh_G3_(Blue_and_White)

Issues
Early "Revision 1" blue & white G3s had IDE controller problems, which made it impossible to connect two hard drives and also resulted in data transmission problems with drives containing newer controller boards. The logic boards of the "Revision 2" units have a revised IDE controller which allows two hard disks, and works correctly with newer drives, within the 28-bit LBA constraint. The Revision 2 units also contain a hard disk bracket designed for two drives and an updated graphics card.

Note: B&W G3 used here was originally a 300 MHz with Rev.1 board - recently replaced with a Rev.2 board and overclocked CPU to 400 MHz - to closely mirror Petros90’s U.K. B&W. And THIS new/used Rev.2 board has same (circa 1999) Apple part / I.D. number 820-1049-A as did the original Rev.1 board.

How can you visually differentiate between a Revision 1
and Revision 2 "Blue & White" Power Mac G3 model?


The CMD chip on Rev. 1 logic boards is PCI646U2 and on Rev. 2 logic boards is 646U2-402. To find the location of the CMD chip on the logic board, get a flashlight & shine it on the chip near the left rear of the motherboard as you face the open case. Just look for the hyphen in the number. If you have a hyphen you are on a Rev. 2 motherboard. - EveryMac.com

*No previous adapter testing was done here with any G3 and more specifically, none with a B&W. (In the SSD adapter thread: http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,5436.msg39965.html?PHPSESSID=4ef84517a63f0bb481c942a9fcc8c9e1#msg39965



It all… Depends!
Note the jumper settings that work in this instance with the Seagate Barracuda (right graphic above). And then note recommended jumper setting for the Western Digital Caviar HD which suggests a single jumper placed for “Dual Master” - which does not work with the SSD+ adapter (set to slave). Instead, leaving all jumpers off (as noted for “Single, Standard Installation - left graphic) does work. Confused yet? Further testing with other conventional drives is warranted.

But this isn’t the desired two SSDs on a ribbon cable arrangement. It does allow the added performance of one SSD (for OS and apps?) plus the conventional drive (for file writes and storage?)… while also reducing the overall power demands and heat of any previous, 2 conventional HD arrangement. And REMEMBER, DieHard's got the EVB-003-02 adapters for $3.99 each! http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,5436.msg44513.html#msg44513 (U.S. shipping only, included.)

AND I now wonder about same arrangement for the Quicksilvers? (MDDs are still restricted to one SSD with the EVB-003-02 jumpered as Master - due to MDD’s Cable Select jumper requirement.) So, care to join in all the fun? Test your conventional drive with an SSD + EVB-003-02 adapter in a B&W… and report your findings & jumper settings.

Will eventually test here with other & larger conventional drives - but for now, this is a rock-solid enough reason to try the ultra-inexpensive EVB-003-02 / Bribge adapter with an SSD… in a G3 B&W! Hopefully, more B&W related info (and fun) to follow in this thread from: (1). Petros90’s B&W project, (2). some further details from my B&W adventure AND (3). input from other G3 B&W users here.

Ever have the notion that the B&W G3’s suffered from “Middle Child Syndrome” as they were machines “right in-between”?
[Don’t even mention a Lombard!] ::)




« Last Edit: November 10, 2021, 06:21:34 PM by FBz »

Online DieHard

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Re: G3 B&W!
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2021, 09:36:38 AM »
Quote
AND I now wonder about same arrangement for the Quicksilvers? (MDDs are still restricted to one SSD with the EVB-003-02 jumpered as Master - due to MDD’s Cable Select jumper requirement.) So, care to join in all the fun? Test your conventional drive with an SSD + EVB-003-02 adapter in a B&W… and report your findings & jumper settings.

Yes, I think FBz deserves a little help here after spending countless hours on the B&W saga.  I no longer have a B&W G3 so it's up to you guys :)

Offline FBz

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More G3 B&W
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2021, 12:41:27 PM »
Notes, Tips and Random B&W Drivel

Do yourself a favor and save time between reboots & testing.
TURN OFF Startup Memory Tests!
(Works w/ other OS 9 machines too.)

