Author Topic: Digidesign Sound Designer II  (Read 834 times)

Offline ght4361

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Digidesign Sound Designer II
« on: September 04, 2020, 07:39:51 AM »
Greetings. I have been looking for information about Digidesign's Sound Designer II but I can't seem to find a lot on the Internet. Is there a manual available somewhere? Does anyone have a working system that could perhaps offer any insight?


Offline ssp3

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Re: Digidesign Sound Designer II
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2020, 05:15:08 PM »
Greetings. I have been looking for information about Digidesign's Sound Designer II but I can't seem to find a lot on the Internet. Is there a manual available somewhere? Does anyone have a working system that could perhaps offer any insight?
Did you ask Siri? No?

OK, except a few Read Me's and manual supplements, SDII manual was only available in printed form. At first as a binder, later as a book. I think I had three different editions over the years.
As to the working system and insight - I haven't fired up my SDII system for at least 5-6 years and probably have forgotten many things, but can you at least formulate your question?

Offline daddyjeff

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Re: Digidesign Sound Designer II
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2020, 07:33:03 PM »
I made contacts with the FBI, NASA and the CIA, none could solve the search, but SIRI told me to look at these available links.

thanks SIRI you are the best !!

-afro- :o 8)


http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/sound-designer-ii-283

http://archive.digidesign.com/download/legacy/sd2/
« Last Edit: September 04, 2020, 07:50:16 PM by daddyjeff »

Offline ght4361

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Re: Digidesign Sound Designer II
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2020, 03:44:26 AM »
Greetings. I have been looking for information about Digidesign's Sound Designer II but I can't seem to find a lot on the Internet. Is there a manual available somewhere? Does anyone have a working system that could perhaps offer any insight?
Did you ask Siri? No?

OK, except a few Read Me's and manual supplements, SDII manual was only available in printed form. At first as a binder, later as a book. I think I had three different editions over the years.
As to the working system and insight - I haven't fired up my SDII system for at least 5-6 years and probably have forgotten many things, but can you at least formulate your question?

Well, I found a few older topics on the Avid DUC forum where they were discussing how practical the software was, especially when it came to crossfade live recorded music or creating seamless loops.

This is primarily what I would like to know. How flexible are the editing tools? Can you adjust the crossfades in detail? Does it support more than one files open at once, copying and pasting back and forth? Can you mix-paste a segment to another sound file like in Soundforge or Bias Peak (meaning, without moving the rest of the waveform further to the right)?

I'm looking to set up a dedicated audio editor and since I am also interested in classic Mac software, I thought maybe this would be a good choice. We normally use a Mac Pro with Pro Tools HD in the studio.

I made contacts with the FBI, NASA and the CIA, none could solve the search, but SIRI told me to look at these available links.

thanks SIRI you are the best !!

-afro- :o 8)


http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/sound-designer-ii-283

http://archive.digidesign.com/download/legacy/sd2/

I checked both of these before. Macintosh Garden does contain the software but wouldn't you need dedicated hardware to be able to run it?

Offline ssp3

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Re: Digidesign Sound Designer II
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2020, 09:25:51 PM »
.. but wouldn't you need dedicated hardware to be able to run it?
Before answering all your questions, consider this.
1. To make SDII work, you will need Audiomedia III card. Do you have it?
2. To make Audiomedia III card work in post-beige Macs you will need a card with PCI Matchmaker chip Rev.QC or later.
http://duc.avid.com/showpost.php?p=1671180&postcount=2
3. SDII is not officially qualified for OS9. (It does not run correctly (no record) in my Digital Audio G4/9.2.2. The AMIII card itself works fine with other software that I use.)
http://archive.digidesign.com/support/faq/sd2.html

Still wanna go down that route?

Offline ght4361

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Re: Digidesign Sound Designer II
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2020, 04:04:05 AM »
I have a Powermac G4 MDD 1.25 ghz. I know that you need an Audiomedia III card (or Audiomedia II for that matter) to run SDII, but can't it also be used with the Pro Tools DSP cards of that era? The Digidesign archive page mentions that in can be used with Pro Tools III PCI too. I assume that SDII came as a supplementary editor to PT.

