Author Topic: Latest Casualty ...  (Read 11553 times)

Offline GorfTheChosen

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Latest Casualty ...
« on: February 15, 2020, 10:00:32 AM »
Went into the studio yesterday and the G4 800 Dual was off, when I had left it running the night before. Push the power button on the front panel and it lights but the unit does not power on. No spinning drives, no fans, no chime ... nada.

I recently went through this machine and gave it a really thorough cleanout, which included pulling the PSU and the case and processor fans, vacuuming/blowing them off and then cleaning the latter two items with rubbing alcohol. In the process it appears as though I swapped the case fan around, with it blowing air in, rather than exhausting air out ...  ::)  Vacuumed and blew out the rest if the case, etc. Replaced the battery.

After doing the above the machine ran fine for better than week. In that time frame, I did a couple of upgrades: added 4th internal (PATA) hard drive, added an Adaptec 4-Port USB 2.0 Model USB2connect 4000 PCI card.  That card does have an issue with sleep IIRC ... and it's possible that I may have forgotten that and put the machine to sleep before I left the studio.

At this point the machine will not power on.

What I have tried so far (in roughly the order tried):

Disconnected from power (30+ minutes), removed battery, pressed front panel switch, and later re-installed battery (which is reading 3.6 - 3.7 volts) Reset the CUDA switch. No joy.

Pulled and then reseated the two PSU connectors on the logic board. No. joy.

Pulled all ram and reseated the DIMMs in their original slots. No joy.

Pulled all ram and reseated the DIMMs in different slots. No joy.

Pulled all ram and tried one DIMM only, each one at a time. No joy.

Removed and reseated the cable from the mobo to the front panel power board on both ends. No joy.

Connected the old Microconnectors USB keyboard (with the Power button) from the Mac Mini and tried to power it up that way, bypassing the front panel board. (Normally this would work) No joy.

Disconnected power and signal lines on all four hard drives (two on the mobo ATA, two on an ACARD ATA 133 RAID card) and tried to see if it would boot with only the DVD-R hooked up. No joy.

Pulled the two PCI cards (ACARD RAID and Adaptec USB) and tried to boot it. No joy.

Pulled the AGP card (GeForce2 MX) and replaced it with the one from the G4 Dual 450 (think that one is an Apple OEM 32MB Radeon 7500) No joy.

The only thing I get when I press either power button (keyboard or front panel) I get a brief flash from the red LED on the logic board ... but no joy.

Last night I went ahead and pulled the heatsink and the dual processor daughtercard, cleaned those up and redid the thermal paste, and then reinstalled ... thinking that at this point what could it possibly hurt ?

I have not tried to power it up since then.

The only additional thing I have not done at this point is check the PSU to see if the appropriate voltages are present ... so I guess that's next.

Any insights or thought appreciated.

Offline FdB

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2020, 10:23:00 AM »
I have not tried to power it up since then.

The only additional thing I have not done at this point is check the PSU to see if the appropriate voltages are present ... so I guess that's next.

Very damned thorough approach. Kudos Gorf.

Try to power up after re-paste. The PSU is highly suspect.

Before PSU removal, check to see if PSU fans attempt to even “bump” on momentarily.
Most likely, PSU has expired. But do check voltages. (Is it an MDD or a Quicksilver?)
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Offline IIO

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2020, 11:36:45 AM »
exactly, if something else than the PSU is wrong, the machine should at least attempt to power on for some 0.5 seconds or so (makes a short noise for the fans to switch on)
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Offline ssp3

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2020, 11:54:28 AM »
This sounds like a trickle power problem to me. Most probably dried out capacitor(s) in that circuitry. Exchange them for the fresh ones and you'll be good. I had similar problem with my G4 Digital Audio a couple of years ago.

Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2020, 12:06:13 PM »
Very damned thorough approach. Kudos Gorf.

Why, thank you ... (bows ... humbly ...  ;D)

Try to power up after re-paste. The PSU is highly suspect.

Good.

Wasn't sure whether that red led flashing on the mobo was indicating that the PSU might be good or not.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if it were the PSU ... this machine has seen a lot of "power on" hours, a good deal of which where it was working very hard. Plus all the dust and crud ... which I should have kept a better handle on.

Before PSU removal, check to see if PSU fans attempt to even “bump” on momentarily.

Will do.

Will probably let it set awhile longer before I put the power to it though ... have seen some stories in my travels of "I let it set with the power disconnected for xx hours and when I tried to start it, it fired right up !"

Most likely, PSU has expired. But do check voltages.


If the PSU is all it is, that would be very welcome news ... particularly since that nice mail lady just delivered a new 500w ATX power supply about 15 minutes ago ... along with the diodes and an external 24v power supply to do an ATX--->G4 PSU conversion.

If it's not, then perhaps the new PSU will go in the G4 450 Dual ... which, sadly, is in a similar condition ...  :(

One thing I have noticed - now that I'm paying attention - is that when plugging in the AC power into the PSU there is a definite arc between the plug PSU power receptacle and the power cord ... can't recall whether that is normal or not.

(Is it an MDD or a Quicksilver?)

Just an original Quicksilver (2001 ?) ... (replete with the Rev. A logic board which doesn't support drives over 127 GB ?)