(1). Open System Folder.
(2). Open Control Panels.
(3). Hold down Command Key & Option Key when opening Memory Control Panel.
(4). When open - you’ll then see the option to turn this off at bottom of the window.


Don’t know why VM is turned on here? It’s a mystery.

Added heatsink fan for overclocked CPU.
Overclocking is easy. (Details later.)
Changed this from 300 to 400 MHz.
(*Note red arrow in 2nd pic below.)

One of these fans fits nicely atop the stock heatsink.
Don’t want to overheat that 400 MHz CPU overclock.


*Und Low Pollution!

Et Viola!


However 1st placement would not allow closing of the door.
Metal mounting chassis for CD/DVD & Zip drive in the way.



Moved the fan to the lowest position on the heatsink, now just enough to clear. Just that little bit!


Rotated the fan & added bigger screws.
Think “VOID Warranty if seal is broken”?
Again, explain later when covering the overclock.
(Sticker removed from black jumper block / red asterisk.)


Intech’s CD/DVD SpeedTools 6.0

Spent a few hours testing this and didn’t seem worth the trouble.
The stock B&W CD/DVD drives were always a bit temperamental.
Funny that both Panther & Tiger utilize the very same drive much better.
Is there another Apple CD/DVD driver for OS 9 - other than the v.1.48?

Still think that Intech’s Hard Disk SpeedTools 3.6 is very useful with the B&W / OS 9.

More to follow…
« Last Edit: December 30, 2021, 06:46:55 AM by FdB »

Offline FBz

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Son of Franken-Blue… B&W / Overclocking
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2021, 10:10:46 AM »
Another B&W on my doorstep yesterday.
It’s a 350 MHz and it came with an Adaptec AVA-2906 SCSI card AND a Sonnet Tempo ATA 133 PCI Host Adapter card. No hard drive(s).




I’ve never seen one of these in-the-wild. (Showing off now.)
Someone was evidently compensating for the B&W’s 100 MHz Bus Speed. And as this B&W has the original wonky Rev.1 mobo, it’s likely that the Sonnet will eventually be moved to the flagship B&W here - the one now with the most stable, Rev.2 mobo. (Ya gotta check that CMD chip.)

Call me crazy but don’t get me wrong, but it seems rather expensive and effort-wasting to boost the B&Ws up to their absolute optimum performance with processor upgrades, host adapter cards, SSDs, etcetera… when there are so many Quicksilvers (and MDDs) still “out there” that are simply faster and better equipped (out-of-the-box) for a myriad of tasks (and more cost-effective). Sure, there’s the sentimental / nostalgic angle to muscle-up these B&Ws. And I spent many years and hours fighting with mine - attempting daily graphics production… and it often did quite well. Until it froze or crashed. (OS X didn’t help.) But I still enjoy the clicky-clacky Apple Extended ADB keyboards that the B&W ADB port allows. (It’s the little things, right?) We'll see how impressive the flagship B&W performs with the Sonnet installed and overclocked to maybe 500 MHz?

Someone else (Jason Taylor) singing the praises of the B&W G3:
https://jasontaylor.blog/mac-museum/power-macintosh-g3-blue-and-white/


OVERCLOCKING:


Well, I was waiting for Petros90 to successfully install his SSD in his B&W (or for anyone else here still running a B&W to chime in) before proceeding with this. But I need to get this all off my desktop and out of my head. Would’ve been nice to see others’ pictures of the SPEED/CTL block and how their jumpers were set… but here goes anyway.

Just to the right of the CPU, there’s that light blue block under the warranty warning. I doubt that any warranty is still in effect now 23 years later. (Some of these blocks are blue, some black and some even white.) Once removed, you can see the various jumpers placed within that block. Notice the little tab at the top of the block (top left) which serves to properly orient it when replacing it after any changes. (“Top of the block” to ya.)



Shown below, the jumper settings for the recently arrived, 350 MHz B&W. Sans warranty tape.
Intend to attempt an overclock to 450, before changing the CPU out.



