Storage, backup, and talking to PCs and the Outside World

[Petros90]

Thanks to all who read my post three years ago about this issue.
Thanks to Reader 50 who responded.

The issue is still not resolved. "All" I want, is to be able to save /backup projects to an external hard drive, and thence to a PC for further development and ultimately to the outside world via The Internet.

This seems on the surface a simple issue, but it drove me barking mad three years ago and my Mac G3 (bought new in '99 as a University student) project ground to a halt and I gave up.
There was but one reply to my "The PCI / USB1 / FW400 / ATA100 issues" post in March 2018 despite it being read 2680 times. Perhaps I was trying to solve a range of issues and the topic/s was too broad.

Lat week I re-re-resurrected the G3. It seems to be running OK, three partitions on a HDD totalling 120GB. There's a video editing partition with Premiere 6, an old favouriute, and a Cubase 5.1 partition plus a larger storage partition.

If I can try and describe the issue, just to be absolutely clear, not being funny etc:

The G3 has FW 400 built-in, I have an external LaCie 20GB FW drive, just FW, no USB
The G3 has built in USB (retrospectively, USB 1) - two ports, one for KB & mouse, one spare. Transferring files this way is obviously painfully slow, but at least it's an option.

Back in the day I would burn three-minute video projects onto CD along with project files. These days, I'd like to create bigger projects on this machine.

So, my "simple" solution, was, and possibly still would be, an external drive that had both USB 2 and FW 400, so I could swap files easily - and quickly - between the G3 and PCs.

Looking through my collection of "stuff" I discovered that back then I had sourced an OWC Mercury Elite Pro Dual RAID enclosure, which has USB 2 and FW 800, a FW 800 to 400 cable, and a Sandisk 120GB SSD.

(I also found a Seriatek 1eVE2+2 PCI 4-port SATA controller (also has 2 internal cables) card, imported to the UK at an alarming cost. This was presumably to address internal speed issues, so as far is this post is concerned is I think a herring of the scarlet variety.)

So yesterday I did this:

Plugged the drive into my PC (W10) via a USB dock. It didn't appear, but Windows knew it was here as it gave the merry "I see you" sound and again on disconnect.
Now, I can't recall if Windows can "see" Mac-formatted drives so they appear as folders. I thought it could but I'm not certain, so I followed OWC's instructions and inserted the SSD into
the RAID enclosure and set the selector to "independent", booted up. It didn't appear, tried a couple of times, nada.

My questions are! -

1) am I on the right track with this solution? Anyone tried it?

2) maybe the drive is toast (not "Toast" the CD-burning program), should I try to source one of MacTron's "known SSDs that work with OS9"?

3) have I missed something? Am I being a numptie?

4) with a new SSD do I need to do anything else, can I format the drive through FW, or do I have to insert the PCI card, connect the SSD/s, format, remove, etc etc - it appears I only need to do this if I'm partitioning the drive. I'm not worried at this stage about formatting a large drive to "only" 120 GB. It's a small price to pay.

5) Is there now a dedicated USB 2 + FW external drive? That would be like, oh I don't know, very cool.

6) really don't want to do that 4) internal formatting etc stage thing above. I nearly went mad three years ago.

7) Final thoughts as I'm typing this - is this all a sledgehammer to crack a nut? I have access now to a relatively new PC which seems to have a spare PCIe slot. You know what I'm thinking, sling a cheap FW card in there and my problem is solved. Could it be that simple? Am I missing something?

if 7) above, can I install a bigger drive - say a 120GB SSD or HDD in the LaCie? It is held together with screws,

9) Anyone come up with a way to run USB 2 on OS9 yet? Just kidding ...

I have of course read DieHard's Guide to creating a portable external drive but this doesn't address my issue. I have yet to find (apart from the OWC RAID box) an external drive that has both USB and FW.

I have, of course searched this Board, it seems most are concerned with booting from an external drive, speeding up internal storage etc. At this point I'm really not too concerned about speed issues, the G3 seems fast enough currently. Apart from this one thing.

