Author Topic: Dual booting help needed  (Read 1939 times)

Offline part12studios

  • Gold Member (200+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 389
  • new to the forums
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Dual booting help needed
« on: April 04, 2020, 05:12:43 PM »
HI there, I have a Quicksilver that i'm trying to setup to dual boot OSX and OS9..  i have two SSD drives with ATA adapters.  The OS9 disk is fine.  Boots up fine and OS9 sees the OSX leopard disk.  but when i replace the SSD in the same IDE slot.  the mac sees the OSX install disk and goes into installation but after awhile I get the BIG POWER BUTTON OF DEATH and am told to restart the mac. 

But if i swap out the two SSD, it boots up fine.  I've wondered if the SSD that's not the OS9 one is bad, but wouldn't the OSX install disk still boot up and show the basic installation screen?   

FdB gave me some good advice to use Boot cd:,\\:tbxi which worked once but then when it was time to reboot i got the big "power button of death".  I just don't get why the system seems to be fighting me on this..  i'm going to try a normal IDE drive next to see if MAYBE the SSD is bad.. 

Also I noticed something..  did at some point different apple computers have a different keyboard buttons for eject?  is that right or was i just experiencing some fluke..  the keyboard for my sawtooth wouldn't open / close but a different one for the quicksilver did work..  maybe bad key..  wasn't sure. 

Offline part12studios

  • Gold Member (200+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 389
  • new to the forums
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2020, 01:36:00 PM »
Ok so yea looks like (thanks FdB) what I've learned is the the Quicksilver doesn't support cable select.  So i'm going to just look into seeing how i can partition partition the SSD.. 

currently its:

20gb / 100gb..   i would like to see if i can format the 100gb part (without touching the 20gb) to make  the 100gb into say.. 20gb / 80gb..  to have a total of 3..   so i'm imagining:

OS9 : 20gb
OSX Leopard : 20gb
Media : 80gb


googling options now. 


Offline part12studios

  • Gold Member (200+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 389
  • new to the forums
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2020, 01:53:45 PM »
I guess the most straight forward way should be to just boot from OS9 install disk use disk utility to select the 100gb partition and format accordingly right?  the 20gb main OS9 drive would be untouched. 

Offline IIO

  • Platinum Member (500+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 2978
  • just a number
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 54
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2020, 04:16:02 PM »
regarding cable select, with HDs this is no problem, you can boot from anything in any condition.

not sure why i would not be supported by some quicksilvers, for the ones i have apple explicitly recommends to use cable select.
insert arbitrary signature here

Offline Greystash

  • Veteran Member (100+ Posts)
  • ****
  • Posts: 116
  • Too many Macs..
    • Mac Classic, Mac Attic
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2020, 04:38:46 PM »
I had the same issue a while back and it was a nightmare getting two SATA adapters to work. I managed to get both working by having one connected to the main HDD IDE cable, and the other to the IDE cable leading to the CD drive (placed the SSD in the Zip cavity). I set the jumper to Master for the main boot drive/adapter and the other was slave.
If you want any additional HDDs attached things get even more complicated... If you decide to go this route let me know and I can look into my setup properly, otherwise the above should work.

Offline part12studios

  • Gold Member (200+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 389
  • new to the forums
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2020, 04:54:14 PM »
all i know is that CS doesn't work with my Quicksilver when more than one of those SATA adapters were on..  in general I had trouble getting any drive to work.. so it just seems like these devices don't play well with my CD Rom (also set to master, and going to CS didn't help, or even work, for installing OSX)

I tried just about every possible combination with these sata adapters and nothing worked except the OS9 SSD I have working already..   

for simplicity i'm just going to try and formate my larger partition into two partitions.. i've backed up everything so if i do an ooops worst case is i just have to reinstall OS9 from scratch and a few programs over again and insure all partitions are correct for the OSX installation..  right now i couldn't touch the OS9 drive because data is on both..  but in about 1 more hour (only 4 short hours to copy over 12gb to my usb thumb drive..)

@greystash - I had no luck with the secondary drive in the zip bay like you tried.  for whatever reason it just wouldn't boot from the OSX disk when it was connected there..  maybe the particular adapter you have is better, but the ones i have just don't work well in the quicksilver..   i tried every combination of dvd master,slave,cs.. always ended badly.. the osx disk would show the apple logo which was good.. but then that would be it.. just spin busy forever..  Boot CD command didn't help either. 

Also I learned today that apparently the IDE adapter for DVD / Zip is slower than the one used for the HDD.  I don't know the particulars of that, but it does make sense that the dvd drive and that general area was designed for storage devices which don't need the same high speed bandwidth of a HDD.  However I would think they would just use standard IDE interfaces.. i mean could the cost difference be that much?   Mac's were pretty premium machines back then..  at least i thought they were. 


Offline FBz

  • Veteran Member (100+ Posts)
  • ****
  • Posts: 136
  • Older Than Dirt
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 32
SATA/IDE bridges - QS
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2020, 11:04:06 PM »
Guess there’s no need to check the ADP-06 SATA/IDE bridge again (the green ones)
as mentioned in this other thread previously:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,4667.msg35459.html#msg35459
Caleb’s using the ADP-06 bridge(s).

For more info on the ADP-06, the Addonics and the Star-Tech SATA/IDE bridges
you might want to check and read through that Quicksilver thread noted above.

Addonics


Star-tech


And IIO, would greatly appreciate internal photos of your Quicksilver
...with multiple drives, using Cable Select config. / pretty please?

