Author Topic: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4  (Read 1402 times)

Offline tunedbytad

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Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« on: May 06, 2020, 06:30:43 PM »
Thank you Macos9Lives for your help
this is what I have collected for a clean install and super drive performance

I choose this approach for my personal setup for several reason
-minimal heat
-improved air flow
-crazy storage potential for a single 2.5" bay


Samsung Evo 860 M.2 Sata3 SSD
500GB3x even partitions
or 1TB with more partitions

SeriTek/1V4 Sata PCI Card
https://www.firmtek.com/seritek/seritek-1v4/

Startech "red" 4x M.2 3.5" Bay Adapter
https://www.startech.com/HDD/Brackets/4-M2-SATA-mounting-adapter~35S24M2NGFF



and







Hi, My name is Tad
I have a PMG4 problem
aka tunedbytad aka ProTools4 aka NotoriouSS

Offline tunedbytad

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2020, 06:33:19 PM »
Will post final install and possible case mods when I get farther along
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I have a PMG4 problem
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Offline mrhappy

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2020, 06:37:56 PM »
Lookin’ pretty groovy so far! Interested to hear how it all turns out.😬

Offline Roman323

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2020, 07:35:01 PM »
Thank you Macos9Lives for your help
this is what I have collected for a clean install and super drive performance

I choose this approach for my personal setup for several reason
-minimal heat
-improved air flow
-crazy storage potential for a single 2.5" bay


Samsung Evo 860 M.2 Sata3 SSD
500GB3x even partitions
or 1TB with more partitions

SeriTek/1V4 Sata PCI Card
https://www.firmtek.com/seritek/seritek-1v4/

Startech "red" 4x M.2 3.5" Bay Adapter
https://www.startech.com/HDD/Brackets/4-M2-SATA-mounting-adapter~35S24M2NGFF



and



I did this something to my Pismo, except one M2 stick - I must say OS 9 flies and Tiger really flies now.. Tenfourfox opens fast and nicely,

Offline IIO

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2020, 02:02:59 PM »
Will post final install and possible case mods when I get farther along

why did you choose that luxury enclosure over using 2x 2,5" solutions?

& does it support mirroring?
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Offline tunedbytad

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2020, 03:07:11 PM »
Quote
why did you choose that luxury enclosure over using 2x 2,5" solutions?

As soon as I saw the 4x Startech bay I though
"that's for me"  = "exactly what I am looking for"

I choose this approach for my personal setup for several reason
-minimal heat
-improved air flow
-crazy storage potential for a single 2.5" bay
-reduces black spaghetti cable nightmare of external FW400 enclosures / storage solution

Keep in mind this PMG4 is going in a recording studio
next to the audio racks boxed in under the desk in my Control Room
Any item I can purchase that will help control temperature and fan noise is money well spent

When I plug a Ribbon Mic into a cranked Avalon Pre you can heard the difference between the signers ...stubble or beard.
THE JOKE is: MDD fans or the Control Room Air Conditioning 100% poop all over any open mic and WILL ruin a track

Quote
& does it support mirroring?

not on its own...
works just like 4x independent m.2 ssd drive trays or holders
there is no circuit or interpretation to the m.2 drives
mainly a sexy mounting solution that allows for sexy m.2 drives
If you have software or a controller that will mirror  or raid independent of the bay holder then... yes.
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I have a PMG4 problem
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Offline XinSheng

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2020, 11:34:09 PM »
Thank you Macos9Lives for your help
this is what I have collected for a clean install and super drive performance

I choose this approach for my personal setup for several reason
-minimal heat
-improved air flow
-crazy storage potential for a single 2.5" bay


Samsung Evo 860 M.2 Sata3 SSD
500GB3x even partitions
or 1TB with more partitions

SeriTek/1V4 Sata PCI Card
https://www.firmtek.com/seritek/seritek-1v4/

Startech "red" 4x M.2 3.5" Bay Adapter
https://www.startech.com/HDD/Brackets/4-M2-SATA-mounting-adapter~35S24M2NGFF


Very nice. Did you just recently buy the SeriTek card? Did it take long to receive it? I read a few things about it taking a very long time with hardly any communication from the vendor. I haven't decided if I want a Sata PCI card yet. Any info would be appreciated. Thank you.

