Author Topic: PCR-A30 - any midi input is causing instant crashes  (Read 2415 times)

Offline joeyvfx

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PCR-A30 - any midi input is causing instant crashes
« on: June 15, 2020, 09:57:31 PM »
Hey everyone! I recently got a PCR-A30 to use with Cubase VST 5.0. I installed OMS and the drivers for the PCR, following the manual's setup instructions for OMS. (https://static.roland.com/assets/media/pdf/PCR-A30_OM.pdf)

However, any midi input - dials, knobs, keys - will instantly cause an error to be thrown up and my cursor to freeze. When I try to "Test Studio" within OMS Setup, the moment I move a knob, it unexpectedly quits & freezes my system, with the error message "an error of type 1 occurred." In Cubase, I get the "ReWireDLL.CPP (994) : VERIFY failure" error.

I tried installing an older version of OMS, no luck there. Same behavior.

The PCR-A30 works fine for midi on my modern machine in Logic Pro X. Also, I'm able to use the ASIO drivers in Cubase (on OS 9) for outputting audio without any crashes or issues. So I know that it works, it's just not liking something in my OS 9 setup.

Where should I go from here? I've done a lot of googling & searching on these forums, but I haven't found a solution yet. Has anyone here had an issue like this before? I'd appreciate any help on this. Thanks!

Offline teroyk

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Re: PCR-A30 - any midi input is causing instant crashes
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2020, 01:43:12 AM »
Do you use it with USB power or AC adapter?
I bought my first new Mac when OS X 10.1 released. And I bought that Mac because it had Mac OS 9 too. And I bought my first 68k Mac when Apple stopped PPC Macs.

Offline joeyvfx

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Re: PCR-A30 - any midi input is causing instant crashes
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2020, 08:07:43 AM »
I tried both, it does the same thing switched either way oddly enough.

Offline GaryN

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Re: PCR-A30 - any midi input is causing instant crashes
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2020, 06:31:23 PM »
Hey everyone! I recently got a PCR-A30 to use with Cubase VST 5.0. I installed OMS and the drivers for the PCR, following the manual's setup instructions for OMS. (https://static.roland.com/assets/media/pdf/PCR-A30_OM.pdf)

However, any midi input - dials, knobs, keys - will instantly cause an error to be thrown up and my cursor to freeze. When I try to "Test Studio" within OMS Setup, the moment I move a knob, it unexpectedly quits & freezes my system, with the error message "an error of type 1 occurred." In

1) So, you should have OMS 2.5.8 installed. If you run "Test Studio" without the PCR plugged in, does it crash? If no, goto #2… If yes, goto A
2) If you run "Test Studio" with the PCR plugged in and Cubase OFF - as in NOT launched at all, does it crash? If no, goto #3… If yes goto B
3) If you now launch Cubase and try again, does it crash? If yes, goto C
4) Are you using any other MIDI devices simultaneously? if yes, goto D
5) Did you follow Roland’s instructions using their OMS setup on Pg 29 of the manual? If NO. Do it…If yes then ?

A) Something's wrong that has nothing to do with the PCR itself, although it MAY be the PCR driver
B) Look for an "echo" or similar setting on the PCR
C) Look for (I don't know exactly what it's called) "keyboard echo" "keyboard thru" - a setting that causes keyboard input to echo right back out to where it came from like to record AND sound a synth. If it's ON shut it OFF - there's a feedback loop happening.
D) Make settings as described in the Driver E (Mac OS9) folder on the CD-ROM

So, I actually read the damn manual and what can I say…… They have set this “thing” up to be everything to everybody. It’s a keyboard that masquerades as a USB MIDI Host AND audio interface too.
The “Input / Output Devices” on Pg make little or no sense -it’s a trial and error mess.

You should read this: https://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=200373
That’s a PoorTools problem with the same error you have They blame it on outdated plugins because …… It’s a different situation BUT
DID you previously have PT on your machine? If YES, have you killed all of the extensions and trash PT deposits all over the HDD?

If you get thru all of this without a solution, holler back and I'll think of something else to try.

Offline joeyvfx

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Re: PCR-A30 - any midi input is causing instant crashes
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2020, 10:29:26 PM »
Thanks for taking the time to reply! Alright, I walked through these, here's what I got:

1) I have OMS 2.3.8, not 2.5.8. I'm assuming that was a typo, correct me if I'm wrong! It doesn't crash when I run "Test Studio" without the PCR plugged in.
2) Fresh boot, Cubase isn't running... PCR on & plugged in... I run "Test Studio"... As soon as I tap a key, instant crash!

