Author Topic: Frustrating G4/Studio Vision MIDI problem  (Read 652 times)

Offline Fclum

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Frustrating G4/Studio Vision MIDI problem
« on: May 18, 2020, 11:27:03 AM »
Lately I’ve been dealing with a perplexing problem with my MIDI recording system. I’ve had this particular setup for many years and it has always seemed to work well. Let me start by outlining my system.

I’ve got several Macintosh computers of different vintages running in my studio but my issue only involves two of them. I have a 2012 Mac Pro as my main, "modern" computer running Mojave that contains two UAD-2 cards. On this machine I’m running the latest Logic Pro X version 10.5. Digital audio is handled by a Tascam DM-3200 with an IF-FW/DMmkII FireWire card. MIDI is being handled by a MOTU network consisting of a MIDI Timepiece AV/USB (ROM version 2.0.1) and a MIDI Timepiece II. All 16 in/outs are being used. The Mac Pro is connected to the MIDI Timepiece network VIA USB.

On the other end I have Macintosh G4 “Gigabit Ethernet” computer containing 2 Digidesign SampleCell II cards. That computer is connected directly to the MIDI Timepiece II using a Griffin Technologies gPort serial port adaptor which replaces the modem jack in the G4. The two MIDI interfaces are connected via their network ports with a standard MOTU 8 pin DIN Macintosh serial cable. Both computers can communicate with all the MIDI equipment attached to my studio. The G4 is running Studio Vision Pro 4.5.1 under Mac OS 9.2.2. Audio here is being handled over FireWire to a MOTU 824 which then outputs analog audio which is patched through a couple of patch bays as needed to the analog inputs of the Tascam DM3200 or wherever I need it to go.

Here is the problem. I had originally used both Vision and Studio Vision as my main DAWs since they first came out. I have always run a multi-interface MIDI network. I stopped using Studio Vision regularly many years ago but have kept the system on-line to do transfers of my older material if needed. For the last several years I have only sent MIDI out of the G4 for mixes, transfers, etc. but over the last few weeks I have wanted to work on some of this older material again recording MIDI into Studio Vision. The system works just fine with one exception. While the G4 broadcasts MIDI perfectly I can’t get Studio Vision to receive MIDI at all. I also can’t get Galaxy + 2.5 to receive SYSEX dumps either. Both programs can send MIDI data of all types just fine but won’t receive any. Note note ons, no SYSEX, no MIDI in of any type. Even if I connect a functioning MIDI keyboard to MIDI input 16 (which would bypass the network's serial connection between interfaces) I still get nothing.This is only a problem with the G4. The Mac Pro works perfectly.

The best I’ve been able to do is get OMS to give me a “MIDI RECEIVED” message when it is in test mode and I connect my DX7 directly to port 16 on the second interface. (The one attached to the G4). I was only able to get this working for a short time. Once I reconnected the DX7 to it's regular port it din't work and even when connecting back to input 16 I was unable get MIDI into OMS. Surprisingly, I used to use Galaxy+ as my MIDI librarian for a long time using this exact setup and it worked fine!

I’ve been struggling with this for about a 2 weeksnow  and I’m out of ideas. I’ve considered that it might be a network problem between the two interfaces. Just as likely I may be forgetting something stupid which is certainly possible given the length of time since I’ve really used Studio Vision with any regularity.

All I need to have the system fully functional is to have MIDI Input ability to Studio Vision and Galaxy +.

By the way. One other clue. If I try to use Clockworks from the G4 I get an alert stating that "the hardware connected to the Modem Port has gone offline. Retry? Or Forget port?" If I forget port everything seems to work as before but when I quit Clockworks the system crashes and needs to be restarted. Clockworks communicates with the entire network when initiated from the 2012 Mac Pro. Shutting down the Mac Pro completely does not solve the problem.

If anyone has any suggestions it would be greatly appreciated!

Offline GaryN

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Re: Frustrating G4/Studio Vision MIDI problem
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2020, 03:16:17 PM »
Holy shit………

So, you have a giant bowl of spaghetti and………   Nothin' to it. This isn't complicated at all……

All one can do from "way over here" is shoot at a couple of guesses and maybe get lucky because you're so lost in the tangle that you've overlooked something obvious.
* You have an almost- working setup. Your issue is MIDI not moving in ONE direction thru ONE interface into ONE port on ONE computer.
* I would normally start by double-checking all SVP settings BUT you say you can't reach Galaxy either.