Offline tunedbytad

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2020, 12:03:46 AM »
here is my review

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,5483.0.html

Quote

Very nice. Did you just recently buy the SeriTek card? Did it take long to receive it? I read a few things about it taking a very long time with hardly any communication from the vendor. I haven't decided if I want a Sata PCI card yet. Any info would be appreciated. Thank you.
Hi, My name is Tad
I have a PMG4 problem
aka tunedbytad aka ProTools4 aka NotoriouSS

Offline IIO

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2020, 04:25:24 AM »

-reduces black spaghetti cable nightmare of external FW400 enclosures / storage solution

i was just comparing it to two 2,5" units - which you could stick into the machine using tape or cable ties.

of course it is a super sexy solution. as you need only 2 of them, they will fit into an MDD easily. (in my experience at the front slots it is quite difficult to connect with SATA cables to a 3,5" something.)

Quote
If you have software or a controller that will mirror or raid independent of the bay holder then... yes.

i was wondering about the 2 bays per bus because if it could do raid on its own, what would happen if you use raid modes from the seritek, too? :)

so its double bays are only useful to combine 2 1 TB cards if you still have them flying around instead of buying a new 2 TB card. kinda like non-raid spanning? never saw something like that until now.
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Offline Nymunariya

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2020, 04:39:54 AM »
do PowerMac G4s not support a direct PCI->m.2 (or mSATA) or do you need to go PCI->SATA->m.2?
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Offline IIO

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2020, 05:31:49 AM »
good question. but are there many cards for PCI-X or PCI? for PCIe even specific "mac" cards start at 20 euros.
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Offline Nymunariya

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2020, 05:55:30 AM »
ebay doesn't seem to have any pci-x m.2 or msata cards. And ebay thinks I mean "pcie m.2" when I type "pci m.2" (in quotes).  Maybe I'll have to look elsewhere.
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Offline IIO

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2020, 06:03:18 AM »
i just had the same experience with ebay classified. :)

probably there are 2 or 3 models, but they are hard to find when search engines always remove the - from "pci-x"
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Offline tunedbytad

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2020, 10:51:35 AM »
m.2 sata3 is just sata3 with a different connector
m.2 evo 860 is the same a s a 2.5" drive evo 860 drive just plugs in different
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Offline IIO

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2020, 11:34:00 AM »
the difference is that you save some space when it is directly on the PCI card. so you can use 4 of those in addition to the 4 HDs. ;)
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Offline tunedbytad

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2020, 11:40:19 AM »
Quote
the difference is that you save some space when it is directly on the PCI card. so you can use 4 of those in addition to the 4 HDs

m.2 is very confusing

because there is two standards in the same m.2 format

m.2 * Sata
m.2 * PCIe some times called NVME

PCIE NVME is magnitudes faster / cheaper / possibly larger

Pcie is a M.2 that uses PCI architecture and the full modern PCI bus speed
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Offline IIO

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2020, 11:45:27 AM »
i´ve lost you. :)

Nymunariya is talking about a PCI card where you can directly mount whatever kind of SSD.

there are quite common for PCIe but we didnt find any PCI or PCI-X cards. do they exist?
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Offline tunedbytad

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2020, 06:55:45 PM »
i´ve lost you. :)

Nymunariya is talking about a PCI card where you can directly mount whatever kind of SSD.

there are quite common for PCIe but we didnt find any PCI or PCI-X cards. do they exist?

that is what I am trying to say
m.2 PCIE/NVME is for PCIE motherboards and chipsets
these are only pin adapters as the drive itself speaks PCIE buss
these are very common you can get them all day long on amazon / ebay / wish for under $10

Drive on card PCIE or PCI sata is very UNCOMMEN
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Offline IIO

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2020, 03:06:52 AM »
hm, i still dont understand. :)

the most common is PCIe to m.2 / mkey (picture)

(what´s it do with nvme?)

the question is if there are PCI-X cards with the same functionality, too, so that you can use them in a G4.

or do these cards ONLY support nvme ssds?
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Offline tunedbytad

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2020, 05:39:30 PM »
That card only supports only PCIE (NVME) Drive and in a PCIE slot
it will require a special PCIE buss chipset / bios to boot
it require a special range or chipset / bios to recognize the drive

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Offline tunedbytad

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Offline Nymunariya

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2020, 12:32:38 AM »
so if m.2 * sata is just regular SATA, then it should work with a simple PCI -> m.SATA adapter, just like mSATA?