After only two weeks into the re-re-resurrection shuffle, all this seems to be like wading through treacle. Please bear with me, I'm trying to re-learn many things what I have forgot.

I know a lot of you guys have bene doing this a loooong time and this problem may seem trivial, but someone could make an old man very happy if this wee problem were to be resolved.

I have spent a lot of time getting the G3 to this stage, within minutes of booting up for the first time in three years I remembered what it was I liked about it. How can a 400MHz single core be so ... snappy?

Fingers crossed - and, thanks. In any case, it's good to be back.

[Jacques]

I can't answer all your questions...but...

I have a PHR-250CC 2.5" aluminium enclosure I bought in...oh, 2005? I use this with a little 60GB drive to transfer between my Mac Mini G4, 2012 Mac Pro and my linux/Win10 box. It is USB2.0 and FW400. However, my 60GB drive is partitioned as FAT32 and HFS+, so anything I need to shift to the Win10 box I copy to the FAT32 partition. Note, you will lose any permissions when moving files to FAT32, so image / archive the info first and then copy across.

Also, the little enclosure certainly works very well with FW400 without external power, however due to the limited 500mA power draw on USB2, the drives you can use will be limited if you are solely powering via USB2. The enclosure is supplied with a DC power jack so you can add a 5V supply to overcome this issue. (USB cable -> DC 5V power cord, loads available). My Hitachi Travelstar 7200rpm drive pulls 1.1A and won't even spin up while purely on USB. The Fujitsu I have pulls 550mA and it will spin and read, but after extended us it will splutter and restart due to lack of available current.

MacAlly used to make them with the PHR-250CC reference, mine was a generic import from China to the UK...though it looks like a MacAlly, but without the brand name.

PS - If you plug a HFS / HFS+ drive straight into Win10 it will register the drive but not be able to open / access it as Windows doesn't understand HFS/HFS+. You can *buy* HFS+ software for Windows that will read the filesystem (Paragon, £20...I'm sure others are available), though I suggest just go FAT32 and keep an eye on permissions.

Edit - I'm on OSX 10.4.11 and MacOS 10.14.6....Does OS9 have FAT32 support?

[ovalking]

Sorry, I've no experience of SSDs (yet).
On the odd occasions I need to transfer files between Mac & Windows I use ftp.

[FBz]

Have been fighting here with this for the last 2-3 days and thinking that Jacques’ suggestion might have been the way to go in this instance. BUT, I tried dual-partitioning a 20 GB Firewire drive with one partition (Mac OS Extended) and the 2nd partition as MS-DOS File System. Both partitions then mount and are accessible under OS X (10.4.11) on an 800 MHz G3 iBook. However, upon reboot to OS 9 drive partition on the same iBook… only the MS-DOS partition mounts [as a Macintosh PC Exchange (MS-DOS) drive].

And mind you, this sort of formatting is not possible under OS 9’s Drive Setup AND it reports the FW drive itself as unsupported. SO ya gotta use OS 10.4’s (or later) Disk Utility for formatting under this scenario.

Now, attempts at mounting this same FW drive - formatted as above, on an actual G3 Blue & White are even more odd. Without the help of Hard Disk SpeedTools v3.6 installed on my B&W G3 (running OS 9.2.2)… the FW drive would not mount at all AND Drive Setup there reports the FW drive as a SCSI Type. (Think that Petros90’s B&W has the Rev. 2 mobo with the updated ATA chip, whereas mine does not.)

Oh, but it gets better. (NOT)

I then formatted the entire 20 GB FW drive as MS-DOS using the option of Master Boot Record under OS 10.4’s Disk Utility on the iBook. Transferred downstairs to the B&W and while it recognized it with Hard Disk SpeedTools - it reported it as unreadable and an attempt to then Initialize it to ProDOS - it then reported that this was not possible.

Grrrrrr!

As I’ve said, I’ve tried numerous approaches and mixtures of partitions and partition option types, ranging from GUID, APM and MBR - all to no avail. So it seems that this route (at least from the Mac end) is fruitless. MAYBE if the FW drive was formatted on a Windows-based machine AND THEN connected to the B&W, the results MIGHT be different, usable(?). But I’ve no Firewire-equipped Windows machine here for such an extended, further adventure.