What do they have in common? OMS
Something has very possibly gone sour in the OMS setup. That may be even if you can't see it.
The first standard troubleshooting step for this crap was always and remains:

Trash OMS prefs

One bit out of place there can and does bring life to a screeching halt. Trash the prefs and reboot, then relaunch any Opcode app. OMS will rebuild a new prefs file and if you're lucky and living right……

You may have to twiddle some small details again here or there in SVP and/or Galaxy that get cleared in this process. I honestly can't remember other than it depends on the complexity of your OMS setup (HAH!) but it's no big deal - especially if it fixes the problem.

Holla back. I'm dying to know what happens.

Offline refinery

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Re: Frustrating G4/Studio Vision MIDI problem
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2020, 01:32:16 AM »
i have a very, very similar setup to yours, except im running a huge MOTU PCI-424 rig on the OSX Mojave machine, and a Korg OASYS on the G4. (along with a PC and a bunch of other digital equipment, all synced up with a Big Ben)

you have to open clockworks on the G4, and set up specific routing to the 2nd port (port 17) which your G4 is on. OSX Clockworks does NOT have this functionality, it has to be done in OS9.
Second, something to be mindful for - i dont know if its a OMS bug or a MOTU bug or what, but on the G4, the ports are reversed - In OMS on the G4, 1-8 is actually 9-16 and vice versa. but there's a chance that could be particular to my setup. You'll know for sure if you set something up on Port 3 of the G4 and when you test it, you see port 11 lighting up instead.


you can see my post about this here - http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=4592.0   
very last post. note the screenshots.
got my mind on my scsi and my scsi on my mind

Offline Fclum

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Re: Frustrating G4/Studio Vision MIDI problem
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2020, 06:35:27 PM »
So, here's an update. First off, thanks for your responses. Not only did I trash the OMS preferences, I tased EVERYTHING related to OMS and reinstalled. It didn't change anything. The same problem exists.

Here are a few interesting tidbits though. After I reinstalled OMS I allowed it to scan for devices. It only detected one of the connected interfaces and created 8 generic devices for cables one through eight. I configured those 8 devices and added the remaining 8 on cables 9-16. When I tested the studio in OMS all of the devices responded properly to MIDI across all 16 cables. There was still no MIDI being received bu OMS in the G4 though.

Moving on, I tried to configure the MIDI Timepieces from the G4 using Clockworks. Colockworks told me that there were NO MOTU devices connected to the modem port of my Mac.

In an effort to get to the bottom of this I then completely uninstalled OMS and rebooted thinking that maybe if I ran Clockworks in FreeMIDI mode rather than in OMS mode I might be able to access the interfaces. Interestingly, when I tried to configure using Clockworks in FreeMIDI mode I got a message stating that there is a communication problem with the MTP AV/MTP II network and gave me the option to Retry or Cancel. I found it interesting that FreeMIDI(or Clockworks) was able to identify that I had those two interfaces connected but was unable to communicate with them. I then did a factory reset of the interfaces from Clockworks on the OS X computer and it did indeed reset the MIDI Timeoiece AV/USB that is connected to it but NOT the networked MTP II connected to the network port of the MTP AV/USB. I reconfigured the MTP AV/USB and then did a manual factory reset of the MTP II from the front panel. I was still unable to communicate with the MTP network properly from the G4.

I reinstalled and reconfigured OMS and of course everything worked perfectly except the G4 STILL cannot receive MIDI from anything!

I'm wondering now if it's a problem with the serial cable connecting the two interfaces. That will be me task for the morning.

Once again, thanks for the input. I'll keep you posted.

Offline Fclum

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Re: Frustrating G4/Studio Vision MIDI problem
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2020, 11:56:01 AM »
I still haven't had any success figuring this out. Any more ideas?

Offline GaryN

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Re: Frustrating G4/Studio Vision MIDI problem
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2020, 02:23:24 PM »
I still haven't had any success figuring this out. Any more ideas?
Sure… anybody around here can tell you I'm just chock full of shit  ideas.

When last heard from, you were going to check cable(s). Assuming you did that…
I suspect at this point, having spanked all of the software without success, that it is indeed time to start poking at your hardware.
The cable(s) were a natural place to start/check, although unless they get tugged on regularly they're not normally very likely to cause issues.
It seems from here that you have an issue with MIDI in one direction between the MTP and the G4. That was confirmed by Clockworks not seeing the interfaces when you ran setup again.
I say one direction because that was the original symptom: you could broadcast MIDI to devices but couldn't receive any back. Also, identifying interfaces with either Clockworks or OMS requires bidirectional communication - a failure to receive an response from a connected interface will be interpreted as nothing being there.