I was browsing ebay for "sata m.2 pci" and saw a bunch that said m.2 NGFF.  After a quick search I found this explanation:

Quote
The NGFF M.2 SSDs are often referred to as M.2 SSDs though M.2 is the name of the connector used. The NGFF (Next Generation Form Factor) is a replacement specification for the mSATA standard. It is a refinement of the mSATA standard and uses a new connector, known as M.2, that supports a wide range of devices. The M.2 connector is not compatible with mSATA devices.

While the mSATA interfaces only support different versions of SATA (i.e. SATA 1.0 to SATA 3.0), the M.2 connector allows SATA 3.0, USB 3.0, and PCIe 3.0 devices to be used provided the motherboard supports the same.

NGFF M.2 SSDs share the same specifications as SATA and mSATA SSDs but use a different connector. They have similar read and write speed and will give an equal performance boost as SATA 3 and mSATA SSDs. SATA NGFF M.2 SSDs are a good choice for users whose desktop, laptops or computing devices feature M.2 slots.

So basically, if m.2 sata is the same as mSATA with just a different connector, then it should work over pci, assuming msata works over pci--well, we know SATA works over pci already.

I just bought ICY Box IB PCI210 2x m.2 SATA SSD to PCIe 2.0 x1 card with raid function.  If it works, then I don't have to worry about losing all my data with molex to sata.  And if it doesn't work ... well I guess it's a good time as any to install some ssds into my pc.
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Offline IIO

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2020, 06:07:57 AM »
combo card!

für... oder... sehr schön.

but of course the host controller interface is "e" again. :)
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Offline IIO

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2020, 06:15:54 AM »
I was browsing ebay for "sata m.2 pci" and saw a bunch that said m.2 NGFF.

they sometimes note "NGFF" also when it is NVMe, and that still wouldnt be wrong. NGFF is just an older name for m.2

always be careful not to buy NVMe disks or NVMe-only controllers unless we find a good solution (for PCI or PATA) ;)

even worse - as you said already - they now sometimes also call mSATA "NGFF".


Quote
So basically, if m.2 sata is the same as mSATA with just a different connector, then it should work over pci, assuming msata works over pci--well, we know SATA works over pci already.

sure, such a PCI card would be nothing more than the usual seritek SATA cards but with an integrated m.2 SATA plug instead of cables.

it would be a combination of two technologies from different decades, but hey, we even have m.2 adapters for IDE, isnt it?

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2020, 06:29:21 AM »

there is a lot of funny stuff out there which i have never seen before. :D

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2020, 06:51:53 AM »
that we want, but for PCI(-X)

in an ideal case it would of course run driverless and support non-raid. then it would give you the same functionality (adding 4*2 TB storage to your computer via 1 PCI interface) but without cables.

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Offline Nymunariya

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2020, 11:47:07 AM »
geil. 

I'll take one in purple.
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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2020, 11:58:46 AM »
macht dann 229 euro.
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Offline XinSheng

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2020, 01:45:22 PM »
geil. 

I'll take one in purple.

Geil as in Ich bin heisse? or as in Das ist cool? Sorry, brought back some memories. I miss some parts of living in Germany. I have a hankering for a mett brotchen now.

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2020, 08:46:25 PM »
its highly unlikely that a PCI-X to m2 adapter exists. m2 was developed long after PCI-X fell out of favor, and most PCI-X systems were servers which have likely mostly been retired by now. I'd imagine if one exists, its going to come off a site like alibaba from some random Chinese vendor. the market for such a thing would be tiny, probably the only people looking for something like this would be Mac enthusiasts like us, since there were never very many desktop PCs with PCI-X.
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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2020, 04:54:59 AM »
random chinese rubbish is what i was hoping for.

ATA is about as old as PCI and the chinese still make m2 adapters.

i mean... hell, it would be 10 dollars instead of the 129 for the seritek, so dont destroy my dreams^^
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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2020, 08:11:03 PM »
Something about NVMe and G4 and G5

I wrote NVMe driver and it works in G5. With a StarTech adaptor I don't see, why it would not work in G4.

With one caveat: so far the only NVMe drive which has remote chances to become PowerPC bootable is the Samsung 950 Pro.