Offline part12studios

  • Gold Member (200+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 389
  • new to the forums
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2020, 11:22:42 PM »
yea these look good but considerably more expensive, but not a dealbreaker for the future, but the reality is i'd have to then buy two of them to insure things are right and that's looking like $40 or more..  again not a deal breaker but i'm going to try and see if i can just get this other ssd working first before i buy more stuff. 

Right now i'm going to take FdBs advice and give the OSX installation more time, like A LOT more time..  i've taken a fresh SSD and made three partitions.  one for OS9 which installed fine.  i have the OSX drive and a Media partition to help keep things organized for recordings / videos / etc in the media partition.

Offline GaryN

  • Platinum Member (500+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 1205
  • active member
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2020, 01:34:31 PM »
yea these look good but considerably more expensive, but not a dealbreaker for the future, but the reality is i'd have to then buy two of them to insure things are right and that's looking like $40 or more..  again not a deal breaker but i'm going to try and see if i can just get this other ssd working first before i buy more stuff. 
FWIW… I went through exactly the same thing with my MDD.
The $6 IDE–SATA I bought simply wouldn't do cable select. That leaves you with a few choices:
>Hack up your spare IDE cable to convert it to Master/Slave
>Since you don't have a spare IDE cable, hack up your only IDE cable to convert it to Master/Slave
>Get real and spend the extra $10 or whatever to get a better one that does do cable select.

Then you can go back to work on something productive instead of playing hacker trying to save a few bucks you'll waste on Starbuck's lattés anyway.

Offline part12studios

  • Gold Member (200+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 389
  • new to the forums
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2020, 01:47:09 PM »
yea i agree just before i throw more money at it i wanted to make sure it wasn't something i was doing wrong..  and yea at this point the time spent is getting to be a loss not a gain.  going to do some passive attempts give the Installer DVD a rediculous amount of time to complete the intial install process (getting past the apple / spinner) and see how it goes. 

What is irksome at this point though is that it seems like the leopard dvd actually will not install on any drive with these adapters.. like it doesn't like talking over the cable select (not master or slave)..  so yea i'm going to pop in a master set spinner and see if that behaves better tonight and if i notice a difference i think i'm going to go that route like you say.. just get 2 of those pin configurable adapters and call it a day. 

Offline FBz

  • Veteran Member (100+ Posts)
  • ****
  • Posts: 136
  • Older Than Dirt
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 32
DUAL BOOT
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2020, 04:20:51 PM »
It’s possible that Caleb’s ALSO running into a similar problem that I had with the ol’ MDD… where I simply could not install Leopard or Tiger on a completely wiped (or new HD) without first having installed a much earlier and basic version of OS X FIRST. Quicksilvers originally shipped with OS 10.0.4 so maybe a version of Jaguar or possibly Panther… would be a better place to begin.

He was successful installing on a later made, G4 PowerBook which originally had OS 10.2.7 pre-installed. He didn’t change the HD in that - but “upgraded” to Tiger. :o

Offline part12studios

  • Gold Member (200+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 389
  • new to the forums
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2020, 04:28:23 PM »
oooooo interesting..  hmm anyone know where i could find an ISO of early OSX? 

Offline FBz

  • Veteran Member (100+ Posts)
  • ****
  • Posts: 136
  • Older Than Dirt
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 32
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2020, 04:29:09 PM »
Nothing in the disc collection from Mac Museum?

Offline part12studios

  • Gold Member (200+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 389
  • new to the forums
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2020, 04:43:44 PM »
FdB sent me al ink to Macintosh Repository.  going to start there!  :)

Offline GaryN

  • Platinum Member (500+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 1205
  • active member
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2020, 07:05:44 PM »
What is irksome at this point though is that it seems like the leopard dvd actually will not install on any drive with these adapters.. like it doesn't like talking over the cable select (not master or slave)..  so yea i'm going to pop in a master set spinner and see if that behaves better tonight and if i notice a difference i think i'm going to go that route like you say.. just get 2 of those pin configurable adapters and call it a day.
Now that I'm finally involved / invested in this thread, I've re-read it and here's the little detail I think you're missing:

Master / slave and "cable select" cables are NOT identical.

In CS configuration, Pin 28 is grounded at the host end. This is how the HDDs know their positions on the single cable.
If the HDD can "see" the ground, it becomes Device 0… if not, it becomes Device 1

This is what I was talking about re: "hacking" your IDE cable. You can convert a M/S cable to a CS one by cutting the #28 wire between the drives so only the first one can "see" the ground. However, converting a CS one to a M/S one requires restoring the wire (which has probably been removed) between the black and gray HDD connectors… much harder to do. It's a bass-ackwards scheme that has to be just right in order to work… kinda like a 3-way light switch. If it's wrong, nothing will work. That's why you can't get Leopard to install… nothing can be read or written to the HDD.

Here's what else I know: The $6 bridge I said I bought was the same POS you have: the ADP-06. It's pure, unadulterated shit. That's why it's only 6 bucks. Buy the Star-Tech. The difference in build quality is instantly obvious when you see them side by side Hell, the StarTech even comes in a real box! You set it to cable select and end this misery.

It's $17 at NewEgg.

Offline part12studios

  • Gold Member (200+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 389
  • new to the forums
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2020, 08:00:55 PM »
oooooo i had no idea about that!  not the same?! ugh..  but wow great info!  the ones i bought for $3 each do work well, they just are hard wired to CS..  since i have a spare regular IDE cable i may explore that hack since going from M/S to CS is easy, it's worth a shot.