Thanks.

Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2020, 12:11:05 PM »
exactly, if something else than the PSU is wrong, the machine should at least attempt to power on for some 0.5 seconds or so (makes a short noise for the fans to switch on)

Yeah ... I don't think that is happening ... but I'll verify on the next attempt to power up.

Thanks.

Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2020, 12:14:50 PM »
This sounds like a trickle power problem to me. Most probably dried out capacitor(s) in that circuitry. Exchange them for the fresh ones and you'll be good. I had similar problem with my G4 Digital Audio a couple of years ago.

Caps in the PSU ?

Offline ssp3

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2020, 02:32:03 PM »
Yes, in the PSU. Look for the string of several resistors in series that runs from main large capacitors (high voltage) to a small-ish cap after that string (or something similar, PSUs do differ in construction). That cap is the most likely culprit.
No need to make a franken-mac with non-original PSU ;)


Offline FdB

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2020, 05:33:46 PM »
Here's two different PSU's from two different Quicksilvers.
(They do vary considerably & can be more difficult than MDDs.)
But yes, do a visual check for swollen or leaking caps before
attempting replacement. Maybe you'll find one easy to replace?
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Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2020, 05:56:20 PM »
Well here's what I've discovered thus far:

Pin 22 - which is the white wire - is supposed to be +25v (Standby) ... and has around +25v present with the machine plugged into AC power.

Pin 15 - which is the green wire - is supposed to be +5v (Power On) ... and has +4.89v present with the machine plugged into AC power.

Pins 4, 6, 20, and 21 - which are all the red wires - are supposed to be +5v ... but thus far none of those appear to have any voltage present. (I'll be rechecking these when I resume)

Of course, the probes on my meter are really too large to really fit down in the plug to get to the metal terminals ... so it's hit and miss. So I tried to cobble something together ... first using small paper clips (too small), and then using small finishing nails (almost too large) Maybe large paper clips will be the sweet spot of "just right".

Part of the difficulty of doing this - and having some real certainty of the result - is a lack documentation of a/the procedure. What little I've been able to figure out has come from around 3 or 4 different sources: jcsenterprises.com MDD PSU testing writeup, ATXG4.com's "How to adapt an ATX PSU to replace your G4's PSU" write up, and outofspec.com's similar writeup on adapting an ATX PSU to power a FrankenMac he built from a Sawtooth I think.

Two of the three are focused on the "how-to" of an adaptation to replace a PSU, and the third - which does focus on testing and diagnosis - is for a different model Power Mac model than I have, with a different PSU.

Not really knowing exactly which wire should be "live" when powered off kinda hampers knowing exactly what I'm seeing.

On another note, the replacement PSU looks and feels pretty impressive for a cheap ATX power supply ... it's hefty, has a snotload of wires ... including the proper power connectors for SATA drives ... and the metal case actually appears to be ... chrome plated ...  :o

Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2020, 06:11:55 PM »
Yes, in the PSU. Look for the string of several resistors in series that runs from main large capacitors (high voltage) to a small-ish cap after that string (or something similar, PSUs do differ in construction). That cap is the most likely culprit.

Good, thanks.

No need to make a franken-mac with non-original PSU ;)

Well ... I have no experience whatsoever doing component-level board repairs ... but I haven't let things like lack of experience stop me before ... and I did watch 25+ minute 'tube on "Soldering Tools and The Basics for Beginners" earlier today ...  ;D

But point taken.

Here's two different PSU's from two different Quicksilvers.
(They do vary considerably & can be more difficult than MDDs.)

Yeah ... pretty sure both the ones I have (for the Dual 450 and the Dual 800) are similar to the model on the left ... although they are from different manufacturers (one is an AcBel and the other is a Delta)

But yes, do a visual check for swollen or leaking caps before
attempting replacement. Maybe you'll find one easy to replace?

Will do ... thanks.


Offline ssp3

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2020, 08:32:17 PM »
Here's some starting point for you:
https://audioxpress.com/article/repairing-switching-mode-power-supplies

Apple PSUs are a bit more complicated than those mentioned in the article, but the operating principles are the same.

Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2020, 10:29:03 PM »
The larger paperclip seems to be a better fit as a test post/probe.

Updated results:

Still nothing showing up on all the red wires (Pins 4, 6, 20, and 21) and are supposed to be +5v.

All orange wires (Pins 1, 2, 8, and 12) which are supposed to be +3.3 read 0.00v

(Actually Pin 1 has two wires crimped into the terminal in the plug - one orange and one brown)

The purple wire (Pin 9) has +25v on it.

The yellow wire (Pin 10) reads 0.00v.

The blue wire (Pin 12) reads 0.00v

All remaining wires are black (Pins 3, 5, 7, 11, 14, 16, 17, 18, and 19) and should be GND.

That pretty much completes all the readings for the P1 plug.

The only wires with any juice are Pin 9 (purple, +25v), Pin 15 (green, +4.9v), and Pin 22 (white, +25v)

Oddly enough, my Quicksilver wiring harness from the PSU looks (notice how these images are labelled) like this:

http://atxg4.com/images/Gigabit.jpg

Not this:

http://atxg4.com/images/Quicksilver.jpg

... except that I have the extra P2 lead with the two yellow 12v lines and two GNDs show in the second image.

