Dual booting help needed

[part12studios]

HI there, I have a Quicksilver that i'm trying to setup to dual boot OSX and OS9..  i have two SSD drives with ATA adapters.  The OS9 disk is fine.  Boots up fine and OS9 sees the OSX leopard disk.  but when i replace the SSD in the same IDE slot.  the mac sees the OSX install disk and goes into installation but after awhile I get the BIG POWER BUTTON OF DEATH and am told to restart the mac. 

But if i swap out the two SSD, it boots up fine.  I've wondered if the SSD that's not the OS9 one is bad, but wouldn't the OSX install disk still boot up and show the basic installation screen?   

FdB gave me some good advice to use Boot cd:,\\:tbxi which worked once but then when it was time to reboot i got the big "power button of death".  I just don't get why the system seems to be fighting me on this..  i'm going to try a normal IDE drive next to see if MAYBE the SSD is bad.. 

Also I noticed something..  did at some point different apple computers have a different keyboard buttons for eject?  is that right or was i just experiencing some fluke..  the keyboard for my sawtooth wouldn't open / close but a different one for the quicksilver did work..  maybe bad key..  wasn't sure. 

[part12studios]

Ok so yea looks like (thanks FdB) what I've learned is the the Quicksilver doesn't support cable select.  So i'm going to just look into seeing how i can partition partition the SSD.. 

currently its:

20gb / 100gb..   i would like to see if i can format the 100gb part (without touching the 20gb) to make  the 100gb into say.. 20gb / 80gb..  to have a total of 3..   so i'm imagining:

OS9 : 20gb
OSX Leopard : 20gb
Media : 80gb


googling options now. 

[part12studios]

I guess the most straight forward way should be to just boot from OS9 install disk use disk utility to select the 100gb partition and format accordingly right?  the 20gb main OS9 drive would be untouched. 

[IIO]

regarding cable select, with HDs this is no problem, you can boot from anything in any condition.

not sure why i would not be supported by some quicksilvers, for the ones i have apple explicitly recommends to use cable select.

[Greystash]

I had the same issue a while back and it was a nightmare getting two SATA adapters to work. I managed to get both working by having one connected to the main HDD IDE cable, and the other to the IDE cable leading to the CD drive (placed the SSD in the Zip cavity). I set the jumper to Master for the main boot drive/adapter and the other was slave.
If you want any additional HDDs attached things get even more complicated... If you decide to go this route let me know and I can look into my setup properly, otherwise the above should work.

[part12studios]

all i know is that CS doesn't work with my Quicksilver when more than one of those SATA adapters were on..  in general I had trouble getting any drive to work.. so it just seems like these devices don't play well with my CD Rom (also set to master, and going to CS didn't help, or even work, for installing OSX)

I tried just about every possible combination with these sata adapters and nothing worked except the OS9 SSD I have working already..   

for simplicity i'm just going to try and formate my larger partition into two partitions.. i've backed up everything so if i do an ooops worst case is i just have to reinstall OS9 from scratch and a few programs over again and insure all partitions are correct for the OSX installation..  right now i couldn't touch the OS9 drive because data is on both..  but in about 1 more hour (only 4 short hours to copy over 12gb to my usb thumb drive..)

@greystash - I had no luck with the secondary drive in the zip bay like you tried.  for whatever reason it just wouldn't boot from the OSX disk when it was connected there..  maybe the particular adapter you have is better, but the ones i have just don't work well in the quicksilver..   i tried every combination of dvd master,slave,cs.. always ended badly.. the osx disk would show the apple logo which was good.. but then that would be it.. just spin busy forever..  Boot CD command didn't help either. 

Also I learned today that apparently the IDE adapter for DVD / Zip is slower than the one used for the HDD.  I don't know the particulars of that, but it does make sense that the dvd drive and that general area was designed for storage devices which don't need the same high speed bandwidth of a HDD.  However I would think they would just use standard IDE interfaces.. i mean could the cost difference be that much?   Mac's were pretty premium machines back then..  at least i thought they were. 

[FBz]

Guess there’s no need to check the ADP-06 SATA/IDE bridge again (the green ones)
as mentioned in this other thread previously:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,4667.msg35459.html#msg35459
Caleb’s using the ADP-06 bridge(s).

For more info on the ADP-06, the Addonics and the Star-Tech SATA/IDE bridges
you might want to check and read through that Quicksilver thread noted above.

Addonics


Star-tech


And IIO, would greatly appreciate internal photos of your Quicksilver
...with multiple drives, using Cable Select config. / pretty please?