I just think it's interesting that OS9 installs like a dream and boots fine..  but OSX, now that hates these IDE adapters for whatever reason..  very very strange.



Offline FBz

  • Veteran Member (100+ Posts)
  • ****
  • Posts: 136
  • Older Than Dirt
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 32
DUAL BOOT
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2020, 10:49:41 PM »
This is what I was talking about re: "hacking" your IDE cable. You can convert a M/S cable to a CS one by cutting the #28 wire between the drives so only the first one can "see" the ground.

Interesting information on converting M/S cable to a C/S cable. With this in mind, wonder if it might be possible to use one Star-Tech bridge in conjunction with an ADP-06 bridge in a Quicksilver… with the Star-Tech set on Cable Select… and then considering the positions occupied on the cable by the drives on that ribbon cable, as Cable Select works? Would it be absolutely necessary to have two Star-Tech (or Addonics) bridges???

Here’s a bit of fun…



Beginning with an 867 MHz Quicksilver and an OWC 120GB SSD (partitioned in 3 equal partitions of 37.26GB each) with an ADP-06 attached on the last socket of the stock M/S Quicksilver ribbon cable…

First partition comprised of already installed OS 9.2.2 (with DieHard’s Instant DAW present.) Other two partitions empty / blank.

Attempted to install OS 10.4 on the second partition (A). It went through the entire installation process up to the point that the machine rebooted and normally the Setup Assistant would appear after restart. Nope. Spinning, spinning and spinning until the old gray circle with a slash through-it appears. FAILURE.

Next, successfully installed Jaguar OS 10.2 on the second partition (B) without a hitch. After installation and reboot, Setup Assistant appeared and was completed. Full boot. Stable.

Back to Partition A now… and another installation of Jaguar 10.2 over the previous attempted 10.4 installation. Upon boot of 10.2 install CD - no installation allowed on Partition A without erasure/format of Partition A first. Afterwards, installation proceeded just like Partition B - successfully. THEN rebooted and inserted OS 10.4 installation disk. 10.4 disk asked if I’d like to “upgrade” and from there installation was a success on Partition A. Rebooted and the Setup Assistant appeared… and OS 10.4 successfully was installed and booted.

So, if you don’t want to snip the #28 wire of your Quicksilver HD ribbon cable, Or if you can get by with a multi-partitioned HD and not have to buy one or two Star-Tech or Addonics bridges… you can do the install as outlined above (except for maybe the number of partitions and overall size of the SSD or other SATA drive). YOU CAN install /upgrade via the original ribbon cable over an earlier version of OS X.

Of course, always nice to have two drives on that main cable, if you want. BUT dual boot on a single HD with two partitions IS possible. (You don’t need a third partition for OS 10.2.)

Offline GaryN

  • Platinum Member (500+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 1205
  • active member
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2020, 11:05:57 PM »
I avoided getting into this for a long time for this very reason. It's a confusing clusterf**k.
You keep insisting on cobbling this shit together any way you can when you KNOW the thing to do is get two StarTech bridges and burn those POS green ones.

OS9 runs because you have it on the INNER GRAY IDE connector. How do I know that? Because a NON CS drive set to Master OR slave will work by itself on the END connector where it can't "see" the Pin 28 ground. It thinks it's on a "regular" cable. Connect it with the Black END connector and it will NOT work. IF it DOES, there's something totally different going on that I can't begin to figure out from here.

OSX should be able to be installed and work exactly the same way on the end connector BUT you know what? It wouldn't work that way for me either when I wasted a few hours on the green POS. You know that's time you don't get back, right?

Your biggest problem right now is that you have too many unknowns and some of those unknowns are known to be faulty.
For all you probably know, and for certain all I know, is the damn OSX disc could be bad BUT you can't determine that for certain because there are too many other unknowns. You cannot accurately TEST a part of a system unless you KNOW the rest of that system is GOOD.

$17 each at NewEgg and they even come with a warranty…… OR you can go even deeper into the woods by skirting around it as FBz described.

$17 each at NewEgg… OR you can futz around for another couple of days.
I'll even help confuse you more: http://www.unixwiz.net/techtips/ide-cable-select.html

$17 each………That's a lousy 34 bucks. Bye.

Offline FBz

  • Veteran Member (100+ Posts)
  • ****
  • Posts: 136
  • Older Than Dirt
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 32
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2020, 11:18:32 PM »
Finding references now that Apple switched the Quicksilvers to Cable Select with the 2002 models.

Offline IIO

  • Platinum Member (500+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 2978
  • just a number
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 54
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2020, 03:14:25 AM »
Finding references now that Apple switched the Quicksilvers to Cable Select with the 2002 models.

one must always be careful with apple products, there is nothing as it seems.

mind you, the QS 2002 has an ATA-5 controller but one which already supports 48 bit adressing out of the specs for most models. (it normally came with ATA-6)

if it works for you only with master/slave configurations, you just proved garys scientific hypothesis about different cables wrong. (have fun with that part of the discussion)

unfortunately i can not check it now because the machine is broken, but i could swear that i´ve use cable select in the 2001, too. i am pretty sure i could remember that if it had to remove a jumper when migrating.

until now i had luck with everything i am doing regarding ATA - and cheap SATA adapters. only the expensive sonnet card keeps giving me headache. :/
insert arbitrary signature here

Offline part12studios

  • Gold Member (200+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 389
  • new to the forums
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2020, 05:08:15 AM »
very interesting.  Some great insight and thanks for sharing! 

i'm going to see if i can find an official CS IDE cable to test with.  I know I could hack one but i don't really have any spare ones i could modify that wouldn't be robbing another system.   

