Author Topic: Major issues with QuickTime  (Read 1355 times)

Offline Y2K

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Major issues with QuickTime
« on: July 11, 2021, 10:25:34 AM »
I've just joined the OS9 crowd with a blueberry clamshell.
It's not my first pre-OSX machine, but it is my first 9. So in that sense OS9 has a lot of new stuff that I never knew of, and, because back in the day I was merely using a closed system that just had all the software that it did, I'm very unfamiliar with the aspect of managing the actual system or installing new stuff to a non-OSX system.

So – as you do – I've been downloading all the interesting abandonware after installing the fresh OS9lives version of Mac OS 9.2.2. Things were going well, until I think a Photoshop installation changed things.
I installed Photoshop 4 first, and then Photoshop 6 from an upgrade, I don't think there were any standalone versions around. I'm not sure if it would've been enough to just run the PS6 upgrade installer and mount the PS4 disc rather than installing PS4 first, but well, that's done, and Photoshop 6 worked in the end. But this Photoshop process somehow messed up my Quicktime installation because then I started getting the following stream of nags on startup:
- QuickTime MPEG Extension did not load. It requires QuickTime 6.0.2 or later.
- QuickTime PowerPlug installation failed because the versions of QuickTime and QuickTime PowerPlug do not match.
- QuickTime VR installation failed because it requires QuickTime version 6.0 or newer.

After a few restarts, the nags don't appear anymore but I don't think anything's been fixed, because the other symptoms that appeared at the time of those nags still persist. Going to Control Panels > QuickTime settings, I get "the control panel QuickTime Settings can not be used on this Machine". I assume that the machine is now behaving as if there was no version of QuickTime installed at all, yet I the QuickTime folder in Applications is in place, and I see a bunch of QuickTime extensions in the Extensions folder. +i on the QuickTime application itself says that it is 6.0.2 as it should be.
During some installation, something has created a folder called "DeInstalled QuickTime" to my hard drive, and it contains another QuickTime 6.0.2 extension. Swapping the places of those extensions and restarting doesn't make any difference.

These are some of the other behaviours that appeared at the same time, which I've noticed:

- Desktop picture is gone (it was still the default one before installing Photoshop) and I can only use tiled or solid color backgrounds.
- Windows no longer collapse when double-clicking the title bar.
- If I try to launch iTunes 1.1 (I have launched it before this issue just fine), it says that I "must have QuickTime 3 or newer to launch iTunes".

Now if I've downloaded QuickTime 6 in order to reinstall it, but now StuffitExpander is refusing to unpack the .sit file because it "requires Quicktime 6 or newer"!

Well then I'm taking the same Stuffit installers from the USB stick that I brought them in, again. But trying to run two different installers, neither one launches due to "error -39", whatever that is. I was able to run these types of installers before.
Double-clicking the already installed Stuffit Expander says that it "could not be opened because InterfaceLib--GetComponentResource could not be found" and that you "may need to install a newer version of InterfaceLib--GetComponentResource".

Finally, I was about to post this directly from the clamshell but suddenly even "the application Classilla could not be opened because QuickTimeLib could not be found", even though I was running it earlier today.
Earlier, I had moved extensions that I had deemed unnecessary, to the disabled folder, because at some point I got a nag suggesting that I might want to consider disabling some extensions. Now they're all back in the extensions folder but the machine just isn't having any of this.

Suddenly it feels like I can't move into any direction. Is this a known issue, and how should I proceed?  :(
« Last Edit: July 11, 2021, 10:47:02 AM by Y2K »

Offline Mat

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Re: Major issues with QuickTime
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2021, 12:01:23 PM »
Sounds like if your PS4 installed QT 3 over QT6 from 9.2.2? d suggest to boot with completely disabled extensions (shift). Open then the extensions on/off Control Panel manually, and sort the extensions by packages. Try to locate all the QT stuff, and move it away or uninstall it directly.
Never heard of Stuffit needing QT6, ... if so, get an old stuffit to unstuff QT 6 and reinstall it.

If everything failes, you might go back to a clean 9.2.2 installation. BTW, if you do not need 9.2.2, 9.1 might be a better option for slower machines, and a lot more stable. A tip for avoiding extensions and control panel confusions: if you installed a new OS mark all your extensions and control panels and give them a lable colour. So you will see forever what belonged to the original OS and is stable and what was installed later by applications or at any later time.
Also, most installers have a "advanced" option so that you can select if QT or other stuff shall be installed. Of course I do not remember about Photoshop 4, …

Offline IIO

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Re: Major issues with QuickTime
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2021, 12:03:40 PM »
that is because photoshop doesnt ask when overwriting the files in the system folder.

the exact same issue same happens far more often with games, where quicktime, sound, game sprockets and Q3D are replaced when you install OS8 programs in 9.2.2. your newer files got overwritten and you only notice the other day by nonworking apps.

i think you should be able to fix the current issue by simply installing the latest quicktime 6 for OS9 - a strongly recommended update to the OS anyway.

after you did this, keep the QT 6 installer somewhere near in case you need it again. ;)
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Offline IIO

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Re: Major issues with QuickTime
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2021, 12:11:22 PM »
i am not on my mac, could you send him QT6 unstuffed, mat?
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Offline Mat

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Re: Major issues with QuickTime
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2021, 12:16:34 PM »
In German, that might not be a big help ;)

But the 4th download here http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/quicktime-6x , the "smi.bin" version should work without problems!

