iMac G3 rev A SSD upgrade OS 9 boot issue

[DrMacenstein]

Welp, here we go again!  I decided it’s time to replace the old 6 GB HDD in my tray-loading, rev A iMac with an SSD (not for speed but to prolong life). Unfortunately, after doing the swap, when I attempt to boot the machine I get an image of a floppy disk with a blinking question mark (NOT a folder with blinking question mark). At this point, the power button ceases to function and I have to disconnect from the plug to kill power. It’s not frozen however as the mouse cursor can be moved on screen and the question mark keeps blinking. Inserting an OS 9 CD into the cd drive spins up but does nothing while in this state. Below is a list of steps I took and things I’ve subsequently tried. Hopefully someone on this forum has run into something similar and solved it as I think I’m stumped!

1. Used 250 GB OWC SSD: formatted/partitioned drive as follows - Apple Partition Map/mac OS extended: 6 GB partition for the OS, the rest of the drive split into 120 GB partitions for storage

2. Connected drive to iMac via USB and ran Apple System Restore from OS9Lives 9.2.2 CD and restored OS 9 image to 6 GB partition on SSD.

3. Opened the newly created boot partition and ensured system folder was blessed

4. Swapped HDD with SSD using star tech data to IDE adapter provided with drive from OWC and ensured jumper was set to master

5. Attempted to boot and got floppy disk image with flashing “?”

6. Inserted OS9Lives CD, power cycled Mac, attempted to boot to CD with C key - no dice, still goes to grey screen with floppy ? Image. I know it’s a good disk as I was able to use it to boot my iBook from it.

7. Installed old HDD to make sure I didn’t screw anything up during swap, mac booted perfectly.

8. Swapped SSD back in, moved jumper to cable select, same floppy ? Screen.

9. PRAM battery is only a month old so it can’t be that.

10. Moved jumper back to master and zapped pram, still no change.

Anyone have any thoughts? Thanks all!

[FBz]

READ THIS:
https://lowendmac.com/1998/original-imac-rev-a/

AND THIS:
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT2560

[everymac.com isn’t loading here currently.]

Doubt that it will ever recognize your entire 250 GB drive, no matter how you partition it.
(120 GB maximum size?) What disk utility (or machine) did you use to format the SSD?
Have you tried OPTION-booting with the CD in?
(And again, it may only allow you to use 120 GB of the 250. A waste.)

And again… the now infamous “original install” disc question???

https://www.macintoshrepository.org/16935-mac-os-9-2-x-10-0-4-imac-g3-500-summer-2001-

Four-disc set above to download - OR maybe an Apple retail version of OS 9 will
have the proper disk utility to format (and boot) with? Again - maybe try the
option-boot with whatever version of 9 or 9.2.2 disc that you may have.

How was the original HD jumpered / set?

AND I’m seeing 8 GB referenced for the boot partition.

[IIO]

there is a lot of misleading info out there about sizes and stuff.

my favorite is this article: https://lowendmac.com/2014/how-big-a-drive-does-mac-os-9-support/

where it says all partitions have to be smaller than 190, there would be a partition limit of 21 and you could use disks up to 4 Tb. it also says firewire would be faster than USB 2.

none of these numbers is correct, it is just a bunch of rumors.

...

that 8gb (or 6?) boot partition limit on a beige G3 (for OSX? or also for OS9?)... is not one of the highlights of apple computer history. what were they thinking? that forced you to make partitions on a 20 gb harddrive for no reason.

[DrMacenstein]

READ THIS:
https://lowendmac.com/1998/original-imac-rev-a/

AND THIS:
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT2560

[everymac.com isn’t loading here currently.]

Doubt that it will ever recognize your entire 250 GB drive, no matter how you partition it.
(120 GB maximum size?) What disk utility (or machine) did you use to format the SSD?

Have you tried OPTION-booting with the CD in?
(And again, it may only allow you to use 120 GB of the 250. A waste.)

