Author Topic: Need Help ... Midi to USB for external midi keys and control  (Read 1886 times)

Offline tunedbytad

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Need Help ... Midi to USB for external midi keys and control *os9only

trying to get midi hooked up simple and clean as possible on my G4 MDD 1.25uni / os9 / PT5 Mix+ station

bought this basic midi / usb cable:
* i thought I saw this on the midi interface StickY located here that it could use the Roland Driver*
**maybe I have the wrong driver downloaded in the extensions folder??**

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MIDI-to-USB-Interface-Cable-Adapter-for-Keyboard-Electronic-Drum-Music-Create-US/142883360741?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=441868886715&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2648



got this pop up error:
USB-2.0-Midi can not be found


Fully Functional ProTools Mix++ with SamplecellII/TDM
w/ OMS

if a different cable / interface is 100% needed to do this I will understand
*i have 2x MOTU Fast Lane book marked on ebay

Hooking up:
Novation SL25
Akai MAX 25
*are either of these avaiable via USB by chance

possibly:
Beatstep and Keystep in the future via Midi

Trying to avoid MOTU FreeMIDI

Hi, My name is Tad
I have a PMG4 problem
aka tunedbytad aka ProTools4 aka NotoriouSS

Offline IIO

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Re: Need Help ... Midi to USB for external midi keys and control
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2020, 01:55:30 PM »
the device says "built-in driver" and "supports windows".

so it can be that works as generic USB UFO in MacOS9 - or not - but i doubt it will require a device driver or runs with an alien one.

such solutions are very cool when you´re low on budget or if it is for your 3rd mac in the studio which only runs one app.

but most of these cables have just too small buffers and refuse to transport CCs correctly.
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Offline GaryN

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Re: Need Help ... Midi to USB for external midi keys and control
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2020, 02:53:55 PM »
if a different cable / interface is 100% needed to do this I will understand
*i have 2x MOTU Fast Lane book marked on ebay
Your Chinese wondercable is dependent on the computer recognizing a class-compliant USB>MIDI interface. That didn't exist in OS9 days.

Buy a FastLane. Be absolutely certain it has the original CD with it that contains the MOTU USB Driver System Extension.
This device is reputed to work in OS9. I say "reputed" because I don't know anyone who has ever used one but the documentation is thorough and the device appears to be worth a shot.
According to MOTU, it will work with either FreeMIDI, OMS or both. That would make it a very cool thing around here.

…and please: holler back and let us all know how it goes.

Offline tunedbytad

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Re: Need Help ... Midi to USB for external midi keys and control
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2020, 03:13:33 PM »
For the "budget China Cable"

I have this cable here if I can get it working for our community
it would be a piece of hardware that is easily accessible for all.

-is there I driver i should download or enable and try?
*is so what driver & from were?


For the Future
-what is the best simple midi interface I can get?
A.with easy to acquire drivers and software?
B.wont have issues deliver all of the midi performance?
Hi, My name is Tad
I have a PMG4 problem
aka tunedbytad aka ProTools4 aka NotoriouSS

Offline tunedbytad

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Re: Need Help ... Midi to USB for external midi keys and control
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2020, 03:33:21 PM »
Midi drivers for MOTU FAST LANE!!!


http://cdn-data.motu.com/downloads/freemidi/fm1.48.hqx


Looks like it will "possibly" run ALL of the MOTU Midi interfaces of theis era AKA MTP/AV

https://motu.com/techsupport/technotes/driverlog
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Offline IIO

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Re: Need Help ... Midi to USB for external midi keys and control
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2020, 04:17:35 PM »
yeah the installers are sall the same, similar for motu audio interfaces.

the cheapest "good" interface is a good question. there is this steinberg mouse with only 2 ports (but i think it doestn work in OSX if you want that in addition) and there should be really cheap ones from midiman/maudio, too.

roland/edirol also have a bunch of small audio interfaces with 1 midi in 1 midi out starting at some 25 USD.
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Offline vectrex

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Re: Need Help ... Midi to USB for external midi keys and control
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2020, 04:52:40 PM »
just tested one of these FastLane boxes and the freemidi routing via OMS froze my machine several times. Maybe someone with some experience can chime in here, if it is relevant to the topic.

« Last Edit: May 10, 2020, 05:46:44 PM by vectrex »

Offline tunedbytad

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Re: Need Help ... Midi to USB for external midi keys and control
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2020, 08:10:36 PM »
RANT MODE ON:

So I have had a G4 running os9 PT5 since it was NEW NEW like 1999
I have had a Midi Time Piece AV with that rig since the week the MOTU MTP/AV/USB came out
to be honest for 18+ years I have done way Less with Midi than i could or should have because of this.

