Little updates about PCI USB Card

[Angel]

I finally found a compatible PCI USB Card compatible with OS9 and G3 Beige.
There is only one and it is based on NEC D720101GJ Chipset.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/21AAAOSwgoNeWCen/s-l1600.jpg

Any other card will not recognized from Apple System Profiler.
The installation need some extensions:

HIDLibrary 1.5.5
SerialShimLib 1.5.5
USB Device Extension 1.5.5
USB Mass Storage Support 2.1.1
USB Software Locator 1.5.5
USB Support 1.5.5

I think i've recovered them from 9.2.2 update package with TomeViewer.

Some important info.

It's really difficult to find an used card, probably nearly impossible a new one, so you must make a lot of attention to the usb holes status. A deformation of just one millimeter, the hole touches the metal plate with the screw and the entire computer will crash because short circuit. I don't know if this problem is common on all old macs, but i've seen this type of crap many times on beige G3 for various causes. I've resolved insulating the plate with electrician tape and straightening with pliers the holes. I've not yet tested hardware like keyboard, mouse and hub but it will happens soon.

On software side, i've formatted an old 256MB in FAT16 and it worker perfectly but it's small so i've tested anothers bigger. A 16GB pendrive in NTFS wasn't read but the system offered to initialize it in HFS (or HFS+ ? boh, i haven't saw) at the correct size. I don't need a pendrive only for mac so i refused. A strange thing is happening with another pendrive. This one is 4GB in FAT32. At the first insert the system stated something like "rebuilding desktop", taking some time, then opened it. I've moved it on pc, copied on some big sit archives and returned on mac. When I tried to copy these folders on desktop, it moved the folders icons but doesn't copied them so if i remove the pendrive, from desk will disappear the pendrive icon plus these folders. Only workaround found is move the icons on desktop then duplicate them and obviously wait. Why is happening this idiotic thing ?
 
Ah, just to be clear: this is all slow like a hell. Jobs could also be a visionary but saw away the old but fast scsi for this jalopy isn't a good idea. I think he would have to wait at least the second revision.

[Angel]

Ehm.. no, my error. The duplicate workaround doesn't function: it copied the directory in the same pendrive. Now trying to copy in Macintosh HD

Update:

Not only with the FAT32/4GB but with every pendrive it is impossibile to copy directly on desktop. It is needed a folder where to copy in.
Really really stupid.

[IIO]

which ones didnt work for you? OS 8.6+ should be able to use any firewire & usb host card without the need of any drivers.

[IIO]

Why is happening this idiotic thing?

in MacOS9, every partition has its own desktop.

you can love it - or you can hate it.

if you want to copy files directly to "the" desktop (in the case of OS9: of your current system boot parition) you cant do it the same way you are used to from OSX or windows.

my personal workaround is to copy the files in the root of the partition. (i.e. drag the stuff from the removable media to the HD icon), then move them if they are for some reason required to be on the desktop.

[Angel]

in MacOS9, every partition has its own desktop.

I can understand this thing referred to the trash but it's a nonsense with the desktop. In every case if the pendrive has got an own desktop and i want copy to another desktop of another partition, it must be a simply copy operation from a desktop folder to another one. Straight and simple. Here they have fused two and probably more different things without any reason, an enormous UX design error.

[IIO]

when this was designed, most mac users had 2 disks with 1 partition each.

i believe getting data from a pendrive is the only situation where you really could need this (and where it sucks when you accidentially move stuff to the desktop)

and even then you might want to move the stuff from the pendrive to some other disk than the boot partition, and then it doesnt matter. until last year i had more than 40 HDs.

i find copying the data into the root of the destination drive not a big issue. you think a contextmenu where you can choose which desktop to copy to would be simpler?

[Angel]

There is a simpler solution: a special icon overlayered on the basic one. For example if you have a PSD file on pendrive and  move it on desktop, the PSD file icon will add something like "USB" in an angle of the bitmap or set a special color palette. If i remember correctly there is already a function for it related to aliases so there wouldn't have been much work to do. The idea should have been "i must recognize the origin of every icon on the fly", basic ux design concept.
What would have happened if there had been a lot of drives ? More than two hard disk, various pendrives, tape units and so on ? A big apples' mess

[IIO]

this would be very user specific and will work only for the combination of your machine with your pendrive.

however, i could imagine such a system using the textcolor of the items name to indicate certain volumes.

there are a few people here who might think it is fun to write such a tool.

...

i am already using different background pictures for different volumes - and i could not work without such gimmicks.