They are cheap enough to find although i'm trying to check ebay and figure out how to explicitly know i'm getting a CS cable.  I did find a website that talks about how to make the modification but i mean if i have to buy a new cable anyway, I might as well just by a factory modified CS cable.. 

Although as I'm typing this I'm having trouble figuring out how to ask for a CS enabled cable.  seems like "cable select" is too vague and not really giving me any explicit "this is a CS cable". 

Does anyone know why OS9 would install fine and several different versions of OSX won't?  Although I will also add that before I got OS9 on my 2nd SSD (i left my original fully working OS9 SSD alone so i can always revert) and while that 2nd SSD was still formatted for Windows 7.. 

OSX still would just hang during the initial regardless.. it seems that simply put on my Quicksilver using one of these CS adapters will not install on this system. 

I saw the comments though.  I'm going to try more stuff tonight.. i'm going to burn that 10.2 disk on my machine with Toast. 

My current thought is that I'm cool with using a single SSD 120g for dual booting so i shouldn't need to buy another SATA adapter.. but at this point I can't seem to get OSX of any version i have so far (Cheetah, Tiger, Leopard) none of them work.

And now to top it all off i put a regular Spinner hard drive in.. no sata adapter and OSX cheetah still hangs..  in fact the Spinner actually has a working installation of Tiger on it..  i'm just now starting to wonder if this quicksilver for whatever reason simply will not install OSX on it in any form which makes no sense..   

Offline FBz

  • Veteran Member (100+ Posts)
  • ****
  • Posts: 136
  • Older Than Dirt
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 32
DUAL BOOT
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2020, 05:39:39 AM »
Thanks for the info IIO. I may try Gary’s C/S cable snip route at a later date. But, if you have to buy two Star-Tech bridges anyway, why change to C/S when you can simply set their jumpers to M & S?

AND the effort was not to disprove Gary inasmuch as it was to illustrate that it was possible to install OS 10.4 on a second partition (on a single drive with the ADP-06) and only with that one drive on the M/S cable… AFTER first installing an earlier version of OS X. In my case this was successful last night with Jaguar installed first and then OS 10.4 installed as an “Update” afterwards. Have done same with MDD and another QS previously.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 06:08:47 AM by FBz »

Offline part12studios

  • Gold Member (200+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 389
  • new to the forums
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2020, 06:32:21 AM »
hoping this Jaguar first approach does the trick like it did for FBz.  I should know tonight. 

Offline IIO

  • Platinum Member (500+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 2978
  • just a number
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 54
Re: DUAL BOOT
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2020, 05:38:59 PM »
But, if you have to buy two Star-Tech bridges anyway, why change to C/S when you can simply set their jumpers to M & S?

well he obviously used 2 cheap honky kong sata adapters (like the ones i use in many places), and the question which baffles me more is... why do these things have jumpers where you can choose cable select when it does work only for 1 HDs but not for the second one on the same controller?
dont have most win PCs dual ATA ports with the usual 80-to 40 pin cables, just like our macs?

i find it hard to believe that it is an issue only releated to these cheap adapters.

but like i said until now i had luck and when something works for yourself you tend to think that others are are just to stupid... i´ve often been proven wrong with this attitude but i cant help to repeat thinking this way.

what a fucking crazy idea anyway to make a port or cable system where the user has to put two disks and they are not equal but allow different options.

one day we should make a PCI card with thunderbolt 3 for Mac OS 9. it would only give us firewire 400 but probably SATA 600 (and a second network port if you write me one)
insert arbitrary signature here

Offline FBz

  • Veteran Member (100+ Posts)
  • ****
  • Posts: 136
  • Older Than Dirt
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 32
Bottes Jumelles
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2020, 07:58:41 PM »
“J’aime ces petits moments calmes avant la tempête.”

Offline Greystash

  • Veteran Member (100+ Posts)
  • ****
  • Posts: 116
  • Too many Macs..
    • Mac Classic, Mac Attic
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2020, 03:20:07 AM »
This probably isn't of any use but here's my setup anyway..

After spending a ridiculous amount of time tonight trying to replicate my old setup with two SATA adapters I realised that one of the adapters was broken..

Current Setup
ATA133?
200GB Seagate Barracuda - Master
2TB SATA Seagate - Slave

ATA100
DVD drive - Cable Select
200GB Seagate Barracuda - Cable Select

In my previous setup I had a SATA DVD drive in place of my current one, along with the SATA HDD on the other cable. Since I can't with a new adapter until after the lockdown I can't give the exact configuration used.

The SATA adapters I'm using are ~$10 from AliExpress:
JMicron Technology
JM20330
EVB-002-3

Offline part12studios

  • Gold Member (200+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 389
  • new to the forums
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2020, 05:24:14 AM »
Well I do have some good news finally and it does confirm prior post.  I tried Cheetah.. no dice.. Tiger.. nope..  Leopard.. nada..   BUT. Jaguar did load up normally..  every other one would spin infinitely.. 

one time i think i got "lucky" and a BOOT CD:,\\:TBXI loaded an attempt of Tiger, but ultimately even that one power button of deathed on me and never finished the installation.

I have a question though.. Does anyone know if OS9 can see a OSX partition?  I realize that I have my current drive setup as I like..

The Jaguar install sees my 2nd drive (media) and i could install into that.. but OS9 is 20gb and (media) is 100gb..  I'm not huge on wiping everything and starting over just because it will take time to redo what i have..