And again… the now infamous “original install” disc question???

https://www.macintoshrepository.org/16935-mac-os-9-2-x-10-0-4-imac-g3-500-summer-2001-

Four-disc set above to download - OR maybe an Apple retail version of OS 9 will
have the proper disk utility to format (and boot) with? Again - maybe try the
option-boot with whatever version of 9 or 9.2.2 disc that you may have.

How was the original HD jumpered / set?

AND I’m seeing 8 GB referenced for the boot partition.

Hey! Lots of good info in there. Read through both articles and reaffirmed that my setup is correct: 6GB boot partition, last Mac OS rom, last boot rom, etc.. all check good for my machine. Original HDD was set to master so I mirrored that with the SSD to IDE adapter. I did attempt the option boot as you suggested and it won’t even get to that screen when I hold the option key, just goes straight to “grey/floppy/?” screen. I believe I used a c2d macbook running Yosemite to initially format/partition, would that have any effect? I made sure to use the correct partition scheme and volume formatting. Also, the 120GB size limitation, does that apply to logical or physical volumes? Nothing I’ve read through actually specifies that, just says it can’t see drive larger than 120GB. I’m not worried about wasting the drive space as it’s not a particularly expensive drive and I have quite a few of them. I wish I had the original install disks but the guy I bought it from no longer had them. I think the ones you linked to on macintoshrepository.org are for the g3/500 MHz model, which wouldn’t work for my G3/233 MHz architecture. Do you think there’d be any reason the universal install image in this site wouldn’t work? I’m thinking with the boot issue and inability to option boot, it’s the SSD I’m trying to use. But is it the SSD or the way it was formatted/partitioned? And I definitely would like to know if that 120GB size limit is in reference to physical or logical volumes. The 8 GB reference is for the boot partition. On rev A-D iMac G3’s must have all boot items fall within the first 8GB of the HDD or they will fail to boot. It’s a maximum limit, but from everything I’ve read, to ensure you don’t bust this ceiling, it’s best to partition to under the 8GB limit hence why I did 6GB (also because that’s the same size as the original HDD that I’m replacing).

One more thing to add that I forgot to put in the original post was I had also tried to simply clone the original HDD over to the SSD using carbon copy cloner. That caused the system to freeze on boot, like hard freeze. That was when I started over and tried to do it the way I listed in the original post. Sorry, just wanted to save someone the time of suggesting it.

[IIO]

the 120 gb limit is for drives. the controller simply cant adress more than 137 gb, no matter how many partitions.

some of these imacs also wont support slave.

another question is if the startech adapter works correctly with ATA-33, because some adapters dont.

[DrMacenstein]

the 120 gb limit is for drives. the controller simply cant adress more than 137 gb, no matter how many partitions.

some of these imacs also wont support slave.

another question is if the startech adapter works correctly with ATA-33, because some adapters dont.

So does that mean it can’t even see the drive as a whole, or just the additional space? Good point! I honestly don’t know if it’s ATA-33 compatible. Looks like I’ve got more research to do. Thanks for the info!

[FBz]

The controller simply can't address more than 137 GB.
...StarTech adapter work correctly with ATA-33?

https://everymac.com/systems/apple/imac/specs/imac_ab.html#macspecs1

Time to seek out the original install disc download for your particular iMac… OR try the Apple Retail OS 9.0 disc?

There’s no G3 iMac here so I can’t “parallel test” / install.

You can download files to the C2D but don't do anything to them there except to copy them over to a G4 (or earlier machine) before unstuffing or opening them. Simply simplifying for now.

Very strong suggestion for you here:

Get a G4-based *machine UP and running stable with OS 9 / 9.22 or even some version of OS X (10.3 to even some flavor of 10.4 or 10.5 - just before the all-important “install OS 9 driver option” vaporizes.). Get / install some version of Stuffit Deluxe on that machine so that you can unpack any number of file formats for the OS 9 to OS X realmz. TRY your “future downloads” moved to the "Golden Mac" for OS 9 and OS X disc burning deeds. It might be a slower burn process but you’ve hopefully eliminated any more of these long-winded diatribes from me. And I’ll thank you.