Now, there are various reference sources for just what jumpers go where and for what overclocked speed. And they can be very confusing.
For instance, I thought that the red in this example below showed where jumpers should be… when in fact they denoted empty slots for the uppermost 4 positions on the jumper block. (Black being the actual jumper positions.)

The following image below “borrowed” from The House of Moth: https://thehouseofmoth.com/ppc-overclocking-station/#G3bw
More detailed instructions and insights there! It’s all really quite simple.



Again, position 5 (from the top) and below, are not changed. Clock speed is set / changed only via the topmost 4 positions and the jumpers themselves need be carefully pried from the block and you might need to add some jumpers from another source to achieve overclocks. Someone mentioned that regular HD jumpers can also be used, but not likely with the plastic jumper block itself. I don’t know about this - as a “regular” HD jumper seems a bit large, even when removed from its’ plastic housing. *Refer again to The House of Moth link above.



And here’s another jumper guide, turned on its’ side:
(Notice 5-6 and 8-9 jumpers remaining all same.)



I’ve some other ZIF CPUs to test and may go as far as a 500 MHz overclock.
But even at that (if stable)… Quicksilvers will still outpace and outperform the B&W.
(Even with the Sonnet Host Adapter card and attached SSDs.)

See if I can attach that Sonnet’s Quick Start Guide .pdf below?
(Important SCSI info, firmware update mentions and other important info!)
Also available here: http://www.sonnettech.com/support/downloads/manuals/tempo_ata133_qsg.pdf

So all-in-all… this has been a sort-of-fun exercise - but I’ve grown very weary of the G3’s.
AND if anyone’s interested in a B&W… looks like I may have two, to-go.
PM me.

Oi, the sentimental nostalgia of it all.

And don’t forget to add a fan! :o
« Last Edit: January 09, 2022, 10:43:11 PM by FdB »

Offline zefrenchtoon

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Re: G3 B&W!
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2021, 02:21:11 AM »
Hi!

I did overclock my father B&W G3 many years ago from 400 to 450. It was so cool ^^

Sorry for the "french" link but maybe this will explain some things to you on the different settings.

From 1 to 4 it sets the multiplier.
From 5 to 10 it sets the bus speed.

As you can see, by changing the bus speed you will change also the PCI bus speed so this can affect the working condition of PCI cards.

https://macbidouille.com/articles/l-overclock-des-g3-mode-d-emploi/page5

Offline Bolkonskij

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Re: G3 B&W!
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2021, 07:42:17 AM »
That brings back memories. I used to own a B&W that I bought for next to nothing back in the late 2000s (I think - getting old, don't pin me on dates anymore ;-) ).

I used the B&W for a year fiddling with it until I found out about the Rev I issue. (yes, it was a Rev 1). Being unable to remember as for why I had bought it (I ran OS9 on my G4) I decided to sell it. Again for next to nothing :-)

I think I really love(d) the looks of the machine that made it exciting to own / use, not so much actual performance or engineering brilliance. Back when it came out it was the incarnation of "thinking different" - probably just what Mr. Jobs had intended it to be.

Hmm... i guess these days the cases are more worth than all of the inards :)
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Online DieHard

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Re: G3 B&W!
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2021, 10:11:31 AM »
That brings back memories.
I think I really love(d) the looks of the machine that made it exciting to own / use, not so much actual performance or engineering brilliance.

Yes, I agree with both of those statements :)

By the way, the detail put into this topic is amazing; again FBz, you win the best graphic and explanation category again !

So before I acquired my G4 DAs and Server towers, the B&W G3 was my goto DAW for at least 2 years, I owned (2) equipped with the infamous PowerLogix G3 1GHz (see Picture).  They ran quiet and rock solid on 8.6 and I cut my teeth on Cubase 4.1, as an added bonus, I had NFR copies of all the early Steinberg, Waldorf, and other VIs that were actually quite usable with the 1GHz PowerLogix and for the first time, it was clear, that Native (non-DSP chip plugins) were gonna be here to stay and that the shear power of the Apple towers were gonna make history. 