If i install Jaguar into that media partition..  would OS9 be able to continue to access it?   Because if that's the case, i don't mind sharing my media storage with OSX..  I have a feeling it would work, but i'm not sure if OSX might change the nature of the partition in the process.

Thanks!
Caleb

Offline IIO

  • Platinum Member (500+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 2978
  • just a number
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 54
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2020, 08:02:42 AM »
I have a question though.. Does anyone know if OS9 can see a OSX partition?

what would think an "OSX partition" is? :) they are usually both APM/HFS+, and even if it something else, OS9 can see anything what OSX can see.

there are only two things which must be taken into account regarding the actual OSX system components: while invisible or locked folders as well as root- and system-owned files can not be seen or manipulated from the OS9 finder, applications like disk editor or norton defrag will destroy your OSX install. so whatch out with that.

but you can work on the same documents or launch carbon apps located in the OSX applications folder and things like that, no problem at all.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2020, 08:50:28 AM by IIO »
insert arbitrary signature here

Offline part12studios

  • Gold Member (200+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 389
  • new to the forums
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2020, 08:37:16 AM »
Ok yea that's great to hear.  I felt like that was probably the case, but feared if i said "yea OSX go install here in this partion" and somehow it be locked / invisible to OS9 that would have been bad.  This will get me back up and running sooner and not have to buy more stuff.  I've not been able to record for awhile with this irking me.

Getting the 12" 1.5ghz powerbook fully working with Leopard and the mSATA IDE 64gb drive working was a good tech day and once this is behind me i'm stoked to get back to it..  AND try out this Profire 2626 with Digital Performer 5.. which i got working on the powerbook, but i really want to get it on the Quicksilver so I can more easily share resources.  Though I do wonder if I will have any trouble with Serial Keyspan card, but fortunately the MOTU MTP AV has usb and serial so that shouldn't matter. 

SIDE Question:
Does anyone know where I could find a manufactured cable select IDE ribbon?  my shopping around seems to indicate everything out there are standard IDE ribbons..  surely people made CS compatible factory made ribbons.. and didn't have people having to solder stuff..  maybe there was a special word because "cable select IDE ribbon" doesn't seem to help me narrow down the specifics.  I want a fully modded one for sure as I've heard performance is better according to a tutorial i found explaining both methods. 

Offline IIO

  • Platinum Member (500+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 2978
  • just a number
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 54
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2020, 08:58:55 AM »
for worksflows which include booting into the other OS in order to use apps which only exist there, i mostly ignore the OSX default locations for apps and documents and use locations instead which are more releated to my organisation how it looks like from OS9.

for example it wouldnt make much sense to render audio files in OSX somewhere under /user and then later copy them to another disk when you run out of space in you OSX boot disk. or reopen them later from an OS 9 app in that location.

it would be technically possible, but it is not very sexy to work like that.

you´d rather have an /audioprojects folder which is shared between the OSes, or which are the default location of the main app in your workflow. same for DTP or photoshop.

unlike under windows (arghh!), it is no problem at all in OSX PPC to install all third party executables onto a firewire disk instead of into the systemfolder.

insert arbitrary signature here

Offline part12studios

  • Gold Member (200+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 389
  • new to the forums
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2020, 09:05:36 AM »
very cool yea that was my general thinknig too..    D:\Audio   D:\Video  and then it would be next to whatever various OSX system folders are there.. 

Yea I have always liked how painless it is to move applications to another drive on Mac after installation and work.  Very un-windows-ish.  :)

Offline FBz

  • Veteran Member (100+ Posts)
  • ****
  • Posts: 136
  • Older Than Dirt
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 32
DUAL BOOT / SATA Bridges
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2020, 10:00:44 AM »
Seems that all “green” SATA/IDE adapter “bridges” are not created equal? Thanks for the time spent and your images, Greystash! And funny how these threads covering material that we’ve been over before, will sometimes uncover new things.

All green SATA bridges are not ADP-06.



Looking at Greystash’s SATA bridge, notice the “SHORT: Master” and “OPEN: Slave” text on the bridge? (Red Arrow in attached pic.) Could this now represent a lower cost option to the more expensive “red pcb” Addonics & Star-Tech bridges?


[The ADP-06 bridge (also pictured) only offers a “directional” jumper setting for setting SATA to IDE or IDE to SATA with attached jumper.] Answer to your question IIO?

IF jumpering the pins on Greystash’s SATA bridge would enable SATA drives attached to be recognized as either “Master” or “Slave”  / then a lower-cost SATA two-bridge solution for the Quicksilvers’ Master/Slave requirement… might now be possible for 2 SATA drives on that same cable?

*I especially like the spelling of BRIDGE on Greystash’s adapter: “Bribge”. And while I’ve never ordered anything from AliExpress, I may now order two of these bridges per Greystash’s info.

AND as IIO has already explained… YES, OS 9 and OS X partitions can “see” each other. BUT, maybe out of an “Abundance of Caution” (or sheer superstition) one might simply want to create a folder within the OS 9 (or “Media”) partition entitled “X Files” for storage of anything originating from OS X.

ALSO. I did install OS X Tiger over (again, as an update to) Jaguar… and not as a whollly different and separate version of OS X alongside or in addition to Jaguar. I “overwrote / UPDATED” Jaguar with Tiger. IF that Tiger disk successfully installed on the G4 PowerBook, it should definitely now work on the Quicksilver - unless it has somehow been damaged.

Boot into Jaguar. Load the OS X Tiger install disk. Reboot with the Tiger disk in while also holding down the C key. Then install Tiger as an UPDATE to Jaguar. If it doesn’t boot into the Tiger installer disk this way, then refer to your tattoo and try it again.


