Ultimate PowerMac G4 (Mac OS 9) Project

[chikorita157]

While I do have a PowerMac G3 B&W I had since 2007 and a Mac mini G4, I want something more powerful mostly to run old games and applications I used back in the 68k and early PowerPC days with System 7 (my first Mac was a Performa 630). Of course, Youtubers have tried to build "ultimate" retro gaming machine to run old games. I want to at least upgrade a Power Mac G4 to run most of the games from the 90s and 2000s.

Yes, I tried to buy a PowerMac G4 Quicksilver thinking it's a dual processor model. It was a lousy 2002 model with a single processor and it doesn't even boot due to a failed hard drive (which described to work) and strange fan noise as if something is in the fan. I ended up forcing a return and getting a full refund. I settled with a PowerMac G4 Mirror Door 2003 model with a single 1.25 GHz PowerPC G4, which is close to a Mac Mini G4. It also have an 80 GB HD, a 64 MB ATi Radeon 9000 Pro, 768 MB of RAM, and an Airport card.

Here are the additional parts I am putting in:
- A PC version ATI Radeon 9000 Pro 128 MB. I originally ordered this for the Quicksilver, but that didn't work out. Still, this card is marginally better than the stock one since it has more video ram and works with dual monitors, which the stock one can't. Besides the Geforce 4 Ti 4600, which is expensive, the Radeon 9000 Pro is the max video card that works on Mac OS 9. Yes, I tried ordering a Mac version of Geforce 4 TI 4600, but apparently the stock is non-existant, which is bound to happen. I will find one, someday.
- ACard 2 Channel SATA Adapter for Mac AEC-6290M - I am trying to get my hands on a Firmtek adapter from the official website, but it seems that the order is not going anywhere (credit card is not charged). I ordered this just in case, which is an adapter that is known to work on Mac OS 9. Yes, it costs $$$, but its better than messing with Firewire and IDE/SATA adapters. I planning to use the 840 Evo 120 GB SSD pulled from a laptop for Mac OS 9 and a Crucial MX300 for Mac OS X Jaguar/Tiger. If I ever get the Firmtek, this adapter is going in the PowerMac G3 B&W. The G3 will eventually get an SSD as I am getting rid of the old hard drives.
- NEC DVD Burner from PowerMac G3 - Since the MDD I am getting only have a Combo Drive, I want to swap drives.
- 512 MB DDR Memory Stick - It's a pull from the Mac mini G4 when I upgrade the RAM to 2 GB. Update: Seller state the computer have 1.75 GB of RAM, so I can swap the 256 MB with the 512 to bring it up to 2 GB.
1 GHz Dual Processor - While it's faster than a single 1.25 GHz, I think it's a good upgrade since it's only $30 ($42 with shipping and tax), and will become beneficial for Mac OS X
Noctua NF-F12 iPPC 3000 PWM - I have this fan lying around when I sold my GTX 1070 a few years back. Originally used as a radiator fan and the ability to push a lot of air is a plus. I want to replace the MDD loud fan with this to see if it's an improvement.


I will be posting further progress here once I have all the parts and the computer.

[sequencers.io]

ACard 2 Channel SATA Adapter for Mac AEC-6290M - I am trying to get my hands on a Firmtek adapter from the official website, but it seems that the order is not going anywhere (credit card is not charged). I ordered this just in case, which is an adapter that is known to work on Mac OS 9. Yes, it costs $$$, but its better than messing with Firewire and IDE/SATA adapters.

Where did you order this from ? Memory4Less? Are they actually fulfilling your order? I've tried ordering from them before (not the SATA card but some RAM for my Libretto 110ct) and while the site said "Available for order" they can't actually fulfill it. I'm not entirely convinced they're not running some sort of cashflow scam by taking people's money for a few days before refunding it.

[chikorita157]

ACard 2 Channel SATA Adapter for Mac AEC-6290M - I am trying to get my hands on a Firmtek adapter from the official website, but it seems that the order is not going anywhere (credit card is not charged). I ordered this just in case, which is an adapter that is known to work on Mac OS 9. Yes, it costs $$$, but its better than messing with Firewire and IDE/SATA adapters.