The pinout image for Quicksilvers @ http://www.outofspec.com/frankenmac/wire.shtml jives better with what I have.

On my P2 plug:

The two 12v lines on P2 lead read 0.00v when checked to the two black ground wires adjacent to them.

Tried powering the unit up on the bench with all the drives disconnected, still no dice ... just a quick flash of the red LED on the mobo and the fan inside the PSU does absolutely nada ... no hint of even trying to rotate.

Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2020, 11:17:44 PM »
Here's some starting point for you:
https://audioxpress.com/article/repairing-switching-mode-power-supplies

Apple PSUs are a bit more complicated than those mentioned in the article, but the operating principles are the same.

Thanks - appreciate you linking to that.

Just glancing over it briefly, it looks to be a good primer on the basic design theory behind how PSU's work.

It will be some work for me to get through it and truly understand it, as I'm no EE ... but I'm sure it will be helpful.

Offline FdB

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2020, 06:56:15 AM »
To possibly further confuse things… the Gigabit Pinout example looks ok when compared to the (right) PSU pictured above / with a similar, single connector.



The Quicksilver Pinout is a bit confusing and the example shown is from an Acbel PSU (the left one, pictured previously above). If you rotate the Gigabit Pinout image 180˚ to the left, does it then not match the Quicksilver Pinout as the connectors actually are? (Same goes for the QS Pinout image graphic / top P1 connector.) AND what you refer to as the P2 lead (with the yellow and black wires) is labeled P4? The QS Pinout image graphic is perhaps just a little whacko?



Gorf, have you tested trickle pins with the “power on” (green wire pin 15) jumpered? Trickle voltage should be present without this (but I always enjoy the possibility of seeing sparks fly).  ::)
(Disconnect all power connectors from mobo completely.) Might be a total shame if your type A board was somehow at fault and you’d then have to upgrade to a B board?

AND… no evidence yet of swollen or leaking capacitors inside? And - no evidence of burnt traces, etc.? The “sniff test”.

Andy Cuffe (acuffe@gmail.com) down in Austin Texas for PSU refurb service. Andy even offered members here a discount (previously) so you might check with him. Old eBay link for his services: https://www.ebay.com/itm/REPAIR-SERVICE-Apple-PowerMac-G4-Mirror-Drive-Doors-Power-Supply-MDD/141030901102?hash=item20d618c56e:g:~RsAAMXQysxSAA61

Have never attempted the ATX route myself and there are those here that view that approach as sheer and utter sacrilege… so there is that risk of being ostracized.  ;)
It is however difficult at best to resist the wiles of a nice mail lady und of course,  zee chrome plating.

“Klaatu barada nikto”?

And… a very good reference link there, ssp3. Thanks.
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Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2020, 01:12:16 PM »
To possibly further confuse things… the Gigabit Pinout example looks ok when compared to the (right) PSU pictured above / with a similar, single connector.


Right.

The Quicksilver Pinout is a bit confusing and the example shown is from an Acbel PSU (the left one, pictured previously above).

A bit.

If you rotate the Gigabit Pinout image 180˚ to the left, does it then not match the Quicksilver Pinout as the connectors actually are?

Yes, it does.

(Same goes for the QS Pinout image graphic / top P1 connector.) AND what you refer to as the P2 lead (with the yellow and black wires) is labeled P4? The QS Pinout image graphic is perhaps just a little whacko?


Just a little whacko.

There's one specific error in the Quicksilver image that I can see: Pin 9 (+25v) is shown as being yellow in the Quicksilver pinout picture, when in reality (apparently on both your end and mine) it is actually purple.

Error on the part of the person who created the image … or an accurate reflection of the variation of the PSU’s that are out there, in terms what has has actually been produced and deployed in the field ?

I really don’t know … but I do know that when I run into a contradiction like that I find it confusing at best and it makes my head hurt.

Gorf, have you tested trickle pins with the “power on” (green wire pin 15) jumpered?

No.

I had done some digging around on the 'net to try and find a procedure for metering a power supply after "tricking it" into thinking it was on by jumpering it. That ended up being sort of a mixed bag, although I saw at least one article where the author said that a PSU should not be “turned on” without something attached to it.

How would I do that … what pin would I jumper Pin 15 to ?

And what are these “trickle pins” of which you speak ?

Trickle voltage should be present without this (but I always enjoy the possibility of seeing sparks fly).  ::)

(Disconnect all power connectors from mobo completely.) Might be a total shame if your type A board was somehow at fault and you’d then have to upgrade to a B board?

Assuming I could find a working one at a reasonable price, I would not be heartbroken.

What “trickle voltage” value am I looking for ?

And where should it be present ?

AND… no evidence yet of swollen or leaking capacitors inside?

I haven't taken the PSU back out of the machine yet and opened it up again. I’ll do that here in a little bit.

When I had it out previously, I did take the cover off in order to clean it out ... and nothing really jumped out at me at that time as far swollen or or leaking caps ... but then it was working at that point, and I was wasn't really trying to diagnose an immediate problem.

And - no evidence of burnt traces, etc.? The “sniff test”.

Yeah ... no, not that I've noticed anyways. Pretty sure I would.