It seems clear (of course, it's easy to be certain about stuff from here…) that you have a hardware device issue. Either the Timepieces, the Griffin modem port doohickey or…oh wait, that's pretty much it.
You were able to briefly get MIDI from a directly plugged DX7 but that later failed. THAT is telling you something is sick along that road.
The very first step is open the G4 and poke and prod the Griffin. Clean the contacts on the connector. Liberally clean the plugs and connectors on the MTPs also. Say a prayer and see what happens.
If no joy, you have a problem. Without serious service equipment and documentation you can only test by substitution. I suspect you do NOT have known-to-be-good spares of these components on the shelf… or do you? If you do, you're both smarter and wealthier than I am.

So, what to do? Pull the stuff apart; Try to set of the very simplest path from the G4 to a test instrument (like the DX) you can. If you have another old known-good interface of any kind, try it. If you can reliably get MIDI to and from the G4, you'll have eliminated the Griffin as the culprit. Then try the MTPs one-at-a-time - maybe one will work and the other not. OR… maybe they'll both work individually but not when connected together.
If you're living right, you'll be able to narrow all of this down to one device and you'll then know what to do.

Be meticulous and thorough; suspect everything; trust nothing, and most of all…

Good luck.

Offline Fclum

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Re: Frustrating G4/Studio Vision MIDI problem
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2020, 11:26:08 AM »
Thanks Gary.  Good advice. I actually just got back on this problem this morning after a two break to watch the world collapsing.
I’ve tried most of what you suggested already. I changed the serial cables with no success And isolated the MIDI Timepiece II to see if that helped but no dice. I haven dug out the Griffin yet but I suppose that’s next. I downgraded OMS from 2.3.8 to 2.3.5 with no luck. Totally uninstalled and reinstalled everything on the G4 end.

I’m wondering if it’s an imcompatibility issue between the MTP AV and the MTP II.

Offline Fclum

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Re: Frustrating G4/Studio Vision MIDI problem
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2020, 10:26:26 PM »
I actually made a little bit of progress this evening. I unplugged the serial cable from my MTP II (Box 2, Ports 9-16). I left the other end plugged into the Griffin modem port adaptor on the G4. Next I plugged the end of the serial cable that I had taken out of the MTP II into Port A on my spare MOTU Micro Express. So now I have a setup with:
The same G4, the same serial cable that I had been using with the MTP II and the same Griffin Serial Port Adaptor in the Mac and all the same software. I connected my DX7 to in 1 and out 1 on the Micro Express. I then created a new OMS Setup document using only this interface and the DX7. I opened OMS Setup. put it in test mode and Voila! Bi-directional communication worked! Of course it was only between the computer and that one keyboard so now I know it's not the Mac, not the serial port and not the cable. It seems to be down to the MIDI Timepiece II. I'm wondering if the problem could be that I have owned that unit since it was brand new (early 90's) and have never changed the battery. The unit is ALWAY on so I don't lose my settings. I wonder if its the dead battery that's causing it to fail? Hmmmm. I just ordered a bunch of CR2032 batteries.

I feel hopeful.

Offline GaryN

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Re: Frustrating G4/Studio Vision MIDI problem
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2020, 03:08:35 PM »
It seems to be down to the MIDI Timepiece II. I'm wondering if the problem could be that I have owned that unit since it was brand new (early 90's) and have never changed the battery. The unit is ALWAY on so I don't lose my settings. I wonder if its the dead battery that's causing it to fail? Hmmmm. I just ordered a bunch of CR2032 batteries.

I feel hopeful.
Congrats! You have passed substitution testing 101……
That said, I feel your trepidation. It's a ying-yang thing. You really don't want the Timepiece to be bad because it's rather unique and would be very difficult to replace. On the other hand, if you've had it and had it running continuously for 25-odd years, you certainly can't complain either.
Pinning your hopes on the battery is a "Hail Mary" but it's certainly an easy, cheap test.

FWIW, if the TP is bad, based on the symptom, it's very likely a UART. (universal asynchronous receiver-transmitter) Those are the little chips that are the actual sender - receivers of MIDI to and from the interface. Because they are kinda "exposed" to the outside world, they can get hit with static spikes, voltage spikes while getting plugged in or out etc. That's not definitely the problem of course, but a prime suspect anytime a symptom like "it kinda works but it's weird" happens. If it comes down to it, those chips just might be socketed rather than soldered (because they're vulnerable so they're made to be replaceable) and easily tested by substitution - a new chip is probably only a couple bucks from Mouser or Digi-key Electronics. Hopefully though, that won't be necessary.

Quick thought: Do you know of any way to do a "complete reset" or similar to the TP? Is that even a thing? If so, always worth a try.