Of course, I still couldn't resist cramming UAD1s and Powercore PCIs into the "mix"...  it was an exciting time, to move all production (other people's stuff) from the world DOS Voyetra (and striping SMPTE onto multiple Tascam 8 track reel to reels) to the world of Digital, non-linear editing.  OMG, no more track sheets or real time bouncing.  A little bird told me this was gonna be epic someday...

Offline FBz

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Re: G3 B&W!
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2021, 11:59:58 AM »
Thanks zefrenchtoon for the french link. Appears that the bus speed can also be changed via the P5 through P10 jumpers. However translated from french, there is this: “I do not recommend pushing the bus to 116 or 120 because the test conditions will be more complicated to manage.”  I might eventually test the 116 as that raises the PCI speed to 38.8. AND that will be tested with a Rev.1 board.

And yes Bolkonskij, they were quite the machines back-in-the-day and I even had the matched designed CRT monitor (now long dead). Ooh-la-la! I did get the Rev.2 board’s processor overclocked to 450 MHz last night and the new “doorstep” Rev.1 processor up to 400 from 350. I’ll change that ZIF CPU out to a basic 400 and then clock it up to 450 - if it’ll work.

“Doorstep” model (Rev.1) arrived here with two broken feet and those were replaced with two “clear acrylic” feet from the parts pile… thinking that I might lightly sandblast those to achieve something of a matte surface finish, more like the original B&W feet.

Tested both the “Doorstep” and Flagship machines here last night with conventional drives and an SSD and funnily enough, they both seemed quite zippy (responsive) under OS 9.2. Added in that Sonnet w/ SSD and some read/write speed improvement was noted via QuickBench. Not a lot, but some.

Red is conventional spinner HD.
Yellow is SSD with adapter.
Green is SSD with the Sonnet (w/adapter).



For comparison, here are abridged results for an SSD (with adapters) in a Quicksilver.
(Sadly, no cigar.)



*But Random Read numbers for the Sonnet + SSD in the B&W???
  Maybe IT needs testing in the QS?

So while a B&W is never gonna match the performance of a Quicksilver, even with a 133 MHz PCI Adapter card (and QuickBench results don’t even begin to consider everything)... the B&Ws are certainly a solid origin link to the past. (And kinda fun, really.)

Still like to compare performance with DieHard’s 1 GHz PowerLogix!

And… DieHard’s little bird  was correct.

Hey DH, why six sticks of RAM in that pic?
(More left coast magic?) ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 2021, 12:12:23 PM by FBz »

Offline nanopico

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Re: G3 B&W!
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2021, 12:18:46 PM »
This is actually my favorite PowerMac.  Like mine has the same 1GHZ cpu as DieHard had.
I always seemed to enjoy working with this machine over all my others.  Though I would agree many other machines are much more powerful and useful and readily available.

What all are we testing here?
I have one of those Sonnet ATA133 cards I just pulled out of my main DAW as I upgraded it with an A-CARD ATA133 Raid adapter.  Also have the ATA100 version of that Sonnet card and the Sonnet SATA card (though it's in use I can easily pull it temporarily to test anything).
If it ain't broke, don't fix it, or break it so you can fix it!

Offline FBz

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Re: G3 B&W!
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2021, 01:27:45 PM »
Heyyyy!

Nano if you’ve the time, just run QuickBench with that 1GHz CPU with a traditional spinner HD AND maybe an SSD+adapter (and with an SSD connected to the Sonnet ATA 133). All just to compare with my QuickBench results noted above. Just how close can you get to the Quicksilver results… or possibly surpass them?

Really trying to see just how far the B&Ws can be “muscled-up”.

Petros90 has had that same processor now for nearly 2 years and has yet to install it successfully. (Other upgrades along-the-way concerns.)

(Ya wouldn’t happen to have an extra Rev.2 board just lying around?)
*And yes, I’ve still a backlog list of items to ship out. :(

Online DieHard

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Re: G3 B&W!
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2021, 04:59:42 PM »
Quote
Hey DH, why six sticks of RAM in that pic?
(More left coast magic?)

No reason at all...
When you lazily grab other peoples web pics you have to live with the results :(

Offline nanopico

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Re: G3 B&W!
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2022, 10:47:20 AM »

Heyyyy!