AND 6 GB or 8 GB? I did see both suggested. I’d err on the side of the larger 8 GB size. That’ll leave you with nearly 112 GB to play around (work) with.

Too large SSD?… related to experiences here with Quicksilver “A” boards (and early B&W G3's) that won’t recognize HD space above 120 GB on internal drives.

Okay. Just fired up a B&W G3 here and changed from an ADB keyboard & mouse to an Apple USB keyboard and mouse. Option - key boot not recognized! Tried “Rescue & Install” CD holding down “C” key. No boot!

Tried “Universal Install” CD w/ “C” key. It booted - but no mouse or keyboard recognition. Desktop appeared but “stuck”. (Maybe it might have eventually worked but didn’t want to spend more time on it.)

Tried Apple retail OS 9 installer disk (C key) and it booted. Opened up the Disk Utility (ver. 1.8.1) and I could then reformat and partition the internal disk (AND INSTALL). Maybe the same would be true for you too… if you cannot  locate, download and successfully burn the original installer discs for the iMac? Maybe easier to download basic (retail version) OS 9 first, format and install with that and then upgrade from there?

More questions? Use the search feature here on the site or check out many videos on YouTube covering SSDs into the early iMacs. Or maybe some helpful, "early iMac" owner / member will help you from here. Good luck.

**Good question about the StarTech IIO.

[IIO]

So does that mean it can’t even see the drive as a whole, or just the additional space? Good point! I honestly don’t know if it’s ATA-33 compatible. Looks like I’ve got more research to do. Thanks for the info!

you can use the possible space if a drive is too big - but if it already formatted "too long", you see nothing.

[IIO]

(my chinese 06 adapter also say "ATA 100 supported" - and i dont know what exactly that means if oyu want to use it on another bus. they do work on the CD bus (33), havent tried 133 (MDD front) yet.

you think one can count that all of them will always work? isnt ata only upwards compatible like most stuff? not that i´d care much about G3 issues, but many people do.)

[DrMacenstein]

So reading through the posts, it seems as if I have multiple issues on multiple fronts. The drive definitely wasn’t formatted on a machine that has the option to install OS 9 drivers so I will re-format/re-partition on my power Mac G4 running jaguar. I can’t do it on the g3 iMac because OS 9’s drive utility program can’t format anything on the usb bus. I’ll keep the boot partition at 6gb because although I’ve also read 8 GB is also ok but the limit, I’d rather err on the side of caution. The original HDD was 6GB. As a fail safe, I went on eBay and purchased an Apple retail 9.2.2 disk. I will also download the original iMac g3 9.0 disk and burn it from 9.2.2 (which is dual booted on my PowerBook g4) to maximize the chance for readability (have read this elsewhere and it worked for my previous post about getting 9.2.2 universal on my iBook g3). In order to eliminate potential issues from too large a drive and the startech SATA to IDE adapter, I ordered a 32GB PATA SSD recommended on yet another forum. Once these all arrive I’ll go for another attempt and let you guys know how it goes. Thanks again for all the help and advice!

[gocarlo]

I'm struggling with this same exact issue on my iMac G3 Rev A:
https://68kmla.org/forums/index.php?/topic/59304-1998-imac-g3-bondi-no-chime-after-ramhddbattery-upgrades/

I ended up returning the OWC Legacy SSD and I have a KingSpec 32GB PATA drive on the way to me now:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/32GB-KingSpec-2-5-inch-PATA-IDE-SSD-Solid-State-Disk-MLC-Flash-SM2236-Controller/331798359824

along with an adapter to take it from laptop style PATA to desktop style PATA:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07ZYQJ9LC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I will report back on how this goes.

BTW, this model of iMac doesn't support the drive selection menu if you hold option while booting, neither does the B&W G3.