In addition, I know that it is not supported officially in OS 9 but there is mention in this thread http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=278606  of a working configuration with an AMIII on a G4. Of course, I don't know what "working" means in this case. You mentioned it cannot record, right?

I don't mind spending some time to configure a system but given the lack of a demo, I'm trying to gather as much info as possible to find out if this would be ideal for my workflow, hence the questions about usability.

This is only a personal project. I don't depend on it to do regular, paying work.

Offline IIO

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Re: Digidesign Sound Designer II
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2020, 04:54:27 AM »
AM III works great with PT 4 (DAE) and Cubase VST 4 (ASIO) - and with soundmanager, too - but i am not sure about MacOS9 and G4 processors? i wouldnt dare to try. it´s system 7 stuff.
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Offline ssp3

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Re: Digidesign Sound Designer II
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2020, 05:51:46 AM »
I have a Powermac G4 MDD 1.25 ghz.
... can't it also be used with the Pro Tools DSP cards of that era? The Digidesign archive page mentions that in can be used with Pro Tools III PCI too.
Yes, it can, but that's another, even bigger can of worms. Requirement of Rev.QC PCI Matchmaker chips on all cards still apply and, they are scarce.
Quote
In addition, I know that it is not supported officially in OS 9 but there is mention in this thread http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=278606  of a working configuration with an AMIII on a G4. Of course, I don't know what "working" means in this case. You mentioned it cannot record, right?
DAE/DSI 5.1.1 ... That's interesting. I never used anything past 3.4.2. Next time I power up that particular machine, I'll try the newer ones out. And yes, I could not record (there was no file produced).
Quote
I'm trying to gather as much info as possible to find out if this would be ideal for my workflow...
Here's the link to manual of Atari version of SDII. All functions are the same as far as I can see.
http://www.atarimania.com/utility-atari-st-sound-tools_s17566.html

« Last Edit: September 06, 2020, 04:18:04 PM by ssp3 »

Offline ght4361

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Re: Digidesign Sound Designer II
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2020, 12:07:26 PM »
I will take a good look at the manual and see if I can get a better overview of the software. Thanks for the input so far. :)

Offline daddyjeff

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Re: Digidesign Sound Designer II
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2020, 06:58:55 PM »
.. but wouldn't you need dedicated hardware to be able to run it?
Before answering all your questions, consider this.
1. To make SDII work, you will need Audiomedia III card. Do you have it?
2. To make Audiomedia III card work in post-beige Macs you will need a card with PCI Matchmaker chip Rev.QC or later.
http://duc.avid.com/showpost.php?p=1671180&postcount=2
3. SDII is not officially qualified for OS9. (It does not run correctly (no record) in my Digital Audio G4/9.2.2. The AMIII card itself works fine with other software that I use.)
http://archive.digidesign.com/support/faq/sd2.html

Still wanna go down that route?

Sound Designer II ™ + 2.8.3 works with hardware digidesign, which has audiomedia III for example digi001 that has this interface.

digi001 has drivers for os8 and os9. Sound Designer II ™ + 2.8.3 works with os7 os8 onwards, it was never tested on os9, but those who have a digi001 for os8 will be able to use it.

http://archive.digidesign.com/download/sndrvr/
« Last Edit: September 08, 2020, 07:10:38 PM by daddyjeff »

Offline ssp3

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Re: Digidesign Sound Designer II
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2020, 11:30:37 PM »
Why are you posting this nonsense and confusing people?

Sigh..

Offline AtariMan

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Re: Digidesign Sound Designer II
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2020, 08:41:27 AM »
Sound Designer works with Pro Tools 3, Audiomedia 2, Audiomedia 3 - no plugins.
Everything else is fantasy.

Offline ght4361

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Re: Digidesign Sound Designer II
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2020, 09:08:22 AM »
Alright. I finished checking the manual but there are a few things I don't get.

1. Perhaps I have overlooked this, but I don't understand if the various processes are performed in real-time or if they function more like Audacity (set up the parameters, render the clip and if you don't like it, undo, change the parameters, render again etc). The discussion here has led me to believe that they are real-time: https://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=218838 .