Where did you order this from ? Memory4Less? Are they actually fulfilling your order? I've tried ordering from them before (not the SATA card but some RAM for my Libretto 110ct) and while the site said "Available for order" they can't actually fulfill it. I'm not entirely convinced they're not running some sort of cashflow scam by taking people's money for a few days before refunding it.

Bought it from CALHOUN TECHNOLOGIES and apparently they had one and shipped it out today.

[sequencers.io]

Awesome! Nice score.

[chikorita157]

All the parts finally came in and of course, the SATA PCI adapter came through. It's a genuine ACARD AEC-4290M Rev 1.1 with a 2005 copyright date. Yes, the card is 15 years old, but it should work for my purposes. I already prepped my SATA SSDs and the computer should arrive tomorrow for my project.

Still waiting for the Firmtek card as the order haven't been updated or charged yet. I read a similar thread that it took almost a whole month. I kind of want this adapter so the SSDs can possibly run faster due to it being PCI-X and probably a 1 TB HD for backups or something. But this will do if it never happens.

Update: Tested the card with the SSD on my PowerMac G3 B&W and it booted into Mac OS 9.2.2 flawlessly along with Mac OS X. The card shows the SSD as a SCSI hard drive.

[chikorita157]

Sadly, after using the machine for two days, it gave up to the ghost since it won't power on. I did a reset of the PMU and reseated the battery, but it didn't work. This is a sign that the PSU kicked the bucket and it needs to be replaced.

I messaged acxelectronics, who fixes PowerMac PSUs for one of the ATX conversion cables he sells. Just want to share that he has the supplies to make the MDD ATX adapters and he will let me know when they become available again. This should be helpful for MDD users who have the PSUs died and want to just use a regular ATX PSU.

I ordered a Seasonic SSP-300SUG PSU, which is small enough to fit and has enough wattage (300 W) to power it. I don't need ADC support since I don't have any of those monitors. But yes, I am going to ask the seller who sell me this MDD to try to get a partial refund for the dead PSU.

[FBz]

No lights or even a brief attempted fan spin-up from the machine now?
If not… there is a fuse inside of the PSU that can be checked / replaced.

Some here have resisted the ATX route, perhaps out of sheer stubbornness.

Andy (at acxelectronics) did offer members a 10% discount on PSU rebuilds.
(Just mention MacOS9Lives and ask 'bout discount.)

And yes, would be quite nice if seller opts for your partial refund.

AND… you did also try to boot with the ACARD removed?

G'luck

[chikorita157]

No lights or even a brief attempted fan spin-up from the machine now?
If not… there is a fuse inside of the PSU that can be checked / replaced.

Some here have resisted the ATX route, perhaps out of sheer stubbornness.

Andy (at acxelectronics) did offer members a 10% discount on PSU rebuilds.
(Just mention MacOS9Lives and ask 'bout discount.)

And yes, would be quite nice if seller opts for your partial refund.

AND… you did also try to boot with the ACARD removed?

G'luck

Actually, nothing happens when I pressed the power button. Maybe it's a fuse, but I don't want to mess with it. It's a Samsung PSU and not an Acbel one.

But I think it's best to do the ATX Mod through an adapter and go for a modern, quality PSU. It's a ticking time bomb anyway.

[FBz]

The AcBels ARE better constructed - especially considering interior layout and accessibility for repair(s). (Samsungs are a nightmare inside.) I take it that it did boot okay for a while, with the ACARD inside? You’ve done some other upgrades too and possibly disturbed that machine in the process?

Please provide pics of your eventual ATX fix for those that might eventually also choose that route. Thanks.

“Ticking Time Bomb?”
Well I'd better get all these MDDs outta here pretty quick!

[chikorita157]

The AcBels ARE better constructed - especially considering interior layout and accessibility for repair(s). (Samsungs are a nightmare inside.) I take it that it did boot okay for a while, with the ACARD inside? You’ve done some other upgrades too and possibly disturbed that machine in the process?

Please provide pics of your eventual ATX fix for those that might eventually also choose that route. Thanks.

“Ticking Time Bomb?”
Well I'd better get all these MDDs outta here pretty quick!

It booted into Mac OS 9 and Jaguar fine and I did test the card in the PowerMac G3. But I did other upgrades to the processor and 128 MB version of the Radeon 9000 Pro and removed the hard drive with the SSDs in place. I think it’s maybe because the computer haven’t been used since 2009.