** Quick chuckle: I did a quick Google for TP II info and fell into Vintage Synth Explorer where I found……YOU! talking about it in 2017…

Offline Fclum

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Re: Frustrating G4/Studio Vision MIDI problem
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2020, 10:26:32 AM »
Well, there's a fair amount to report. I changed the battery in the MTP II and cleaned all the connectors with DeOxit. No dice. I started to consider replacing the MTP II but thought that there is a low probability that it's bad.

So...

Here's how this all started. I use both Digital Performer and Studio Vision on this computer so it has bot OMS ad Free MIDI  installed. I had always run FreeMIDI in OMS compatibility mode. Just for laughs I launched FreeMIDI. It wasn't in OMS mode and my whole studio setup was italicized and grayed out. I was scratching my head. I decided to rebuild the FreeMIDI set up and scanned the system and alongside the italicized setup FreeMIDI now gave my a functioning set up with all ny MIDI instruments connected properly. A ray of hope!

When I started this whole thing I had been using Clockworks 1.07. I had a copy of MTP/Express Console 2.0.4 on my drive as well. I switched from using Clockworks to using MTP/Express Console and it reported that I had no MOTU interfaces every time I opened it. Sometimes it would hard-crash my whole system while it was launching. Same reason I sopped using it in the first place. Finally, instead of endless "Retry"s I canceled and selected "Verify Network" from the utilities menu. It showed that I had one MTP II connected to the modem port. I checked the settings on the MTP II and it had reverted back to Cables 1-8. (I had assigned it to be Cables 9-16). I changed it back to 9-16, re-verified and VOILA it showed both MTPs but I was still getting no MIDI input in OMS's test mode.

Now keep in mind that it's been a few years since I've messed with this so I had forgotten much of what I knew but after tinkering around for a while I clicked on the little computer I can in the header bar of the routing window and I saw all my synths connected to the computer. After a few more minutes I remembered the Network Port butt=on up there too. Clicked on it and nothing was connected to it all all. I connected the computer Icon to it in both directions and connected all my instruments to the network Icon and the computer Icon and it worked!

OMS was giving me a "MIDI Received" message and I was able to do SYSEX dumps in both directions. I thought I had it.

Now, whenever I quit MTP/Express Console and relaunch I get a message saying that "One Of The Interfaces On The Modem Port Has Gone Off-line. Check Power Connections And Switches And Make Sure It Is Not In Direct Connect Mode". If I ignore the message and allow Console to open it gives me a setup with one Mac and one MTP set to Cables 1-8. When I go to the MTP II hardware it has indeed been reset to Cables 1-8. Changing it back to Cables 9-16 and verifying the network lets MTP Console see both interfaces but the cabling is wrong. I re-configured the routing and saved it as a document. When I launch MTP Console by double clicking the document I get the same reset (cables switched) but the routing is intact. Now I remember why everyone referred to this a "MIDI hell" back in the 80's and 90's..

After messing with this for a while I once again cannot NOT receive MIDI at the G4 end. Even so, I think that I had a real breakthrough and now I know it's a software issue. Might be just a matter of time to figure this out. It's a shame because back when all my friends were using this equipment too someone would have know the solution to this issue immediately or I could have called MOTU or Opcode about it. There is really very little information about problems like this online these days. Not surprising really but too bad.

Oh yeah, and I tried changing the Cable assignments on the two boxes so that the MTP II (directly connected to the G4) is 1-8 and the MTP AV is 9-16. No dice. When I launch Console with this setup it changes the MTP II to Cables 9-16! Conflict with the MTP AV. Crazy stuff!

Offline GaryN

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Re: Frustrating G4/Studio Vision MIDI problem
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2020, 02:54:49 PM »
Every time you respond you provide another little nugget of information and I get a tiny bit more insight into all of this.
So, here's my latest and greatest thought: Sometimes you can't see the forest for the trees.

By that I mean:

Now, whenever I quit MTP/Express Console and relaunch I get a message saying that "One Of The Interfaces On The Modem Port Has Gone Off-line.
* You have BOTH Clockworks and Express Console. You have tried and used BOTH of them on the same equipment.
* I'm sure they BOTH leave a preferences file on the computer.
* Those files are very likely conflicting with each other.

It's possible that Clockworks is checking in with the interfaces at startup and finding the settings don't match (because they've been changed by Express Console) it resets stuff to match what IT thinks is correct.

Do I know this for a fact? Of course not but it IS an educated guess with decent odds.