I looked through the manual, searching for possibly relevant keywords like "thru" "loop" and "feedback" - no luck there. I'm not seeing anything related to midi feedback issues, only audio interface feedback & some things relating to software midi thru, from what I can tell. Just to clarify, the only cables plugged into the PCR are the USB cable and the AC adapter. No actual midi cables or instruments are plugged into the midi ports of the PCR.

I never installed Pro Tools on this machine, so it shouldn't be that. However, I did try disabling the ReWire extension altogether, which turned the cubase rewire 994 error into the "an error of type 1 occurred" error, which is what I get from OMS when running "Test Studio."

I guess that would narrow it down to just two suspects - the keyboard/its drivers, and OMS.

Also, I did try resetting the keyboard & a few different USB cables. No luck there.

This is an odd product, huh? I was really intrigued by the midi controller/audio interface combo concept, haha! Never seen anything like it before. The only place it was mentioned on these forums was in this post from supernova777: http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=67.0
I just assumed it would work fine since there are OS 9 drivers for it. Hmmm.

Offline GaryN

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Re: PCR-A30 - any midi input is causing instant crashes
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2020, 04:57:17 PM »
You're right. It's was a typo (a mental one…) It's OMS 2.3.8

This is a head scratcher. It sounds like the PCR is outputting something that the Mac OS can't deal with.
Clearly, the PCR "wants" a USB host arrangement as on newer computers. BUT:
One would think (yes I know, that's just a synonym for "assume") that the Roland-provided " OS9 driver" would account for that.

I DO find the Roland Studio setup file to be curious. I'll reiterate again: You DO have the Roland setup file Open and Current in OMS… right?
I find the three separate OMS "feeds" to/from the PCR to be unique/weird. I've never seen anything else like that anywhere.
The "PCR-A MIDI In-Out" appears to be only for additional MIDI devices you may have connected to the PCR's MIDI jacks.
The other "Two" appear to exist in software only or in the minds of the geniuses who…… never mind

Anyway…
Some notes: Pg. 27: "*If you install OMS or FreeMIDI after installing the PCR-A driver, you must install the PCR-A driver once again."  Did that happen?
Check to make sure:
F8 clock is OFF Pg 83
V-Link is OFF
Also:
Try with USB audio OFF
Try switching MIDI drivers Pg 83

Finally, you said: "2) Fresh boot, Cubase isn't running... PCR on & plugged in... I run "Test Studio"... As soon as I tap a key, instant crash!"
Do you mean it passed the "test studio" run and then crashed when you hit a key on the PCR or crashed on "test studio"?

The pre-OSX "Type 1" error means The computer tried to access memory that doesn't exist. a sort of overrun. Which reminds me…

What model Mac is this and how much RAM is installed? Assuming you're not trying to run with little or no RAM,

Try slightly INcreasing or even DEcreasing the RAM allocated to OMS as shown in the Finder OMS "Get Info" window maybe you'll get lucky

Holla back

Offline joeyvfx

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Re: PCR-A30 - any midi input is causing instant crashes
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2020, 02:01:02 PM »
Yes, the OMS setup from Roland is open & current in OMS. To reiterate: when I turn on "Test Studio" in OMS, nothing happens until I hit a key, then the whole system freezes with an error.

I actually did install OMS after installing the PCR driver, so I went ahead & reinstalled the PCR driver. Now I'm getting either errors of type 1 and type 2, but it's seemingly random which one pops up.

Tried turning the clock off on the keyboard, no change. V-Link is off. Tried turning off USB audio, restarted the keyboard, no change. Tried switching MIDI drivers, but OS 9 popped up a message saying it couldn't recognize it when I did that.

I also fiddled with OMS's RAM allocation settings, bringing the amounts up & down a few times, no change. Although I guess I should've clarified my hardware earlier! I'm running this all on an iMac G3 with the maximum 512MB of RAM. I know, not optimal for audio, but I have a G4 mini on the way, so maybe it'll behave differently with that? I sure hope it will.

I did try something new though. I plugged the MIDI output from my keystep into the input port on the PCR, and for the first time, MIDI was actually being sent through when I ran "Test Studio" in OMS! No crashing! So that's exciting. For some reason I couldn't get MIDI sent through to my VSTs in Cubase, even after re-enabling some things I had disabled while troubleshooting. I might just doing something wrong though - I'm still fairly new to OS 9 & Cubase.