But I will definitely document the process, but it will probably take a few weeks before I get the system up and running again since I am waiting for a restock on the adapter, although he will message me once stock becomes available.

Also got $50 back for the PSU, so at least it’s something.

[chikorita157]

It took little over two weeks, but Firmtek decided to show signs of life and shipped my order after I contacted them. Yes, it’s for the 4 port SATA to PCI-X card I want because of the increased bandwidth. I have to wait until I get the ATX conversion adapter or decide to fix the PSU instead to see how much an improvement it is. Either way, I moved the ACard adapter back into the PowerMac G3 and installed a 120 GB SSD that contains the cloned partitions of the 30 GB HD. Yep, no more spinning rust

Still, kind of miffed that my G3 is more reliable than the MDD G4. It’s still running it’s original power supply.

I have other plans as well after I replace the PSU, including flashing an NVidia Geforce 4 Ti 4600 since I can’t find a Mac version, but I need to get a cheap AGP capable motherboard and CPU. Maybe another retro computer build since I can reflash the ATI Radeon 9000 Pro and put it in that machine. We’ll see. I managed to buy a Geforce 4 Ti 4600 successfully after searching everywhere and trying to order them, and eventually having my order cancelled since they don't have it in stock when they indicated they did. Need to buy a cheap AGP board, which I plan to build a Windows 98 PC for gaming, eventually.

Also, it seems that it's something with the ACard adapter not liking Tiger as the prohibition sign appears on the G3 with the ADATA SU800 120 GB SSD, but a restart, it boots fine. No problems with Mac OS 9 though, which makes me wonder if this is happening since I haven't installed the driver.

[chikorita157]

Just another update. I found that acxelectronics had a refurbished MDD PSU on sale and ultimately decide to go that route since the ATX mod will only be a little cheaper, but I am not sure about the reliability of I go that route due to the 3.3v and 5v rails max wattage  being a lot less than the original (70w vs 100w).It's going to cost about a little more after sending the dead one back. This seems to be the 400 W model, which is going to run louder, but it shouldn't ending up frying itself. I will use the Seasonic in another PC build.. Still, I wonder if someone else try doing the ATX mod with a higher wattage Flex ATX PSU.

Also, I will be getting the Geforce 4 Ti 4600 and a cheap AGP motherboard with RAM and a Pentium III processor (which I plan to use for a retro gaming PC build later on) to flash the card. I'm going to flash the Radeon 9000 Pro 128 MB back to its original BIOS and put it in that build with the Geforce 4 going into the PowerMac. I decided to go all out since I already spent that much on the project and the gaming performance in Simcity 4 kind of sucked on the Radeon 9000 Pro.

[IIO]

It took little over two weeks, but Firmtek decided to show signs of life and shipped my order after I contacted them.

i am glad to hear that, hopefully that last route will work for many, many years.

may i ask what you paid? the new price?

[chikorita157]

It took little over two weeks, but Firmtek decided to show signs of life and shipped my order after I contacted them.

may i ask what you paid? the new price?

Yes, unfortunately, but of course, given that Mac OS 9 bootable SATA PCI cards are rare and sell for way more money, I think it's a bargin. Also, you don't have to deal with the limitations of IDE and compatibility issues.

[sequencers.io]

I ordered mine on March 9 for $119.95 and received it in the mail today.

Great tip, chikorita157! I agree, this card is much cheaper than the 4-port SATA cards I've seen on Ebay.

[Jubadub]

I have been working on an "Ultimate Mac OS machine" project for a long while myself, as well (and still am), so I can slowly share some tips to further your ambition over time.

One big important thing is to make sure your Mac is equipped with the best G4 processors. That normally would be a 7448 (maximum L2 cache, maximum general system performance) labelled by the manufacturer as 1.7GHz base clock speed, overclocked to 2GHz or greater (stable 2.2GHz-ish might be possible), and a 7457 (maximum L3 cache, perhaps might top out the 7448 in performance for an extremely low minority of situations) labelled by the manufacturer as 1.267GHz base clock speed, overclocked to 1.5GHz or greater. But for some reason, under Mac OS, those two processors (and the 7447) seem unable to boot the system in a dual-CPU configuration until we move out the Multiprocessing folder from Extensions (which makes only 1 of the 2 CPUs usable), so until we sort out that problem (maybe we need to patch the Multiprocessing extensions? Spoof our CPU ID? Try out Daystar's Multiprocessing extensions instead?), then a 7455 (and 7445 for higher clock speeds?) will still have their place for any Mac OS app that uses more than 1 CPU (some functions from Photoshop. Anything else? StuffIt? Or?).