2. From what I see, the maximum audio resolution is 16-bit, 48khz with the Audiomedia III. Could the Pro tools III provide 24-bit, 48khz through its own converters or is the bit depth limited by Sound designer itself?

3. There is no mention of DSP plugins in the manual. Maybe they weren't compatible with the Atari version. I've read that the Waves suite was available.


Sound Designer works with Pro Tools 3, Audiomedia 2, Audiomedia 3 - no plugins.
Everything else is fantasy.

Supposedly it did support plugins according to this thread: http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=331578 . But I really don't know the details. That's what I've been trying to figure out.

Offline ssp3

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Re: Digidesign Sound Designer II
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2020, 10:40:17 AM »
Crossfades and individual region's gain adjustments are in real time (in playlist window).
Normalize, change gain, EQ(?) etc. are all rendered "offline".

Plug-ins are not supported on PCI hardware, only on NuBus.
http://archive.digidesign.com/support/faq/sd2.html

Audiomedia III is full 24 bits on digital in/out. Analog part is 18bit in/out, limited by the A/D and D/A chips used. If recording to 24 bit file, remaining bits are filled with zeros.
http://archive.digidesign.com/support/propix/AM3.html

Sound Designer is 24 bits, if set up that way.

Offline IIO

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Re: Digidesign Sound Designer II
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2020, 08:10:48 PM »

2. From what I see, the maximum audio resolution is 16-bit, 48khz with the Audiomedia III. Could the Pro tools III provide 24-bit, 48khz through its own converters or is the bit depth limited by Sound designer itself?

when SDII app came out that was before OS 8 - and some 7 or so years before PT had 24 bit file support.

so even if it would work to work with 24 bit files, what is it good for to have an editor on an operating system where there is no multitrackrecorder and no dac with 24 bit? and which was targeted towards 8- 12- and 16-bit samplers and allows rates down to 8khz.
not to speak of the RAM and storage options in these days.

Quote
Supposedly it did support plugins according to this thread

yeah, but not on AMIII. probably a pure marketing decision. my card came bundled with PT and they wanted you to use that.... and well, most if not all SD plug-ins are also available for AS (not sure about JVP), so could just use PT as your editor app.

as for your "looping" request, you can use infinity for that in a 16 bit world. it is from the same man anway. :)
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Offline IIO

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Re: Digidesign Sound Designer II
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2020, 08:30:26 PM »
from the 282 readme:

"The application Patch SDII 2.82 is designed to operate on installed versions of Sound Designer II 2.82 and 2.82. Other versions of Sound Designer II are not patched.

Be sure that you have launched your installed Sound Designer II Version 2.82 application at least once.

The updater identifies the files for update by searching on the selected drive. If you have renamed the files, there is a possibility that some files will not be updated. In the event that you suspect an incomplete update, try re-installing from your original master disks (for v2.8 or v2.81), and then repeat the update.

Mt. Digi was not automatically installed by the v2.8 and v2.81 installers for Sound Designer II. If you want an updated copy of Mt. Digi™, be sure that you have a copy (v1.0 or v1.1) in your control panels folder. To install it, drag it off of your Sound Designer II “Install 1” disk into your Control Panels folder.

The application “Update to SDII 2.82” is designed to update installed versions of Sound Designer II (SDII) 2.8 or 2.81 to SDII Version 2.82.  Different authorization keys were used for SDII 2.8 and for SDII 2.81. As a result, this updater will convert SDII 2.8 to a version of SDII 2.82 that uses the appropriate authorization key for SDII 2.8. Likewise, the updater will convert SDII 2.81 into a version of SDII 2.82 that uses the correct key for SDII 2.81."



LOL WHAT?



"For users with both 2.8 and 2.81 versions:
The patch only repairs Sound Designer II Version 2.82 and 2.82 of the English applications and not the Japanese versions. If you currently have Sound Designer II Version 2.8 or 2.81, you must first use the posted Updater".



うまく !


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Offline ssp3

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Re: Digidesign Sound Designer II
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2020, 10:58:49 PM »
Actually, the ever changing, half-baked, authorization keys losing Pace was the real reason for this clusterfcuk.