That drive has an BIOS-like area and it can be flashed.
Except, that Samsung does not provide details how to flash.

The earliest reasonably supported OS for NVMe is Leopard. Earlier OS-es do not have the proper API-s how to "dissect" the physical memory regions in order to "feed" them into NVMe engine.
I am not sure (will need to look at it again) "9" has such API-s either.

That means, if I would make a "9" driver or pre-Leopard driver for NVMe I would need to restrict every transfer to 128K or even lower - and after that I would need to double-buffer everything into a physically contingous well-aligned internal buffer. That would slow down the entire transfer and any advantage of NVMe would disappear.

Under Leopard a non-bootable NVMe drive in a 2005 G5 with PCIe slots can achieve over 700 MB/Sec on reads and writes.


The NVMe 1.3 standard has a provision that an NEVMe drive may have a dedicated ROM area for BIOS.
Unfortunately not a single NVMe drive does have this feature - it is not mandatory.
Samsung 950 Pro was born before the NVMe 1.3 and while it has that feature, it has pretty much nothing to do with NVMe 1.3 standard, it's not public.

I do have a pair of 950 Pro 1 TB drives, they have other problems (was unable to use MSI or MSI-X on MacPro-s, only legacy).
So it's not the best drive to have.

960 Pro is better for G5, 970 somewhat better for Intel.
The Mac Pro 1.1 wasn't tested much, I don't have that machine here at this moment.
Tested: G5 Quad, MacPro 5.1 and up (4.1 updated to 5.1).

Offline DieHard

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2020, 09:33:15 PM »
Quote
That means, if I would make a "9" driver or pre-Leopard driver for NVMe I would need to restrict every transfer to 128K or even lower - and after that I would need to double-buffer everything into a physically contingous well-aligned internal buffer. That would slow down the entire transfer and any advantage of NVMe would disappear.

That's exactly what I thought ! ...... NOT, lol.

It's like you walk around thinking your all that and then SATAman, obviously a member of the remaining Annunaki, spouts out all this secret divine knowledge. My God, man, I always read your posts at least 3 times.  Light bulbs going off... BAM

Quote
Under Leopard a non-bootable NVMe drive in a 2005 G5 with PCIe slots can achieve over 700 MB/Sec on reads and writes.
OK, that is just plain sick, I paid a kings ransom for my Mercury Accelsior (https://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/SSDPHW2R960/) about 4 years ago for my main Mac Pro and thought that at about 800MB/sec, nothing was even close, and you are saying in a 2005 G5... 700 MB/Sec, what sorcery is this ?  I appreciate all the cool information you have posted !

Lastly, for those on a budget, even though we have highlighted many storage technologies here, I was wondering if you can give us the "Sataman" guidelines of what you consider the two best bang for the bucks as far as a bootable OS 9 SSD solutions... one using the native PATA, and one as using a PCI card.

Offline FBz

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2020, 10:32:13 PM »
...obviously a member of the remaining Annunaki...

...the "Sataman" guidelines of what you consider the two best bang for the bucks as far as a bootable OS 9 SSD solutions... one using the native PATA, and one as using a PCI card?

Yes, please. ;)

Offline tunedbytad

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2020, 11:35:46 PM »
Quote
I was wondering if you can give us the "Sataman" guidelines of what you consider the two best bang for the bucks as far as a bootable OS 9 SSD solutions... one using the native PATA, and one as using a PCI card.

yes plz
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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2020, 04:04:25 AM »
Quote
That means, if I would make a "9" driver or pre-Leopard driver for NVMe I would need to restrict every transfer to 128K or even lower - and after that I would need to double-buffer everything into a physically contingous well-aligned internal buffer. That would slow down the entire transfer and any advantage of NVMe would disappear.

That's exactly what I thought ! ...... NOT, lol.

It's like you walk around thinking your all that and then SATAman, obviously a member of the remaining Annunaki, spouts out all this secret divine knowledge. My God, man, I always read your posts at least 3 times.  Light bulbs going off... BAM

Quote
Under Leopard a non-bootable NVMe drive in a 2005 G5 with PCIe slots can achieve over 700 MB/Sec on reads and writes.
OK, that is just plain sick, I paid a kings ransom for my Mercury Accelsior (https://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/SSDPHW2R960/) about 4 years ago for my main Mac Pro and thought that at about 800MB/sec, nothing was even close, and you are saying in a 2005 G5... 700 MB/Sec, what sorcery is this ?  I appreciate all the cool information you have posted !