[FBz]

BTW, this model of iMac doesn't support the drive selection menu if you hold option while booting, neither does the B&W G3.

Thanks, did re-discover the above when testing on the B&W G3.

Still wonder if booting the Apple Retail OS 9 install disc (or the original iMac install discs) would allow formatting and partition of the new SSDs with the new SSDs already inside the iMac? I wouldn’t relish the idea of taking an iMac apart and reassembling it again - if unecessary. Then, there’s the possible question about any necessary ROM updates? (Which I only assume might be on or addressed with an Apple Retail install disk?)

The SinLoon 2.5 to 3.5 IDE Adapter looks interesting. But no consideration for Master / Slave or Cable Select settings? Suppose jumper settings on the KingSpec SSD might accomplish that? And ahh, you’ve shifted from the OWC SSD to a laptop-type SSD with 44-pin connectors.

And again... there are some YouTube vids showing SSD installs in the early iMacs. (Admittedly, I did only skim through some of those.)

Try this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGvkKKWbx2I (Fast forward ahead as necessary.)

[IIO]

BTW, this model of iMac doesn't support the drive selection menu if you hold option while booting, neither does the B&W G3.

thanks for the heads up!

[DrMacenstein]

I'm struggling with this same exact issue on my iMac G3 Rev A:
https://68kmla.org/forums/index.php?/topic/59304-1998-imac-g3-bondi-no-chime-after-ramhddbattery-upgrades/

I ended up returning the OWC Legacy SSD and I have a KingSpec 32GB PATA drive on the way to me now:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/32GB-KingSpec-2-5-inch-PATA-IDE-SSD-Solid-State-Disk-MLC-Flash-SM2236-Controller/331798359824

along with an adapter to take it from laptop style PATA to desktop style PATA:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07ZYQJ9LC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I will report back on how this goes.

BTW, this model of iMac doesn't support the drive selection menu if you hold option while booting, neither does the B&W G3.

I ordered the exact same drive! We’ll have to compare notes.

[gocarlo]

Still wonder if booting the Apple Retail OS 9 install disc (or the original iMac install discs) would allow formatting and partition of the new SSDs with the new SSDs already inside the iMac? I wouldn’t relish the idea of taking an iMac apart and reassembling it again - if unecessary. Then, there’s the possible question about any necessary ROM updates? (Which I only assume might be on or addressed with an Apple Retail install disk?)

It’s possible. I did it, but the darn drive still wouldn’t boot. I used an Apple 9.2.2 installer CD to make it happen. When that didn’t work I tried using the original OS restore CDs that shipped with this iMac and that still didn’t work.

My theory is that the SATA/IDE adapter wasn’t compatible. I’ll bet I could have made the SSD work w the right adapter.

[FBz]

My theory is that the SATA/IDE adapter wasn’t compatible.
I’ll bet I couldn’t made the SSD work w the right adapter.

Did you mean could have made it work w/ the right adapter?

There ARE differences between all of the green IDE/SATA adapters:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,5436.0.html?PHPSESSID=0j7sql5mb4u085ki3bsud96hf3

Believe they’re all (the green ones) built with the JMicron JM20330 chipsets - BUT some of them have jumpers to set for “Master” or “Slave”. The “dumb” ADP-06 adapter does not. BUT the ADP-06’s can be used in both a Quicksilver AND in an MDD - even without jumpers. The (also green) JP-103-5 and the EVB-002-3 adapters, BOTH have jumpers for Master / Slave configurations. Confused yet?

The YouTube video link that I posted above shows using a jumpered “green” bridge set to “Master”. He still has problems with the install but solves them all to finally accomplish installation. Again, I skimmed through the first four or so videos and it seems that being able to set the jumpers (whichever adapter you might choose - green or red, JMicron or Marvell) to “Master” might be the “catch”.