Maybe ethernet / FTP is THE way to go?

And I understand that Petros90 is now looking at Quicksilvers and MDDs for possible purchase?

Godspeed indeed!

[IIO]

re:firewire

we all know these situations where something doesnt work though it "should".

but in fact, oh sorry... let me be precise... in theory any machine with built-in firewire and OS 8.1 or PCI-attached firewire and OS 8.6 should work out of the box with any firewire drive.
as long as the firewire controller knows how to handle the disk, one should be able to apply abritrary formatting and use the volumes in OSX and OS9.


2)
there are about 45 SSDs in our list and until now only the evo 850 did not work.

5)
technically impossible and harmful. if you ever run into something which mixes and matches usb and firewire, ignore it. it is for cameras only and it is against the specs.

8 )
the majority of fw IDE enclosures has the 137 gb limit, the majority of fw SATA enclosures have a 2, 3 or 8 TB limit, which is enough to match to Mac OS9´s 2.2 TB limit.

in both cases you can also install and format disks bigger than that, the "unreadable" space will just not be used.

you can use firewire 800 enclosures, too. i was a bit afraid in the beginning, but by now my whole HD rig runs with fw 800 cables.

How can a 400MHz single core be so ... snappy?

i´ve recently heard from a person who had trouble cutting videos on his M1 mini, because his whatsapp client in background was already using 3 of the 8 of RAM, and the OS another 2.

same goes for the number of active processes in macos 11 or windows 11.

the relations were somehow better 20 years ago me thinks.

[Syntho]

Get a Synology NAS. It has AFP and SMB compatible file storage out of the box. Connect to it via the Chooser, upload your files, then connect to it from any other PC/Mac. It is by far the best way.

[FBz]

Thanks IIO!

“…we all know these situations where something doesn’t work though it "should”.”

“Apple first included onboard FireWire in some of its 1999 Macintosh models (though it had been a build-to-order option on some models since 1997).”

Not too long after the introduction of OS X is when I turned off all the Macs here. After installing OS X right over (with) OS 9 on my B&W - and without partitioning my single, internal HD. Apple had instructed that this was a-okay.

Well, it wasn’t. Not here anyway. Crashes and freezes galore and with me under damned tight production schedules. AND I’d never depended upon firewire for anything else other than sending image files to a large format printer. The once rock-solid and stable G3 machine here was no more. It was networked with other Macs here and I didn’t use external Firewire drives, period.

Kept this B&W around here, perhaps out of nostalgia and for all the time I spent working with it and all of the work that I once actually accomplished with it… all those years ago. A few years back, I two-partitioned it’s HD and installed OS 9.2.2 on one partition and OS 10.4 on the other. It’s now only occasionally booted to help with questions and problems that others may encounter, using a B&W.

And now (after a little mental break yesterday) the only answer and stop-gap workaround I can think of in this situation*… is maybe for Petros90 to go the dual-boot route. Using an bootable install of OS X on a second partition, where he could then transfer files destined for the Windows machine to that partition. [From the OS 9 partition to the OS X partition …where the machine recognizes both the Mac AND the MS-DOS formatted and partitioned Firewire drive.]

*outside of getting a newer (QS /MDD) Mac - OR the ethernet / FTP route.

Was also waiting to hear from Syntho… for a workable solution, sans the dual-boot.

Thanks!

[Syntho]

Years back on this forum I posted about a similar situation in that I wanted a backup drive that I could bring to and fro. I got some external SCSI enclosures and the rest is history. But I also want some QUICK transfers, and with an external drive, you have to physically bring it back and forth. I still use my SCSI drives for backing up, but I eventually bit the bullet and bought a Synology NAS.

Here are but some of the benefits of a NAS:

- true AFP storage. Files can be uploaded as-is without binning/sit'ing. Files never lose their icon/creator/type. It's just like an external drive.
- can be used with System 7 and any OS above that, plus any windows machine. SMB compatible. Upload from your OS9 machine, open the network folder on a Windows machine and there you go.
- it backs up your files across multiple hard drives via RAID for posterity and integrity.
- is quite fast. Only your hard drive and network card will limit how fast the transfers are.
- can be accessed from a Mac with an AirPort card. Nice for G3/G4 laptops.