As far as "famous" CPU upgrades go, for the best Mac OS 9 machines (MDD and Xserve G4 with 167MHz bus speed), I know Sonnet made a dual 7447 upgrade (with only 1 CPU working, as described above), but there was no 7448 upgrade (there were some, but only for worse PowerMac models like the QuickSilvers), and I don't know of any 7457 upgrade either. However, we can still install single (and dual) 7448 and 7457 upgrades on those machine with the following steps:
- Acquire the BGA-based 7448 and 7457 CPUs themselves; (Tip: Chinese vendors who sell them for 50 USD or less)
- Acquire an MDD/Xserve CPU card (could also be Sonnet's MDX card, too) to receive the CPUs;
- Find someone who does CPU soldering/reballing services. A very small, interposer board is needed to be soldered between the processor and the CPU card if using the stock MDD/Xserve card for the 7448, and if using the Sonnet MDX card for the 7457. Ask your service provider in advance if they know how to deal with or make and apply those interposer boards for those processors.

If anyone is interested, I know one guy who does the service in the US, and another guy who does the same in Slovakia. Not sure if the former is open to doing it for everyone (I will try asking him in a month or two from now, because he won't be available for a while), but the latter is a MacRumors PPC subforum member called JoyBed, to whom you can drop a PM. Of course, make sure to always be polite and cordial about it with them, especially since they do this service mostly as a favor and hobby than for profit.

After we sort the CPU stuff out, we can look into other ways of upgrading the Mac. Heatsinks, fans, airflow, noise etc..

Also, from my experience, for some reason, when I used a SATA SSD with my PCI card, it booted OS 9 at the exact same speed as my IDE-connected drive (with a Marvell-based SATA adapter). Same drive on both cases, tested one at a time, many times over, with no other PCI devices connected. So I would not sweat over the SATA PCI cards so much. (Unless if they behave differently with a 66MHz PCI connection, which is found on the Xserve G4 and earlier PowerMacs, instead of the usual 33MHz PCI.) I also heard that the 4-port SATA cards aren't OS-9-compatible, but I haven't personally checked (yet). In short, the built-in IDE interfaces in the MDD and Xserve are king.

Let us take Mac OS 9.2.2 to the absolute limit.

[chikorita157]

Some good news, it was the power supply after all. After installing the refurbished one, the computer gave a chime and powered back up. I will be of course sending the dead one. I also got a DisplayPort monitor to DVI active adapter so I can use my 2010 Apple LED Cinema Display that still works. It works under Mac OS 9, except the internal sound and web cam obviously doesn't work.

I am getting the Pentium III board, RAM and Geforce 4 TI 4600 to flash soon. The other power supply is coming on Tuesday, so I won't be doing much with those parts for the time being.

[Jubadub]

For future reference, it seems the power supply can be replaced with some "normal" non-Apple ones, as long as you don't plan to use ADC video connectors. This is also key to making MDDs silent, which is certainly a huge upgrade (in terms of pleasure using the machine, rather than performance).

For instance, check out this eBay listing, with a seller selling his MDD that contains a Be Quiet! PSU (and a Noctua main fan, also replacing the original, resulting in even more silence): https://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Powermac-G4-MDD-867-MHz-Dual-512-MB-250-GB-SSD-OS-10-4/294048870698

More reliable, compact and silent PSU = huge upgrade in my book. The ADC user (not your case) might want to keep the original PSU safely-stored, though. I certainly keep mine just for the sake of having a theoretically more "feature complete" machine (the feature being ADC support) in case I ever feel like picking that over silence.

[chikorita157]

For future reference, it seems the power supply can be replaced with some "normal" non-Apple ones, as long as you don't plan to use ADC video connectors. This is also key to making MDDs silent, which is certainly a huge upgrade (in terms of pleasure using the machine, rather than performance).