MTPAV  has ALWAYS run better without FreeMidi
FreeMidi must be Bad when it makes you feel OMS is great

The navigation on the Hardware has this horrible confusing flow
**booting session in 44.1 vs 48K takes forever to navigat to the clock speed.
FreeMidi never made much sense to me
the software and hardware has always gave me techno Rage
*and I am not techno rage prone
it may be the only piece of hardware in my studio I have negative feeling about
in short I hate it ...I have always hated it ....
never known of a Midi box with sync usb and os9 compat that could replace it

RANT MODE OFF

if you have any input on better ways to run MIDI / MTC / MIDI control in the PT5 OS9 enviroment I am all ears. :-)
Hi, My name is Tad
I have a PMG4 problem
aka tunedbytad aka ProTools4 aka NotoriouSS

Offline GaryN

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Re: Need Help ... Midi to USB for external midi keys and control
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2020, 09:00:07 PM »
For the "budget China Cable"

I have this cable here if I can get it working for our community
it would be a piece of hardware that is easily accessible for all.

-is there I driver i should download or enable and try?
*is so what driver & from were?
Sorry. There is no such thing as a "universal" OS9 USB > MIDI "driver" to achieve class-compliancy in legacy systems.

Offline GaryN

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Re: Need Help ... Midi to USB for external midi keys and control
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2020, 10:21:36 PM »
just tested one of these FastLane boxes and the freemidi routing via OMS froze my machine several times. Maybe someone with some experience can chime in here, if it is relevant to the topic.

Oh well… that's not surprising. Actually, combining FreeMIDI and OMS opens up a unique can of worms that is supposedly overcome-able… supposedly. That said, I'll remind everyone that we've already gone through an endless hair-pulling smashed keyboards era of trying to make MOTU Firewire interfaces work with zero success.

MTPAV  has ALWAYS run better without FreeMidi
FreeMidi must be Bad when it makes you feel OMS is great

The navigation on the Hardware has this horrible confusing flow
**booting session in 44.1 vs 48K takes forever to navigat to the clock speed.
FreeMidi never made much sense to me
the software and hardware has always gave me techno Rage
*and I am not techno rage prone
it may be the only piece of hardware in my studio I have negative feeling about
in short I hate it ...I have always hated it ....
never known of a Midi box with sync usb and os9 compat that could replace it

RANT MODE OFF

if you have any input on better ways to run MIDI / MTC / MIDI control in the PT5 OS9 enviroment I am all ears. :-)

One must remember that FreeMIDI is kinda like when a drug company comes out with a new drug that's almost exactly like one that another company already has patented and is making a fortune on. So, they change the formula just enough, and give it a different name, but it's never as good as the original.

That said, FreeMIDI does work OK by itself. Trying to make it play nice with OMS however…


One must also remember that back in the day when Opcode Systems was in Palo Alto, they were directly across the street from Digidesign and the two of them collaborated on stuff. That's one reason StudioVision happily accommodates DAE and why PT happily accommodates OMS. The upshot of that is that PT, to the extent it actually does MIDI, generally does it better with OMS.

So, right now, there's a disconnect (pun intended) between legacy 5-pin MIDI and new class-compliant USB-MIDI.
Legacy systems like OS9 can interface with the world thru legacy interfaces like the Opcode Studio series BUT that assumes the computer has serial ports. Computers running OS9 with USB ports only have a different problem.
With vintage keyboards and modules, one can convert the USB to serial OR derive serial ports from a PCI card-based converter and use an Opcode Studio interface or similar.

That's all well and good unless and until:
You want to connect a newer keyboard, drum machine etc. that has ONLY a USB-MIDI connection. THAT then requires a much more expensive solution in the form of a USB-MIDI Host emulator which is a fancy name for a box to convert the USB-MIDI port on the keyboard back to two 5-pin MIDI jacks. Note that expense is certainly a reason you find ONLY USB-MIDI ports on inexpensive "new" gear like Beatstep / Keystep etc.

Just to make sure this is long enough to maintain my reputation
, this is all before you factor in MIDI 2.0. Although the 2.0 protocol goes to great lengths to maintain compatibility with older MIDI gear, it's clear the more complex nature of the 2.0 specs is driving the industry away from 5-pin DIN entirely in favor of USB.

To which I say: How fucking stupid can you get?