I use primarily 9600 machines with System 7. It works absolutely flawlessly once it's set up right. The only problem with it is price. It was like 700USD, plus 4 hard drives totalling about 1100USD. However, once you see what it can do, and the extras you get, you'll be sold. My whole studio and office (with modern computers) are connected to it for backups. It has things on it you don't even know you want yet.

I'm glad I shelled out for it. It's saved my ass many times. All audio transfers, midi backups etc go on the NAS for transferring to another Mac. Plus, I use the Apple Restore software for backing up my installations and I upload them onto the NAS.

Just do it. You'll never look back and wish you'd have done it earlier.

[IIO]

AND I’d never depended upon firewire for anything else other than sending image files to a large format printer.

when done right (this mainly applies to vendors, not end users) firewire is the most trouble free thing you can have.

(the only thing it does not help to is the application to use it to transfer files between mac and PC, that is still best done with either an NAS disk or - for very small files - a portable USB stick)

also, in a pure gigabit network the trasfer speed is twice a high as with firewire 400.

its main advantage otoh is that you can use multiple devices with only one port. i have 16 HDs and 3 optical drives connected to port #1 and 4 audio interfaces connected at port #2.
i also have a spare PCI card for firewire, but you dont even need that if you only do 2 different things with fw.

using network to transfer files directly (as opposed to NAS disks), like you did, is of course the third option.

you can get an industry standard managed switch with gigabit for 10-25 USD and then you can connect 23 computers and your WAN to each other and use every service you wish.

as soon as a 100mbit ethernet computer plays an important role in transporting files, network is pretty slow there though. but it might still be okay even to exchange a 40 track audio project with 9mb/s once a week.

however, IMHO anything releated to eSATA or SCSI seems only overexpensive - and is full of limits.

Using an bootable install of OS X on a second partition, where he could then transfer files destined for the Windows machine to that partition.

like i always say: OSX PPC sucks to work with - but it is an essential utility to extend your OS9 computer.^^

(many things i have to move from win to G4 requires unrar and disk image mounter, others require to convert weird audio file formats, that stuff needs OSX anyway. renaming and sorting is more fun in OS9 then.)

[OS923]

I use something like this:
https://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=31389

Connect to Mac with FW400. Connect to PC with USB 2.

I format as one FAT32 partition on Mac or I use MacDrive 9 on XP to create multiple partitions.

The main problem is: do you want to keep your resource forks, and what about all those invisible files that are created by PC on a Mac partition or by Mac on a Windows partition?

I make Toast images on Mac that I mount read-only on PC. I make ISO images on PC (with UltraISO) that I mount read-only on Mac.

It’s also possible to create disk images in Universal Disk Format on Mac and they can be mounted read-only on PC.

Toast images can be edited on Mac and PC using MacDrive. ISO images can be edited on PC using UltraISO. Universal Disk Format images can be edited on Mac using Disk Copy.

[OS923]

Here's the documentation of my external HD.

[Petros90]

Thanks for the info, everyone.
Please remember that I haven't used OS9 seriously since 2002. So some of this will be baby-babble to many.

Story so far -
NAS -
looks like overkill for me. Expensive, and there's the issue of setting it up,
way outside my comfort zone.
I appreciate that there are are still serious users of OS9 and I understand that for serious purposes this is the best way to go.

Ethernet -
So far ethernet has been unsuccessful. I don't know what I'm doing.
I'm used to connecting automatically in Win10.
Reading about TCP/IP, DHCP and subnet masks has literally given me a migraine.
There is a thread on here, "step-by-step guide" to this, I got lost in the first para.
There is a wireless router-based home network here which also connects to a PC,
three x 18" thick walls away through the ring main, tried that but don't know how
to configure, gave up. (Headache.)