So, external MIDI seems to work, but MIDI from the PCR itself crashes everything. I'm really hoping that it just acts weird on this iMac and it'll work once I get the G4 mini. I'm willing to keep pushing though... should I look into FreeMIDI at all? Is that an alternative to OMS?

Offline GaryN

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Re: PCR-A30 - any midi input is causing instant crashes
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2020, 04:41:02 PM »
I guess I should've clarified my hardware earlier! I'm running this all on an iMac G3 with the maximum 512MB of RAM. I know, not optimal for audio, but I have a G4 mini on the way, so maybe it'll behave differently with that? I sure hope it will.
A Life Saver Mac? Hoo boy…  I have one more thing to try, if it all fails then you should probably wait for your "new" Mac.
Yes, the iMac should work theoretically and I should still have a great head of hair too. Things don't always "work" as the are supposed to…
Let's skip the "test studio" routine for the moment. Try this:

Open the OMS Studio Setup.
Verify the channel the PCR is on by double-clicking the icons. Correct if necessary.
Click the little solid arrows between the number squares and the PCR icons to turn them OFF.
Close OMS.
Open Cubase.
Verify that IT sees the PCR on the correct channel as well.
Confirm "keyboard thru" or "echo" or whatever it is they call it is OFF.
Hit some keys on the PCR. See what happens.
If it crashes, go find a large hammer and correct the problem.
If it doesn't, open OMS Setup again.
"Reconnect" just the #2 arrow FROM the PCR TO the computer.
Save the setup and close OMS.
Go back to Cubase hit a key and see… If no crash, do you get MIDI to Cubase?

Rinse and repeat with the #3 arrow, then #1, then if no crash, add the #2 opposite direction arrow - skip #3 since they don't have it on to begin with.
Tell me what happens with each configuration.

Offline DieHard

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Re: PCR-A30 - any midi input is causing instant crashes
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2020, 05:56:31 PM »
I know it will work as a legacy controller if you by a cheap OS9 compatible MIDI interface and use the MIDI I/Out
https://static.roland.com/assets/media/pdf/PCR-A30_OM.pdf

I have used many Rolland controllers (A200,A300,etc.) and avoided the USB in all together in OS9, as I have also had issues with USB MIDI in OS9.

Leave the USB disconnected, use the AC Power, and the MIDI In/Out and all knobs and dials will map out without issue.

Offline GaryN

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Re: PCR-A30 - any midi input is causing instant crashes
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2020, 09:44:17 PM »
Leave the USB disconnected, use the AC Power, and the MIDI In/Out and all knobs and dials will map out without issue.
That would seem to be true… but being an all-in-one-everything-to-everybody combination controller, MIDI interface, audio interface and universal ball-scratcher is the point of buying the damn thing to begin with.
The fact that they actually wrote and provided OS9 drivers and even a special OMS config makes you think that at least once, in a tiny lab somewhere in Japan, they actually managed to make it work, so maybe you can too……

Offline joeyvfx

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Re: PCR-A30 - any midi input is causing instant crashes
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2020, 11:05:42 PM »
Yeah, I think I'm gonna have to wait for the G4 mini to show up before I can progress with this. Nothing I'm trying is making this thing work. Not even the large hammer!

Offline DieHard

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Re: PCR-A30 - any midi input is causing instant crashes
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2020, 10:30:26 AM »
Quote
but being an all-in-one-everything-to-everybody combination controller, MIDI interface, audio interface and universal ball-scratcher is the point of buying the damn thing to begin with.

universal ball-scratcher... Dammit Gary, time to clean my screen again, coffee spit out as usual, you really missed your comedic calling.

One last note, obviously programming the "ball-scratching" algorithm in OMS and Mac OS9, is much harder than in OS X

Offline GaryN

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Re: PCR-A30 - any midi input is causing instant crashes
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2020, 03:27:30 PM »
One last note, obviously programming the "ball-scratching" algorithm in OMS and Mac OS9, is much harder than in OS X
Of course. It is yet again, the lack of pre-emptive multitasking… ;)

Offline joeyvfx

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Re: PCR-A30 - any midi input is causing instant crashes
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2020, 09:21:40 PM »
Oh boy. So the Mac mini arrived... I might need to source a powermac G4 instead, lol. I'm running into quite a few different problems now, with Cubase, MIDI & other stuff. It's hard to say whether they're due to the hackiness of the mini, or due to the PCR. I've also ordered an Opcode MIDIPort 32 in case I wanna give up on the PCR.

