Author Topic: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4  (Read 11648 times)

Offline tunedbytad

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Offline Nymunariya

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2020, 12:32:38 AM »
so if m.2 * sata is just regular SATA, then it should work with a simple PCI -> m.SATA adapter, just like mSATA?


I was browsing ebay for "sata m.2 pci" and saw a bunch that said m.2 NGFF.  After a quick search I found this explanation:

Quote
The NGFF M.2 SSDs are often referred to as M.2 SSDs though M.2 is the name of the connector used. The NGFF (Next Generation Form Factor) is a replacement specification for the mSATA standard. It is a refinement of the mSATA standard and uses a new connector, known as M.2, that supports a wide range of devices. The M.2 connector is not compatible with mSATA devices.

While the mSATA interfaces only support different versions of SATA (i.e. SATA 1.0 to SATA 3.0), the M.2 connector allows SATA 3.0, USB 3.0, and PCIe 3.0 devices to be used provided the motherboard supports the same.

NGFF M.2 SSDs share the same specifications as SATA and mSATA SSDs but use a different connector. They have similar read and write speed and will give an equal performance boost as SATA 3 and mSATA SSDs. SATA NGFF M.2 SSDs are a good choice for users whose desktop, laptops or computing devices feature M.2 slots.

So basically, if m.2 sata is the same as mSATA with just a different connector, then it should work over pci, assuming msata works over pci--well, we know SATA works over pci already.

I just bought ICY Box IB PCI210 2x m.2 SATA SSD to PCIe 2.0 x1 card with raid function.  If it works, then I don't have to worry about losing all my data with molex to sata.  And if it doesn't work ... well I guess it's a good time as any to install some ssds into my pc.
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Offline IIO

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2020, 06:07:57 AM »
combo card!

für... oder... sehr schön.

but of course the host controller interface is "e" again. :)
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Offline IIO

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2020, 06:15:54 AM »
I was browsing ebay for "sata m.2 pci" and saw a bunch that said m.2 NGFF.

they sometimes note "NGFF" also when it is NVMe, and that still wouldnt be wrong. NGFF is just an older name for m.2

always be careful not to buy NVMe disks or NVMe-only controllers unless we find a good solution (for PCI or PATA) ;)

even worse - as you said already - they now sometimes also call mSATA "NGFF".


Quote
So basically, if m.2 sata is the same as mSATA with just a different connector, then it should work over pci, assuming msata works over pci--well, we know SATA works over pci already.

sure, such a PCI card would be nothing more than the usual seritek SATA cards but with an integrated m.2 SATA plug instead of cables.

it would be a combination of two technologies from different decades, but hey, we even have m.2 adapters for IDE, isnt it?

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Offline IIO

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2020, 06:29:21 AM »

there is a lot of funny stuff out there which i have never seen before. :D

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Offline IIO

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2020, 06:51:53 AM »
that we want, but for PCI(-X)

in an ideal case it would of course run driverless and support non-raid. then it would give you the same functionality (adding 4*2 TB storage to your computer via 1 PCI interface) but without cables.

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Offline Nymunariya

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2020, 11:47:07 AM »
geil. 

I'll take one in purple.
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Offline IIO

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2020, 11:58:46 AM »
macht dann 229 euro.
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Offline XinSheng

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2020, 01:45:22 PM »
geil. 

I'll take one in purple.

Geil as in Ich bin heisse? or as in Das ist cool? Sorry, brought back some memories. I miss some parts of living in Germany. I have a hankering for a mett brotchen now.

Offline refinery

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2020, 08:46:25 PM »
its highly unlikely that a PCI-X to m2 adapter exists. m2 was developed long after PCI-X fell out of favor, and most PCI-X systems were servers which have likely mostly been retired by now. I'd imagine if one exists, its going to come off a site like alibaba from some random Chinese vendor. the market for such a thing would be tiny, probably the only people looking for something like this would be Mac enthusiasts like us, since there were never very many desktop PCs with PCI-X.
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Offline IIO

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2020, 04:54:59 AM »
random chinese rubbish is what i was hoping for.

ATA is about as old as PCI and the chinese still make m2 adapters.

i mean... hell, it would be 10 dollars instead of the 129 for the seritek, so dont destroy my dreams^^
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Offline (S)ATAman

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2020, 08:11:03 PM »
Something about NVMe and G4 and G5

I wrote NVMe driver and it works in G5. With a StarTech adaptor I don't see, why it would not work in G4.

With one caveat: so far the only NVMe drive which has remote chances to become PowerPC bootable is the Samsung 950 Pro.

That drive has an BIOS-like area and it can be flashed.
Except, that Samsung does not provide details how to flash.

The earliest reasonably supported OS for NVMe is Leopard. Earlier OS-es do not have the proper API-s how to "dissect" the physical memory regions in order to "feed" them into NVMe engine.
I am not sure (will need to look at it again) "9" has such API-s either.

That means, if I would make a "9" driver or pre-Leopard driver for NVMe I would need to restrict every transfer to 128K or even lower - and after that I would need to double-buffer everything into a physically contingous well-aligned internal buffer. That would slow down the entire transfer and any advantage of NVMe would disappear.