Installing OSX Jaguar -
seems could be part of the way forward, but it appears that installing it on
another drive to ensure smooth running is a requirement. So I'd have to install
another drive, obtain OSX ... probably downloadable from this site.
I have a 120 GB SSD and a StarTech PCI to SATA card bought three years ago, this was probably my intention.
I intend to try this in the coming week. (More research.)

External FW/USB 2 drives -
well I ignored IIO's advice (sorry IIO) and via ebay bought two external USB2 / FW drives.
An Iomega 320GB designed to complement the Mac Mini, and a LaCie 200GB.

Now then, formatting. In OS9 we have a choice of Mac OS extended, Mac OS standard and DOS. DOS is a dead end surely.
So OS9 is no good for formatting FAT32.
In Windows, a choice of NTFS or exFAT. (I've proved to my own satisfaction that none of these work cross-platform.)
I've already proved by using a 16GB USB memory stick that FAT32 works cross-platform. So what I need is FAT32.

Win XP won't format FAT32, but I recall Win 2000 did, and I have one old PC running Win2K I will resurrect.
BUT there are TWO issues -

1) Windows Disk Format can't format FAT32 larger that 32GB (ed. just read this can be overcome:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_Allocation_Table
There's also a third party utility -
http://fat32format.sharewarejunction.com/)

2) more seriously the FAT32  file size limit is 4GB, there's no way to overcome this, and that is annoying, since a miniDV tape
is nearly 12GB. Although, realistically, am I actually going to export/render miniDV-based movies larger than 4GB for
uploading to the interweb?
And. I'm not sure how relevant this is for audio production.

3) (Fetch the Comfy Chair) Resource Forks. Answer = Archive, apparently. I don't appear to have Stuffit, only the expander.
Strange as I thought this was included in the OS - 9.2.2. I'm Wrong, again.
I think this is a Red Herring. I now have two large external drives, I'll format one for Mac only. The other can be the Exchange Mechanism.
Actually, the easiest way is just to go sod it, I'll do an Overnight Copy to the memory stick. Like we used to do an Overnight Render in the Olden Days.
Even easier, install a PCIe Firewire card in the new-ish PC

4) re. Fire Wire drive limit issues - doesn't seem to be a problem on the G3 with either drive, both see the max.

Finally. Those (a small but valued cohort) who have been following my crazed ambition may be mildly amused by a video I made a while back on the very machine I'm trying to drag into the 21st Century, 21 years ago -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZ1_04GvpSA&t=4s

The band has taken up a lot of time I shoulda been spending on OS9. Must try harder. Here's a take on Route 66 -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZO69nvm8Zo&t=114s

[IIO]

Reading about TCP/IP, DHCP and subnet masks has literally given me a migraine.

the process (of entering 3-4 numbers) is the same in all OS.

the usual "problem" with MacOS9 is that the organisation is a bit different; there is no "multiple enviroments settings" available right in the panel, but only one.

otherwise you select "ethernet" as port, "DHCP with fixed adress" as method, and 255.255.252.0 as mask, just like in windows or unix.

So OS9 is no good for formatting FAT32.

yeah, it can read those, but not format.

i use OSX, but i am pretty sure there are also free tools for windows 10 which do this. maybe it is somewhere hidden in the formatting app already.

and I have one old PC running Win2K I will resurrect.

if i remember right, even windows 7.

1) Windows Disk Format can't format FAT32 larger that 32GB

oh.

I don't appear to have Stuffit, only the expander.

...contextmenu?


the easiest way how to exchange files regulary still seems to be client/server software, i.e. http, ftp, hotline, you name it.

[OS923]

PM me if you would like to try MacDrive on your XP computer.

[FBz]

After review of the University project https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZ1_04GvpSA&t=4s just imagine what else might now be possible… after arriving at an “updated” and workable solution.

There are smaller, less-expensive NAS devices perhaps better suited for the minimum (2) [Windows + Mac] machine scenario in this case - BUT a grasp & implementation of the network setup is again necessary.

And if the wireless router has wired ethernet connection ports too (most do) then try “hard wiring” (to it) with ethernet cable. Perhaps easier setup than one might think going this way.