Offline FBz

  • Veteran Member (100+ Posts)
  • ****
  • Posts: 136
  • Older Than Dirt
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 32
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2020, 10:33:02 AM »
SIDE Question:
Does anyone know where I could find a manufactured cable select IDE ribbon?



Check the cable that you already have. Note the red-circled, "notched" cables in the attached pic. The gray cables are out of Quicksilvers, while the black cables are from MDDs. Your cable may already be CS ready - but the Quicksilver simply may not recognize HDs set as CS, because they require M/S config.

Could test this by pulling a HD cage with drives from an MDD and simply plugging that into a QS - but I think I've been lost down that rabbit hole before and it did not work. But do test if you wish and report back. Thanks.

Offline FBz

  • Veteran Member (100+ Posts)
  • ****
  • Posts: 136
  • Older Than Dirt
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 32
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2020, 12:33:59 PM »
AND… should one ever successfully install Tiger
-don’t forget the following from Europa & GaryN
concerning Spotlight…

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,5366.msg39362.html?PHPSESSID=qe04haj3c3o2214ko1j0pvhq27#msg39362

Offline part12studios

  • Gold Member (200+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 389
  • new to the forums
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2020, 01:30:15 PM »
awesome, that's great.  I don't have any spares laying around.  i don't think i've ever seen cables with those modifications.   

Anyone have one they's sell / give to me?   I just need one.   If anyone knows of a link online that might carry one that would be much appreciated too

Also veeeeery cool about spotlight..  but my takeaway is that you HAVE to install OSX first?  I'm trying to avoid blowing out my OS9 setup because i have everything installed the way i like it.. not the end of the world.. all files backed up but i'd like to reclaim some hours of my life spent on this exercise

Alternately though if i could ge tone of these CS cables that would fix the problem too and allow me to have two separate SSDs..

Offline IIO

  • Platinum Member (500+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 2978
  • just a number
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 54
Re: DUAL BOOT / SATA Bridges
« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2020, 02:30:49 PM »
The ADP-06 bridge (also pictured) only offers a “directional” jumper setting for setting SATA to IDE or IDE to SATA with attached jumper. Answer to your question IIO?

the ones i use look different again, but they also have only 3 pins and give absolutely no clue about what the possible 3 different settings could be for.

so no, my question isnt answered yet.

however, in my case, i have OSX and OS9 on the same disk, so if something wouldnt work when switching to SATA, i´d just switch ports and all is good.

but let´s pretend we are naive: wouldnt 3 possible settings be a hint that you can set master, slave or cable select? and if yes, would those work a cable-select-only QS?

Quote
might now be possible for 2 SATA drives on that same cable?

only when your QS actually supports/ only supports that.

Quote
“Bribge”

bribge. abbreviation for "made in china".

you can get bribge faster by ordering number seven and it is usually served with "sweet/sour" (33% vinegar, 33% sugar, 33% monosodiumglatamat, 1% tomato - not sure if master or slave)
insert arbitrary signature here

Offline FBz

  • Veteran Member (100+ Posts)
  • ****
  • Posts: 136
  • Older Than Dirt
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 32
Re: DUAL BOOT / SATA Bridges
« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2020, 03:53:19 PM »
Okay (laughing) I’ve looked under my bed and I can’t see how IIO’s bridge pins are configured / but 3 pins suggests that it’s either bridged between the first and second pin OR the second and third pin… IF the 3 pins are in a row like the ADP-06 pictured above, earlier. It might only offer the choice of SATA to IDE / or IDE to SATA instead. NO Master / Slave capability?

Now, if it’s 3 groups of 2 pins, like the Addonics (3 groups of two) or Star-Tech (four groups of 2)… that might mean you have the M/S or CS options. (In this case, that would be six or eight pins total, not 3 single pins.) Jumpers typically only jumper between two pins.

It’s all Chinese bribge take-out to me, at this point. ::)

AND YES, Greystash’s bridge offers only the choice between: Master (jumpered) or Slave (not jumpered). SO, it might work with two SSDs & bridges - one jumpered as Master and one (not jumpered) as a Slave. (On a Quicksilver under the M/S scenario.) AND therefore, might not work at all under a Cable Select scenario.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RW62LP9a5Yc



And here’s another “green one” that has no jumpers / pins…
that won’t work on a Quicksilver or inside of an external case.
Haven’t tried it on an MDD HD CS ribbon, yet.
And I have meant to throw it away more than once.
Beware the HXSP bridge.

Offline IIO

  • Platinum Member (500+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 2978
  • just a number
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 54
Re: DUAL BOOT / SATA Bridges
« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2020, 04:10:49 PM »
Okay (laughing) I’ve looked under my bed and I can’t see how IIO’s bridge pins are configured / but 3 pins suggests that it’s either bridged between the first and second pin OR the second and third pin…


...or not brigded at all. which sums up to 3 states.


Quote
It might only offer the choice of SATA to IDE / or IDE to SATA instead.


i dont think so. they are all advertised as unidirectional.


Quote
Jumpers typically only jumper between two pins.


you think so? some HDs use vertical brigding, too. brdgnin. bdriign. now i cant type it anymore. :(

for example many IDE disks use 7-8 for cable select.

that would be really shit if you needed to use different type of adapters for different types of QS and MMDs.

it is more fun to always buy the same type of adapter, one that works everywhere, so that you dont have to study compatibilty science in order to make music and store data.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2020, 04:29:48 PM by IIO »
insert arbitrary signature here

Offline IIO

  • Platinum Member (500+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 2978
  • just a number
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 54
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2020, 04:50:14 PM »

there are even jumper settings which run diagonal. what a wonderful, wonderful world.

insert arbitrary signature here

Offline FBz

  • Veteran Member (100+ Posts)
  • ****
  • Posts: 136
  • Older Than Dirt
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 32
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2020, 05:38:57 PM »

there are even jumper settings which run diagonal. what a wonderful, wonderful world.

