Author Topic: Contemplating buying a Mirror Door 1ghz unit vs my 867mhz QS  (Read 7112 times)

Offline part12studios

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Contemplating buying a Mirror Door 1ghz unit vs my 867mhz QS
« on: February 24, 2020, 09:06:15 PM »
Hi everyone, so i've been using my QS a lot and it's doing great.  However, a buddy of mine in Kansas City alerted me to a $30 working (booted to OSX) MDD 1ghz for sale.  Now shipping is likely to be $40-50 so that's definitely a factor..

So to the veteran gurus here

FdB has said I should if the shipping wasn't so bad..  but i'm willing to bite the bullet on that... but here are some of my concerns / comparisons..

1. My QS is 867mhz..  so clock is only 133mhz faster..  probably barely noticeable..  but maybe there was architecture changes that improved it more than just raw clocking.  I defer to your insight
2. The QS is pretty damn quiet as is..  once i removed the HDD and put an SSD in there, that i swear halved the noise it made..  but i've heard MDD's are noisy..  but maybe about the same?
3. Is Memory compatible with QS?  I'm not sure how much ram it has in it, but i have 1.25gb I would love to move over if needed rather than hunt around (and spend more money) upgrading it to at least 1gb. 
4. it would be 100% compatible with all of my cards?   I have the Media 100 J6000, an adaptec scsi card, my MOTU PCI-324, video card and now (huge thanks to FdB) the Keyspan Pro serial card

I don't really want to drop $80 to get like a 10% cpu increase..  but if maybe the MDD is a dual CPU model? 

I'm still doing mostly audio / realtime stuff..  and thinking maybe i'm better off holding out for a 1.25ghz model rather than spend all this now as an incremental step towards the fastest model out there.

Thanks in advance,
Caleb
« Last Edit: February 24, 2020, 09:19:08 PM by part12studios »

Offline IIO

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Re: Contemplating buying a Mirror Door 1ghz unit vs my 867mhz QS
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2020, 09:44:23 PM »
some of the dual 1.0 series dont have 48 an bit ide controller.
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Offline GaryN

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Re: Contemplating buying a Mirror Door 1ghz unit vs my 867mhz QS
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2020, 09:55:34 PM »
This is a close call. Let's start with: "i've been using my QS a lot and it's doing great."
     *That lessens the priority a LOT right there.

QS is 867. That means a 133 bus.
     * Same bus on MDD UNLESS it's a dual 1.0gHz, then it's 167 mHz BUT that's switchable on the motherboard.

You hear MDD's are noisy.
     * You hear correctly. MDD fan noise is a serious pain in the ass. Personally, I actually gave up and built a complete "quiet box". Of course, I then had to install fans in THAT which also make noise. Eventually you're a dog chasing his own tail.

QS memory compatible with MDD?
     *No.

PCI compatibilty.
     * 100% not a problem

* If it is a dual, they probably would have said so. Note however, a single 1.0gHz is probably a "Firewire 8oo" model which will require the special OS9.2.2 we have for it. No big deal otherwise.

* Note also you CAN (not necessarily should, but can) buy any MDD and dink around with different CPU boards. They are ALL interchangable, so you can "build up". Assuming you have nothing better to do of course.

* Oh yeah… As often as not, your "new" computer will arrive damaged because NObody uses common sense packing and shipping heavy electronics. There's a reason they have those elaborate styrofoam molded protection thingies. When they're gone, shipping becomes a HUGE risk.

This is where I go back to the top: "i've been using my QS a lot and it's doing great"
If it was me, I wouldn't fix what ain't broke.

Gary

Offline ssp3

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Re: Contemplating buying a Mirror Door 1ghz unit vs my 867mhz QS
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2020, 11:03:00 PM »
Spot on, Gary!
Caleb, you will be better off by installing some faster CPU upgrade in your QS.

Offline part12studios

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Re: Contemplating buying a Mirror Door 1ghz unit vs my 867mhz QS
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2020, 04:57:09 AM »
very interesting and thank you for that insight gary! 

Ok so yea here are pics of the device.  the owner is being cooperative and is happy someone may be putting it to use.  he took these pics:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vqi7xpxdjik8k3o/87469088_211690263316887_4912709031979646976_n.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/w67apsss4iqf5e8/87512271_667619510647311_4270321867417452544_n.jpg?dl=0

I don't know if he knows for sure, but hopefully someone here might be able to identify it.  i did notice it says 1Ghz DP (dual processor?)