[Mat]

basic ux design concept.
What would have happened if there had been a lot of drives ? More than two hard disk, various pendrives, tape units and so on ? A big apples' mess

I like to bring in a complete contrary view of this behavior:
It is perfect user interface design!
Let's remember what Apple killed with switching to X and all the colourful effects. They broke the spacial browser and the idea to create a perfect illusion of what files, folders and programs and especially their icons are. 9s aim is to create the feeling that an "icon" IS the file. And with this behavior they did perfectly follow their logics. If an icon from any other mass storage than the boot drive is dragged to the desktop, and if it "stays" at the original drive this is totally logical, so it is not a mess, but contrary a perfect design. In fact it would be unlogical why a desktop should be connected to the boot drive, and if you put the icon from your stick to the desktop, it should be copied and thus you have immeditly 2 of the same files, ... I know it is a philosophical question, but they did a quite good job back than in staying consistant and logical, and in simplyfiying the abstraction layers of UX designs. That is why I love the spacial browser, and that is why I still think that no other Operating System ever was not able to hold a candle to Mac OS 9!

I for myselve even love this feature, as I can switch on the FW HD and immediatly ge its folders or program icons at the desktop, or as I can arrange my stuff at a stick, go to another computer at any place, and find it as I planned to! That is something completely different than to just "handing over data"!

And finally, If you like to copy stuff from your stick, just hold down the ALT key and it gets copied not the icon moved, simple as that.

[IIO]

i like it too, but i believe that i only like it because i am used to it for some 26 years.

there are a lot af arguments against it, his USB problem is not the only issue.

for example if you are starting to put a lot of picture files on the desktop of disk 5, and the other day you dont have disk 5 mounted but disk 17, where you now want to put a lot of audio files on the desktop, this creates quite a mess when you later for some reason want to mount both disks at the same time.

the ideal design would have been to allow the user to choose between the two systems.

[Mat]

the ideal design would have been to allow the user to choose between the two systems.

Holding down one key to copy instead of moving, is exactly what you demand/suggest!

And again, I think that any other behavior would be unlogical! Why should you always move the icons, if you are inside some folders, but when it comes to your desktop switch to copying? That simple stuff is why I love Mac OS 9, and what makes a huge difference! I am still always annoyed when I have to use other Systems.

The mess you are talking about still "makes sense", as it is doing exactly what you told the machine to do. I hate nothing more than computers thinking for me (e.g. closing the program when the last window gets closed, arranging my icons, sorting my files when I like them sorted in MY way, putting stuff to predefined folders automatically, … )

[IIO]

Holding down one key to copy instead of moving, is exactly what you demand/suggest!

no, not at all. copying the file on the dektop will not copy it into the boot drive (or a driver of your choice), it remains where it was.

Why should you always move the icons, if you are inside some folders, but when it comes to your desktop switch to copying

the desktop is different from finder windows.

there are many desktops, just like every volume has a finder window - but no chance to copy files into them by dragging, because you cant choose another desktop but the one of the boot drive.

The mess you are talking about still "makes sense", as it is doing exactly what you told the machine to do

making sense or "having an inner logic" is not necessarily the most important property of interface design.

and it is still only subjective. for some people a GUI doesnt make sense at all, and they prefer commandlines and consoles.

however, you ignored the original issue: how to copy a file from an usb stick to the desktop of disk 17?

[Mat]

Holding down one key to copy instead of moving, is exactly what you demand/suggest!

no, not at all. copying the file on the dektop will not copy it into the boot drive (or a driver of your choice), it remains where it was.

No, it does not remain! Drag and Drop any file while holding ALT and the file gets copied to the desktop (means copied physically to your boot drive). If you drag and drop without ALT it gets moved and remains at the original mass storage.

there are many desktops, just like every volume has a finder window - but no chance to copy files into them by dragging, because you cant choose another desktop but the one of the boot drive.

There are not many desktops! There is just one desktop, look at your screen, there is just one desktop!
There are different disks, and you can put stuff from your different disks to your one desktop! So if you like to copy a file from any stick to any disk, drag and drop it to the disk (it gets copied). If you like to put any file to the deskotp drag and drop it from the disk you like to the desktop. The icon gets moved, and an entry into your disks desktop.db will be crated, but it still ramains the one and only desktop that you can see (think about my posting above, that you can create a "setup" at dektops at other machines, with every mass storage. It will be this one single other desktop if you put your stick in another computer.
If you like to copy a file from one mass storage to another one and from there to the desktop, drag and drop it to the disk, and klick again and move it to the desktop. That is 2 klicks and one move (with spring loading folders) to perform 2 completely different tasks! Perfect UI design!

making sense or "having an inner logic" is not necessarily the most important property of interface design.