Offline IIO

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Re: Major issues with QuickTime
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2021, 12:36:21 PM »
but you nailed with "QT3" - this kind of "downgrade" is exactly bringing that "missing library" error message he got. with v4 vs v5 there are not such massive problems.
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Offline Mat

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Re: Major issues with QuickTime
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2021, 12:42:36 PM »
but you nailed with "QT3" - this kind of "downgrade" is exactly bringing that "missing library" error message he got. with v4 vs v5 there are not such massive problems.
?? I do not understand. I posted the linkt to 6.03, not to 3, …

Offline Y2K

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Re: Major issues with QuickTime
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2021, 01:31:48 PM »
Sounds like if your PS4 installed QT 3 over QT6 from 9.2.2?

It's more like, the machine just seems to think that there is no QuickTime installed at all: Trying to launch iTunes, it said "must have QuickTime 3 or newer to launch iTunes". When I go to the QuickTime extension or application and show the info window, it definitely says 6.0.2 so it's not an earlier version, it just goes unnoticed for some reason.
If I went to Extensions Manager, it showed all the QuickTime extensions except for the one called just QuickTime. Not sure if it's supposed to not show up, but it's weird because that extension exists in the actual folder.

A tip for avoiding extensions and control panel confusions: if you installed a new OS mark all your extensions and control panels and give them a lable colour.
Yeah, that was definitely a great tip, I just realized that when it was already too late, I had already installed several things that most likely did install extensions too...

Open then the extensions on/off Control Panel manually, and sort the extensions by packages.

QuickTime and QuickTime PowerPlug are both 6.0.3 while QuickTime MPEG Extension, QuicKTime Musical Instruments and QuickTime VR are all 6.0.2. Does that matter? This is after removing all QuickTime files and reinstalling them...

the "smi.bin" version should work without problems!

I'm not able to open .bin files because trying to run Stuffit after installing Photoshop gives "error -39".
I had to unpack it in OSX, after which I could open the .smi installer!
It installed QuickTime, but when I restarted, it nagged "QuickTime installation failed because it was already installed", but controversially still opened up a QuickTime Settings wizard (which would not open at all before this).
I thought it had fixed itself, but it hadn't really.
Trying to launch Classilla, it could now launch without an error message, but got stuck in splash screen... So something's afoot, still.

I noticed that the .smi contains a way to uninstall QuickTime, so I did that.
It says: "The uninstall was successful. However, some files/folders could not be deleted because they are shared by other applications, are currently in use, or contain files not installed by this install program."
I deleted the QuickTime folder from Applications (it only contained a file called QuickTime that didn't have an icon), and I moved out an extension called QuickTime, same thing. I left a QuickTime iTunes extension because I believe QuickTime installation itself
can't create that, I would have to reinstall iTunes.

The post-install restart resulted to no nags, but I'm still having issues:
- Classilla starts but gets stuck at splash screen "creating first window..."
- Trying to start up iTunes, this time it says "TextEncodingConverter" could not be found."
- Trying to unpack .bin files with Stuffit Expander, its error message is still "error -39".

The improvements were:
- Surprisingly, Audion 3 launches normally even though previously it wouldn't.
- I regained the ability to use a theme with a desktop picture rather than a tiled pattern for a wallpaper. Previously, after Photoshop installation, I could only use patterns and solid colors.


Now when I launch Extensions Manager, QuickTime is finally there, but now it says that there are missing extensions. It saved a list of missing extensions as a text file to the desktop, and it has some QuickDraw 3D ones, and Apple QD3D things. Fearing for the worst, now if I try to launch Bryce 4, I get a frame title but the application doesn't launch, and I can't get out of this state... That's a new one, but yeah, great. I wonder why those extensions got removed? I ran the QuickTime uninstaller, yet...

Offline IIO

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Re: Major issues with QuickTime
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2021, 01:48:25 PM »
TextEncodingConverter is not at all releated to quicktime and i dont think photoshop would delete it. ;)

do you eventually have multiple OS9 system folders and mixed them up?
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Offline Y2K

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Re: Major issues with QuickTime
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2021, 02:41:56 PM »
TextEncodingConverter is not at all releated to quicktime and i dont think photoshop would delete it. ;)

do you eventually have multiple OS9 system folders and mixed them up?