Lastly, for those on a budget, even though we have highlighted many storage technologies here, I was wondering if you can give us the "Sataman" guidelines of what you consider the two best bang for the bucks as far as a bootable OS 9 SSD solutions... one using the native PATA, and one as using a PCI card.

For the native PATA I think the best is the SATA <--> PATA converter, but only few are good. There was a topic earlier about it.
Also, there is a very bad batch of Kingston drives on eBay, I got a few from a seller from Slovenia, they kind-of work - but have nothing to do with genuine Kingston. This is a known problem, use Samsung (pr other known brand) instead. For older machines like Sawtooth 120GB drives are good enough.
The good SATA <--> PATA converters can handle master-slave as well, so you can use two.

For PCI-X card I think the current best is the 1V4, which is going to be de-throned by the updated 3124, with "9" support.
Some other good future candidates are the Marvell 6042-based boards (have 7042-based driver which was sold commercially to quite a few customers).
The "9" and FCode could happen.

Than the "Frodo" (Braodcom RAIDCORDE) which looks very simple and is very fast, sold for $20 and up and the chip is inside of some G5-s as I know, with open source "X" driver written by Larry Barras at the time he was at Apple.

I have two combo SATA/PATA cards with BIOS chip from VIA, it's a simple PCI card - but it has 3 SATA ports and one PATA.
It has a quite well-written documentation and I think, I can reuse much of the recent written code for 680-3112-3114 and hopefully it has no sleep problem with the Quicksilver.

The 680-3112-3114 code is largely done, at least the PowerPC part. The Intel part is important for the testing purpose, working on it but not today, today is SAS day.


The performance of 680-3112-3114 is clearly not up-to-date, is very far from 3124 - but that's the fastest I can do.
Once it is done I will go back to 3124 because it is clearly a better choice. All I miss is the "9" driver which can be done based on the new "X".
It could happen, the first approach of the "9" driver for 3124 won't have port multiplier support.

Sorry, the entire virus situation was a huge 3-moth setback for everything.

Offline IIO

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2020, 05:12:06 AM »
Tested: G5 Quad, MacPro 5.1 and up (4.1 updated to 5.1).

just to make it clear for future reference:

when he talks about G5 quad, that still means "only" PCIe.
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Offline tunedbytad

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2020, 11:10:17 AM »
Quote
For PCI-X card I think the current best is the 1V4, which is going to be de-throned by the updated 3124, with "9" support.

were do I sign up?

I would join a Patreon for this..

while we are in Magic Wand / Genie in a Bottle Wish mode

G4 AGP DUAL DVI video card with driver for OS9
the G5 9600 AGP card works in a PMG4 in OSX but is a turd in OS9
that seems like someone smarter than me could figure that out
Hi, My name is Tad
I have a PMG4 problem
aka tunedbytad aka ProTools4 aka NotoriouSS

Offline (S)ATAman

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2020, 12:02:38 PM »
Quote
That means, if I would make a "9" driver or pre-Leopard driver for NVMe I would need to restrict every transfer to 128K or even lower - and after that I would need to double-buffer everything into a physically contingous well-aligned internal buffer. That would slow down the entire transfer and any advantage of NVMe would disappear.

That's exactly what I thought ! ...... NOT, lol.

It's like you walk around thinking your all that and then SATAman, obviously a member of the remaining Annunaki, spouts out all this secret divine knowledge. My God, man, I always read your posts at least 3 times.  Light bulbs going off... BAM

Quote
Under Leopard a non-bootable NVMe drive in a 2005 G5 with PCIe slots can achieve over 700 MB/Sec on reads and writes.
OK, that is just plain sick, I paid a kings ransom for my Mercury Accelsior (https://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/SSDPHW2R960/) about 4 years ago for my main Mac Pro and thought that at about 800MB/sec, nothing was even close, and you are saying in a 2005 G5... 700 MB/Sec, what sorcery is this ?  I appreciate all the cool information you have posted !

Lastly, for those on a budget, even though we have highlighted many storage technologies here, I was wondering if you can give us the "Sataman" guidelines of what you consider the two best bang for the bucks as far as a bootable OS 9 SSD solutions... one using the native PATA, and one as using a PCI card.