Offline GaryN

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Re: PCR-A30 - any midi input is causing instant crashes
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2020, 02:57:26 PM »
Oh boy. So the Mac mini arrived... I might need to source a powermac G4 instead, lol. I'm running into quite a few different problems now, with Cubase, MIDI & other stuff. It's hard to say whether they're due to the hackiness of the mini, or due to the PCR. I've also ordered an Opcode MIDIPort 32 in case I wanna give up on the PCR.
Oww… You know OS9 on the mini is a work in progress at best. I see now you mentioned this before but I paid less attention to it than maybe I should have. If you do get it to load and run all that stuff, you will be a true pioneer…

If (when?) it doesn't work and you're tired of trying to hack it, if you really want to make music, find either a Quicksilver or an MDD. They take up more space but at least they'll work when you turn them on.

Congratulations on finding a MIDIport 32. They're scarce as the proverbial hen's teeth.

Offline joeyvfx

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Re: PCR-A30 - any midi input is causing instant crashes
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2020, 04:20:21 PM »
It's great that the mini can run OS 9 at all! Luckily i've got a lead on a MDD model. Not sure which cpu/config it is, but I'm assuming any of the MDD models should work fine in OS 9. And I didn't realize how lucky I was to find that MIDIport at a decent price!

Offline GaryN

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Re: PCR-A30 - any midi input is causing instant crashes
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2020, 06:09:15 PM »
Any MDD will boot OS9. However, the "Firewire 800" model (Jan - Jun 2003) will require the special OS we have but no serious issues otherwise.

Offline refinery

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Re: PCR-A30 - any midi input is causing instant crashes
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2020, 09:59:22 PM »
yeah nice find. really *any* opcode USB device is somewhat rare, they did not get many out the door before Gibson shredded the company. which is a damn shame because at the time SVP really was ahead of the game in many respects.
got my mind on my scsi and my scsi on my mind

Offline joeyvfx

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Re: PCR-A30 - any midi input is causing instant crashes
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2020, 08:28:28 PM »
I got the MDD! To my surprise it's the dual 1.25 GHz variant. (non firewire 800) Pretty rad. One caveat though - the whole thing reeks of cigarette smoke. It's omnipresent and pretty awful. So it might be a few days until I report back since I know I'll want to detoxify it before actually using it.

Offline GaryN

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Re: PCR-A30 - any midi input is causing instant crashes
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2020, 02:57:32 PM »
That sucks! Talk about a mixed blessing! The dual 1.25 is perfect. The "windtunnel" design means that tobacco tar has been deposited throughout the damn thing from front to back. Even worse, there are air channels between the outer poly skin and the steel underneath. You may have to take those apart too.

At least it's all hard surfaces and it will clean up… eventually.

Offline joeyvfx

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Re: PCR-A30 - any midi input is causing instant crashes
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2020, 09:23:35 PM »
Luckily I haven't found any tar on the inside, at least nothing visible. There was definitely a thin coating of cigarette juice covering the outside. All of those panel pieces are off now (except for the back panel, it's held on by a locking mechanism & I can't pry it off.) Currently working on wiping everything down, then I guess I'll let it all air out for a while. But everything looks good so far! No bad caps from what I can see, not even in the PSU. Can't wait to have everything put back together to test the PCR again!

Offline joeyvfx

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Re: PCR-A30 - any midi input is causing instant crashes
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2020, 04:22:03 PM »
After some strange issues with installing OS 9, I can happily report that the PCR is working with the Power Mac G4! ASIO and MIDI. What a journey. Thank you all so much for your help with this! Now if I could just find a way to get the cigarette smell out of the damn power supply...  ::)

Offline GaryN

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Re: PCR-A30 - any midi input is causing instant crashes
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2020, 10:41:10 PM »
Wow… I am truly happy to hear that it works! I guess we'll never know what was up with the other one.
Anyway, you're far better off with a "real" computer.

FYI: The PSU will come out if you have a Torx T-10 for the rear screw - which is also the same size as the rest of the rear panel if you still want to clean there too. You need to remove the front optical cage and possibly the main fan to first thread the wire loom back. Then, one (two?) screws inside plus the rear one and the PSU slides forward off of a hidden tab/slot thing. The case comes apart in two halves. It's VERY packed in there. I would just hold it upside down and spray in a 100% evaporating cleaner/solvent to flush the crud off.

Note the two fans… that's where 90% of the noise you'll learn to hate comes from. You can find endless debate and good model #s of quieter replacements by searching for "MDD cooling" here.