But why is that message happening? I could open iTunes before I installed Photoshop, and I've been troubleshooting this ever since.

Is it possible to have multiple system folders? When I got the clamshell less than a week ago, I downloaded the 9.2.2 image from MacOs9Lives, burned it to a CD, and did a fresh install because the OS it came with was in a language I didn't prefer. Since installing the OS, I've been installing software, either by running the supplied installers or by dragging applications directly to the Applications folder.

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Re: Major issues with QuickTime
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2021, 01:08:20 AM »
Yes, it is possible to have multiple system folders and yes, that would confuse the Mac and can cause all kind of problems. So check if there's more than one.

I too think it's an issue of an extension being overwritten with an older version. A good utility to keep around is Extensions Overload. It's a tool that shows you what Extensions (and Control Panels etc.) are installed on your system, what they do and lets you deactivate them. That's a good way to test and find "the culprit" causing trouble.

As a general rule, it's a good idea to keep a copy of your freshly installed and once setup System Folder around. Unlike modern OS, you can just copy the folder onto e.g. an external HDD and once you need it again, copy it back. Not that I much needed to do that in 30 years of using Mac OS, but it sure would help in your case.

That said, since you're new to Mac OS 9 - it's a great OS that gives you great power over it. That also means you can easily break stuff when you're doing something wrong. Don't despair though - you'll learn how to treat the old lady and eventually come to love the power it gives you :-)
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Offline IIO

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Re: Major issues with QuickTime
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2021, 01:41:35 PM »
But why is that message happening?

probably because textencoding converter is missing from your systemfolder and the app needs it.

i just wonder how it can get lost by a PS 4 installation.

otoh, adobe also managed to cause data loss with some PS update for windows in 2020. maybe they are simply idiots.

Quote
Is it possible to have multiple system folders?

it is totally legit to have one per volume.  (under circumstances it is even recommended to always have a backup and in addition always have a "juvenile" one somewhere to compare stuff to when an issue appears.)

but after a crash or PRAM error then you might end up unnoticed in an other one than you think... and then suddenly your prefs are gone and stuff. :)

and never put 2 system folders in the same partition. only one of them can be found then.

the procedure you described what you have done sounds absolutely okay. it most likely was one of the installers - one which is a few years older than OS9 - which caused this trouble.


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Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: Major issues with QuickTime
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2021, 02:31:31 AM »
I think that the Hard Drive or the memory are rotten. That corruption on the disk happened to me only on G3  B&W rev.1 with  bad memory + bad Drive + faulty battery
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Offline Y2K

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Re: Major issues with QuickTime
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2021, 03:51:03 AM »
You know what, in the end it seemed so messy that I just spent one day reinstalling OS9 and all the software from scratch.
This time, I wrote a precise log of what software I installed, an in what order. I also gathered all the serial numbers to one handy place and documented any possible annoyances, to make reinstalling easier in the future if I need to do it... I also labeled the extensions and things before starting to install anything so I could log what each installation adds, and where.
This time, I installed Photoshop right after Toast and the initial setup, and it didn't mess up the computer. So I went ahead and installed all the other software too. I haven't seen any oddities so far, it's working fine.
The installing order wasn't the only difference here: When Photoshop messed up my system earlier, I was using a Photoshop 4 installation, and then applying a Photoshop 6 upgrade after that. I thought it was a messy way to get Photoshop 6, but at the time I either find any other alternatives, or I was already too overwhelmed by the long lists of different download options of the same thing, that I picked the wrong method. Now I installed Photoshop 6 full version directly, and got no issues. If I understood correctly, this machine could run Photoshop 7 too, but according to comments, it oddly dropped gif support and (I guess) probably isn't significantly different to Photoshop 6 in other ways, so I chose 6.

Yes, it is possible to have multiple system folders and yes, that would confuse the Mac and can cause all kind of problems. So check if there's more than one.

That sounds so strange! But yeah,  I checked before reinstalling the OS and there was just one System folder all along.

I too think it's an issue of an extension being overwritten with an older version. A good utility to keep around is Extensions Overload. It's a tool that shows you what Extensions (and Control Panels etc.) are installed on your system, what they do and lets you deactivate them. That's a good way to test and find "the culprit" causing trouble.
That sounds exactly like what the OS's own Extensions Manager already does. What's the difference?

As a general rule, it's a good idea to keep a copy of your freshly installed and once setup System Folder around. Unlike modern OS, you can just copy the folder onto e.g. an external HDD and once you need it again, copy it back. Not that I much needed to do that in 30 years of using Mac OS, but it sure would help in your case.