Ha-ha! Still just between two pins!

Offline teroyk

  • Gold Member (200+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 229
  • -
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 24
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #40 on: April 09, 2020, 03:34:59 AM »
there are even jumper settings which run diagonal. what a wonderful, wonderful world.

Whou! I have jumpered over 100 devices and never seen like that.
I bought my first new Mac when OS X 10.1 released. And I bought that Mac because it had Mac OS 9 too. And I bought my first 68k Mac when Apple stopped PPC Macs.

Offline part12studios

  • Gold Member (200+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 389
  • new to the forums
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2020, 11:54:19 AM »
I'm still struggling..  two different jaguar disks are booting / formating drive.. and copying install files then goes to a black dos screen..  "exit error - 0" or something like that and the 2nd line is "please restart the computer".. 

but i'm going to try a combination of things including using an old spinner..  i've been hesitant to do it with that just because it's got a good osx tiger install for my sawtooth with my media 100 software on it.. but i gotta get to the bottom of this..

i'm thinking its the sata adapter..  seeing the QS doesn't actually support cable select..  osx might just crap out..  but for whatever reason OS9 doesn't care and installs without trouble.    will report soon.

Interesting discovery though..  the QS actually has a cable in it with a 28 terminated..  it's not a standard ide ribbon..  going to see if the sawtooth has a normal ribbon as another thing to test with. 

Offline IIO

  • Platinum Member (500+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 2978
  • just a number
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 54
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2020, 12:55:15 PM »
Whou! I have jumpered over 100 devices and never seen like that.

i have also never heard about "reduced speed powerup" - while at the same i was always speculating that it might exist, because it would be really clever for a typical home/office/studio computer which is turned on and off several times every day.
insert arbitrary signature here

Offline part12studios

  • Gold Member (200+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 389
  • new to the forums
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #43 on: April 12, 2020, 05:19:49 PM »
man nothing wants to work.  I've even gone back to a spinner 20gb hard drive definitely set to master on the right ribbon..  and still get the same issues..   i was able to tell finally what was working and what wasn't regarding the master / slave (HDD didn't have a chart to show me) but through process of elimination, I could tell because if i had it not set as slave or master on the right ide ribbon my Jaguar disk utility would not see the drive at all.. 

however i have realized maybe i've been making a noob mistake..  all this time i've been trying to install in a system that has all 4 PCI slots filled with various hardware..  so i'm going try again tomorrow and remove all of the optional hardware to see if maybe that hardware might be causing some issues.

Also interesting..  both the quicksilver AND sawtooth actually have the "easy way" mod done to both cables..  so I guess this is why the Sata adapter will work with one but not both?   

http://www.unixwiz.net/techtips/ide-cable-select.html

the 28th pin is clipped in the far end like the first illustration in this page..   just thought that was interesting considering that the quicksilver itself (the one i have at least) doesn't support cable select devices..   interesting stuff.   will report in when i test.   

Offline FBz

  • Veteran Member (100+ Posts)
  • ****
  • Posts: 136
  • Older Than Dirt
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 32
Quicksilver SSD / Bridges
« Reply #44 on: April 12, 2020, 06:28:48 PM »
Pre-2002 Quicksilvers

So here’s the possible solution to the Quicksilver SSD / ADP-06, Jaguar / Tiger install with a conventional HD also in place. ADP-06 and SSD in place on the middle, grey cable connector (seen as Master) and the conventional HD connected to the black cable connector [jumpered and seen] as Slave). *After OS install, the SSD with ADP bridge can be placed on either the black or the grey connector, when used alone as a solo drive and it will still be recognized, useable and bootable (without the 3.5” drive present).



However, in order to use a 2nd SSD and bridge in a pre-2002 Quicksilver (in place of the 3.5” drive) - an Addonics or StarTech bridge would be needed. (The ADP bridges do not provide for a Slave setting, whereas the Addonics & StarTech do.) *Greystash’s less expensive “Bribge” adapters might also function too.

2002 Quicksilvers reportedly changed to Cable Select (like the MDDs) and in those cases… one might need (2) Addonics (or StarTech) bridges for their Cable Select settings. /Have ordered 2 of the StarTech bridges to test this later. AND of course, will also attempt with an ADP-06 bridge in the mix on an MDD as well. (There’s no 2002 Quicksilver present here to test.)

Below, see the SSD partitioned into 3 equal partitions.
OS 9 / DieHard’s Instant DAW installed on the first.
OS 10.2 Jaguar installed on the SPACE partition.
OS 10.4.6 Tiger installed on the SPACE II partition.
AND
OS 10.4.6 Tiger installed on the TIGER! HD
Now all bootable and visible from whichever OS is booted.



*Installed Tiger OVER Jaguar on the SPACE II partition and on the TIGER! HD.
Now I can erase SPACE & SPACE II for working space…
as Tiger is now resident on the SLAVE drive.