Under Leopard a non-bootable NVMe drive in a 2005 G5 with PCIe slots can achieve over 700 MB/Sec on reads and writes.


The NVMe 1.3 standard has a provision that an NEVMe drive may have a dedicated ROM area for BIOS.
Unfortunately not a single NVMe drive does have this feature - it is not mandatory.
Samsung 950 Pro was born before the NVMe 1.3 and while it has that feature, it has pretty much nothing to do with NVMe 1.3 standard, it's not public.

I do have a pair of 950 Pro 1 TB drives, they have other problems (was unable to use MSI or MSI-X on MacPro-s, only legacy).
So it's not the best drive to have.

960 Pro is better for G5, 970 somewhat better for Intel.
The Mac Pro 1.1 wasn't tested much, I don't have that machine here at this moment.
Tested: G5 Quad, MacPro 5.1 and up (4.1 updated to 5.1).

Offline DieHard

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2020, 09:33:15 PM »
Quote
That means, if I would make a "9" driver or pre-Leopard driver for NVMe I would need to restrict every transfer to 128K or even lower - and after that I would need to double-buffer everything into a physically contingous well-aligned internal buffer. That would slow down the entire transfer and any advantage of NVMe would disappear.

That's exactly what I thought ! ...... NOT, lol.

It's like you walk around thinking your all that and then SATAman, obviously a member of the remaining Annunaki, spouts out all this secret divine knowledge. My God, man, I always read your posts at least 3 times.  Light bulbs going off... BAM

Quote
Under Leopard a non-bootable NVMe drive in a 2005 G5 with PCIe slots can achieve over 700 MB/Sec on reads and writes.
OK, that is just plain sick, I paid a kings ransom for my Mercury Accelsior (https://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/SSDPHW2R960/) about 4 years ago for my main Mac Pro and thought that at about 800MB/sec, nothing was even close, and you are saying in a 2005 G5... 700 MB/Sec, what sorcery is this ?  I appreciate all the cool information you have posted !

Lastly, for those on a budget, even though we have highlighted many storage technologies here, I was wondering if you can give us the "Sataman" guidelines of what you consider the two best bang for the bucks as far as a bootable OS 9 SSD solutions... one using the native PATA, and one as using a PCI card.

Offline FBz

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2020, 10:32:13 PM »
...obviously a member of the remaining Annunaki...

...the "Sataman" guidelines of what you consider the two best bang for the bucks as far as a bootable OS 9 SSD solutions... one using the native PATA, and one as using a PCI card?

Yes, please. ;)

Offline tunedbytad

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2020, 11:35:46 PM »
Quote
I was wondering if you can give us the "Sataman" guidelines of what you consider the two best bang for the bucks as far as a bootable OS 9 SSD solutions... one using the native PATA, and one as using a PCI card.

yes plz
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I have a PMG4 problem
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Offline (S)ATAman

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2020, 04:04:25 AM »
Quote
That means, if I would make a "9" driver or pre-Leopard driver for NVMe I would need to restrict every transfer to 128K or even lower - and after that I would need to double-buffer everything into a physically contingous well-aligned internal buffer. That would slow down the entire transfer and any advantage of NVMe would disappear.

That's exactly what I thought ! ...... NOT, lol.

It's like you walk around thinking your all that and then SATAman, obviously a member of the remaining Annunaki, spouts out all this secret divine knowledge. My God, man, I always read your posts at least 3 times.  Light bulbs going off... BAM

Quote
Under Leopard a non-bootable NVMe drive in a 2005 G5 with PCIe slots can achieve over 700 MB/Sec on reads and writes.
OK, that is just plain sick, I paid a kings ransom for my Mercury Accelsior (https://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/SSDPHW2R960/) about 4 years ago for my main Mac Pro and thought that at about 800MB/sec, nothing was even close, and you are saying in a 2005 G5... 700 MB/Sec, what sorcery is this ?  I appreciate all the cool information you have posted !

Lastly, for those on a budget, even though we have highlighted many storage technologies here, I was wondering if you can give us the "Sataman" guidelines of what you consider the two best bang for the bucks as far as a bootable OS 9 SSD solutions... one using the native PATA, and one as using a PCI card.

For the native PATA I think the best is the SATA <--> PATA converter, but only few are good. There was a topic earlier about it.
Also, there is a very bad batch of Kingston drives on eBay, I got a few from a seller from Slovenia, they kind-of work - but have nothing to do with genuine Kingston. This is a known problem, use Samsung (pr other known brand) instead. For older machines like Sawtooth 120GB drives are good enough.
The good SATA <--> PATA converters can handle master-slave as well, so you can use two.

For PCI-X card I think the current best is the 1V4, which is going to be de-throned by the updated 3124, with "9" support.
Some other good future candidates are the Marvell 6042-based boards (have 7042-based driver which was sold commercially to quite a few customers).
The "9" and FCode could happen.

Than the "Frodo" (Braodcom RAIDCORDE) which looks very simple and is very fast, sold for $20 and up and the chip is inside of some G5-s as I know, with open source "X" driver written by Larry Barras at the time he was at Apple.