Thanks for compliments - LOL - there is not much of extraterrestrial technology, more something like applying the new technology to the past.
The biggest problem with legacy is that PCI and PCI-X are obsolete.

The biggest problem with modern times is that the best Apple technology suitable for many modern controllers is the "IODMACommand". Unfortunately it is reliably only in Leopard, thus all earlier releases of macOS present a challenge. It is still possible of course - just requires significant extra efforts.

"9" would be possible if a reliable PCIe x4 <---> 64-bit PCI bridge would be available commercially. Otherwise the speed is very limited.
Even if it would be possible, the special requirements of NVMe would be an extra hurdle. Not an impossible hurdle, but a lot of work.


I am starting to think that a well-made emulator with proper hardware abstraction is just easier.
In other words, a modern machine with proper emulation, including certain PCI emulation (you need "9" for certain goals? Let's solve these goals by adjusting the devices) is an easier path.

The fast speed of NVMe on G5 was to expected. In MacPro 5.1 and up that speed is about twice, compatibility is for Snow Leopard and up. The MacPro 1.1 - 3.1 (in PCIe 1.0 slots) has no speed advantage over G5. 3.1 is just my guess, I don't have that machine anymore, but not a big loss.

Offline (S)ATAman

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2020, 12:07:20 PM »
Quote
For PCI-X card I think the current best is the 1V4, which is going to be de-throned by the updated 3124, with "9" support.

were do I sign up?

I would join a Patreon for this..

while we are in Magic Wand / Genie in a Bottle Wish mode

G4 AGP DUAL DVI video card with driver for OS9
the G5 9600 AGP card works in a PMG4 in OSX but is a turd in OS9
that seems like someone smarter than me could figure that out

The easiest magic wand is called 3124, the MacOS 9 driver is scheduled and won't be a big challenge.

At this time want to finish the 680-3112-3114 driver.
Do not expect big wizardy regarding that project, 680-3112-3114 is not a very fast chip, but reliable enough and the new code base can be re-used for many more things.

Offline refinery

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2020, 05:16:11 AM »


The easiest magic wand is called 3124, the MacOS 9 driver is scheduled and won't be a big challenge.

At this time want to finish the 680-3112-3114 driver.
Do not expect big wizardy regarding that project, 680-3112-3114 is not a very fast chip, but reliable enough and the new code base can be re-used for many more things.


Eagerly awaiting this; the random 3124 I got off ebay is ready and willing!
It does not have the "standard" chip though, but the outlet is socketed. Will I need to swap it out for another chip?
got my mind on my scsi and my scsi on my mind

Offline XinSheng

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2020, 09:18:07 AM »
Quote
That means, if I would make a "9" driver or pre-Leopard driver for NVMe I would need to restrict every transfer to 128K or even lower - and after that I would need to double-buffer everything into a physically contingous well-aligned internal buffer. That would slow down the entire transfer and any advantage of NVMe would disappear.

That's exactly what I thought ! ...... NOT, lol.

It's like you walk around thinking your all that and then SATAman, obviously a member of the remaining Annunaki, spouts out all this secret divine knowledge. My God, man, I always read your posts at least 3 times.  Light bulbs going off... BAM

Quote
Under Leopard a non-bootable NVMe drive in a 2005 G5 with PCIe slots can achieve over 700 MB/Sec on reads and writes.
OK, that is just plain sick, I paid a kings ransom for my Mercury Accelsior (https://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/SSDPHW2R960/) about 4 years ago for my main Mac Pro and thought that at about 800MB/sec, nothing was even close, and you are saying in a 2005 G5... 700 MB/Sec, what sorcery is this ?  I appreciate all the cool information you have posted !

Lastly, for those on a budget, even though we have highlighted many storage technologies here, I was wondering if you can give us the "Sataman" guidelines of what you consider the two best bang for the bucks as far as a bootable OS 9 SSD solutions... one using the native PATA, and one as using a PCI card.