Nano if you’ve the time, just run QuickBench with that 1GHz CPU with a traditional spinner HD AND maybe an SSD+adapter (and with an SSD connected to the Sonnet ATA 133). All just to compare with my QuickBench results noted above. Just how close can you get to the Quicksilver results… or possibly surpass them?

Really trying to see just how far the B&Ws can be “muscled-up”.

Petros90 has had that same processor now for nearly 2 years and has yet to install it successfully. (Other upgrades along-the-way concerns.)

(Ya wouldn’t happen to have an extra Rev.2 board just lying around?)
*And yes, I’ve still a backlog list of items to ship out. :(

I think I can handle that.  Give me a week or so. I have a project for work that is sort of consuming most of my free time at the moment that I am hoping to wrap up this week.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it, or break it so you can fix it!

Offline FBz

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Re: G3 B&W QuickBench
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2022, 12:33:51 PM »
I think I can handle that.  Give me a week or so.

Great! Thanks Nano.

Looking forward to your results. I used an 80 GB Seagate Barracuda and an Inland Pro 128 GB SSD with a Bribge adapter. (Not that you need do same.) I might even try a StarTech SSD adapter bridge here to see if I can milk just a little bit better performance from that.

*Aren’t the StarTechs now getting a bit scarce? I know that the similar, Marvell chip-based sleds are.


Thus again, perhaps words to the wise:
Best to hit up DieHard for some of those very inexpensive EVB-002-3 / “Bribge” adapters. ::)

Offline zefrenchtoon

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Re: G3 B&W!
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2022, 04:51:12 AM »
Thanks zefrenchtoon for the french link.

...

So while a B&W is never gonna match the performance of a Quicksilver, even with a 133 MHz PCI Adapter card (and QuickBench results don’t even begin to consider everything)... the B&Ws are certainly a solid origin link to the past. (And kinda fun, really.)
...

You're welcome !  :)

If you really want to get best performance from a B&W G3 then you will have to read this (another french) post:
https://www.journaldulapin.com/2015/04/28/sata-et-vieux-power-mac-comment-obtenir-les-meilleurs-performances/

The trick is to switch the ATA (or SATA) PCI card in the 66MHz PCI slot where there is the video card.
So you will benefit of the better frequency of this slot without modifying the motherboard bus frequency.  ;)

Another thing to know about these G3, some had an aluminium made processor while others had copper ones. The copper ones were better to overclock than the alu ones.
On a Rev 1 board, the 400MHz series were copper while 300/350 were alu. :)

I never tried to overclock my father's to 500MHz but I read that some were ok without changing bus frequency.

Offline FBz

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Re: G3 B&W!!!!
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2022, 05:26:44 PM »
BIG thanks to Zefrenchtoon.

Given recent experience with the troublesome PowerPC 750L (LoneStar, Rev2.2) Copper G3 PVR = 0x00088202 in the Lombard here, I switched the CPUs in the B&Ws to the aluminum Motorola chips. Both have attained 450 MHz, overclocked with jumpers. Hopefully the B&W 750L chips will not be of the same problematic LoneStar Rev 2.2 variety. So far, so good.



The Motorolas (aluminum) appear different  than the IBM chips.
Top 2 pictured here = Motorola. Bottom(s) = IBM.

*IBM pictured here is currently in the “Flagship B&W” - overclocked to 450 MHz.


Another IBM variant…


Here are some other  recent results:

*All test results just below, with the new “Doorstep” B&W w/ a Rev.1 mobo, 1 GB RAM and the CPU clocked to 450 MHz.

Comparisons between the StarTech adapter on the IDE / PATA Bus cable vs. the StarTech (on the Sonnet Tempo ATA 133 PCI Host Adapter card) provided a large improvement in the Random Read & the overall Read Performance results. Compare results below, left-to-right in this image. Cable vs. Adapter Card and Radeon video card in “normal position”.