There is and has never been a worse, cheaper, less reliable, engineered-by-morons connector than USB. (Although Thunderbolt comes close)
I cannot conceive dragging a keyboard or module or anything to a gig and having to depend on one of those pieces of shit staying put and working properly for an entire set. And THAT'S assuming you don't plug it in upside-down on a dark stage and break the damn thing before you even start!

That however, is a rant for another day - BUT it is soon to be another pain-in-the-ass interface issue with OS9 systems.

Offline tunedbytad

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Re: Need Help ... Midi to USB for external midi keys and control
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2020, 12:29:54 AM »
Quote
Oh well… that's not surprising. Actually, combining FreeMIDI and OMS opens up a unique can of worms that is supposedly overcome-able… supposedly. That said, I'll remind everyone that we've already gone through an endless hair-pulling smashed keyboards era of trying to make MOTU Firewire interfaces work with zero success.

 :-[ a younger me resembles that remark. :-[

in the early 2000s
hours turned into days doing laborious battle with with OMS / Free Midi / MOTU MTP/ AV combo
just to get my roland controller to connect and work
Midi has never been my strong suit
all of this gear was new and expensive
finally success could program sample cell 2 TDM direct to ProTools with a Roland keyboard *not a mouse
Latency and quirky operation of the whole gaggle of parts n players was too much to take
I should have walked away....
vision went Red,,:o :o
cut my hand open pretty good beating the Roland Keyboard thru the desk.
*might dig up the carnage pics from my Nikon Cool Pics 990

later in 2004
So my 2+ year sample base album / project all programmed via mouse.... :-\

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The question is:
I have a good working MOTU MTP / AV in my full studio ,
But I need a midi interface for my mini ProTools rig that will be in a different location for song writing

will a unit from the M-Audio MidiSpot line work in the PT environment to get midi info in PT?
Or Do I go with another MOTU MTP / AV?



Hi, My name is Tad
I have a PMG4 problem
aka tunedbytad aka ProTools4 aka NotoriouSS

Offline IIO

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Re: Need Help ... Midi to USB for external midi keys and control
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2020, 03:49:12 AM »
THAT then requires a much more expensive solution in the form of a USB-MIDI Host emulator which is a fancy name for a box to convert the USB-MIDI port on the keyboard back to two 5-pin MIDI jacks.

it requires, first of all, an USB device driver.

so you are more or less out of the game for usb-midi-only devices older than some 2005.

can you say "blofeld"? :(
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Offline GaryN

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Re: Need Help ... Midi to USB for external midi keys and control
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2020, 02:40:22 PM »
The question is:
I have a good working MOTU MTP / AV in my full studio ,
But I need a midi interface for my mini ProTools rig that will be in a different location for song writing

will a unit from the M-Audio MidiSpot line work in the PT environment to get midi info in PT?
Or Do I go with another MOTU MTP / AV?

That would entirely depend on exactly what comprises a "mini ProTools rig".
Perhaps some clarification: It's not the "environment" that matters as much as it is the hardware.
At least, as far as the old hardware or old software (old PT, I assume) requires an old operating system that runs on an old computer…
It seems that all of the issues you hate are caused by trying to make old hardware (OS9 Mac) play well with new (Akai Max25 and similar)

That's before we even get to stuff like:
finally success could program sample cell 2 TDM direct to ProTools with a Roland keyboard *not a mouse
Latency and quirky operation of the whole gaggle of parts n players was too much to take

Granted, I'm not a PT fanatic, or even a fan, but I've been around a long time too and I have NO idea what that means
OR………

The navigation on the Hardware has this horrible confusing flow
**booting session in 44.1 vs 48K takes forever to navigat to the clock speed.

"navigate to the clock speed"??

I swear I'm not trying to be snarky or give you a hard time… I just can't comprehend what you're saying here.
So, please describe your "mini PT rig" carefully and accurately for the best possible response.

Offline tunedbytad

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Re: Need Help ... Midi to USB for external midi keys and control
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2020, 07:11:39 PM »
Gary,

thanks for taking interest in my topic
I have strayed off topic.
with story's from the past

To Sum up I have found the MTP AV USB to be a difficult piece of hardware
but that box does deliver functionality, i bring it up because it is what i have experience with
combined with the midi apps OMS and FreeMidi,
this era machine even in its hay day was and is frustrating working with midi *for me*

I am looking for a nice simple path for my 2nd DAW,
ProTools based w/ Midi In for SampleCell intended for song writing purposes

