Author Topic: Studio Vision ReWire Support in version 4.5?  (Read 5833 times)

supernova777

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Studio Vision ReWire Support in version 4.5?
« on: January 30, 2014, 09:41:13 AM »
Apparently i read (saw) in a japanese pdf on rewire..
http://www.h-resolution.com/pdf/pdf/Live_RW.pdf

theres reference to Studio vision having rewire functionality here
i cant read it but i think its talking about using it with ableton live as a rewire host



Vision DSP/Studio Vision Pro と ReWire
ここでは   Studio   Vision   Pro   4.5.1   を例とした設定手順を記載します。
1.   Studio   Vision   Pro   または   Vision   DSP( 以下まとめて Vision   と表記 ) を起動します。
2.   “Windows” メニューから “Audio   Instruments” からウィンドウを開きます。“Ableton   Live” の項目を表示さ
れるまで画面をスクロールし、必要なバスにチェックをいれて有効にしてください。
Studio   Vision   Pro、Windows メニュー   Studio   Vision   Pro、Audio   Instruments   &   Routings ウィンドウ
3.   “Windows”メニューから“Consoles”から任意の Console を選択し、ミキサーコンソールウィンドウを開きます。
4.   任意のチャンネル   ストリップの入力デバイスのポップアップ   メニュー ( チャンネル表示の一番下 ) から
“Ableton   Live” の出力バスを選択します。

supernova777

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Re: Studio Vision ReWire Support in version 4.5?
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2014, 09:45:14 AM »
http://www.houseofsynth.com/hos-downloads/manuals/Opcode/Opcode-Vision-and-Opcode-Studio-Vision-4.5-Audio-Reference-Manual-1999.pdf

this pdf manual for 4.5 features info on how to use rewire in this version!!!

Quote
Vision now Includes ReWire support. This powerful feature allows audio signals from ReWire compatible applications to be routed directly through Vision's consoles, providing the same sends, plug-ins, and EQs you have access to with any other audio signal in Vision. --Vision & Studio Vision Pro Ñ Audio Reference Manual pg 329

Offline ioguie

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Re: Studio Vision ReWire Support in version 4.5?
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2015, 08:21:14 AM »
Yes.  As it says here[1], you need to use version 1.0.1 of the ReWire extension.

I have used this and it works and it's pretty slick. 

[1] http://vision.agektmr.com/Tips/en/ReWire.html

supernova777

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Re: Studio Vision ReWire Support in version 4.5?
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2015, 06:33:57 AM »
i think a better idea would be to just use a second computer (mdd or pc) with reason running on it.. and wire the midi + audio up to vision and use it just like u would a midi module or synth!!

then u dont have to worry about versions of files etc

just because rewire was very much in its infancy at the time of SVP's death..
easier to sidestep any issues by using its 'tried, tested & true' pure midi / audio connections
and then using vision for what vision does best.. MIDI!

still - i wish i had a copy of the above PDF in english!!
i think theres some important info there in that pdf file.. we need a member who is japanese who can translate!! lol
« Last Edit: May 10, 2015, 07:34:42 AM by chrisNova777 »

Offline GaryN

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Re: Studio Vision ReWire Support in version 4.5?
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2015, 07:00:22 PM »
Yes.  As it says here[1], you need to use version 1.0.1 of the ReWire extension.

I have used this and it works and it's pretty slick. 


Do we have a copy of this anywhere? I really need one.

supernova777

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Re: Studio Vision ReWire Support in version 4.5?
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2015, 01:53:22 AM »
hey garyn,
great comments.. im with you on this one  8)
v1.01 is the same reason rewire version from reason v1.01 program (updated from 1.0) i believe..

the comment is meant to say that even if u have reason 2.0 or 2.5 u must overwrite this file to maintain rewire connection to vision DSP.

rewire is a huge pain in the ass imo tho.. always doesnt behave as i want it to .. except when using live + reason together thats the only place i find rewire performs perfectly.

Offline GaryN

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Re: Studio Vision ReWire Support in version 4.5?
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2015, 03:50:29 PM »
Dammit. I was afraid of that. I'm pulling my few remaining hairs out trying to get the Ugly VSTi wrapper to work with SVP. I've got the MIDI working from SVP over the IAC bus with no problem and the VSTi audio out will play fine through Sound Manager, but I'll be damned if I can get it to go back through SVP's console like a good VST. Using the MAX/MSP extension as described on http://vision.agektmr.com/ - The MAX/MSP outs show up in SVP Audio Instruments and the Ugly selects Rewire for its output, but… nothing but crickets.