Oh, it is! But I am discussing this for 20 years now with people who either think that eye candy is most important (an who are thus mixing tools with presentation) or strange physicists and mathematics brains who think, thinking in 3 more abstraction layers and typing commands is a good idea

however, you ignored the original issue: how to copy a file from an usb stick to the desktop of disk 17?

As said, drag and drop it to the disk, release the mouse button, klick once again, and move it out to the desktop.

Thus you immediatly did what you liked to do, you "saw and used" the disk where your file is now physically, and it takes about 0,5 seconds longer than to copy it to the boot drive (if spring loaded folders is adjusted to quick reaction).

[Angel]

If the file/directory is the icon and the icon is located in a space defined like a logic representation of a real path, in that representation can be only two type of icons: a real icon/file and a pointer/link to a real icon/file. At least can exist hard and softlink like in windows/linux/os/2 but user must see ever two major types.
Nothing else. The two ones must be distinguishable every time and, no, is not user's task find a suitable a coloured/placing workaround in order to remember who is where.

Returning to hardware side of the life.

USB Mouse (microsoft) works but not 2nd button (must call with CTRL) and scrolling wheel -> resolved with USB Overdrive
Keyboard (trust 5 bucks crap) works but can't find a compatible keymap (looking for italian pc keyboard, something like us keyboard with some buttons replaced)

Actually I still have attached the ADB Keyboard just for power on (the button on the case is very fragile, every plastic in this thing is made for break up). Maybe if i remove it... The plastic is still crappy but oh... the original keyboard and mice are heavy and hard like a brick

External hub: i've tested a chinese hub/card reader. Tested only usb holes at the moment. Works but if i connect a second or more pendrive to the hub the system pretends to reset the connection to every pendrive attached at the hub, unmounting then remounting all of them. It seems not a good idea to add/remove something during a move/copy work.
Add: Here i think the major fault is because the hub. It can be a good idea try an external powered hub

[IIO]

No, it does not remain! Drag and Drop any file while holding ALT and the file gets copied to the desktop (means copied physically to your boot drive). If you drag and drop without ALT it gets moved and remains at the original mass storage.

then maybe you use a third party software which does that.

in my machines copying files to the desktop always copy them to the desktop of the same volume.

holding alt is the normal way of copying files, in case you dont know.

There are not many desktops! There is just one desktop, look at your screen, there is just one desktop!
There are different disks, and you can put stuff from your different disks to your one desktop! So if you like to copy a file from any stick to any disk, drag and drop it to the disk (it gets copied).

now i am no longer sure if we really use the same operating system.

The icon gets moved, and an entry into your disks desktop.db will be crated

okay, now i am sure that we dont use the same operating system.

because in MacOS9 there is an archive called "Desktop Folder" on every disk.

there is also a desktop database, but this has nothing to do with the desktop.

maybe you use OS9 ?

If you like to copy a file from one mass storage to another one and from there to the desktop, drag and drop it to the disk, and klick again and move it to the desktop.

that is exactly what i described above already as best practice - and what you denied because it wouldnt be neccessary.

[IIO]

If the file/directory is the icon and the icon is located in a space defined like a logic representation of a real path, in that representation can be only two type of icons:

that is the major issue for people not used to the system: unlike in finder windows, on the desktop you can not so easily see the path of a file. you could, using third party contextmenu items or the "get info" dialog, but both is not very convenient.

if your life depends on it, we will find someone who writes an applescript or folder action which does that

[Angel]

unlike in finder windows, on the desktop you can not so easily see the path of a file

It is precisely for this reason you must be absolutely sure about the position about what u are seeing without use get info or any addon

[Angel]

If i needed to restart via keyboard, where is the startup key on a common usb keyboard ?
Sometime the machine doesn't start correctly and the menu bar on top disappear. Without the original keyboard actually i must cut off the power: is there something less bad ?

[macarone]

>on the desktop you can not so easily see the path of a file.

To see path, highlight file and Command-R.  (Or File menu/Show Original

[Mat]

only two type of icons: a real icon/file and a pointer/link to a real icon/file. (…) The two ones must be distinguishable every time

Angel, that is the case. Aliases (thats how "links" are called in the Finder), are always with Italic Fonts. You will always see directly if it is a real file, or an Alias. What we are here talking abou is, that there are real files at the desktop, and you cannot see at which volume they are on, at the first look. Of course a "Comman + I" will laways give you immediatly this information.
For an Alias, "Comman + R" will open you the folder with the original, as macarone said correctly.

BTW, I am not sure how other Operating Systems solve this? How is Linux showing Icons from different volumes at the desktop, to make it possible to immediatly recognise which disk they are on?