Offline ght4361

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Re: Digidesign Sound Designer II
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2020, 12:45:11 AM »
Crossfades and individual region's gain adjustments are in real time (in playlist window).
Normalize, change gain, EQ(?) etc. are all rendered "offline".

Plug-ins are not supported on PCI hardware, only on NuBus.
http://archive.digidesign.com/support/faq/sd2.html

Audiomedia III is full 24 bits on digital in/out. Analog part is 18bit in/out, limited by the A/D and D/A chips used. If recording to 24 bit file, remaining bits are filled with zeros.
http://archive.digidesign.com/support/propix/AM3.html

Sound Designer is 24 bits, if set up that way.

So, the only way to run plugins inside SDII would be with the Audiomedia II Nubus card and only with offline processing. That way you had to "guess" how it would sound like. I presume it's the same for the mix function.

I have also found this old article from 1989 about Sound Tools: http://www.muzines.co.uk/articles/digidesign-sound-tools/5626 . What was the relation of this software to Sound Designer II? The arcticle mentions it is like an extension to SDII. A preview function appears to be present in it, so I assumed that preview would also be available in the latter.


Offline IIO

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Re: Digidesign Sound Designer II
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2020, 06:07:59 AM »
i am afraid there were no realtime plug-in in those days.

soundtools? is just a combination with a hardware.
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Offline ght4361

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Re: Digidesign Sound Designer II
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2020, 12:56:45 PM »
Got it. I notice that sometimes these names are used interchangeably so there is some confusion.

Based on the descriptions, I thought that Sound Designer II was a "predecessor" to Bias Peak, but that program seems to be quite a bit more advanced even in its earlier versions. Maybe I'm asking too much from such an old software.

But then again, how did they do sound design back then? Given the lack of automation or any other envelope tool, I suppose you would use only crossfades to change smoothly from one sound to the next or very fast fade ins/outs for an "impact" sound effect for example.

Offline IIO

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Re: Digidesign Sound Designer II
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2020, 01:11:09 PM »
maybe they didnt do it? because before you have the need to do sounddesign to digital audio you first need to have digital audio. :)

the soundtools package was one of the first 4-channel recording tools of all times and it was originally meant to be an editor for the emu samplers.

which later alchemy did much better (and it even supported the soundtools interface)

in 1990 most of us did "sounddesign" using outboard gear and casette tapes.

and of course you can do crossfades with an analog mixer, too, just not as exact as with a digital ramp.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2020, 01:52:32 PM by IIO »
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Offline ssp3

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Re: Digidesign Sound Designer II
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2020, 12:28:38 AM »
But then again, how did they do sound design back then? Given the lack of automation or any other envelope tool..
That's a typical mistake the newcomers to the OS7-9 world make - they're approaching the 25+ years old software with today's thinking. What envelope? You chop up your sounds in SDII, transfer them back to hardware sampler and do your ADSR there. Maybe in Sample Cell too, but I haven't used that thing.
SDII started as sample editor for samplers of that era, but quickly evolved into 2 track editor and finished CD assembly app. Especially when it became able to handle a 24 bit files. Back then it was a "low cost" alternative to the full blown Sonic Solutions system.
There are thousands of CD titles out there that were made with SDII, especially in classical music world. Radio programming is another area where SDII got used a lot.
Record your material, drop markers on the fly, play it back, use very well implemented scrub tool, find your edit points, adjust markers, define your regions. Then create a new playlist, drop in your regions, adjust fades and region gain - DONE! Quick and efficient. Try that with Peak ..

http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=9994

P.S. I have a suspicion that SDII is not a right tool for you. You'll be better off with Peak 2.5.x if using OS9, or stay in OSX and choose whatever modern tool you want.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2020, 12:57:16 AM by ssp3 »

Offline ght4361

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Re: Digidesign Sound Designer II
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2020, 02:04:50 AM »
Yes, I should have thought about this better.

Still, I would like to try setting up a system and using it for experimentation. That means that I would have to find an Audiomedia II card, the compatible plugins to add the various DSP functions and a Nubus Macintosh to put it all together.

I understand this is going to take some time. Finding a suitable Macintosh would be the first step.