Since the history suggests that Vision only likes the very early Rewire, I've tried all I can find but I get the same result. (The extension from Reason 1.0.1 is Rewire 2.0.5-v1.2.5; the MAX one is Rewire 2.2-v1.4).

I'll keep hacking… any bright ideas or leads to someone who has actually made this work would be very much appreciated.

Offline IIO

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Re: Studio Vision ReWire Support in version 4.5?
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2015, 05:43:15 PM »

that wont be of much help, but i will usually recommend against using OMS IAC buses.

it is just not tight and stable enough, not talking of sending controllers, then the issue gets worse.

i use the IAC path sometimes with koblo, and it is a mess.

if you for some reason want to use both, an older sequencer and virtual instruments, you might want to consider to use some cheap placeholder sounds and then export the midi data to use it in a VST host.
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

supernova777

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Re: Studio Vision ReWire Support in version 4.5?
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2015, 06:16:10 PM »
honestly.. skip rewire..

network two computers using real audio cables from an audio interface input to another computers output + route midi output from vision to the other computers midi input..

save your hairs;) lol

or.. learn japanese!
« Last Edit: May 23, 2015, 06:28:54 PM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: Studio Vision ReWire Support in version 4.5?
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2015, 06:25:14 PM »
heres the instructions translated with google translate:

Quote

1. Start the Studio Vision Pro or Vision DSP (hereinafter collectively Vision and notation).
2. Open the window from the "Windows" from the menu "Audio Instruments". Scroll down the screen until you see the item of "Ableton Live", please enable put a check to the required bus.
(image description: Studio Vision Pro, Windows menu Studio Vision Pro, Audio Instruments & Routings window)

3. Select any of the Console from "Consoles" from the "Windows" menu to open the mixer console window.
4. you will select the output bus from the pop-up menu of the input device of any of the channel strip (the bottom of the channel display) "AbletonLive".
5. Vision by setting, to launch the Live When you are ready. If you want to output the audio track on the Live individually, you can set the output bus to the target track.
6. To record the output of Live, select the "Record Monitor" from the "Windows" menu of Vision, to open the window. Select the bus of "Ableton Live" from the pop-up menu of the "Source" in the left side of the screen, you can specify the recording destination audio track (the right side of the screen). If you are to record monitor and turn on the "Thru".


Offline GaryN

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Re: Studio Vision ReWire Support in version 4.5?
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2015, 12:49:50 AM »
Yeah… thanks but I tried all of that. As I said, everything sets up and looks like it's working perfectly. The issue is NOT the IAC - that part's fine - the VSTi audio signal just disappears somewhere in RewireWorld. It's not a deal breaker - I can still get sound out via Sound Manager and loop it back thru my Delta 1010 to SVP so I don't need to use another computer. It would just be nice to successfully get around the "no VSTi in SVP" situation. I had my hopes up with the Ugly Wrapper but…

supernova777

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Re: Studio Vision ReWire Support in version 4.5?
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2015, 03:49:40 AM »
are u sure u are using a version of ugly vsti that supports acting as a rewire slave? i think that ugly was originally meant to be used in combination with the re:Fuse application and requires it .. after some digging i found that rewire slave support was a new feature added in 2005.. (see this thread: http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1370.0) as noted the file versionw ould have to be after 09-16-2005 and even stil.. we are not sure if the os9 version was updated to include this... but u could easily email leigh marble and ask him.. hes a pretty cool guy.. ive spoken to him a few times over email.

either way theres a reason the audio is "Dissappearing in the rewire world" therse usually a reason why.. i just wish that the original developers would better document but the world of software is so dynamic that sometimes the original authors themselves cant imagine every possible way that people will try to use it even!

lets revisit the list of rewire apps circa 2003
http://web.archive.org/web/20031004020509/http://www.propellerheads.se/products/rewire/products.html

according to this chart.. studio vision is a host/mixer rewire application.
i think your problem may be that you are using two of the same type of rewire apps
rather then a host with a slave that connect together properly.

try using an app that is listed as being specifically able to be a "synth application" (slave)
rather then a "mixer application" (host) to connect to SVP.

notice that ableton live (and a few others) can operate as both.
honestly i have to say that ableton live probably might be the only application that u can rewire into SVP that can host VSTI..