Looks like it is his version of the underpants gnomes profit plan. Or a collorary to the Arthur C. Clark rule. Any sufficiently advanced task to the observer is indistinguishable from magic. Which makes (S)ATAman a wizard or an Other. I really wish there were some primers or books or something to read up on so that I could start to mess around with this stuff. Probably be months or years before I could do anything more than a hello world type project. I should probably get a computer desk again, first though!  ;)

Offline IIO

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2020, 10:02:00 AM »
no magic, PCIe 1.1. has a bandwidth of 8Gbit/s
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Offline XinSheng

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2020, 01:23:47 PM »
no magic, PCIe 1.1. has a bandwidth of 8Gbit/s

Once you know, of course it is no longer magic. I had some "colleagues" ask me about some error message they were always getting, and if I knew what it meant. Yes, sure. It means that your running tally is no longer a double. It's not really hurting anything so don't worry about it, just muddle through it. <Blank stares> Your "container" is too small. You'll just have to keep restarting things until it finishes. <Blank stares> Your library got too large and your tool is old and wasn't particularly well coded across multiple disciplines, and doesn't have exception handling. It's what happens when something homebrew is made by a "hobbyist" and then you use it for office work, and that guy leaves and no one left has the basic skillset to update/fix it.

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #44 on: May 19, 2020, 10:32:12 PM »


The easiest magic wand is called 3124, the MacOS 9 driver is scheduled and won't be a big challenge.

At this time want to finish the 680-3112-3114 driver.
Do not expect big wizardy regarding that project, 680-3112-3114 is not a very fast chip, but reliable enough and the new code base can be re-used for many more things.

Eagerly awaiting this; the random 3124 I got off ebay is ready and willing!
It does not have the "standard" chip though, but the outlet is socketed. Will I need to swap it out for another chip?


Is it made by Dawicontrol? I do have one of their 3124 controllers.
The new "X" code for 3124 is there, if anyone wants to try it out, feel free to ask.

Currently stuck with 680-3112-3114 in Intel, I think that my PCI-PCIe bridge (the cheap one, made in China)  controller is an other junk.
Looked up the Amazon, nothing, but bad reviews. The Startech (made in Taiwan) got good reviews.

The Chinese adapter is great to test the faulty I/O path and time-outs though.

Offline refinery

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #45 on: May 20, 2020, 07:40:34 AM »

Is it made by Dawicontrol? I do have one of their 3124 controllers.
The new "X" code for 3124 is there, if anyone wants to try it out, feel free to ask.


Its an actual SiliconImage card. This one, except mine has a bracket:

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/WlEAAOSwN-VckAxV/s-l1600.jpg


The machine I plan on using this in is strictly 9 for the time being, so I'm patient to wait and happy to be a guinea pig for any os9 testing.
got my mind on my scsi and my scsi on my mind

Offline (S)ATAman

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #46 on: May 20, 2020, 03:50:27 PM »

Is it made by Dawicontrol? I do have one of their 3124 controllers.
The new "X" code for 3124 is there, if anyone wants to try it out, feel free to ask.


Its an actual SiliconImage card. This one, except mine has a bracket:

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/WlEAAOSwN-VckAxV/s-l1600.jpg


The machine I plan on using this in is strictly 9 for the time being, so I'm patient to wait and happy to be a guinea pig for any os9 testing.


I do have that model as well, this will be the next thing after the 680-3112-3114.
Much better fun, I think, too. But the "9" driver for it is not started yet.

I (kind of) updated the "X" driver for it already as well as the OpenFirmware, but after 680-3112-3114 finishes will need to make minor changes there.

Offline refinery

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #47 on: May 20, 2020, 08:27:11 PM »
im very confused then. that's a 3124 card. you've been talking about 3124 cards. but its not a 3124 card?
got my mind on my scsi and my scsi on my mind

Offline Philgood

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #48 on: May 21, 2020, 02:05:54 AM »


The easiest magic wand is called 3124, the MacOS 9 driver is scheduled and won't be a big challenge.

At this time want to finish the 680-3112-3114 driver.
Do not expect big wizardy regarding that project, 680-3112-3114 is not a very fast chip, but reliable enough and the new code base can be re-used for many more things.

Eagerly awaiting this; the random 3124 I got off ebay is ready and willing!
It does not have the "standard" chip though, but the outlet is socketed. Will I need to swap it out for another chip?


Is it made by Dawicontrol? I do have one of their 3124 controllers.
The new "X" code for 3124 is there, if anyone wants to try it out, feel free to ask.

Currently stuck with 680-3112-3114 in Intel, I think that my PCI-PCIe bridge (the cheap one, made in China)  controller is an other junk.
Looked up the Amazon, nothing, but bad reviews. The Startech (made in Taiwan) got good reviews.