Thanks to FdB, I realize that i almost certainly need to re-do the thermal past in my QS so I'm going to be getting in there tonight to restore that also.. so maybe i should shop around for a faster QS cpu instead?   what is the fastest CPU a QS can handle?  1ghz? 

I have to say i probably would opt to have a slower quiet machine than a faster noisey one.. i mean how much faster depends, heh.. 

Ok gotta get ready for work.


Offline part12studios

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Re: Contemplating buying a Mirror Door 1ghz unit vs my 867mhz QS
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2020, 07:04:53 AM »
So i came up with this search and there are a lot of options here..  what would be the best option here?  i see 1.4ghz.. but i also see dual processor 1ghz models..  a bit pricey but maybe i can make an offer to them, but first i need to know what the best / compatible options are for my device.  maybe it matters depending on the motherboard i have in my unit? 

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=g4+quicksilver+cpu&_sacat=0&rt=nc
« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 07:22:36 AM by part12studios »

Offline IIO

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Re: Contemplating buying a Mirror Door 1ghz unit vs my 867mhz QS
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2020, 11:05:06 AM »
not sure what you are trying to do with this. you cant just replace apple processor cards with faster ones from other models. to upgrade a processor you do that with third party products - and they are only available for quicksilvers.

like gary said, the MDDs with 1 ghz only have the same bus speed than the quicksilvers, so go for an MDD 1.25 or better.

the dual 1.4 has faster RAM, too, but is harder to find.
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Offline part12studios

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Re: Contemplating buying a Mirror Door 1ghz unit vs my 867mhz QS
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2020, 11:10:35 AM »
I am curious to know what the fastest/best quicksilver upgrade would be.

I am not sure I actually want a faster CPU if it means inheriting a bunch of extra fan noise

If I could instead find the best possible compatible G4 cpu for my machine I would be willing to consider investing in that and calling it a day.


Offline IIO

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Re: Contemplating buying a Mirror Door 1ghz unit vs my 867mhz QS
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2020, 12:12:58 PM »
the fastest ever was a dual 1.8 from sonnet, but that thing kept getting too hot and was pulled.

they also offered a single 1.6 and a dual 1.4 or dual 1.3 ... i think with 2 mb cache.

upgrading an 867 to 1.6 would be quite a step. compared to an MDD, wher the biggest step would be going from an 1.25 to that what @diehard did (he is using an 1.33 xserver processor, 2 mb cache, pushed to 1.5)

i dont remeber: at least one of the third party upgrade cards didnt support OS9 (or OS9 booting)

the worst you can do is to put a quicksilver processor into an MDD, they consume almost twice the power (90 instead of 50 watts), that can get dangerous. :P

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Offline DieHard

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Re: Contemplating buying a Mirror Door 1ghz unit vs my 867mhz QS
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2020, 02:52:25 PM »
Just re-iterating what was already said... due to boredom in the office

Quote
...The QS is pretty damn quiet as is..  once i removed the HDD and put an SSD in there, that i swear halved the noise it made..  but i've heard MDD's are noisy..  but maybe about the same?

Definitely, NOT the same, the QS is about 30% (or more) quieter as far as decibel levels

Quote
...Is Memory compatible with QS?  I'm not sure how much ram it has in it, but i have 1.25gb I would love to move over if needed rather than hunt around (and spend more money) upgrading it to at least 1gb.

The MDD uses faster RAM and more slots, that being said, you can read here on the forum about the max RAM OS9 will see, also our mods to get a little more out of the max, so if you load 2 GB in the MDD, OS9 will see about 1.5 GB of it... READ this...
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2101.0.html

Quote
I'm still doing mostly audio / realtime stuff..  and thinking maybe i'm better off holding out for a 1.25ghz model rather than spend all this now as an incremental step towards the fastest model out there.