MAX/MSP for MacOS is listed as a synth app (slave)

also worth noting is that SVP + Vision DSP do not support "Rewire 2" but only "Rewire 1" so you would definately need to use external MIDI or IAC as the rewire protocol wouldnt be able to handle MIDI communication directly to whatever slave app via the rewire connection itself.

i would try to experiment using Rebirth or Reason and get those working via ReWire into SVP first. Rebirth would be good for testing.

maybe you or someone else could write a more clear guide.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2015, 04:33:05 AM by chrisNova777 »

Offline GaryN

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Re: Studio Vision ReWire Support in version 4.5?
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2015, 09:23:53 PM »
It's Ugly 1.1
This is the one from /vision.agektmr.com/ in Japan that he got from Leigh. It uses the MAX/MSP extension to Rewire to SVP. The Rewire extension and the MAX extension were fetched from Leigh's MAX download - no longer available except from Leigh's old MAX page via the Internet Archive. The two ext files were included with the "MAXPLAY" runtime engine.
Again, following the instructions exactly, all appears to set up and work fine - you can even get the VSTi playing through Sound Manager, just not back into Rewire and SVP - even though all of the choices are there and selected. There's just no sound.

There in NO - repeat NO problem with MIDI on the IAC bus. It recieves MIDI from either Vision or directly from a controller perfectly (It's actually using OMS) and plays whatever VSTi is loaded by the Ugly.

>>As you note, MAX/MSP is a slave synth app - that's why it's used as part of the Ugly

Trying Rebirth to check the pipes is a good idea. I'll try it.
If it doesn't work, as a last resort I'll try emailing Leigh.

Watch this space...

supernova777

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Re: Studio Vision ReWire Support in version 4.5?
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2015, 03:56:56 AM »
https://www.ableton.com/en/help/article/can-i-access-vst-plug-ins-in-live-when-it-is-running-as-rewire-slave-/

this says that Ableton Live cannot play VST plugins when in rewire slave mode.
perhaps this is some type of limitation.. i think only the rewire "mixer application"
can use vst plugins in a rewire scenario.

did u absorb all the info here? --> http://vision.agektmr.com/Tips/en/VSTi.html i guess so.. which pts to http://web.archive.org/web/20040605103830/http://www.refusesoftware.com/freeware.html leigh's 'freeware' page

u know.. rewire isnt worth the hassle for me.. when i have like 5 different macs here... all with audio interfaces + midi interfaces.. its much easier to just plug the midi cable out from MAC1-MIDI OUT to MAC2-MIDI IN and wire MAC2-AUDIO OUT back into MAC1-AUDIO IN
and just rock n rolll.. no worrying about versions or bullshit.. use whatever vst host i feel like on MAC2. (ie: ableton live or cubase vst) and record audio in whatever app i feel like in MAC1. sure it limits me to my audio inteface channels.. and i have to worry about sync, but it tends to be easier then getting rewire to work !! LOL

im sure getting it to work with reason directly would be alot easier
http://vision.agektmr.com/Tips/en/ReWire.html
« Last Edit: May 25, 2015, 04:19:48 AM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: Studio Vision ReWire Support in version 4.5?
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2015, 12:37:02 PM »
not being able to use VSTi plugins in ableton when in rewire mode is ridiculously stupid
because on a PC u can do it with FL Studio...

that makes me angry  >:(

obviously u could work around this by using live normally and saving the audio to an audio track in live and then closing + reopening in rewire... but thats bullshit(totally love live's routing capabilities.. so easy) and anyways this is offtopic! but .. it is relevant in that WE NEED A REWIRE SLAVE THAT CAN LOAD VSTI!!!!!

till then i will continue to use just network midi + audio to another machine the same way i would a midi synth.. seems to be the best way
-not a method for everyone- unless u want a room full of computers + wires.. but .. it works for me;)
« Last Edit: May 25, 2015, 12:57:13 PM by chrisNova777 »

Offline GaryN

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Re: Studio Vision ReWire Support in version 4.5?
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2015, 05:10:56 PM »
https://www.ableton.com/en/help/article/can-i-access-vst-plug-ins-in-live-when-it-is-running-as-rewire-slave-/

this says that Ableton Live cannot play VST plugins when in rewire slave mode.
perhaps this is some type of limitation.. i think only the rewire "mixer application"
can use vst plugins in a rewire scenario.