Thanks, will do. It's funny because that backup doesn't even take long to do to a USB stick. But I chuckle at the fact that the computer calls it a "cartridge" !
If I were to copy a System Folder backup back, would I have to do that by first booting from the OS9 installation CD, or can I copy it while I'm "logged in" normally?


probably because textencoding converter is missing from your systemfolder and the app needs it.

i just wonder how it can get lost by a PS 4 installation.

otoh, adobe also managed to cause data loss with some PS update for windows in 2020. maybe they are simply idiots.
Yeah, that's the thing... I ask because I don't know what textencoding converter is, and whether it's something that exists in the OS or is an extra component installed by some third-party software.

but after a crash or PRAM error then you might end up unnoticed in an other one than you think... and then suddenly your prefs are gone and stuff. :)
Oh that sounds awful for sure.


I think that the Hard Drive or the memory are rotten. That corruption on the disk happened to me only on G3  B&W rev.1 with  bad memory + bad Drive + faulty battery

I sure hope it isn't that, but taken the computer's age, I'm well aware of the fact that it just might be...
So far, the computer doesn't seem to crash much, and certainly not randomly. It's very responsive and runs smoothly.
However, I can at least confirm that there definitely is an issue with the battery: First of all, the machine won't turn on at all unless plugged in. Secondly, the battery isn't showing any charge when it's plugged in. If I unplug and plug in again and then boot, the clock resets to 1.1.1904. From the Date & Time panel, I've chosen to update the clock from the European Apple server whenever there's a mismatch, but in reality the machine won't update the clock spontaneously, I always have to go to the control panel and manually assign it to fetch that time now. It seems to only lose that time if the computer comes unplugged, but it will keep the time if I merely restart the computer while still plugged in. I'm too much of a novice to tell whether this is a dead battery, a dead capacitor, or both. If it's a dead battery and all it causes is the annoyance with the clock (are there any remedies?) as well as the fact that I can't use the laptop on the go, I can live with that. But if there's something wrong with the capacitor that can cause something to leak and cause damage, then I believe I should be doing research on what to do about it.

While the hard disk noise is surprisingly not the most annoying one out there, I do love it when it stops spinning. After a little bit of research, I've understood that the clamshell is fiendishly hard to open which worries me, but for the sake of the old age of that hard disk, it would probably be a good idea to start considering a new hard disk.
It's got 320MB of RAM, so I guess that can still be upgraded too (and wouldn't hurt in case the RAM is rotting?)
Where, how, and at what cost are of course going to be the big questions...
And, the audio jack seems to be partially faulty too because left channel is only playing very quietly, making it impossible to use headphones with this thing.
(If this is too off-topic by now, I can also start a completely new thread on "what hardware could I renew, and should I")

Offline Pyewacket

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Re: Major issues with QuickTime
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2021, 11:45:19 AM »
Y
While the hard disk noise is surprisingly not the most annoying one out there, I do love it when it stops spinning. After a little bit of research, I've understood that the clamshell is fiendishly hard to open which worries me, but for the sake of the old age of that hard disk, it would probably be a good idea to start considering a new hard disk.

Way back when I replaced the harddrive in a Graphite Clamshell. While taking it apart wasn’t the most fun I’d ever had, putting it back together was more fiendishly annoying <g> It is doable tho so long as you’re patient.
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Offline Mat

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Re: Major issues with QuickTime
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2021, 02:09:34 PM »
You know what, in the end it seemed so messy that I just spent one day reinstalling OS9 and all the software from scratch.
(…)
This time, (…) I haven't seen any oddities so far, it's working fine.
Good decision in my opinion. Great that everything seems to work well now! Also glad that my tip with labeling helped.

that backup doesn't even take long to do to a USB stick. (…)
If I were to copy a System Folder backup back, would I have to do that by first booting from the OS9 installation CD, or can I copy it while I'm "logged in" normally?
As Mac OS 9 USB is just 1.1 and you are talking about being "logged in" I suspect you are talking about Mac OS X? So not do that! You will run into problems when copying OS 9 OS stuff, espceially OS part around with X! Please keep 9 and X at different machines, else you will run into troubles and blaim 9 again for it. I am asking myselve if your recent problems may be connected to some X?

In general 9 is quite docile. You can simply copy the OS files from one volume to any other and it will work. It will boot from every mass storage you can imagine, be it ZIP drives, CDs, HDs or even Floppys (well older Systems like 6 that fit to a Floppy). So you can for example copy a 2nd system folder to any HD (even from the network), and select it as boot folder. Just follow the advice above and do not keep several system folders at the same partition as long as you are not 100% sure to know what you are doing.

Offline Y2K

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Re: Major issues with QuickTime
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2021, 06:46:35 AM »
As Mac OS 9 USB is just 1.1 and you are talking about being "logged in" I suspect you are talking about Mac OS X? So not do that! You will run into problems when copying OS 9 OS stuff, espceially OS part around with X! Please keep 9 and X at different machines, else you will run into troubles and blaim 9 again for it. I am asking myselve if your recent problems may be connected to some X?