The Chinese adapter is great to test the faulty I/O path and time-outs though.

As i already told I have the PCI-e version of the 3124 in my G5 so I could try your driver. I'm sure you already answered it on another thread but let me just ask you again please.
What is the advantage of your driver to the stock one in my case?

-Bootability (dont know right now if the stock ones already deliver that) ?
-Speed ?

Cheers
*G4 MDD 1.25GHz (Single 2003)* with 2x 80Gb harddrives, 1Gb RAM, Tascam US-428 and Edirol FA-101 USB/Firewire soundcards-*iMac G3 DV 400MHz* with installs from OS 8.6-OSX Tiger on different harddrives-*Powerbook G4 1.67Ghz* with new SSD ! Love it.

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #49 on: May 23, 2020, 07:51:00 AM »


The easiest magic wand is called 3124, the MacOS 9 driver is scheduled and won't be a big challenge.

At this time want to finish the 680-3112-3114 driver.
Do not expect big wizardy regarding that project, 680-3112-3114 is not a very fast chip, but reliable enough and the new code base can be re-used for many more things.

Eagerly awaiting this; the random 3124 I got off ebay is ready and willing!
It does not have the "standard" chip though, but the outlet is socketed. Will I need to swap it out for another chip?


Is it made by Dawicontrol? I do have one of their 3124 controllers.
The new "X" code for 3124 is there, if anyone wants to try it out, feel free to ask.

Currently stuck with 680-3112-3114 in Intel, I think that my PCI-PCIe bridge (the cheap one, made in China)  controller is an other junk.
Looked up the Amazon, nothing, but bad reviews. The Startech (made in Taiwan) got good reviews.

The Chinese adapter is great to test the faulty I/O path and time-outs though.

As i already told I have the PCI-e version of the 3124 in my G5 so I could try your driver. I'm sure you already answered it on another thread but let me just ask you again please.
What is the advantage of your driver to the stock one in my case?

-Bootability (dont know right now if the stock ones already deliver that) ?
-Speed ?

Cheers

Th bootability is there, the speed advantage as well.
It is more robust than the old - but I think, the best would be just to try out the driver, without flashing the chip first.

I do have one PCIe-based card as well.
If you are not in hurry, maybe wait. A "beta" driver was posted few months ago, you can install it.
For the future I plan to maintain all drivers actively.

Offline (S)ATAman

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #50 on: May 23, 2020, 07:57:16 AM »
im very confused then. that's a 3124 card. you've been talking about 3124 cards. but its not a 3124 card?

There are different builds of 3124 cards.
- A quite popular build is with a PCIe bridge, it can be used on all new machines with PCIe slot. Not the best idea for really new ones and Thunderbolt, but it works.
- There is a PCI (not PCI-X!) version, which is castration and a bad configuration in addition to that.
- There are few versions based on the reference design
- There is a Dawicontrol-made PCI-X card with a long EEPROM, not the square one. It is removable, but looks a bit unusual.

The PCI version is not to my liking, it is really a silly solution (a PCI-X ASIC with castrated bus).
Other than that, the rest is quite similar. The DAWICONTROL had Win-10 drivers, so it makes sense to support it.

Offline teroyk

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #51 on: May 23, 2020, 09:36:03 AM »

there is a lot of funny stuff out there which i have never seen before. :D

Only put that M2 to USB3 adapter in SATA adapter and we can skip USB 2 with OS9 :D
I bought my first new Mac when OS X 10.1 released. And I bought that Mac because it had Mac OS 9 too. And I bought my first 68k Mac when Apple stopped PPC Macs.

Offline tunedbytad

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #52 on: May 23, 2020, 03:50:39 PM »

Quote
Only put that M2 to USB3 adapter in SATA adapter and we can skip USB 2 with OS9 :D

 :o I think my head just exploded! :o
Hi, My name is Tad
I have a PMG4 problem
aka tunedbytad aka ProTools4 aka NotoriouSS

Offline IIO

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #53 on: May 23, 2020, 03:56:01 PM »
Only put that M2 to USB3 adapter in SATA adapter and we can skip USB 2 with OS9 :D

could be the perfect solution for those who always wanted to try what happens when you "convert" from USB3 to firewire. at least you dont break your motherboard this way. :)
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