For instance, check out this eBay listing, with a seller selling his MDD that contains a Be Quiet! PSU (and a Noctua main fan, also replacing the original, resulting in even more silence): https://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Powermac-G4-MDD-867-MHz-Dual-512-MB-250-GB-SSD-OS-10-4/294048870698

More reliable, compact and silent PSU = huge upgrade in my book. The ADC user (not your case) might want to keep the original PSU safely-stored, though. I certainly keep mine just for the sake of having a theoretically more "feature complete" machine (the feature being ADC support) in case I ever feel like picking that over silence.

I was considering using a Flex ATX power supply, but I ultimately decided to just get a completely refurbished one, which should last me for a long time. Not too bothered by the noise, but it works.

Regarding the Firmtek adapter, yes the box has a copyright date of 2005. After doing some testing in XBench, the speeds are roughly two times faster than the ACard adapter. It shows up as a SCSI adapter in Mac OS 9, but regular ATA on Mac OS X, but none of the drives appear in the ATA section. Also, the computer boots faster with this adapter as seen in the screenshot. There is huge speed difference, even with an IDE to SATA SSD. I compared the results with the MSATA SSD upgrade I did to my PowerBook G4 Titanium and the ACard has a slight performance advantage.

[Jubadub]

So if I understood you right, your PCI-X SeriTek SATA card is faster than your PCI ACard SATA card, at least according to XBench, and it is also faster than IDE-to-SATA adapters you have used. I have some questions about that:

- Which IDE-to-SATA adapters were used on the MDD? Did you use the same SSD for all the 3 test cases? (PCI-X SeriTek, PCI ACard, SATA-to-IDE adapter)
- When you tested the ACard, were any other PCI devices also connected? (PCI and PCI-X devices slow down with each extra PCI/PCI-X connected)

I find it a bit strange that there could be performance gains by using a PCI-X card on a PCI slot, because it all boils down to the slot it is connected to, which is the same old regular PCI. Now whether or not the card itself has better technology (chips etc.) is something I find more believable, although I still tilt an eyebrow at that possibility, as all devices supposedly just provided the same SATA I interface over the same connector (PCI), over the same technique (SCSI "emulation"). Does the ACard use SeriTek firmware? The SATA card I used is not SeriTek's, but it is flashed with SeriTek's firmware. I do have a real SeriTek card (plain PCI card rather than PCI-X like yours), which I didn't test and compare against yet, but I do plan to do so sometime in the future, which hopefully might clear this up.

In the screenshots, I see the cards working and two benchmark results, which shows write/read speeds being faster in one than the other, but nothing on how fast booting was. In my case, I picked a physical timer and timed it multiple times.

Now, if the only comparison that was made between the PCI Acard SATA card and a "SATA-to-IDE adapter" was by using a different computer (PowerBook instead of MDD), that too with a different SSD model, brand and type/form factor (mSATA vs. SATA), then it is not a very good comparison. To be clear, in my case I used a StarTech adapter in the same MDD machine as the SATA card, and also the exact same physical SSD (not just same brand and model, but literally the exact same unit). My SSD is a 2TB Samsung 860 PRO.

============

Leaving the SATA business aside, I noticed you mentioned the Radeon 9000 as the "max video card" for OS 9 besides the GeForce 4 Ti 4600. Technically, it is the 3rd best card, as the Radeon 8500 (64MB VRAM only though, not sure if a 128MB version of it can be flashed) is considerably better. In fact, when I ran Diablo II with FPS displayed, the Radeon 8500 ran at a much higher FPS than the NVidia card, and I'm not sure why. (The House of Moth suspected something is wrong with the NVidia drivers we host here, which made me wonder, although it could very well just mean NVidia drivers for OS9 aren't as good as ATI's, and/or older versions of their drivers might be better, and/or something is wrong both with my NVidia card and simultaneously with House of Moth's card coincidentally.)

On the NVidia side of things, there is yet another faster card that we can use (forgot its name... NVIDIA Quadro4 900 XGL, I think?), but it requires resistor modding to change its ID (if not also flashing). But it's a very rare GPU to find... So certainly not convenient, and I'm not sure if the difference in performance is noticeable.

I also wonder if the best Voodoo card, Voodoo5 5500, has some uses over the best ATI and NVidia cards, despite purportedly lower specs. But I got one just in case, to compare it against the ATI and NVidia offerings.