Oh well "logged in" was the wrong term, hence the quotation marks. What I mean is, "in your usual desktop"; Because I noticed that if I boot from the installation CD, you're not quite "in the usual place", but you're seeing a different desktop. What's the right term for referring to your usual native desktop? I guess there are no multiple accounts in an OS9 machine like there are in OSX where actual logging in comes to the picture in its true meaning.

So no, I'm not talking about Mac OS X, this thread is all about the 9. I've got my iMac G4 serving all my early OSX PPC needs; It lost its classic support when I upgraded to Leopard upon learning that it would then support magic mouse's scroll. Classic was just a curiosity anyway and it was far from perfect, but it was a bit disappointing to lose the theoretical ability. As I understood, you can install some early OSX versions to the clamshell too, but it's slow because the machine was pretty much still built for Mac OS 9. I definitely plan to keep this a Mac OS 9 machine all the way, and appreciate it for what it is; I can't justify owning multiple computers if they're not all very distinctively different!

In general 9 is quite docile. You can simply copy the OS files from one volume to any other and it will work. It will boot from every mass storage you can imagine, be it ZIP drives, CDs, HDs or even Floppys (well older Systems like 6 that fit to a Floppy). So you can for example copy a 2nd system folder to any HD (even from the network), and select it as boot folder. Just follow the advice above and do not keep several system folders at the same partition as long as you are not 100% sure to know what you are doing.

Okay, good to know. This is exactly the kind of stuff I missed back in the day because I was just a user, not an admin. But apparently this is one of those things that you assume should be much more complicated; Like learning that the computer used for going to the Moon had much less memory than a modern person's wrist watch!
Honestly, it wouldn't have even occurred to me that it would be possible to have multiple system folders; It's not something that I would spontaneously attempt to do because it sounds like such an obvious conflict. But I'm glad to learn that OS9 is this easy to back up, making it extremely doable. I was under the impression that people back in the day forgot to make backups because it was either not built in, or it was so prohibively slow that people just preferred to trust the technology not to fail.

Way back when I replaced the harddrive in a Graphite Clamshell. While taking it apart wasn’t the most fun I’d ever had, putting it back together was more fiendishly annoying <g> It is doable tho so long as you’re patient.

Was it "too damn many screws" kind of annoying, or "I don't think I can put this back together anymore"kind of annoying?
I have very little experience of opening up computers, but I've done the thicker aluminium iMac hard drive swap which is primarily of the "too damn many scews" variety, and more recently, SSD conversion for iMac G4, which was more "surely this thing just won't be coming out without breaking something" + the extra work of replacing the thermal paste, somethign I hadn't done before. The biggest fear isn't that it's time consuming, but the fear of causing unnecessary wear and tear that wouldn't be there if you hadn't opened it up in the first place.

Offline IIO

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Re: Major issues with QuickTime
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2021, 09:53:33 AM »
Oh well "logged in" was the wrong term, hence the quotation marks. What I mean is, "in your usual desktop"; Because I noticed that if I boot from the installation CD, you're not quite "in the usual place", but you're seeing a different desktop.

yes and no.

because in OS9, there is a desktop folder in every mounted volume, and their content simply gets combined depending on what volumes are mounted.

only the background image and the icon order might shapeshift. :)

But I'm glad to learn that OS9 is this easy to back up, making it extremely doable. I was under the impression that people back in the day forgot to make backups because it was either not built in

the main reason why people didnt know that and didnt made use of it 25 years ago was that on a mac you normally did not create moe than one partition. the saying was "we dont need that like they do it on windows", but of course it is possible and it can have benefits.

in 1997 my system fodler backup went on external discs; then you could boot from SCSI or firewire in an emercency case, and copy your backup back to a new internal disk.

in fact it is super easy to handle OS9 systems, because "the system" actually only consists of the content of this one folder and the PRAM settings, which are an insignificant trifle.

so you can for example create your own system with all the settings and third party add-ons you like and then just copy it onto another computer or make a DVD backup of it.

and of course OS9 will also boot if you rename the system folder. a feature which is very useful when you have multiple system folders.

« Last Edit: July 15, 2021, 10:03:42 AM by IIO »
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Offline Pyewacket

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Re: Major issues with QuickTime
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2021, 11:43:56 AM »

Was it "too damn many screws" kind of annoying, or "I don't think I can put this back together anymore"kind of annoying?
I have very little experience of opening up computers, but I've done the thicker aluminium iMac hard drive swap which is primarily of the "too damn many scews" variety, and more recently, SSD conversion for iMac G4, which was more "surely this thing just won't be coming out without breaking something" + the extra work of replacing the thermal paste, somethign I hadn't done before. The biggest fear isn't that it's time consuming, but the fear of causing unnecessary wear and tear that wouldn't be there if you hadn't opened it up in the first place.