I have a buttload of MDD parts if you need something.

Offline joeyvfx

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Re: PCR-A30 - any midi input is causing instant crashes
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2020, 11:13:15 AM »
I actually already removed the PSU, cracked it open and tried to clean/desmellify it with some carefully applied vinegar. The only visible grossness was a very thin, light layer of gray residue on one of the inner walls, which was easy to wipe off. The vinegar worked perfectly to destink the outer plastics of the case, but it didn't do squat in the PSU. That's probably because I didn't get to every surface, since it is super dense. I definitely need to take another shot at cleaning it though. The smell fills the room after a while :P

Have you ever tried mounting a 120mm fan in place of the two 60mm fans? I read about someone trying that the other night but I forget where I saw it, or how well it worked for them. I feel like that would help with acoustics big time, but I'm not sure about cooling performance. That PSU gets pretty toasty.

Offline GaryN

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Re: PCR-A30 - any midi input is causing instant crashes
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2020, 03:16:10 PM »
I actually already removed the PSU, cracked it open and tried to clean/desmellify it with some carefully applied vinegar. The only visible grossness was a very thin, light layer of gray residue on one of the inner walls, which was easy to wipe off. The vinegar worked perfectly to destink the outer plastics of the case, but it didn't do squat in the PSU. That's probably because I didn't get to every surface, since it is super dense. I definitely need to take another shot at cleaning it though. The smell fills the room after a while :P
That's why i said: "I would just hold it upside down and spray in a 100% evaporating cleaner/solvent to flush the crud off." You can also poke at the crevices while wet with a small paintbrush.
Have you ever tried mounting a 120mm fan in place of the two 60mm fans? I read about someone trying that the other night but I forget where I saw it, or how well it worked for them. I feel like that would help with acoustics big time, but I'm not sure about cooling performance. That PSU gets pretty toasty.
That Frankenstein fan replacement required a bunch of custom duct fabrication and sacrifice of the optical cage (so no CD/DVD burner) for a small reduction in sound level and we never did hear how thermally effective it turned out to be.
Since you've had your MDD apart, you know how deceptively complex the airflow channels and such are. Messing with that should be attempted only if you have another MDD full of parts to replace the ones you just might burn up.
You can (and this is the practical solution) replace the two 60mm's with newer, quieter 60 mm fans as long as you match or at least near-match the airflow ratings. This is not that difficult. The secret of quieter 60mm fans is they use neodymium magnets that have much more flux vs. size and so the overall bulk of the motor is significantly reduced, allowing more airflow…simple. There are a zillion exotic fan makers and fans on the market that didn't exist when Apple designed and built the MDD. With all of the shit they got because of the noise, they would have absolutely used quieter fans if they had been available.

It's all a lesson in diminishing returns. I even have a "quiet box" - a very nice enclosure with a heavily insulated interior that encloses the entire computer. However, that requires more fans to move air in and out of the box! Those require sound-deadening zig-zag air ducts to keep the noise from those fans down. If you've ever tried build a studio or just quiet a room for studio use, you know that every time you identify and plug somewhere the outside noise is getting in, you suddenly begin to hear another crack, crevice etc. you didn't hear before, then another and another……

My advice is: Don't think you're a thermodynamics engineer because you can get free, unproven advice on the internet - except mine that is… ;)

Offline joeyvfx

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Re: PCR-A30 - any midi input is causing instant crashes
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2020, 09:07:33 PM »
Good point. I've ordered some evaporating radioshack cleaner & new fans, hopefully all goes well!

Offline DieHard

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Re: PCR-A30 - any midi input is causing instant crashes
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2020, 10:09:05 AM »
Good point. I've ordered some evaporating radioshack cleaner & new fans, hopefully all goes well!

You may have missed, when we last mentioned this stuff, no need to buy from radio shack; a good (and cheaper) alternative in available at any auto parts store, look for CRC QD "Electronic Cleaner" or equivalent; only $12 a can instead of $40, quick drying, non conductive

Offline joeyvfx

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Re: PCR-A30 - any midi input is causing instant crashes
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2020, 03:17:24 PM »
Ah, gotcha. I only spent 8 bucks on the can, not 40, haha. It looks like the CRC cans come with more for the same price, I'll look for that next time.

Offline IIO

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Re: PCR-A30 - any midi input is causing instant crashes
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2020, 05:39:47 AM »
if you really want to clean it you might also want to remove the sidepanels - at least the left one.
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