When I had the processor daughtercard off to redo the thermal paste I used a paint brush to clean the dust off ... I got a pretty good look at it then and nothing really stood out. And I was kind of looking for it too, as I had read of one tale where a fellow had claimed his father's (or mother's brother's uncle’s ... or something) daughtercard had a hole burned right through it when it failed.

Not really seeing anything obvious on the mobo either.

My assumption has always largely been that it IS the PSU that is at fault.

Have seen some saying that these machines should not be left connected to AC power if they are going to be shutoff for long periods of time, due to heat generated in the PSU and its fan not being on.
 
Andy Cuffe (acuffe@gmail.com) down in Austin Texas for PSU refurb service. Andy even offered members here a discount (previously) so you might check with him. Old eBay link for his services: https://www.ebay.com/itm/REPAIR-SERVICE-Apple-PowerMac-G4-Mirror-Drive-Doors-Power-Supply-MDD/141030901102?hash=item20d618c56e:g:~RsAAMXQysxSAA61

Yeah thanks ... saw the thread (started by GaryN here ?) last night after I replied to you and ssp3.

Andy’s repair/refurb service appears to be pretty impressive - very fast turnaround and very reasonable pricing.

Have never attempted the ATX route myself and there are those here that view that approach as sheer and utter sacrilege… so there is that risk of being ostracized.  ;)

I can only imagine ...  ;D

It is however difficult at best to resist the wiles of a nice mail lady und of course,  zee chrome plating.

Of course.

“Klaatu barada nikto”?

For now anyways … if I have to spend another 12 hours trying to get frickin’ W2K to reinstall on the PC that could change however.

 >:(

Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2020, 03:48:15 PM »
Some images.

G4 800 PSU:


Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2020, 03:49:40 PM »
G4 450 PSU:


Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2020, 03:53:04 PM »
Except for one small cap (behind the orange wires) in the first image, I don't see any signs of anything leaking or being swollen.

The top of that one small cap does seem to be slightly pushed out/up.

No obvious signs of anything being fried ... to me anyways.

Offline IIO

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2020, 05:07:06 PM »
it is actually not a bad idea to learn how to fix the PSU yourself when it dies, but otoh a good soldering kit is like 50 dollars, it is more than one hour work, you can f*ck it up if you dont know what you are doing, you have to find the right parts before...
« Last Edit: February 17, 2020, 02:54:07 PM by FdB »
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Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2020, 06:35:03 PM »
it is actually not a bad idea to learn how to fix the PSU yourself when it dies, ...

I'd agree.

In fact, it's not a bad idea to be able to learn how to fix anything when there's a problem with it.

but otoh a good soldering kit is like 50 dollars,

I have several cheap soldering irons, along with one fairly decent one ... but decent Weller station off eBay is on my list, along with a hotair gun.

it is more than one hour work, you can fuck it up if you dont know what you are doing, you have to find the right parts before...

I still have a bit of a runway as far as feeling entirely comfortable with doing soldering work on PCB's - especially on something that still has considerable value to me (both economic and sentimental  :D)

Both of these machines are one-owner - me - I purchased them new at the time they were current models.

Parts might be available thru Digi or Mouser or some place like that ... or fleabay.

Having said all that, when the G4 800 took its dump a few days ago I was about to order a cap kit off Amazon for the power board in an old Samsung display that died a few years ago.

I also have several breadboards and a dead PSU that I replaced (20 years ago ?) out of an 8100 that I can practice on if I really get the itch and I decide it needs scratched.


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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2020, 08:13:50 PM »
Except for one small cap (behind the orange wires) in the first image, I don't see any signs of anything leaking or being swollen.

Yup, that green capacitor with da puffy top is most likely ka-put. Those green caps (TEAPO brand - are junk. They're in the MDD PSU's too). Might as well replace 'em all. (Except for those big fat black ones - unless they're puffed or leaking.) Disassemble completely, taking pics as you go and become familiar with the negative & positive legs and their configs on the board for each cap so that new ones will go back in correctly. Once you have 'em all out and their individual specs noted - Digi, Mouser, etc. can provide replacements for less than you might ever imagine. Draw yourself a map / legend of where all the caps are located along with spec notes for each individual cap and their positive /negative leg orientation on the board.

A couple of things...

Solder wick - flat braided copper (to remove old solder cleanly from the board). If you're not into paying for a solder station, wick's a good way to go.
Chip-Quik. A wonderful little product that also helps in solder removal. You'll get the hang of it's use fairly quick and love it.
Solder Sucker. NO. Too much trouble from these spring-loaded pieces of crap... that get clogged and simply just drive you nuts.
Opti-Visor magnifier or a flex-neck mounted magnifier and some point light to illuminate the work spot.

If you're serious about delving into this, I can provide more info and pics to possibly help, tomorrow?
I think everyone should try this little exercise at least once.
If unsuccessful, a warm appreciation of Andy's services can definitely occur.
If successful, well then there's that warm fuzzy feeling of accomplishment. ;)
It's bedtime here... g'night all.
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Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2020, 09:56:20 PM »
Yup, that green capacitor with da puffy top is most likely ka-put. Those green caps (TEAPO brand - are junk. They're in the MDD PSU's too). Might as well replace 'em all. (Except for those big fat black ones - unless they're puffed or leaking.) Disassemble completely, taking pics as you go and become familiar with the negative & positive legs and their configs on the board for each cap so that new ones will go back in correctly. Once you have 'em all out and their individual specs noted - Digi, Mouser, etc. can provide replacements for less than you might ever imagine. Draw yourself a map / legend of where all the caps are located along with spec notes for each individual cap and their positive /negative leg orientation on the board.