A bit of both actually, with the addition of ‘there’s not a lot of maneuvering room’. Given the snug innards of a laptop I remember it was a bit of a challenge to get things settled in just right so it all fit properly. It was many years ago so I don’t remember details, but I do remember having to redo things a couple of times to get it all closed up again. The good news is that eventually it did fit and the iBook was fine.
Have proudly been a girl geek since before it was a ‘thing’ :)

Offline Mat

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Re: Major issues with QuickTime
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2021, 03:55:50 PM »
Thanks for all your explenations. Now I can set my mind at rest.

What's the right term for referring to your usual native desktop? I guess there are no multiple accounts in an OS9 machine like there are in OSX where actual logging in comes to the picture in its true meaning.
For the records, Mac OS 9 got a "Multiuser Environment"! Personally I never used it, and I do not know anybody who does. But it is as simple usable as everything else of Mac OS 9 if you really would like to give it a try.

About the desktop; IIO explained it quite well. Every mass storage (be it HDs, USB-Sticks, Floppys whatever) has a hidden "Desktop Folder" (in the first layer). There is the information about the things at the desktop like aliases, programs, files and corresponding icons. The boot volume defines the background of the desktop, and all other files get "added" to the desktop when you mount a new volume/mass storage!
The classiness of Mac OS 9 is visible by the fact, that due to the spacial logic, even all windows that are opened plus their sizes and  positions are stored and explicit on every mass storage. Imagine, for complicated projects, you have other mass storage, mount them at a later point and by mounting the media, several folders (from anywher eint he folder hirachy) with the explicit position pop up and you can work in a defined "environment". And that independently from the OS and machine your are on, just stored at the media themselves! A working philosophy that no other OS offers!

BTW, to all, do not forget to rebuild the desktop database on a regular basis, means once a month or similar!

Offline Y2K

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Re: Major issues with QuickTime
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2021, 07:50:24 AM »
Thank Classilla dev for the Composer view that makes replying to everything so much easier :)

because in OS9, there is a desktop folder in every mounted volume, and their content simply gets combined depending on what volumes are mounted.

only the background image and the icon order might shapeshift. :)

Hmm that's interesting... I wonder if that's got something to do with an oddity I came across the other day: I bring downloads to the iBook with the USB stick because browsing through pages and pages of content is franky much easier on a big screen and a scroll wheel. I put the USB drive in, and moved some .sit file to the desktop. I unpacked it and installed the software. I can't remember what exactly happened, but since then, I had that .sit file disappear from the desktop whenever I unmounted USB drive, and reapper whenever I plugged it again! I thought it was really strange because I'm so used to thinking that a USB drive contains everything inside of it like a folder, never outside. Anyway, I deleted that ghost when the USB stick was plugged in so it's gone now. The only somewhat similar thing I've seen in OSX is that if you delete files from a USB stick and unmount it, then empty the trash, that'll only delete the trash that came from the computer's internal hard drive, but the trash from the USB drive will still be in the trash the next time you plug it in. Must be related to stuff that's normally hidden from the user's view.


the main reason why people didnt know that and didnt made use of it 25 years ago was that on a mac you normally did not create moe than one partition. the saying was "we dont need that like they do it on windows", but of course it is possible and it can have benefits.
I actually didn't see the obvious reason for it until SSDs: You wanted your OS onto the SSD, but couldn't afford it for storage. And well, the necessity of partitions are obvious if you need to install multiple systems onto the same machine, or you need to keep stuff apart for security reasons. But it strikes me as quite modern: Hard disk space was very expensive for quite a long time! I know a person who boasts about the time when he bought an iPod to use as an external hard drive because it was cheaper than buying an external hard drive that's actually sold as such!

in fact it is super easy to handle OS9 systems, because "the system" actually only consists of the content of this one folder and the PRAM settings, which are an insignificant trifle.
Where are the PRAM settings physically stored, actually? I have all that stuff ahead of my at some point because this iBook is having a clock issue, and it's a bit tedious to sync manually every time I boot up. It's the kind of tedious thing that you might typically automate with Applescript, but I'm yet to look into the Applescript of the OS9 era. I learned Applescript on an Intel machine, I have translated some bits for a PPC OSX (translated, because it's not all identical), so I expect OS9 to also have its slightly different terminology.


A bit of both actually, with the addition of ‘there’s not a lot of maneuvering room’. Given the snug innards of a laptop I remember it was a bit of a challenge to get things settled in just right so it all fit properly.

Ow. Well I hope it's the kind of stuff that doesn't risk causing weak points (cracks) to the main body. I'll definitely look up a lot of step by step articles with images before I even start. Macrumors forums has some experts who've done this a lot. Who's made a nice article with images is another thing.


For the records, Mac OS 9 got a "Multiuser Environment"! Personally I never used it, and I do not know anybody who does. But it is as simple usable as everything else of Mac OS 9 if you really would like to give it a try.
I think I saw it in extensions when disabling everything that didn't sound relevant...