BUT… the EVB-002-3 (Bribge) adapter on the left (below) versus the StarTech on the right. Both tested & connected to the Sonnet Tempo ATA 133 - provided these results:



(*Four dollars (for the EVB Bribge) versus Twenty dollars for the StarTech? http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,5967.msg44537.html#msg44537)
AGAIN… above results are from the “Doorstep B&W” with the Rev.1 board.
Results below are from a Rev.2 board equipped B&W.


SO FINALLY, the Sonnet ATA 133 card in the VIDEO SLOT / with EVB Bridge & Inland 128 GB SSD.

HUGE thanks to Zefrenchtoon!



*And special thanks again to Tugboat for the “Drawing Board” Appearance package from: https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/appearance-addons-appearance-manager
Looks like the [ID=0 ATA 1] Spinner, could use a Driver update from 3.2.5 to 3.3?
Notice that the SSD shows as ID=0 on SCSI Bus 1 - see right side above.
(Removed the 40 GB Seagate Spinner.)



Mac Radeon 9200LE Video card (red) not in the 1st (typical) video slot. Per Zefrenchtoon!



Note the white jumper (Master set) next to the red light on the EVB SSD adapter bridge.
Had to remove 40 GB Seagate Spinner, Slave drive to provide power for SSD.
Guess I’ll need a Y molex splitter to have a second Slave spinner?
(Like I’ll miss another spinner with this setup.)

And now… Zee Big Deal.
The *Sonnet ATA 133 card with SSD… results.
*With the Sonnet in the video slot!

And sure, results with a StarTech - might even be slightly better.
But compare these numbers to those located closer to the top, above.
Those results were from the Sonnet in the slot that the video card now occupies.
Big difference.



Looks like the B&W G3 might not be such a slouch with an SSD connected to a Sonnet ATA 133
…placed in the normal video slot. And these results are from an overclocked CPU to 450 MHz.

Oh HELL… remember the Quicksilver results with an SSD and bridge adapter?



Or the MDD results with an SSD and RXD-629A7-7 adapter:



Now I wonder about this Sonnet in the video slot of a QS or MDD?
Sheesh! Maybe I should learn French after all?

Of course, I’ll try this same setup (with the Sonnet in the video slot) back in the “Doorstep model”
with the Rev.1 mobo eventually. That might help out with more available slots for SSDs!
And MAYBE I’ll test the StarTech too… eventually.

Good Night Irene! ::)

Now awaiting results from Nano UND Petros90!!!
« Last Edit: January 09, 2022, 10:47:53 PM by FdB »

Offline zefrenchtoon

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Re: G3 B&W!
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2022, 04:43:36 AM »
You’re welcome  :D

But you will not be able to do the same in a QS or MDD because vidéo card slot is an AGP one so it’s really dedicated to video.
The only thing you can try is to find a PCI-X SATA adapter board to fit the 64 bit (long) slot in QS and MDD.

The only G4 that can do the same trick is the Yikes which is a G3 with a G4 in it and without ADB.

Offline zefrenchtoon

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Re: G3 B&W!
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2022, 04:58:09 AM »
You can check PCI differences here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PCI_Keying.svg

To understand why it can be faster or slower depending on the slot form factor.

Offline FBz

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Bleu et blanc G3
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2022, 10:17:21 AM »


For a machine that I had spent so much graphics production time with “back in the day” (a Rev.1 board-equipped freezing-crashing nightmare) the little stroll of this thread begs the question of just what might have been IF I had stuck with it at least until the point of the Rev.2 motherboard. (*Not to mention the little Sonnet / video card switch-er-roo, that I only just heard of from Zefrenchtoon.) WHO KNEW?

So now, after a little cleaning-up and buttoning-up of the “Flagship model” here, I’ll throw some large file image tasking at it via Photoshop and see just how it NOW performs. It might then attain a very well-deserved & revered position alongside my favorite Quicksilvers and MDDs.

Have YOU an old B&W gathering dust somewhere or in storage? Get it out and read back through this thread and maybe bring yours back to a new life! You could be just as surprised as I am.
(Lookin' at you Petros90.) ;)

Merci beaucoup mon ami.
Laissez le bon temps rouler!
« Last Edit: January 09, 2022, 10:49:04 PM by FdB »

Offline FBz

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B&W / SSD Addendum
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2022, 12:06:23 AM »
The B&W G3’s are finicky at best. This includes both mobos, Rev.2 AND especially the Rev.1’s.
Add an SSD with adapter bridge into the mix and you’ve even more possible fun to contend with.