Yes, the 1.25 will be a noticeable difference if you can deal with the noise, you also get some storage benefits, like room for 4 drives, and Ultra DMA 100 over Ultra 66, if you are using a SATA card then ignore this statement; lastly, the MDD can use Xserve CPUs and go to 133 stock or at lease 1.6 overclock modded (like Mactron does)

If you stay with the QS, this CPU is my favorite:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,3882.0.html

Offline GaryN

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Re: Contemplating buying a Mirror Door 1ghz unit vs my 867mhz QS
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2020, 04:14:45 PM »
So, as read from the pic of the sticker… As originally shipped
PowerMac G4; 1gHz Dual proc; 256Mb of PC2700 RAM; 80Gb HDD; Superdrive DVD; ATI Radeon 9000 Pro AGP Graphics card; 56k Modem

As seen from the other pic: More RAM added - can't tell how much;
Basically a stock original MDD in good shape

Don't forget: As has been discussed AD Infinitum here, the dual procs are almost useless in OS9. If you want to dual-boot OSX, they're great to have but almost nothing OS9 can use the second proc.

Here's where I repeat (also ad infinitum) If it ain't broke…
IF (note big IF) you're doing massive and/or high bitrate audio and/or 50 tracks at a time and/or etc. IN OS9…… you might want to move to the MDD…… IF you can find at least a 1.25gHz or preferably a 1.42gHz CPU OR you can wait for one keeping an eye on fleabay etc. because the 1.0Ghz is NOT going to make a significant difference over your QS.

That said, I will also tell you that while I have a 2x1.8gHz Sonnet in my MDD and you'd have to pry it from my cold, dead fingers, I also have a 2x1.42gHz "in the vault" just in case the Sonnet takes a dump. I wouldn't let that go either.
Why an I telling you this? Because I think, as time marches on, more and more people are hoarding the "good shit" just like me and it's getting scarce. It will either take you longer to find then 1.42 or will cost more, or most likely both.

Offline part12studios

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Re: Contemplating buying a Mirror Door 1ghz unit vs my 867mhz QS
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2020, 07:59:18 PM »
Thanks GaryN for that.  I see your point and thanks for pointing out the dual cpu not being utilized in OS9..  i'm kinda keeping the Sawtooth 450mhz i think for similar reason about as time marches on..   to be frank i wouldn't say even my QS 867 felt like THAT much more omph than my 450mhz sawtooth..  when it came down to using plugins it wasn't like i could use x2 as many reverbs before cpu choking was happening..  yes it was better, but no it wasn't nearly x2 times as fast..  even though the clock speed was almost double.. 

When doing some mixing this last weekend on a song that's basically a NIN challenge to feature an old effects processor..  https://youtu.be/HN8wNe2zSAM?t=83 

Next I need to figure out how to get the Behringer BCF2000 to integrate into it so i can use the faders to control the

I'll keep my eye out.. I'm going to check out this Mac Museum giveaway going on Sunday in Malden MA..  the owner has sold off most of the stuff i think on ebay and such but a few things are left over and likely mostly just external devices and a few computers there laying around.  not really sure what will come of it, but hopefully something fun to tinker with.

I'm happy with my setup.. everything is working..  i got the serial card (thanks FdB!) so soon I'll be able to do serious MIDI testing.. life is pretty damn good..   maybe some day i'll get my hands on an MDD maybe not.. until then I'm going to get as much mileage as i can out of these machines..   

Offline FdB

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Re: Contemplating buying a Mirror Door 1ghz unit vs my 867mhz QS
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2020, 08:05:11 PM »
RIP Adam Rosen - August 31, 2019
All our collective hats here, off to Oakbog.

Get there early Caleb and do provide pics please.
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Offline part12studios

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Re: Contemplating buying a Mirror Door 1ghz unit vs my 867mhz QS
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2020, 08:36:06 PM »
it must have been quite a collection in it's day.  i never new it existed and i've been here since 2011.  I wish I had seen it in it's prime and met someone who shares our love of vintage computing. 

I will definitely take some pics.  let me know if anyone is looking for anything in particular too.  mostly likely to be mostly books, external devices and software..  from the pics i saw mostly half complete machines and parts. 

Offline FdB

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Re: Contemplating buying a Mirror Door 1ghz unit vs my 867mhz QS
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2020, 09:06:10 PM »
I'll keep my eye out.. I'm going to check out this Mac Museum giveaway going on Sunday in Malden MA..  The owner has sold off most of the stuff i think on ebay and such but a few things are left over and likely mostly just external devices and a few computers there laying around.

There's possibly gold in them there "few things left over & computers laying around".