With the SinLoon 2.5 to 3.5 IDE Adapter and the laptop-type 44-pin SSD, you’ll likely have to set a jumper on the SSD… to Master. Looks like a “cleaner looking” setup but wonder about cost comparison to the OWC SSD and the overall cost per MB/GB? AND did Apple offer an OS 9.2.2 standalone Retail disc, or was that from some other machine-specific disc set?

Again, regret no G3 iMac here to test with - but hopefully some of this might help? Skim through those first 4-5 YouTube videos from the “G3 iMac SSD” search parameters for more info. Good luck.

[DrMacenstein]

My theory is that the SATA/IDE adapter wasn’t compatible.
I’ll bet I couldn’t made the SSD work w the right adapter.

Did you mean could have made it work w/ the right adapter?

There ARE differences between all of the green IDE/SATA adapters:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,5436.0.html?PHPSESSID=0j7sql5mb4u085ki3bsud96hf3

Believe they’re all (the green ones) built with the JMicron JM20330 chipsets - BUT some of them have jumpers to set for “Master” or “Slave”. The “dumb” ADP-06 adapter does not. BUT the ADP-06’s can be used in both a Quicksilver AND in an MDD - even without jumpers. The (also green) JP-103-5 and the EVB-002-3 adapters, BOTH have jumpers for Master / Slave configurations. Confused yet?

The YouTube video link that I posted above shows using a jumpered “green” bridge set to “Master”. He still has problems with the install but solves them all to finally accomplish installation. Again, I skimmed through the first four or so videos and it seems that being able to set the jumpers (whichever adapter you might choose - green or red, JMicron or Marvell) to “Master” might be the “catch”.

With the SinLoon 2.5 to 3.5 IDE Adapter and the laptop-type 44-pin SSD, you’ll likely have to set a jumper on the SSD… to Master. Looks like a “cleaner looking” setup but wonder about cost comparison to the OWC SSD and the overall cost per MB/GB? AND did Apple offer an OS 9.2.2 standalone Retail disc, or was that from some other machine-specific disc set?

I love that in the video he seems to struggle as much as we are. These damn things are so finicky!!! I went eahead and ordered the exact hardware he used in that video and just to be safe, went on eBay and ordered a 9.2.1 Apple retail disk as well as a software restore disk specific to my rev A iMac. So quite a few failsafes at this point. It’s also possible, as he states in the video, that the cd drive may be going bad (an issue I also dealt with on my iBook) so it’s ability to read the install disks may be hit or miss in addition to adapter incompatibility. What’s frustrating is there seems to be multiple issues at once with these things so it’s hard to troubleshoot. Conversely, it’s a nice achievement when/if we do figure it out

[gocarlo]

My theory is that the SATA/IDE adapter wasn’t compatible.
I’ll bet I couldn’t made the SSD work w the right adapter.

Did you mean could have made it work w/ the right adapter?

Yes, I meant could have, thank you for clarifying. I edited my post to reflect this.

[gocarlo]

With the SinLoon 2.5 to 3.5 IDE Adapter and the laptop-type 44-pin SSD, you’ll likely have to set a jumper on the SSD… to Master. Looks like a “cleaner looking” setup but wonder about cost comparison to the OWC SSD and the overall cost per MB/GB? AND did Apple offer an OS 9.2.2 standalone Retail disc, or was that from some other machine-specific disc set?

This approach will be close to the same price per GB as the OWC solution. Except it might actually work.

9.2.2 CD came with my first gen iMac G4 and doesn’t seem to care what machine I use it with. I also have the 9.2.1 retail CD.

I’ve had good luck with IDE SSDs in other vintage Macs (I.e. BW G3, Titanium PB G4 Rev B). None have given me the trouble this one has. This iMac is the first “new world” architecture computer Apple ever released, I think hence the code name “columbus”, but in reality it’s not a true new world machine. It’s a half step there. PMG3 BW feels this way too.

Once I get this drive working, my next goal would be to upgrade the case fan to a quieter one.

[FBz]

Might have two of the G3 iMacs* arriving here this weekend
...so maybe not just you two having all of the fun.

*Hopefully with original install & restore discs.