Sounds like a plan.

A couple of things...

Solder wick - flat braided copper (to remove old solder cleanly from the board). If you're not into paying for a solder station, wick's a good way to go.
Chip-Quik. A wonderful little product that also helps in solder removal. You'll get the hang of it's use fairly quick and love it.
Solder Sucker. NO. Too much trouble from these spring-loaded pieces of crap... that get clogged and simply just drive you nuts.
Opti-Visor magnifier or a flex-neck mounted magnifier and some point light to illuminate the work spot.

Yeah ... I have some solder wick here already. Bought for another repair project ... which I have yet to get to ...  ::)

And I've been looking to get something as far as an illuminated magnifier ... my biggest problem these days with seeing, especially small stuff indoors, is there never seems to be enough light.

If you're serious about delving into this, I can provide more info and pics to possibly help, tomorrow?

That would be great.

What I'm most serious about delving into (personally, at least), is repairing the the power board for the Samsung LCD monitor (it was a nice monitor ... that I really liked  ;D), which I removed from the display in the last week. The cap kits are around $10 - $15 on Amazon, and it's a flat board, which should be easy to work on ...

On the G4 800 PSU, I'll likely send it to Andy, depending on what I hear back from him on a quote and the estimated turnaround time. I'd like to have that machine up and running as soon as I can.

I think everyone should try this little exercise at least once.
If unsuccessful, a warm appreciation of Andy's services can definitely occur.
If successful, well then there's that warm fuzzy feeling of accomplishment. ;)

Makes sense to me.

Pic of the board I need to recap:

Offline FdB

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2020, 09:34:30 AM »
That Samsung power board looks like a good place to begin… nice and flat, plenty of surrounding space to work on the individual caps and not too much of that white goopy, glue-ish stuff to remove. In fact, none of that on any of the caps with marked tops that I presume were marked as questionable or slated for replacement. (The QS AcBel PSU is a slightly different story.) From your pic, looks like there are 6 primary caps marked & slated for replacement. So you could spend $10- $15 for that Amazon cap kit OR once primary suspects are removed and specs taken from the sides of each cap… maybe less than $6 ordered from Digi or Mouser. (But then there’s the minimum shipping costs to also figure in.) BUT you’d get to choose which brand of caps you’d like. AND if you wait to order all your caps (for the AcBel PSU too) there’s only that one shipping charge to figure in.

I pulled the board out of the AcBel PSU housing last night and it looks like there are six of the TEAPO caps (most of them with swollen tops) that it’ll need. (One on the attached, fan control board.) I think GaryN provided the technical-term name for that white goopy, glue-ish stuff… but I don’t remember it now. Anyway, there’s much of that in the AcBel PSU to contend with. [I remain unafraid.] Sometime in the next week or two, I’ll have those TEAPO caps out and you could then add them (exact specs) to your Samsung LCD cap order… along with some of the items in my possible “shopping list” for you?



I try not to order anything from the Bezos Syndicate. Especially after they built a freakin’ fullfilment center a block and a half from my home. (+30% on my property taxes in one year!)

Anyway…



I’ve got a Weller WPS18MP / 60 Watt soldering “pencil” about two years ago and it has worked very well for me. (Returned the first one of these that I purchased as it did not work at all.) Many bad reviews of them online but evidently I got a good 2nd one. [I really want a Hakko soldering iron but have yet been able to self-justify that expense.] I think that both Lowe’s & Home Depot carry the Weller. Around $30.00. A welcome, lightweight replacement for my old Radio Shack iron and it also features a little LED work light. It is not a cordless device although they probably make a cordless version.

CAIG brand, Tip Tinner & Cleaner. Normally use this after the iron first heats up and then when finished before storing the iron. (Sometimes during the session too if it’s a long session.) Also use a four-folded paper towel to wipe excess from a hot iron before soldering / de-soldering. Not costly but well worth whatever is does cost.

CHIPQUIK SMD1 - SMD Removal Kit (Around $10.00 if I remember correctly.) Rarely do I ever use everything in the kit… but I do use the SMD291 tack flux (tube) that comes with the kit. Seems to help with solder removal. (With many thanks to MacOSPlus for the ChipQuik referral.)

Solder Wick. Size #4. I use hemostats to grab and hold opposing sides of the wick to expand it a bit and this seems to help with heating and removing solder within the wick. (Shorter tip-on-board time.) And with the help of fingernail clippers (or actual snips made to cut smaller electronic items) I trim the used wick from the wick end, as I go. Clippers are also good for trimming legs of the caps after installation.