Hopefully, part12studios will be allowed to finally and successfully install Tiger in some manner or form after removing the following cards from his Quicksilver: M100, scsi, motu 324, video card. (Except for maybe that video card.) All things considered, it’s possible that installs could have been done on the drives while in the Sawtooth (main differences being all of those cards installed in the QS) and then SSD moved to the Quicksilver with OS pre-installed. An item from both the Jaguar & Tiger install discs “Before You Install” PDFs notes the following:

Installing on a computer with a third-party SCSI card
If you have a third-party SCSI card installed in your computer and you cannot start up
Mac OS X, attach a disk or SCSI terminator to one of the card’s ports. If you continue to
have problems, try removing the card. Contact the manufacturer of the card for more
information about using the card with Mac OS X.
(That’s just for the SCSI card alone.)

AND that http://www.unixwiz.net/techtips/ide-cable-select.html graphic of a Cable Select cable
doesn’t quite jive with an actual Mac CS cable visually… Quicksilver or MDD.

Offline IIO

  • Platinum Member (500+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 2978
  • just a number
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 54
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #45 on: April 13, 2020, 02:17:03 AM »
what about these?

mine are in the minis now, so i cant test with a QS 2002.

cases are around USD15, m.2 2280 SSDs are some 10% more expensive than 2,5"

if it supported cable select it might be worth the difference.

the startech adapter might work technically, but it is not so easy to put 2 of those in a QS - or 4 of them into an MMD´s case - because there is really no room for that kind of thing.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2020, 02:33:13 AM by IIO »
insert arbitrary signature here

Offline part12studios

  • Gold Member (200+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 389
  • new to the forums
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #46 on: April 13, 2020, 04:29:08 AM »
I used one of these in my 12" powerbook 1.5ghz with a 64gb mSATA..  works great..   but isn't this a 2.5" device?  i imagine there are 2.5" to 3.5" adapters but not sure. 

Offline IIO

  • Platinum Member (500+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 2978
  • just a number
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 54
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #47 on: April 13, 2020, 05:41:11 AM »
I used one of these in my 12" powerbook 1.5ghz with a 64gb mSATA..  works great..   but isn't this a 2.5" device?  i imagine there are 2.5" to 3.5" adapters but not sure.

yes it is 2,5.

you are right, an m.2 adapter can of course not be usd with SATA harddisks, so it doesnt solve the issue with that.

it could only be an alternative to regular ssds.
insert arbitrary signature here

Offline part12studios

  • Gold Member (200+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 389
  • new to the forums
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #48 on: April 13, 2020, 06:37:51 AM »
but you'd think there is a 3.5 to mSATA card? 

OK GREAT NEWS..   i tested this morning removing all of the cards which are as follows:

1.  MOTU 324
2.  SCSI 1 Adaptec
3.  Media 100 Card
4.  Keyspan 4 port card

While I haven't done a complete install, this morning before going to work I booted up the Cheetah 10.0 CD and every single time before removing all the cards the happy mac icon would come up and the color wheel would just spin..  it would search CD like it's booting up and doing stuff but inevitably it would stop at some point and just hang..  but this morning it booted to the installer screen so this is VERY promising that this is what was causing all the hangups.

I just assumed (yea i know) the cards without drivers would be ignored.  However that is clearly not the case. 

Offline IIO

  • Platinum Member (500+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 2978
  • just a number
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 54
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #49 on: April 13, 2020, 11:48:43 AM »
but you'd think there is a 3.5 to mSATA card? 

what do you mean by that? formfactor to type conversion? ;)

edit: oh wait, you mean the connector. yes, that does not fit with a regular ATA cable, it is just similar.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2020, 12:01:28 PM by IIO »
insert arbitrary signature here

Offline IIO

  • Platinum Member (500+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 2978
  • just a number
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 54
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #50 on: April 13, 2020, 12:04:36 PM »
so of course add another 3 dollars for the connector!

the whole thing will still be shorter than a regular 2.5 device.

« Last Edit: April 13, 2020, 12:47:15 PM by IIO »
insert arbitrary signature here

Offline IIO

  • Platinum Member (500+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 2978
  • just a number
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 54
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #51 on: April 13, 2020, 12:57:28 PM »
hm. :)
insert arbitrary signature here

Offline part12studios

  • Gold Member (200+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 389
  • new to the forums
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Dual booting help needed
« Reply #52 on: April 13, 2020, 05:53:48 PM »
bah.. still no luck.. osx just hates my quicksilver.. or my quicksilver hates osx..     

Offline FBz

  • Veteran Member (100+ Posts)
  • ****
  • Posts: 136
  • Older Than Dirt
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 32
Hail Mary / PRAM ZAP
« Reply #53 on: April 13, 2020, 09:36:28 PM »
Hail Mary: ZAP the PRAM
(worth a shot)

PRAM is a type of memory found in Macintosh computers that stores system settings. These settings include display settings (like screen resolution and color depth), the time zone setting, speaker volume, and the startup volume choice. The system settings that are stored in the computer's PRAM differ from Mac to Mac, but the purpose of the memory remains the same.

If your Macintosh is behaving erratically or is not booting up all the way, you may want to try resetting the PRAM. You can reset or "zap" the PRAM on a Mac by pressing and holding the Command, Option, P, and R keys right as you turn the computer on. Yes, there are four keys you need to hold down at the same time. Once your hear the startup chime a third time, the PRAM has been reset and you can release the keys.


As many times as the SSD has been changed around, inside and out… and with various attempted installs and all of those cards left in, maybe its time to ZAP THE PRAM as the QS is really trying to boot now. (Even if you have or have not tried the OS install via the Sawtooth.) Hopefully this will work. If not, you can continue to post here for possibilities and input other than what has already been suggested, or post requested pics for all to examine...

Thanks.