About the desktop … Imagine, for complicated projects, you have other mass storage, mount them at a later point and by mounting the media, several folders (from anywher eint he folder hirachy) with the explicit position pop up and you can work in a defined "environment". And that independently from the OS and machine your are on, just stored at the media themselves! A working philosophy that no other OS offers!
Oh wow. I think I saw that in action somehow (see the beginning of my comment), and also, I couldn't help but notice that if I restart the computer after installing something, it unexpectedly opens all the Finder windows back. But I'd love to see a practical application of using this feature to work on complicated projects.

BTW, to all, do not forget to rebuild the desktop database on a regular basis, means once a month or similar!
What's that? Or alternatively: Are there any handy articles on starting out with OS9 that contain the *bare necessities* of what everyone should know when starting so they don't mess things up? An article that includes this concept. Whenever you're new to something, massive volumes of information are hard to approach because you don't know what of it is absolutely essential to know, and when.

Offline Mat

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Re: Major issues with QuickTime
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2021, 01:47:41 AM »
I had that .sit file disappear from the desktop whenever I unmounted USB drive, and reapper whenever I plugged it again! I thought it was really strange because I'm so used to thinking that a USB drive contains everything inside of it like a folder, never outside.
That's exactly the same feature! When you just move out any file/program from any storage to your desktop, you move it in reality to the desktop folder at your storage, and all these active storage medias desktop folders get displayed at your desktop.

Where are the PRAM settings physically stored, actually?
It is a real RAM (small one) at your mainboard, driven by the battery.

I have all that stuff ahead of my at some point because this iBook is having a clock issue, and it's a bit tedious to sync manually every time I boot up. It's the kind of tedious thing that you might typically automate with Applescript,
Not necessarily. Just go go your Date/time extension and tell your mac to ask the time-server at bootup. But get a well working PRAM battery one day.

Oh wow. I think I saw that in action somehow (see the beginning of my comment), and also, I couldn't help but notice that if I restart the computer after installing something, it unexpectedly opens all the Finder windows back. But I'd love to see a practical application of using this feature to work on complicated projects.
OK, imagine you have a software-translation project with 1000 files (in several subfolders). The quest is that the translated files and the whole folder structure have to have the same names as the original ones. So you need a folder with the original stuff, a folder with the original files still to translate, a folder with the file in progress, a folder with the already translated original files, one folder with the translations already done, and a folder mixed with the done translations and the rest in original, for checking how the translations get displayed.
When you work like me, you like to do it visually, you need that folders opened, but of course you do not like to have them opened all the time, when you are not working on your translations. So you put the stuff to an extra HD that is off usually or at a DVD-RAM. When you like to go on with translations, you mount the HD, the 6 folders pop up, nicely arranged like you work best, and that are all visable (e.g. below your program windows), and you can easily work on where you stopped a few days ago.

What's that? Or alternatively: Are there any handy articles on starting out with OS9 that contain the *bare necessities* of what everyone should know when starting so they don't mess things up?
Hold the keys COMMAND - ALT - P - R at bootup.

Sadly I have no "beginners guide" in English. What you are searching is this pdf, but sadly it is only German. http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2655.msg15924.html#msg15924

We should create something in English, ...

Offline ovalking

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Re: Major issues with QuickTime
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2021, 05:40:39 AM »
Multiple Users in OS9: If you work in a an environment that requires machines to be password protected at boot, you can enable this as an easy way to satisfy that requirement.
I guess most of use here are in the multi-Mac user category rather than multi-user Macs.

Files on the desktop: Just do a File:Get Info to find out where it's really stored.


Offline Y2K

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Re: Major issues with QuickTime
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2021, 02:36:30 PM »
I have all that stuff ahead of my at some point because this iBook is having a clock issue, and it's a bit tedious to sync manually every time I boot up. It's the kind of tedious thing that you might typically automate with Applescript,
Not necessarily. Just go go your Date/time extension and tell your mac to ask the time-server at bootup. But get a well working PRAM battery one day.
I've set it to "automatically, when the system clock is different from the time server" but it doesn't seem to correct the time on its own, I always have to go to Date & Time > Server Options > Set Time Now. And that's tedious. So if there's a way – software or Applescript – to force that sync as I boot, that would be great. For convenience, I plug the ethernet cable in before switching the computer on, so it's not about the lack of connection. I don't see a setting for syncing the time at bootup.

OK, imagine you have a software-translation project with 1000 files …
Thanks for the explanation. Let's see if I find myself needing that feature some day. It's certainly new!

Hold the keys COMMAND - ALT - P - R at bootup.
Oh wow, that sure sounds like something that OS X machines have too. What are the symptoms if this isn't done regularly? I'll have to think of a way to actually remind myself...