I’ve a “Bio-Therapeutic” magnifying visor with several different magnifying lenses included ($3.00 at the thrift store.) It also has a light-over-lens light. But I still have an original Opti-Visor and various other, stationary desktop magnifiers but It all depends upon how long the session might be or if it’s merely a “quick one”. (Have one of those articulated, mounted magnifiers with the alligator clips for very small… or “wire work”.) And I sometimes use “Pony” clamps to hold and stabilize larger boards like the MDD PSU’s.

Tweezers!

I’m certainly no authority on any of this but I had success with an MDD AcBel PSU previously. Refer to this thread: http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,4088.msg28012.html#msg28012 Lots of good info contained therein, and not really so much from me.

If you’re not going to tackle the QS PSU, I might hold off on this one. BUT I am thinking about using an extreme heated X-Acto knife blade to slice through that white goopy stuff… just for fun.

*Please do let everyone know Andy’s estimate? And mention the forum, just in case he’s still offering us a discount. Thanks.
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Offline IIO

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2020, 01:11:19 PM »
my impression that repairing a broken PSU is unmanageable rocket science grows with every post here.
insert arbitrary signature here

Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2020, 05:02:57 PM »
my impression that repairing a broken PSU is unmanageable rocket science grows with every post here.

 ;D

Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2020, 05:33:45 PM »
That Samsung power board looks like a good place to begin… nice and flat, plenty of surrounding space to work on the individual caps and not too much of that white goopy, glue-ish stuff to remove. In fact, none of that on any of the caps with marked tops that I presume were marked as questionable or slated for replacement. (The QS AcBel PSU is a slightly different story.) From your pic, looks like there are 6 primary caps marked & slated for replacement.

It's actually not my pic ... it's the seller's, who's selling the cap kits on Amazon.

There are actually multiple sellers on Amazon, selling these cap kits - I just used the one who posts a pic of the board ... to show the relative ease of working on that board vs. a PSU where one has to contend with significant amounts of that white goop that's slathered over quite a few components.

While I have not definitely verified it by an exacting comparison of the kits they offer, it seems the parts that go bad are a known thing on those displays (that kit covers multiple displays I believe)

So you could spend $10- $15 for that Amazon cap kit OR once primary suspects are removed and specs taken from the sides of each cap… maybe less than $6 ordered from Digi or Mouser. (But then there’s the minimum shipping costs to also figure in.) BUT you’d get to choose which brand of caps you’d like. AND if you wait to order all your caps (for the AcBel PSU too) there’s only that one shipping charge to figure in.

OTOH, there's other stuff I need (not available at Digi or Mouser) that's already in my cart at The Borg ...  ;)

I wonder, if after some 20+ years, Digi would still have my account info on file ...  ;D

BTW - I was wrong: both of these G4 PSU's are AcBel's ... the Delta PSU came out of the Power Mac 8100.

Further response coming to the rest of what you wrote shortly ...

Offline ssp3

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2020, 05:36:51 PM »
FdB, take the picture of the underside of that PSU board and post it. Swapping those Teapo-cheapo caps is fine, but the trickle power cap is much smaller and located somewhere else.
And, please, guys, don't be cheepskates and buy genuine caps from reputable distributor, not some "kits" on Amazon. These days fakes are everywhere!

Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2020, 06:08:16 PM »
I pulled the board out of the AcBel PSU housing last night and it looks like there are six of the TEAPO caps (most of them with swollen tops) that it’ll need. (One on the attached, fan control board.) I think GaryN provided the technical-term name for that white goopy, glue-ish stuff… but I don’t remember it now. Anyway, there’s much of that in the AcBel PSU to contend with. [I remain unafraid.] Sometime in the next week or two, I’ll have those TEAPO caps out and you could then add them (exact specs) to your Samsung LCD cap order… along with some of the items in my possible “shopping list” for you?

Yeah ... I could actually do that ... hold off on ordering the caps for the Samsung until later. I really don't have an immediate need for it ... other than to just get it off the bench to make room for some more crap.


I try not to order anything from the Bezos Syndicate. Especially after they built a freakin’ fullfilment center a block and a half from my home. (+30% on my property taxes in one year!)

Ouch.

Anyway…

I’ve got a Weller WPS18MP / 60 Watt soldering “pencil” about two years ago and it has worked very well for me. (Returned the first one of these that I purchased as it did not work at all.) Many bad reviews of them online but evidently I got a good 2nd one. [I really want a Hakko soldering iron but have yet been able to self-justify that expense.] I think that both Lowe’s & Home Depot carry the Weller. Around $30.00. A welcome, lightweight replacement for my old Radio Shack iron and it also features a little LED work light. It is not a cordless device although they probably make a cordless version.

This is what I currently have here. I think both were picked up at the local electronics supply store before they went out of business.

The Lenk is 25w and Made In the USA and appears to be pretty cheap. The ECG is 40w, dunno where it was made but it's a little nicer ... came with 6 - 8 replaceable tips of different sorts.


Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2020, 06:34:37 PM »
CAIG brand, Tip Tinner & Cleaner. Normally use this after the iron first heats up and then when finished before storing the iron. (Sometimes during the session too if it’s a long session.) Also use a four-folded paper towel to wipe excess from a hot iron before soldering / de-soldering. Not costly but well worth whatever is does cost.