Now, back to OS X… and you don’t have to install another drive. (But it might be nice.)
And you can get Jaguar from the Garden along with all its’ updates. https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/mac-osx-mac-os-10-ppc


If squeamish about reformatting and dual-partitioning the onboard HD already in the B&W to allow for a 2nd partition (on which a bootable OS X might reside) AND you’ve not installed a 2nd HD inside of the B&W… THEN back up your entire, current internal HD to one of the FW drives and then either reformat, dual-partition and re-install a fresh OS 9.2.2 on one partition and a bootable OS X on the other partition, on that single internal B&W drive.  OR again,  install a 2nd Drive on which a bootable OS X (Jaguar) can reside.

One way or another, if you’re not successful or comfortable with the ethernet / network / NAS approaches… you’re going to have to have a bootable version of OS X in order to format one of the Firewire drives to MS-DOS / FAT32 to use it for “sneaker net” file transfers from one machine to the other (without ethernet).

ALSO you might have your internet service provider (or one of their techs / or some other tech-savvy local individual) visit and set up your machines via the wireless router… hard wired. Might cost you a service call fee or nothing at all. BUT then again, you might be able to stop pulling your hair out and/or worrying with all of these possible solutions that are providing headaches. And you might also have to purchase a low-cost ethernet hub for this but call your ISP and explain that you’re trying to get both machines networked and connected. Still altogether, likely less expensive than a night (or two) out.
Anyone in the south of England here, mind making a house call?

ERRATA…
Lots of very good, possible, workable solutions in this thread.

Ahh, archives. Personally I’m intrigued by the NAS solution. Although $700.00 seems a bit pricey between only two machines. *There are lesser cost, smaller NAS alternatives (for under $200.00?) that even I might consider for all of the numerous Macs here. (Whole lotta files scattered over too many machines and various media types here.)

“or I use MacDrive 9 on XP to create multiple partitions.”  - OS932

PM OS932 about his offer and maybe give that a try?

[IIO]

second hand NAS should not be much more expensive than (other) good quality enclosures.

if you dont need built-in torrent client or a second ethernet port and fancy stuff like that, it should start around 25 bucks.

[OS923]

https://tinyurl.com/md20211006

Installation:

1. Disable internet connection.
2. Run the installer.
3. It will restart.
4. It will show a dialog to register, then cancel.
5. Stop the MacDrive services.
6. Copy cracked dll to C:\Program Files\Common Files\Mediafour
7. Restart.
8. Register.
9. Input serial MX9EW-U4567-8900X-YZAB9, and choose "I have no connection to the Internet".
10. Input activation code WWWWWRWW-WWWRWWWW-WRWWWWWR.

This works on XP. I tried it on W10 but it failed.

[DieHard]

https://tinyurl.com/md20211006

Installation:

1. Disable internet connection.
2. Run the installer.
3. It will restart.
4. It will show a dialog to register, then cancel.
5. Stop the MacDrive services.
6. Copy cracked dll to C:\Program Files\Common Files\Mediafour
7. Restart.
8. Register.
9. Input serial MX9EW-U4567-8900X-YZAB9, and choose "I have no connection to the Internet".
10. Input activation code WWWWWRWW-WWWRWWWW-WRWWWWWR.

This works on XP. I tried it on W10 but it failed.

Failed on Win 7 Pro 64-Bit

Internet Disconnected, service stopped,
and made the assumption to copy the the single DLL file under "Cracked\x64" to C:\Program Files\Common Files\Mediafour
Hope that was correct

Did nothing with the DLL under x86 (I assumed it was for a 32-bit XP or Win7 32-bit)

[OS923]

Can you be a bit more specific about "failed". What failed? Did the installer fail? Did the control panel open? Did it say "expired" or "not registered"?

I saw this work only on XP, but here they claim that it should work even on Windows 10: https://macbold.com/macdrive-pro-full-crack-free-download4t5/

The following step is not necessary on XP, maybe it is on later systems:

Step 2: change the host file

Access C:\Windows\System32\Drivers\etc, open hosts file and add this line
127.0.0.1 act2.mediafour.com

[IIO]

if only the pathing of the installer app fails, we could assemble a symlink installer.