Consisting of:
G4 MDD
2x SSDs on IDE ATA100
PT Mix Core #1
PT Mix Core #2
Sample Cell 2  / TDM #3
Sample Cell 2  / TDM #4
external powered midi hub
Midi Interface
AKai MAX 25
*maybe a keystep and or beatstep later
USB stick drive to transfer to & from DAW1 and DAW2
no frills machine no DVD /  no FW devices / no modem / no internet / no network / less distractions

Hi, My name is Tad
I have a PMG4 problem
aka tunedbytad aka ProTools4 aka NotoriouSS

Offline refinery

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Re: Need Help ... Midi to USB for external midi keys and control
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2020, 01:40:46 AM »
sorry if this is a silly question but, is there a reason you *must* use FreeMIDI with the MTP AV in this setup? I use two networked MTP AVs in my setup, only with OMS, and they work fine this way. Clockworks still works fine with OMS, I can get into the interface and set up any routing I want. BUT, I dont use ProTools so I dont know if its a requirement for it to work with PT that you use FreeMIDI.

Also - you mentioned a problem with 44.1/48khz setting... are you setting this and the unit does not remember this setting when you power it off? If so, then you need to change the battery. I believe its a CR2032, but it might be a 2025. If you've had this thing for 20 years then it most certainly has gone dead by this point. The MTP AV should remember whatever you're setting it to when you turn it off. I had to replace mine about two years ago.

(edit) MOTU tech note about it - https://motu.com/techsupport/technotes/document.1999-08-30.5046010606
« Last Edit: May 16, 2020, 02:32:03 AM by refinery »
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Offline tunedbytad

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Re: Need Help ... Midi to USB for external midi keys and control
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2020, 08:52:07 AM »
refinery

I ditched Free Midii long ago
and yes use PT5 w/ MTP/AV without Free Midi

 :o :o :o
it has a battery!!!!
OMG thanks
my MTPAV has never remembered anything since the day I got it.
Did not know that it was a thing.
Hi, My name is Tad
I have a PMG4 problem
aka tunedbytad aka ProTools4 aka NotoriouSS

Offline IIO

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Re: Need Help ... Midi to USB for external midi keys and control
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2020, 10:06:07 AM »
hehe, one often is not aware of batteries in units. but it remebers settings, so.. :)
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Offline tunedbytad

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Re: Need Help ... Midi to USB for external midi keys and control
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2020, 01:45:16 PM »
I did a thing

and it worked great!







Hi, My name is Tad
I have a PMG4 problem
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Offline tunedbytad

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Re: Need Help ... Midi to USB for external midi keys and control
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2020, 01:49:58 PM »
I did another thing

functionality test

aka 2003 MPG4 MDD making music in the kitchen in 2020!!!!

https://youtu.be/RtnzLA-CLIg
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vInjTIzslA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vInjTIzslA</a>
« Last Edit: May 16, 2020, 02:01:27 PM by tunedbytad »
Hi, My name is Tad
I have a PMG4 problem
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Offline DieHard

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Re: Need Help ... Midi to USB for external midi keys and control
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2020, 02:14:59 PM »
Quote
One must remember that FreeMIDI is kinda like when a drug company comes out with a new drug that's almost exactly like one that another company already has patented and is making a fortune on. So, they change the formula just enough, and give it a different name, but it's never as good as the original.

OK, Gary and a few others here manage to make me spit my coffee all over the screen repeatedly; that is spot on, we have many topics on using "freeMIDI" solo, OMS solo, and using both... that being said, I never had to chase down a MIDI issue in OMS for more than about 5 minutes, yet FreeMIDI was always a bitch, troubleshooting, filtering, and checking if continuous data from a sequencer was overloading it. 
OMS is so straight forward, easy to test, etc.  I can't remember if I was ever able to resolve the "custom patch list" for my stuff in FreeMIDI, yet OMS was a breeze, don't give me utilities MOTU, I just want to text edit !

Offline GaryN

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Re: Need Help ... Midi to USB for external midi keys and control
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2020, 07:13:18 PM »
Sorry about your screen DieHard… I make it a point to never read the news on ANY forum with coffee in hand…

I do not own a MOTU interface - never have. SO, I rely on what I read and hear.
One thing I read more than once was the for some reason, you need to have and/or run FreeMIDI to use Clockworks.
That seemed to indicate that even if you want to use ONLY OMS, you would need to "keep FreeMIDI around" just to make adjustments to your interface with Clockworks.