I have two combo SATA/PATA cards with BIOS chip from VIA, it's a simple PCI card - but it has 3 SATA ports and one PATA.
It has a quite well-written documentation and I think, I can reuse much of the recent written code for 680-3112-3114 and hopefully it has no sleep problem with the Quicksilver.

The 680-3112-3114 code is largely done, at least the PowerPC part. The Intel part is important for the testing purpose, working on it but not today, today is SAS day.


The performance of 680-3112-3114 is clearly not up-to-date, is very far from 3124 - but that's the fastest I can do.
Once it is done I will go back to 3124 because it is clearly a better choice. All I miss is the "9" driver which can be done based on the new "X".
It could happen, the first approach of the "9" driver for 3124 won't have port multiplier support.

Sorry, the entire virus situation was a huge 3-moth setback for everything.

Offline IIO

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2020, 05:12:06 AM »
Tested: G5 Quad, MacPro 5.1 and up (4.1 updated to 5.1).

just to make it clear for future reference:

when he talks about G5 quad, that still means "only" PCIe.
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Offline tunedbytad

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2020, 11:10:17 AM »
Quote
For PCI-X card I think the current best is the 1V4, which is going to be de-throned by the updated 3124, with "9" support.

were do I sign up?

I would join a Patreon for this..

while we are in Magic Wand / Genie in a Bottle Wish mode

G4 AGP DUAL DVI video card with driver for OS9
the G5 9600 AGP card works in a PMG4 in OSX but is a turd in OS9
that seems like someone smarter than me could figure that out
Hi, My name is Tad
I have a PMG4 problem
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Offline (S)ATAman

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2020, 12:02:38 PM »
Quote
That means, if I would make a "9" driver or pre-Leopard driver for NVMe I would need to restrict every transfer to 128K or even lower - and after that I would need to double-buffer everything into a physically contingous well-aligned internal buffer. That would slow down the entire transfer and any advantage of NVMe would disappear.

That's exactly what I thought ! ...... NOT, lol.

It's like you walk around thinking your all that and then SATAman, obviously a member of the remaining Annunaki, spouts out all this secret divine knowledge. My God, man, I always read your posts at least 3 times.  Light bulbs going off... BAM

Quote
Under Leopard a non-bootable NVMe drive in a 2005 G5 with PCIe slots can achieve over 700 MB/Sec on reads and writes.
OK, that is just plain sick, I paid a kings ransom for my Mercury Accelsior (https://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/SSDPHW2R960/) about 4 years ago for my main Mac Pro and thought that at about 800MB/sec, nothing was even close, and you are saying in a 2005 G5... 700 MB/Sec, what sorcery is this ?  I appreciate all the cool information you have posted !

Lastly, for those on a budget, even though we have highlighted many storage technologies here, I was wondering if you can give us the "Sataman" guidelines of what you consider the two best bang for the bucks as far as a bootable OS 9 SSD solutions... one using the native PATA, and one as using a PCI card.

Thanks for compliments - LOL - there is not much of extraterrestrial technology, more something like applying the new technology to the past.
The biggest problem with legacy is that PCI and PCI-X are obsolete.

The biggest problem with modern times is that the best Apple technology suitable for many modern controllers is the "IODMACommand". Unfortunately it is reliably only in Leopard, thus all earlier releases of macOS present a challenge. It is still possible of course - just requires significant extra efforts.

"9" would be possible if a reliable PCIe x4 <---> 64-bit PCI bridge would be available commercially. Otherwise the speed is very limited.
Even if it would be possible, the special requirements of NVMe would be an extra hurdle. Not an impossible hurdle, but a lot of work.


I am starting to think that a well-made emulator with proper hardware abstraction is just easier.
In other words, a modern machine with proper emulation, including certain PCI emulation (you need "9" for certain goals? Let's solve these goals by adjusting the devices) is an easier path.

The fast speed of NVMe on G5 was to expected. In MacPro 5.1 and up that speed is about twice, compatibility is for Snow Leopard and up. The MacPro 1.1 - 3.1 (in PCIe 1.0 slots) has no speed advantage over G5. 3.1 is just my guess, I don't have that machine anymore, but not a big loss.

Offline (S)ATAman

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Re: Super Slick m.2 Sata Setup for G4
« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2020, 12:07:20 PM »
Quote
For PCI-X card I think the current best is the 1V4, which is going to be de-throned by the updated 3124, with "9" support.

were do I sign up?

I would join a Patreon for this..

while we are in Magic Wand / Genie in a Bottle Wish mode

G4 AGP DUAL DVI video card with driver for OS9
the G5 9600 AGP card works in a PMG4 in OSX but is a turd in OS9
that seems like someone smarter than me could figure that out

The easiest magic wand is called 3124, the MacOS 9 driver is scheduled and won't be a big challenge.

At this time want to finish the 680-3112-3114 driver.
Do not expect big wizardy regarding that project, 680-3112-3114 is not a very fast chip, but reliable enough and the new code base can be re-used for many more things.