Pick one controller between Clockworks and Console Exp… probably / maybe whichever is newer is best assuming it has the features you need.
Go through your prefs in any MOTU folders and your System folder and remove (don't delete yet - just hide them away) all setup and pref files left by the one you are NOT going to use and see if THAT helps.
Actually, because it seems to be the culprit, I would try removing Clockworks first just to see if the "disappearing" interface STOPS disappearing.

We havin' fun now, right?

Offline Fclum

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Re: Frustrating G4/Studio Vision MIDI problem
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2020, 04:50:26 PM »
Good idea. BUT. The interface isn't disappearing. It is having it's box ID changed to the opposite of whatever I set it to whenever I launch MTP Console. If I reassign the box's cable numbers while MTP console is already open it stays that way and seems to work for a while although sometimes it hard crashes the whole computer for some reason. Next steps are:

1. Preference files
2. Extension/Control panel elimination

Offline GaryN

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Re: Frustrating G4/Studio Vision MIDI problem
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2020, 05:49:26 PM »
My bad. I was referring to "One Of The Interfaces On The Modem Port Has Gone Off-line."

The process will still be the same though… Keeping my fingers crossed for ya!

Offline paule

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Re: Frustrating G4/Studio Vision MIDI problem
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2020, 12:24:24 AM »
Hi all,
because I have almost a similar system, I have followed this thread. I am here on a G4 with gport and two Studio4 in MTP Mode working with Logic and ProTools.

If I would have such problem, I would start with looking for a bad "system extension", then restart the whole OS9 Machine with only the "Standard System Extensions" and duplicate this "Standard OS9 System Extensions" and only install additionally OMS. Restart.

This would be my beginning in order to find the culprit in the system extension. I don't think that it is a hardware failure, most of the time it was (in my system ) a system extension conflict which blocked the gport right in the system. Not the outgear.

system extension which I avoid (and already had problems in combination especially with the gport):
1.) stealth midi driver!!!! Don't install it.
2.) Timbuktu
3.) Palm Desktop
(Free Midi in combination with OMS is also not the best idea).

Hopefully this helps.
Best wishes,
Paule.

Offline Fclum

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Re: Frustrating G4/Studio Vision MIDI problem
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2020, 09:52:07 AM »
Wow! Finally solved. I eliminated every unnecessary Control Panel and Extension from my system folder and it finally eliminated the box ID reset issue. Looks like it's all working now. The only negative is that I don't know which extension is the culprit. Once I verify for sure that it's all good in the next few days maybe I'll try to figure that out!

Thanks for all the responses and ideas. I appreciate it very much!

Offline Fclum

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Re: Frustrating G4/Studio Vision MIDI problem
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2020, 09:54:40 AM »
Paule,

Palm Desktop was in fact one of the Extensions that I removed. I haven't used my Palm Pilot in years so I forgot that it was even in there. It makes sense considering that the Palm Pilot takes over the modem port at startup. Thanks for the advice.

Offline Fclum

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Re: Frustrating G4/Studio Vision MIDI problem
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2020, 10:07:39 AM »
Damn! After a hard shutdown and restart the problem has resurfaced. It worked for a 1/2 an hour and then I shut down to make sure it was fixed but it isn't. Oh well.

Offline GaryN

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Re: Frustrating G4/Studio Vision MIDI problem
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2020, 02:17:23 PM »
Damn! After a hard shutdown and restart the problem has resurfaced. It worked for a 1/2 an hour and then I shut down to make sure it was fixed but it isn't. Oh well.
That's OK. You now know that the issue is transient and can be solved.

FIRST AND FOREMOST: Did you replace the batteries? If the MTP II is changing status when turned off, THAT could just be the ENTIRE problem.

If that turns out to be true, don't worry - I promise not to laugh. I once chased after a ghost in the machine I was convinced was a design fault that turned out to be an intermittent cable.
If NOT that, DID YOU try what I said before - removing either Clockworks or express Console?

Clearly, something happens at startup where stuff is getting reset improperly and should not be.

You're close… keep after it.

Offline ssp3

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Re: Frustrating G4/Studio Vision MIDI problem
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2020, 06:04:41 PM »
I might be off by a mile, but I vaguely remember something about one of the Open Transport components (OpenTpt Serial Arbitrator? OpenTpt Modem?) interfering with MIDI stuff. Give it a try, it costs nothing ;)

Offline Fclum

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Re: Frustrating G4/Studio Vision MIDI problem
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2020, 04:10:36 PM »
Sorry I haven’t posted lately. I’ve got a couple of projects I’ve been working on and haven’t had time to revisit this again. I know about the Open Transport thing. You are correct but if I remember correctly I have that disabled already. Thanks for the tip. I’ll have a look in the next few days.