Due to the often less than stellar performance of the B&W CD/DVD drives, it’s often best practice to format, partition and install your OS(es) on another machine (like a Quicksilver) before then - placing that SSD into the B&W. BUT this can sometimes be accomplished in the B&W… IF you’ve a dependable CD/DVD drive in your B&W.

Either case, there’s no guarantee that the B&W will recognize the SSD (or any OS installed on it) as a bootable source.
In many cases, afterwards I’ve had to boot the B&W from an OS installer disc in order to choose a newly installed SSD / partition  AS a bootable drive. After that… no problemos.

The following images show various setups with an  EVB-002-3 (Bribge) adapter bridge with an Inland SSD / AND a setup with two retro conventional spinner drives as well.



The (above) shows an Inland SSD and EVB-002-3 adapter WITH its’ jumper* in place / set as Master on the last (black) position on the ribbon cable. (*Master jumper settings may differ with other adapters.) You may note the grey (middle connector) on the ribbon cable as vacant AND see the blue connector out-of-focus in the background in this pic. This should be the BASIC, first test setup for any SSD requiring an adapter (especially in a B&W). If you can’t get your B&W to recognize or boot from this setup (after it’s been formatted and OS installed) then you may need try booting from an OS installer CD to select an OS 9 partition on the SSD as a boot drive.

Consequently, if you’ve NOT installed OS 9 drivers on that partition previously… well then, do that step over again. ALL multi-partitioned and multi-OS drives here, normally begin by using OS 9.2.2 installer CD to format and partition any new drives with Drive Setup - to first install OS 9.2.2 on the SSD. Afterwards, any flavors of OS X are then approached / added to other partitions… leaving the first (OS 9.2.2) partition untouched.

After all the above is accomplished you can then move onto the dual-drive setup with a conventional drive (or possibly even another SSD set as Slave + another one set as Master). Next example shows a conventional drive.




Here you can see that the SSD and adapter have been moved to the gray connector (Slave position) on the ribbon cable AND it’s (white) jumper removed to define it as a Slave. The Conventional “spinner” HD has been added to the cable (black connector) and it’s jumper(s) set to Master. I’ve only just recently discovered that some “spinners” require TWO jumpers to define them as a Master. (See next image below.) One needs to check such drives for the proper jumper settings.

Once the first example above (the solo SSD set as Master alone) has been tested, then this added spinner HD approach can also be tested.


AND finally, two conventional drives on the cable… one set as Master and the other one as Slave. (In this instance, the Master HD required two jumpers.)



AGAIN, your conventional spinner HD may not require two jumpers. Maybe only one… and perhaps none… depending upon your specific conventional HD’s reqs.

At any rate, even one conventional drive alone (appropriately set as Master and on the black connector) on the ribbon cable - could “test” the function of the "ATA port".

AND all of the above may well translate over to SSDs in Quicksilvers, DA’s, etcetera. I’ve not tested.
BUT MDDs are definitely different creatures altogether, with their CS (Cable Select) jumper setting reqs.

So, problems with an SSD in a B&W? Check and test the first solo SSD example shown above.

AND again, you might need a bootable OS installer disc to initially SELECT an installed SSD partition as a boot drive.

Recently I attempted the two conventional drives on a cable (last example above) and could not figure out why it would not boot.
Then I realized that I was trying this in a B&W with a Rev.1 motherboard.
Ha-HA! (Single drives only.)  ::)

Offline teroyk

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Re: G3 B&W!
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2022, 05:55:47 AM »
Thanks FBz for good posts.

My only question is what is most lightweight DAW software for G3 B&W with some 24bit/96khz audio-tracks and some midi-tracks?
I bought my first new Mac when OS X 10.1 released. And I bought that Mac because it had Mac OS 9 too. And I bought my first 68k Mac when Apple stopped PPC Macs.