For those possibly unaware... here's the website: http://vintagemacmuseum.com/home/say-hello-again/
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Offline IIO

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Re: Contemplating buying a Mirror Door 1ghz unit vs my 867mhz QS
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2020, 09:38:40 PM »
you also get some storage benefits, like room for 4 drives, and Ultra DMA 100 over Ultra 66, if you are using a SATA card then ignore this statement

yeah, there is room for 4 in the QS, too. :)

funny how i keep mixing up diehard and mactron, isnt it. sometimes i think i just dont hard enough.
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Offline IIO

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Re: Contemplating buying a Mirror Door 1ghz unit vs my 867mhz QS
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2020, 09:46:05 PM »
and thanks for pointing out the dual cpu not being utilized in OS9

it might be that it is discussed a lot, but i think it is beeing discussed a lot because there are other opinions around as well.

i wouldnt call cubase, logic, photoshop, after effects, filemaker or quicktime player "nothing". these apps is why people use OS9.

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2618.msg16051.html#msg16051
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Offline part12studios

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Re: Contemplating buying a Mirror Door 1ghz unit vs my 867mhz QS
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2020, 09:53:38 PM »
so those programs were made to take advantage of dual processing?  where other older or simpler apps were not optimized for it? 

Offline part12studios

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Re: Contemplating buying a Mirror Door 1ghz unit vs my 867mhz QS
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2020, 09:55:05 PM »
@FdB i will certainly be looking for any gold i can find in them thar hills.. heh.  i'm not going with high expecations.. could be a ton of people there to sweep up a bunch of stuff..  just going to take it all in and hope for the best. 

Offline DieHard

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Re: Contemplating buying a Mirror Door 1ghz unit vs my 867mhz QS
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2020, 09:19:21 AM »
RIP Adam Rosen - August 31, 2019
All our collective hats here, off to Oakbog.

It is extremely weird that he died of the same thing as Steve Jobs, at only 53, Adam died of Pancreatic cancer :(

Also, I never knew he grew up on Long Island as I did, many parallels are in the mac universe.... hmmmm

Offline DieHard

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Re: Contemplating buying a Mirror Door 1ghz unit vs my 867mhz QS
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2020, 09:36:50 AM »
so those programs were made to take advantage of dual processing?  where other older or simpler apps were not optimized for it?

There are some merits to what IIO has said... If you are interested about Dual CPUs in OS9 read our at length discussion here:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=2618.0

IMO Cubase is out :(  There is very little difference with "multiprocessor" selected and this turns a "rock solid" program into an unstable one.

As far as the other applications that claim "MultiProcessor" support under OS9 (Logic, Photoshop), they are usually referring to "specific" plugins that were written to run on the 2nd processor, now if that plugin misbehaves I doubt OS9 will error gracefully.

As far as any overall benefits of a dual CPU system under OS9...I never saw that materialize in the real world, just more heat to deal with :(

In fact if anyone here can actually benchmark and compare ANY app themselves that utilizes both CPUs in OS9 and makes a post that would be really cool... yes, we all have our own opinions here

Offline part12studios

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Re: Contemplating buying a Mirror Door 1ghz unit vs my 867mhz QS
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2020, 11:00:34 AM »
yea that makes sense..  i'd take stable over fast for sure..  Digital Performer 3 works really well.  every now and then if i go UNDO crazy I have accidentally crashed it.. but all in all it's been very stable..

So i know there were some replies but it felt a bit mixed since in the mix were dual cpus as well, to clarify:

"what would the fastest QS compatible cpu out there i should be looking for?" 

As this time I think i'm going to hold off on MDD mostly due to the noise and likely that one i was considering would likely be nearly $100 with shipping..   and i couldn't get him to verify the actual ram in there..  so at this point if i do anything, i'll keep an eye out for deals on QS compatible cpus.

Tonight I think I'm going to re-apply thermal paste.. not sure it's ever been touched since it was made..   


Offline DieHard

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Re: Contemplating buying a Mirror Door 1ghz unit vs my 867mhz QS
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2020, 02:43:29 PM »
From my post above...

Did you read this yet ?

If you stay with the QS, this CPU is my favorite:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,3882.0.html

Offline part12studios

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Re: Contemplating buying a Mirror Door 1ghz unit vs my 867mhz QS
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2020, 03:14:33 PM »
ah thank you!  sorry yes i think that slipped by me..