[part12studios]

yea these look good but considerably more expensive, but not a dealbreaker for the future, but the reality is i'd have to then buy two of them to insure things are right and that's looking like $40 or more..  again not a deal breaker but i'm going to try and see if i can just get this other ssd working first before i buy more stuff. 

Right now i'm going to take FdBs advice and give the OSX installation more time, like A LOT more time..  i've taken a fresh SSD and made three partitions.  one for OS9 which installed fine.  i have the OSX drive and a Media partition to help keep things organized for recordings / videos / etc in the media partition.

[GaryN]

yea these look good but considerably more expensive, but not a dealbreaker for the future, but the reality is i'd have to then buy two of them to insure things are right and that's looking like $40 or more..  again not a deal breaker but i'm going to try and see if i can just get this other ssd working first before i buy more stuff. 

FWIW… I went through exactly the same thing with my MDD.
The $6 IDE–SATA I bought simply wouldn't do cable select. That leaves you with a few choices:
>Hack up your spare IDE cable to convert it to Master/Slave
>Since you don't have a spare IDE cable, hack up your only IDE cable to convert it to Master/Slave
>Get real and spend the extra $10 or whatever to get a better one that does do cable select.

Then you can go back to work on something productive instead of playing hacker trying to save a few bucks you'll waste on Starbuck's lattés anyway.

[part12studios]

yea i agree just before i throw more money at it i wanted to make sure it wasn't something i was doing wrong..  and yea at this point the time spent is getting to be a loss not a gain.  going to do some passive attempts give the Installer DVD a rediculous amount of time to complete the intial install process (getting past the apple / spinner) and see how it goes. 

What is irksome at this point though is that it seems like the leopard dvd actually will not install on any drive with these adapters.. like it doesn't like talking over the cable select (not master or slave)..  so yea i'm going to pop in a master set spinner and see if that behaves better tonight and if i notice a difference i think i'm going to go that route like you say.. just get 2 of those pin configurable adapters and call it a day. 

[FBz]

It’s possible that Caleb’s ALSO running into a similar problem that I had with the ol’ MDD… where I simply could not install Leopard or Tiger on a completely wiped (or new HD) without first having installed a much earlier and basic version of OS X FIRST. Quicksilvers originally shipped with OS 10.0.4 so maybe a version of Jaguar or possibly Panther… would be a better place to begin.

He was successful installing on a later made, G4 PowerBook which originally had OS 10.2.7 pre-installed. He didn’t change the HD in that - but “upgraded” to Tiger.

[part12studios]

oooooo interesting..  hmm anyone know where i could find an ISO of early OSX? 

[FBz]

Nothing in the disc collection from Mac Museum?

[part12studios]

FdB sent me al ink to Macintosh Repository.  going to start there! 

[GaryN]

What is irksome at this point though is that it seems like the leopard dvd actually will not install on any drive with these adapters.. like it doesn't like talking over the cable select (not master or slave)..  so yea i'm going to pop in a master set spinner and see if that behaves better tonight and if i notice a difference i think i'm going to go that route like you say.. just get 2 of those pin configurable adapters and call it a day.

Now that I'm finally involved / invested in this thread, I've re-read it and here's the little detail I think you're missing:

Master / slave and "cable select" cables are NOT identical.

In CS configuration, Pin 28 is grounded at the host end. This is how the HDDs know their positions on the single cable.
If the HDD can "see" the ground, it becomes Device 0… if not, it becomes Device 1

This is what I was talking about re: "hacking" your IDE cable. You can convert a M/S cable to a CS one by cutting the #28 wire between the drives so only the first one can "see" the ground. However, converting a CS one to a M/S one requires restoring the wire (which has probably been removed) between the black and gray HDD connectors… much harder to do. It's a bass-ackwards scheme that has to be just right in order to work… kinda like a 3-way light switch. If it's wrong, nothing will work. That's why you can't get Leopard to install… nothing can be read or written to the HDD.

Here's what else I know: The $6 bridge I said I bought was the same POS you have: the ADP-06. It's pure, unadulterated shit. That's why it's only 6 bucks. Buy the Star-Tech. The difference in build quality is instantly obvious when you see them side by side Hell, the StarTech even comes in a real box! You set it to cable select and end this misery.

It's $17 at NewEgg.

[part12studios]

oooooo i had no idea about that!  not the same?! ugh..  but wow great info!  the ones i bought for $3 each do work well, they just are hard wired to CS..  since i have a spare regular IDE cable i may explore that hack since going from M/S to CS is easy, it's worth a shot.

I just think it's interesting that OS9 installs like a dream and boots fine..  but OSX, now that hates these IDE adapters for whatever reason..  very very strange.