Offline rvense

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Re: Digidesign Sound Designer II
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2020, 09:11:37 AM »
Turbosynth can apply arbitrarily complex envelopes to audio files.

Offline daddyjeff

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Re: Digidesign Sound Designer II
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2020, 11:12:33 AM »
Turbosynth can apply arbitrarily complex envelopes to audio files.

Right, and anything like metasynth 2.6 does just as much as that and generates audio from wavetable synthesis, not to mention that anything you draw with the brush can do wonderful things for your modern elektron sampler. without using any plugin, although its internal algorithms are unique and generous for designing layered sounds with wav audio format.  -afro-

Offline daddyjeff

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Re: Digidesign Sound Designer II
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2020, 11:17:25 AM »
i3 DSP Quatro 1.5 for mac os9 is another great editing beast for pre-built samples.

I have the Quattro DSP for osX panther with real-time resampling for virtual vst instruments and it's comfortable to design things with it.

Does anyone have the i3 DSP Quattro 1.2 for mac os9?   :o

http://yahoo.aleado.com/lot?auctionID=s545200895

Offline calzone

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Re: Digidesign Sound Designer II
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2020, 01:23:11 PM »
 Stefano still authorizes OS 9 licenses and offers a download if you purchase the new version of DSP Quattro or have an existing license.  -afro-

Offline daddyjeff

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Re: Digidesign Sound Designer II
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2020, 02:52:34 PM »
Stefano still authorizes OS 9 licenses and offers a download if you purchase the new version of DSP Quattro or have an existing license.  -afro-

Thanks for reporting, I appreciate your comment.

I see absurd in my case to pay so much money for an updated version for a modern MAC that I will never have.

my only MAC is a G4 MDD with 1.25 CPU for Panther and oS9.2, for podcast and music production.

I have a reduced version of i3 DSP Quattro 1.5 that comes with a CD room of an old edition of computer music that was distributed free with the monthly magazine at the beginning of this century, it is fully functional with this I sample my virtual instruments, and do great things, but I don't have anything like it for mac os9.2.

Was there a fully functional demo version of i3 DSP quattro for mac os9?

Greetings

Offline macarone

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Re: Digidesign Sound Designer II
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2020, 03:26:53 PM »
>Does anyone have the i3 DSP Quattro 1.2 for mac os9? 

I found the attached. It is untested by me.

If it is the wrong file, or does not work, please advise me, and I will remove.

Offline daddyjeff

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Re: Digidesign Sound Designer II
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2020, 08:08:01 PM »
>Does anyone have the i3 DSP Quattro 1.2 for mac os9? 

I found the attached. It is untested by me.

If it is the wrong file, or does not work, please advise me, and I will remove.

Yes, this is it, but I don't know how to activate it in its full version

Thanks for such a great contribution, this is not forgotten, it is a great tool, I have been behind it for years.

a thousand thanks to you ¨macarone¨.  -afro- ;D

Offline ght4361

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Re: Digidesign Sound Designer II
« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2020, 03:20:09 AM »
I have been very busy the past week and couldn't find time to post.

The original Sound Tools package ran on a Macintosh IIfx, based on the Sound on Sound article I posted above. The lastest and most powerful Macintosh with Nubus slots is the 7100/80. Considering that Audiomedia II is needed to use plugins, the choices are limited between the models released in this timeframe.

Except for cost, is there any reason not to get the fastest system possible? What would be the most sensible setup to get Sound Designer II up and running?

Offline IIO

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Re: Digidesign Sound Designer II
« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2020, 11:33:43 AM »
if i would have to guess i would think that the later systems are cheaper to get.
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Offline rvense

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Re: Digidesign Sound Designer II
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2020, 08:11:37 AM »
The big difference there is that the PowerMac is, well, a PowerMac. So make sure the software is available as a fat binary, if it's only for 68k a fast Quadra might be faster.

Offline ght4361

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Re: Digidesign Sound Designer II
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2020, 01:40:54 PM »
I have found various reports (including this thread) that SDII runs up to OS 9, albeit not officially. I think that a version of System 7 would be the ideal choice for Audiomedia II.