CHIPQUIK SMD1 - SMD Removal Kit (Around $10.00 if I remember correctly.) Rarely do I ever use everything in the kit… but I do use the SMD291 tack flux (tube) that comes with the kit. Seems to help with solder removal. (With many thanks to MacOSPlus for the ChipQuik referral.)

Solder Wick. Size #4. I use hemostats to grab and hold opposing sides of the wick to expand it a bit and this seems to help with heating and removing solder within the wick. (Shorter tip-on-board time.) And with the help of fingernail clippers (or actual snips made to cut smaller electronic items) I trim the used wick from the wick end, as I go. Clippers are also good for trimming legs of the caps after installation.

Good info, thanks.

Based on the other thread you linked, I'll have to see what I've got in the way of solder wick ... it might be junk at this point if it's unsealed (it's been stored in an unheated outbuilding for quite a few years)

I’ve a “Bio-Therapeutic” magnifying visor with several different magnifying lenses included ($3.00 at the thrift store.) It also has a light-over-lens light. But I still have an original Opti-Visor and various other, stationary desktop magnifiers but It all depends upon how long the session might be or if it’s merely a “quick one”. (Have one of those articulated, mounted magnifiers with the alligator clips for very small… or “wire work”.) And I sometimes use “Pony” clamps to hold and stabilize larger boards like the MDD PSU’s.

Tweezers!

Good deal ... yeah, there's a few things I need to pick up to make this a little easier.

I already have a stand for the soldering iron with a little rectangular dish for a wet sponge. And a pair of articulatable alligator clips on a weighted metal base which I have used for wire work. (Next project for that is soldering in a new fan on a LinkSys Gigabit ethernet switch to see if that restores functionality or whether it has already fried itself ... just need to pickup some heat shrink tube)

Hemostats, etc. ... could use a little more in the way of tweezers, picks and probes though. Have to see what we have that I can appropriate  ;D

Biggest thing is probably lighting and magnifying solution. And some clamps.

I’m certainly no authority on any of this but I had success with an MDD AcBel PSU previously. Refer to this thread: http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,4088.msg28012.html#msg28012 Lots of good info contained therein, and not really so much from me.

If you’re not going to tackle the QS PSU, I might hold off on this one. BUT I am thinking about using an extreme heated X-Acto knife blade to slice through that white goopy stuff… just for fun.

You have one in particular you like ?

*Please do let everyone know Andy’s estimate? And mention the forum, just in case he’s still offering us a discount. Thanks.

Will do ... and thank you for your insights.

Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2020, 06:35:58 PM »
FdB, take the picture of the underside of that PSU board and post it. Swapping those Teapo-cheapo caps is fine, but the trickle power cap is much smaller and located somewhere else.
And, please, guys, don't be cheepskates and buy genuine caps from reputable distributor, not some "kits" on Amazon. These days fakes are everywhere!

Good point.

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2020, 07:09:50 PM »
I'll get an underside pic posted tomorrow.
AND be back with more... blabber.
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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2020, 04:20:43 AM »
A few random thoughts:

As part of my journey on the way to here, ran across an individual doing board repair and/or restoration. Dunno exactly how I found him, possibly could have been a commenter on japamacs website or somehow connected to him (Apple Discussions maybe) Anyways, he had a couple of posts on his own site about getting into that field which I found interesting. Even possible that he's a member here, don't know. I'll include the link, as it may be of use to someone, as he discusses his setup/tool kit in a couple of posts:

https://thehouseofmoth.com/logic-board-repair-two-years-later/

After looking around on eBay for a bit, the thought has occurred to me that just getting another Power Mac G4 could be a fairly quick solution to the problem I was trying to solve (dead computers) The upsides are that they are relatively cheap and often a good bit more powerful than what I presently have (feeling the 1.42 DP MDD lust  ;D) ... downsides are that they vintage now too, and likely will need repair work in the future.

While I wait for a quote on getting those two power supplies repaired, a more immediate solution would seem to be just proceeding with the ATX--->G4 PSU replacement. This would do a several things: 1. provide immediate access to one of the machines (and the files stored on it's hard drives), 2. serve to confirm whether or not I actually have a bad PSU or that it's something else, and 3. provide a back up PSU in the event of another failure in the future.

Since (theoretically) the only thing getting modified is an ATX PSU extension cable, it's a relatively cheap and easy solution to implement. A single ATX PSU could serve as a back up for multiple machines of different generations, all for the cost of ATX PSU extension cable. (IOW: about $5 or $6 bucks per PSU variation)

The only uncertainty I have at the moment is whether the +25v ADC power, which the ATX PSU lacks, plays any real part in the workings and operation of the logic board, beyond just powering an attached display.

As I mentioned in another thread, I recently got the Power 9600 fired up again with the Sonnet G4/450 installed in it. The original hard drive had 9.1 installed and I went ahead and installed OS X 10.3 on an IBM fast and wide drive I had hooked to the 9600's external SCSI bus via a 68-pin--->50-pin adapter. Would have installed 10.4 ... but I couldn't get the 9600 to see the firewire-attached DVD drive.

10.3 seemed stable - once I figured out I needed to use PostFactor slow down the processor during the early phases of booting OS X to get it to install.