Offline FBz

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Lightweight / B&W DAW?
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2022, 07:34:24 AM »
Thank YOU teroyk for your very kind words.

I’ll leave your lightweight DAW query to those more qualified to provide that best answer. Perhaps one (sunglass-wearing) individual or others here are infinitely better versed to provide you with the best answer?

In other related news, found a source for (10+) B&W Rev.2 mobos and await news from mopar300m before open posting that source - allowing mopar time to order one if necessary, before letting that cat out of the bag. I installed one and briefly tested it here late last night with very good results.

(I don’t expect stock to last very long - once the source is revealed.) :o

Online DieHard

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Re: G3 B&W!
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2022, 09:42:39 AM »
Thanks FBz for good posts.
My only question is what is most lightweight DAW software for G3 B&W with some 24bit/96khz audio-tracks and some midi-tracks?

Steinberg Cubasis VST Version 2.0 for Mac
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,845.0.html

As far as 24bit/96khz audio-tracks... that is going to depend on your interface and ASIO driver, 24 Bit 44.1 is a much better performance choice and will still yield professional results with a good interface and/or mic. 

CuBasis is a great, solid, and easy to use lightweight DAW, but is more limited in the number of inserts per channel, tracks, and etc.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2022, 03:32:42 PM by DieHard »

Offline teroyk

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Re: G3 B&W!
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2022, 01:31:26 PM »
My only question is what is most lightweight DAW software for G3 B&W with some 24bit/96khz audio-tracks and some midi-tracks?
Steinberg Cubasis VST Version 2.0 for Mac
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,845.0.html

As far as 24bit/96khz audio-tracks... that is going to depend on your interface and ASIO driver, 24 Bit 16K is a much better choice and will still yield professional results with a good interface and/or mic. 

CuBasis is a great, solid, and easy to use lightweight DAW, but is more limited in the number of inserts per channel, tracks, and etc.

Ahh..I had forget lightweight Cubase, the Cubasis  :-[
I even had Cubasis OEM already one driver CD-ROM.
BTW..that Cubasis OEM program file is 3 hours newer date stamp than that Cubasis VST 2.0, but OEM missing VST instruments-menu and had 80 page shorter document pdf, but it's date stamp is 2 months newer. Both have same system requirements.
Both versions don't have audiotrack-editor, but Steinberg recommented Spark LE 2 in Cubasis readme and if you click audio-track it ask editor program...And I don't think that there is more lightweight sample-editor that support 24bit/96khz or is there?

And yes..there is not many 24khz/96khz interfaces that works with G3 B&W, but there is. And that's true that without good preamp that quality is useless, except if you want capture more noise and add "conversion noise" when downsampling to CD quality.

EDIT: some fixes to help understand my bad english  :-[
« Last Edit: January 28, 2022, 05:55:22 AM by teroyk »
I bought my first new Mac when OS X 10.1 released. And I bought that Mac because it had Mac OS 9 too. And I bought my first 68k Mac when Apple stopped PPC Macs.

Offline zefrenchtoon

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Re: Lightweight / B&W DAW?
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2022, 11:29:54 PM »
...
In other related news, found a source for (10+) B&W Rev.2 mobos and await news from mopar300m before open posting that source - allowing mopar time to order one if necessary, before letting that cat out of the bag. I installed one and briefly tested it here late last night with very good results.

...

I was thinking about you when I post this ;)
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,6190.0.html

Offline FBz

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B&W Rev.2 / Errata
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2022, 10:11:57 AM »
Thanks Z for thinking of me!

After viewing your link - thought I might have to add Japanese to the list of languages that I need to learn… but thankfully Kero’s MacMods features English in description. AND mopar300m has received and installed a Yikes mobo in his B&W. Stated that he would also order a B&W Rev.2 mobo today, so we may have a performance comparison between the two, soon.

I’ll now post that Rev.2 mobo link.
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,6191.0.html

AND on the subject of the Yikes ADB port…
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,6190.msg46322.html#msg46322
« Last Edit: January 28, 2022, 10:26:17 AM by FBz »

 


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