Right. The Rewire synth / VSTi app is the source and the mixer app is the receiver. Live in slave mode is the source.

Your multi-computer solution is perfectly valid. It's qualifies as a standard "workaround" OR what you do when you finally get to:
"If I had those #%&!! code monkeys that wrote this crap here I'd strangle 'em!"

It does cost you an extra D/A A/D conversion - tolerable if there's no other choice but frustrating nevertheless.

I've already got an "extra" Powerbook sitting here running 10.5 solely to bridge AFP between OS9 and the modern world…

Offline GaryN

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Re: Studio Vision ReWire Support in version 4.5?
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2015, 05:24:55 PM »
NOW… It gets even deeper!

I loaded up Rebirth, letting it do its regular installation. It worked perfectly - first time!

BUT… I lost the MAX/MSP choice in Vision - it just vanished.

I note that the Rebirth install dropped Rewire 1.0 into extensions. So I now had two Rewire libraries. I then tried removing the "new" one just installed, restarting and…
Still no MSP.  SO… trashed Rewire prefs, reinstalled the Ugly VSTi and… same result.

Next step is to trash Vision prefs - which I hate to do since I can't find my basic prefs backup and I'll have to reset ALL my Vision settings, of which there are many.
Lesson here: Don't lose your backups - not even the little ones. Better still, backup your backups!

I DO now have Rewire 1.0 at least - maybe MSP and Vision will like that better when I finally get back to where I was originally.

Stay tuned…

supernova777

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Re: Studio Vision ReWire Support in version 4.5?
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2015, 06:00:41 PM »
as far as i know u need the 1.01 rewire file that i had posted. just overwrite it

but hey..
the point about that ableton live stuff is
i think there is a limitation of rewire that means that only "mixer applications" or "Rewire host" (opened first) can host vst plugins and the "Synth applications" or "rewire slaves" (opened 2nd) cannot..

i dont see why ableton live would disable vsti' in rewire slave mode if it wasnt a limitation of rewire itself.. and im pretty sure that ableton supports rewire v2.0.. Vision only supports rewire v1.0

Quote
Live as ReWire slave | Before starting, please note that when Live is running as a ReWire slave:
-No VST plugins are available.
-It is not possible to use MIDI controllers as native Control Surfaces in Live.
-No physical audio inputs/outputs are available in Live. The ReWire master application is handling the audio interface and the ins/outs. External material can be recorded with the master application only.
-No MIDI outputs are available either. Use the master application to send MIDI notes to your external synthesizers.

i would think that all those behaviours would also be applicable to other apps in rewire slave mode..

i dont see how leigh marbles dinky lil UVI would have surpassed a limitation that still stands TO THIS DAY! in 2015 - ableton live still does not let u use vst plugins in rewire slave mode.




Offline GaryN

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Re: Studio Vision ReWire Support in version 4.5?
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2015, 07:55:05 PM »
Two things:

1) What you're calling Rewire 1.0.1 is actually Reason 1.0.1
Installing Reason also installs the Rewire extension / library v1.25
The version #s are odd: If you Get Info on a Rewire library, you find "Rewire version XX" at the top and a different version # in the info box.
This probably wouldn't be a big deal if there was more than tiny scraps of Rewire documentation to be found, but…

2) I don't really know beans about Live. Evidently there is some useful function to be had from it when slaved to another host app that is unique to it that makes it fine that all ins, outs, controllers and other plugins are operated from that host. Maybe if you want more functions in Rewire then you would have it be the master…?
It would also seem that we're drifting off topic agin'. I don't want you have to yell at yourself…

If there is a way to beat the VSTi in Vision problem, I WILL find it!

Later

supernova777

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Re: Studio Vision ReWire Support in version 4.5?
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2015, 05:00:55 AM »
ableton is one of the fewapps that can be both a mixer + synth app. and also supports vsti thats why i was talkign about it.

yep reason 1.01 contains rewire 1.01, the version of rewire that is the righ tversion for using svp 4.5.1