Sadly I have no "beginners guide" in English. What you are searching is this pdf, but sadly it is only German.
We should create something in English, ...
Ahh, what a shame indeed. I know several languages, but I've never studied German, other than to know what very specific search terms to use on German eBay :-) So I recognise reams of very odd and specific words but can't follow ordinary sentences. Auto-translators can do a bearable job when translating between Germanic languages (which the De-En pair is) and it's often enough to give you the idea of the contents. On the other hand, it can sometimes reverse meanings completely, and it probably doesn't work very well when translating text with a specialist vocabulary such as computer terminology where it really matters which specific term you use. I mean, it's silly but I'm completely lost if I try to use a computer in my native language, I'm so used to this vocabulary being in English!

If you work in a an environment that requires machines to be password protected at boot, you can enable this as an easy way to satisfy that requirement.
It's hard to imagine a situation where this would be necessary now that these machines are mere collectibles and by far outdated in terms of safety standards. But back then, of course.

Files on the desktop: Just do a File:Get Info to find out where it's really stored.
Right! Yeah, what mostly concerned me about the situation was to be sure that I don't put away something that I think is just unmounting when in reality it's proper deleting.

Offline GaryN

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Re: Major issues with QuickTime
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2021, 06:30:44 PM »
I have all that stuff ahead of my at some point because this iBook is having a clock issue, and it's a bit tedious to sync manually every time I boot up. It's the kind of tedious thing that you might typically automate with Applescript,
Not necessarily. Just go go your Date/time extension and tell your mac to ask the time-server at bootup. But get a well working PRAM battery one day.
I've set it to "automatically, when the system clock is different from the time server" but it doesn't seem to correct the time on its own, I always have to go to Date & Time > Server Options > Set Time Now. And that's tedious. So if there's a way – software or Applescript – to force that sync as I boot, that would be great. For convenience, I plug the ethernet cable in before switching the computer on, so it's not about the lack of connection. I don't see a setting for syncing the time at bootup.

Do you think that may be because the setting is stored in… wait for it....................................... PRAM? ;D

Get a battery!

Offline IIO

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Re: Major issues with QuickTime
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2021, 08:03:42 PM »
What are the symptoms if this isn't done regularly?

you dont need to do that regulary, only when something went wrong and 2 reboots are not enough to fix clock, mouse, or startup volume.

you should also do it when you get a new mac from a stranger and it does not boot.
insert arbitrary signature here

Offline Mat

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Re: Major issues with QuickTime
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2021, 08:35:37 PM »
What are the symptoms if this isn't done regularly?

you dont need to do that regulary, only when something went wrong and 2 reboots are not enough to fix clock, mouse, or startup volume.

you should also do it when you get a new mac from a stranger and it does not boot.

I strongly disagree! When people start to play with their new machines, install a lot of stuff, download tons of files, heavily move things around, and much more, they should rebuild the desktop every few weeks to keep problems away. Also everybody should rebuild the desktop at least every 3 months in my opinion. It doesn't hurt, is done in within a minute and solves a lot of issues instead of "fixing real problems" when the machine is fucked up, …

Offline GaryN

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Re: Major issues with QuickTime
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2021, 11:41:29 PM »
Mat, Mat, Mat……

Read again and you will see I'm talking about why the Date/Time settings are disappearing…

Offline Mat

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Re: Major issues with QuickTime
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2021, 01:59:53 AM »
Gary, it seems you are as confused as I am  :o In fact my posting has nothing to do with you. I did not disagree with you about the PRAM, but with IIO about Rebuilding the Desktop!

But of course IIO is unblameable, as I mixed the shortcuts (as we talked about PRAM as well) and posted the shortcut for clearing the PRAM instead of rebuilding the desktop!  :-[

So, yes, IIO is right, clearing the PRAM (COMMAND - ALT - P - R at bootup) is not necessary on a regular basis!
Rebuilding the Desktop (COMMAND - ALT at bootup), I still suggest to do it every month.

Offline GaryN

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Re: Major issues with QuickTime
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2021, 06:36:35 PM »
Mat, I think you a definitely more confused that I. So much in fact, that you deleted the last part of your post that said "It's up to GaryN to prove how he knows yada yada…"

Jeez…

Offline Mat

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Re: Major issues with QuickTime
« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2021, 10:39:17 PM »
Mat, I think you a definitely more confused that I. So much in fact, that you deleted the last part of your post that said "It's up to GaryN to prove how he knows yada yada…"

Jeez…
Hah!  I' m not!
That was the other thread! http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,5999.msg44838.html#msg44838
 :P

I never delete anything later, without making an "EDIT:" notice.

Offline GaryN

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Re: Major issues with QuickTime
« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2021, 11:34:51 PM »
Ohmigod……

110 + Mat + GaryN = Larry, Curly & Moe

This thread is officially DEAD!

Sorry Mat… I clearly need more coffee.

 


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