[FBz]

This is what I was talking about re: "hacking" your IDE cable. You can convert a M/S cable to a CS one by cutting the #28 wire between the drives so only the first one can "see" the ground.

Interesting information on converting M/S cable to a C/S cable. With this in mind, wonder if it might be possible to use one Star-Tech bridge in conjunction with an ADP-06 bridge in a Quicksilver… with the Star-Tech set on Cable Select… and then considering the positions occupied on the cable by the drives on that ribbon cable, as Cable Select works? Would it be absolutely necessary to have two Star-Tech (or Addonics) bridges???

Here’s a bit of fun…



Beginning with an 867 MHz Quicksilver and an OWC 120GB SSD (partitioned in 3 equal partitions of 37.26GB each) with an ADP-06 attached on the last socket of the stock M/S Quicksilver ribbon cable…

First partition comprised of already installed OS 9.2.2 (with DieHard’s Instant DAW present.) Other two partitions empty / blank.

Attempted to install OS 10.4 on the second partition (A). It went through the entire installation process up to the point that the machine rebooted and normally the Setup Assistant would appear after restart. Nope. Spinning, spinning and spinning until the old gray circle with a slash through-it appears. FAILURE.

Next, successfully installed Jaguar OS 10.2 on the second partition (B) without a hitch. After installation and reboot, Setup Assistant appeared and was completed. Full boot. Stable.

Back to Partition A now… and another installation of Jaguar 10.2 over the previous attempted 10.4 installation. Upon boot of 10.2 install CD - no installation allowed on Partition A without erasure/format of Partition A first. Afterwards, installation proceeded just like Partition B - successfully. THEN rebooted and inserted OS 10.4 installation disk. 10.4 disk asked if I’d like to “upgrade” and from there installation was a success on Partition A. Rebooted and the Setup Assistant appeared… and OS 10.4 successfully was installed and booted.

So, if you don’t want to snip the #28 wire of your Quicksilver HD ribbon cable, Or if you can get by with a multi-partitioned HD and not have to buy one or two Star-Tech or Addonics bridges… you can do the install as outlined above (except for maybe the number of partitions and overall size of the SSD or other SATA drive). YOU CAN install /upgrade via the original ribbon cable over an earlier version of OS X.

Of course, always nice to have two drives on that main cable, if you want. BUT dual boot on a single HD with two partitions IS possible. (You don’t need a third partition for OS 10.2.)

[GaryN]

I avoided getting into this for a long time for this very reason. It's a confusing clusterf**k.
You keep insisting on cobbling this shit together any way you can when you KNOW the thing to do is get two StarTech bridges and burn those POS green ones.

OS9 runs because you have it on the INNER GRAY IDE connector. How do I know that? Because a NON CS drive set to Master OR slave will work by itself on the END connector where it can't "see" the Pin 28 ground. It thinks it's on a "regular" cable. Connect it with the Black END connector and it will NOT work. IF it DOES, there's something totally different going on that I can't begin to figure out from here.

OSX should be able to be installed and work exactly the same way on the end connector BUT you know what? It wouldn't work that way for me either when I wasted a few hours on the green POS. You know that's time you don't get back, right?

Your biggest problem right now is that you have too many unknowns and some of those unknowns are known to be faulty.
For all you probably know, and for certain all I know, is the damn OSX disc could be bad BUT you can't determine that for certain because there are too many other unknowns. You cannot accurately TEST a part of a system unless you KNOW the rest of that system is GOOD.

$17 each at NewEgg and they even come with a warranty…… OR you can go even deeper into the woods by skirting around it as FBz described.

$17 each at NewEgg… OR you can futz around for another couple of days.
I'll even help confuse you more: http://www.unixwiz.net/techtips/ide-cable-select.html

$17 each………That's a lousy 34 bucks. Bye.

[FBz]

Finding references now that Apple switched the Quicksilvers to Cable Select with the 2002 models.

[IIO]

Finding references now that Apple switched the Quicksilvers to Cable Select with the 2002 models.

one must always be careful with apple products, there is nothing as it seems.

mind you, the QS 2002 has an ATA-5 controller but one which already supports 48 bit adressing out of the specs for most models. (it normally came with ATA-6)

if it works for you only with master/slave configurations, you just proved garys scientific hypothesis about different cables wrong. (have fun with that part of the discussion)

unfortunately i can not check it now because the machine is broken, but i could swear that i´ve use cable select in the 2001, too. i am pretty sure i could remember that if it had to remove a jumper when migrating.

until now i had luck with everything i am doing regarding ATA - and cheap SATA adapters. only the expensive sonnet card keeps giving me headache. :/