So that's the ultimate for QS..  I'll keep an eye out but i imagine it's very rare The OWC Mercury Extreme G4 like Rooster teeth!   

what about this 1.4ghz unit? 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-4GHz-G4-Upgrade-CPU-7450-7455-like-Sonnet-for-Apple-Power-Mac-Quicksilver-AGP/293490006381?hash=item44555e196d:g:XtUAAOSwWMld7ZNe

$110 with shipping.. not a steal, but at least if it works it's worth considering for noise sake..   and if i know this one works maybe there will be cheaper ones that come along. 


Offline GaryN

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Re: Contemplating buying a Mirror Door 1ghz unit vs my 867mhz QS
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2020, 06:45:34 PM »
That's interesting for sure. I'm not totally adverse to taking risks but this is an overclocked 7455 on a 7450 daughterboard.
It's a hack being sold with NO warranty and NO returns, so it's a crapshoot.

I see he also is selling duals: https://www.ebay.com/itm/DUAL-1-4GHz-G4-Upgrade-CPU-2MB-L3-7455-like-Sonnet-Apple-PowerMac-Quicksilver/293490013125?_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D225664%26meid%3D4cb8367a25d84ab0b9d834ff9f82c54b%26pid%3D100010%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D293490006381%26itm%3D293490013125%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DDefaultOrganicWithTitleNsfwFilter%26brand%3DApple&_trksid=p2047675.c100010.m2109

This is a pretty slick thing he has going if they work… Wanna be a beta tester?
Well, doya punk?

Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Contemplating buying a Mirror Door 1ghz unit vs my 867mhz QS
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2020, 06:34:34 AM »
ah thank you!  sorry yes i think that slipped by me..

So that's the ultimate for QS..  I'll keep an eye out but i imagine it's very rare The OWC Mercury Extreme G4 like Rooster teeth!   

what about this 1.4ghz unit? 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-4GHz-G4-Upgrade-CPU-7450-7455-like-Sonnet-for-Apple-Power-Mac-Quicksilver-AGP/293490006381?hash=item44555e196d:g:XtUAAOSwWMld7ZNe

$110 with shipping.. not a steal, but at least if it works it's worth considering for noise sake..   and if i know this one works maybe there will be cheaper ones that come along.

Don't know if you saw this one or not:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Giga-Designs-G4-7447A-2Ghz-Apple-CPU-Processor-Upgrade-Accelerator-Sonnet-Rare/233454214951?hash=item365af49f27:g:6KUAAOSw3tdeCywf

It's actually a 1.8 I think, not really a 2.0 (nope that's wrong) ... studying it a little more, based on the Giga Designs part numbering system, it looks like their kit had a speed range that they were designed to operate in. The p/n on the one EveryMac refers to as a 1.8 is 7A-1418U (1.4 to 1.8 speed range)

The part number for one this seller is offering is 7A-1620U ... so 1.6 to 2.0 maybe ?

Same seller has another slower one available as well.

They're across the pond in the UK ... but that may not be all that much further away than KC ...  ;D
« Last Edit: February 27, 2020, 06:45:31 AM by GorfTheChosen »

Offline part12studios

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Re: Contemplating buying a Mirror Door 1ghz unit vs my 867mhz QS
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2020, 06:58:40 AM »
yea at $232 is getting above my pay grade.. heh..  i'm looking for things in the free-$100 range for anything.. be it a significant QS upgrade or a new box.. 

i know these units were thousands back in the day..  i remember buying my first Mac, a 400mhz G4 Sawtooth for $1500 (no monitor) which is crazy in hindsight..   had to take a personal loan out to buy it.. couldn't even afford an audio interface for it.. just used the stereo in / out in the back, but did manage to buy a used MIDI Express.. 

But lately after paying $25 for my current 450mhz Sawtooth and then about the same for the Quicksilver..    I honestly think that if i could get my hands on a top-range MDD I'd be able to live with the noise..  I could probably find some ways to muffle the sound when recording with an open Mic.. most of the time i do line in stuff so no amount of room noise would effect the actual recordings.. 

week has been crazy though.. gearing up for trip this weekend..   didn't get to do the thermal paste..  iching to configure this serial port PCI card and test out midi..  i swear there are some noticable USB latency problems.. like in Digital peroformer, when using arpegiation, any meter over whole notes ends up being off a slight bit.. and same goes for just basic midi playback of stuff... things feel kinda lose and night tight at times..  i'm eager to see if maybe using serial for midi will be tighter..