According to Refinery, that's NOT true. If so, and you're running ProTools, there is not one good reason to have them both.
Apparently, tunedbytad knows this as well, since he NOW mentions he "ditched Free Midii long ago and yes use PT5 w/ MTP/AV without Free Midi"

That makes his last query much simpler re: What should i use for my "PT Lite" writing rig?
Since that rig turned out to be another entire MDD, I don't have a clue what to suggest.

The real question seems to be "Can I put together a more-or-less compatible PT rig to write on that I can then transfer the files to my main rig?"
…which make it a ProTools question -  which then boils down to issues involved moving PT session from place to place.

We also clearly have VERY different ideas what constitutes a "writing rig"

Am I close? This thread has been wandering over multiple subjects, so I'm not sure myself.

Offline tunedbytad

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Re: Need Help ... Midi to USB for external midi keys and control
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2020, 07:50:14 PM »
Gary,

I did settle on a midisport 2x4 for my PTlite song writing rig!!!
it is working great.

Quote
which then boils down to issues involved moving PT session from place to place.

Will be writing entirely with samplecell2 TDM & Access Virus TDM insterment /synth
bare bones system with limited TDM power and I/O
If I keep a copy of the samplecell insterment in the session folder it belongs to,
I can drag an drop a session onto a USB stick
this will be a very manageable size w/o little to no audio files

Quote
We also clearly have VERY different ideas what constitutes a "writing rig"
Am I close? This thread has been wandering over multiple subjects, so I'm not sure myself.

the point of this is to get me away from endless tangents of playing with all the studio gear
option over load / and tone exploration is a serious distraction for me.
as you can see I can barely keep this topic on the rails
Hi, My name is Tad
I have a PMG4 problem
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Offline IIO

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Re: Need Help ... Midi to USB for external midi keys and control
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2020, 06:24:03 AM »
that being said, I never had to chase down a MIDI issue in OMS for more than about 5 minutes, yet FreeMIDI was always a bitch, troubleshooting, filtering, and checking if continuous data from a sequencer was overloading it.

i find both to be completely idiosychratic nonsense systems and would have wished for a more linear setup and organisation.

it start with things like device list windows which can list no more than 6 units instead of providing a zoom bar and it doesnt end with not having a default location for "OMS setups" which easily let you change between different setups at startup of a project.

current coreaudio setup app is already quite a progress but still overcomplicated and buggy.
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Offline GaryN

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Re: Need Help ... Midi to USB for external midi keys and control
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2020, 02:41:25 PM »
i find both to be completely idiosychratic nonsense systems and would have wished for a more linear setup and organisation.

it start with things like device list windows which can list no more than 6 units instead of providing a zoom bar and it doesnt end with not having a default location for "OMS setups" which easily let you change between different setups at startup of a project.

As is so often the case, what you're saying makes no sense to me……at all.

My OMS setup window does everything I need it to do -
1) no "list limits" (I don't even know what that could be)
2) WTF is a "zoom bar" and how late are they open
3) OMS Setups DO indeed have a default location - in the OMS Folder (duh…) in System Extensions and they are easily accessed from the menu

I also don't know what you think "OMS setups" are supposed to be but everybody else sees them as Opcode intended: A layout and routing diagram of your studio and the MIDI devices in it - NOT something that needs to be accessed and changed often UNLESS you've decided to use the Setup window in some other way than it was intended to be used, in which case you're complaining Opcode didn't magically look into the future and foresee you doing so.

 "i find both to be completely idiosychratic nonsense systems and would have wished for a more linear setup and organisation."

If you're going to complain about what you perceive as "idiosyncrasies" in something, you should at least spell it properly.

Offline IIO

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Re: Need Help ... Midi to USB for external midi keys and control
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2020, 03:20:07 PM »

As is so often the case, what you're saying makes no sense to me……at all.


yes of course. that happens because you think that everyone must have the same perception or opinion as you and otherwise he is "wrong".

but this doesnt work with opinions.

[/quote]My OMS setup window does everything I need it to do[/quote]

exactly.
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Offline GaryN

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Re: Need Help ... Midi to USB for external midi keys and control
« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2020, 02:44:52 PM »
…and as also so often happens, you make statements and declarations ("i find both to be completely idiosychratic nonsense systems")

and when challenged to please explain / confirm / justify / elaborate upon what the Hell that means. you bail out.

I don't believe "everyone must have the same perception as me" - I asked you to explain specific things about your "opinion" where you named things ("list limits", "zoom bar" etc.) that I have never seen or heard of in OS9 Opcode software. (That's what people DO in order to communicate)
But when you either can't or won't and instead just throw shade at everything, you sadly become a waste of time for everybody.