However that changed when I tried to install the ATTO ExpressPCI SCSI card, so I would be able to use the Ecrix VXA-1 tape drive to to access some old back ups. While the ATTO card saw the tape drive, Retrospect didn't. So at that point I pulled the ATTO card and tried an Adaptec Power Domain 2940UW. I think at this point I've traced the tape drive problem to an issue with the Retrospect installation (requires their "Advanced Driver Kit" to use that particular device) - after reinstalling Retro it sees the tape drive - although I haven't tried to access and restore any of the VXA-1back ups yet (Just as an aside, I did use Retro to access, re-catalog, and then restore about six or eight 15 year-old back up sets that I had on DAT. It went off without a hitch and the files seem fine - which kind of surprised me, given that they had not been accessed for 15 - 20 years)

Still haven't solved the finickiness of the ATTO card ... which is kind of disappointing in that it appears that the Adaptec card definitely will not work for hosting an OS X boot drive. I'm not entirely sure whether the ATTO will either for that matter. But if it's possible I'd like to set it up that way.

Offline FdB

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2020, 06:14:02 AM »
FdB, take the picture of the underside of that PSU board and post it.

As per ordered:
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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2020, 08:45:18 AM »
Clean-up bits…

Figured that might not be your pic of the Samsung monitor board.
Same email address as 20+ years ago? Easy enough to check / renew with Digi.
RE: Borg shopping cart. Resistance is not futile.
Both AcBel PSU’s you have - slightly different wiring harnesses?
I’d remove the caps (marked on that pic) from the Samsung and begin the caps list.
(You could even check their resistance / continuity with multi-meter while you wait.)
Bezos sucks / blows, etc. Race to the bottom.
I like the 40W ECG. Maybe a fresh tip? Might need more heat. Samsung will tell.
0000 steel wool and then blow the old solder wick off well (until new wick arrives).
(My historic and often habitual use of steel wool makes many here cringe.)
Lights? Flex-neck + normal light bulb base - LED bulb(s)? 3-5000˚K



Magnifiers? (I’ve spares that could be mailed. PM me that address? You cover postage.)

“One in particular that I like.”  / One what? X-Acto knife blade?

And RE: your last post…

If thehouseofmoth is attempting an MDD Samsung PSU resurrection… his yarbles are much bigger than mine. (I’ll stick with the AcBels and the Deltas.) Samsungs are too jam-packed for my taste and much more difficult to disassemble IMO. AND when a Samsung PSU bites the dust, it’s usually an extreme and “catastrophic failure”. (per Andy.) Think he also included the word violent in his description.

Regarding the 1.42 MDDs… I’ve a pair that I rarely (if) ever boot. Prefer the elegant “simplicity” of the 1.25 MDD und the Quicksilvers. One could always overclock those IF  that little increase in processor speed is that desired. I don’t waiver much from stock specs and hopefully reduce instances of instability. YMMV (Maybe why I’ve yet to succumb to the ATX PSU path?)

Perhaps one of your now-targeted & eventually resurrected machines would handle the tape drive & ATTO card better than the 9600? / K.I.S.S.?

Hopefully ssp3 can enlighten us as to the mysterious trickle power cap location. Also, perhaps the same for the MDD PSU? http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,4088.msg28011.html#msg28011


ooooh, clickable image

my impression that repairing a broken PSU is unmanageable rocket science grows with every post here.

Perhaps IIO is confusing rocket surgery with brain science? (Dain bammage?)  ::)
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 09:11:10 AM by FdB »
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Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2020, 10:02:43 AM »
Clean-up bits…

Figured that might not be your pic of the Samsung monitor board.
Yeah, it's not.

Same email address as 20+ years ago? Easy enough to check / renew with Digi.
Nope ... different email. But yeah, would be easy enough to check.

RE: Borg shopping cart. Resistance is not futile.
Probably not.

Both AcBel PSU’s you have - slightly different wiring harnesses?
Yes. Slightly different wattage outputs and model numbers as well, IIRC.

I’d remove the caps (marked on that pic) from the Samsung and begin the caps list.
(You could even check their resistance / continuity with multi-meter while you wait.)
Would give me something to do while I wait for the CDs for Tiger to burn ...

Bezos sucks / blows, etc. Race to the bottom.
Yeah ... I'm not terribly keen about what I've heard about they treat the hired help.

I like the 40W ECG. Maybe a fresh tip? Might need more heat. Samsung will tell.
A fresh tip I can do. Have to see about a new sponge as well.

0000 steel wool and then blow the old solder wick off well (until new wick arrives).
I'll have to see if I can round up the solder wick.

(My historic and often habitual use of steel wool makes many here cringe.)
:)

Lights? Flex-neck + normal light bulb base - LED bulb(s)? 3-5000K
That's what's illuminating the photos I posted of the PSU's - a simple flex neck with maybe a 60w or 100w 5000K LED bulb clamped onto the shelf on the bench. It's a little dicey though, since one side of the spring clamp jaws are broken. Still trying to find that piece so I can glue it back together.

I have an articulated desk lamp that swivels and you can raise and lower ... but I'm still looking for the rest of the parts to the base for that ... that's what I'll use ... once I find the rest of the parts for it.

Magnifiers? (I’ve spares that could be mailed. PM me that address? You cover postage.)
Appreciate the thought.

“One in particular that I like.”  / One what? X-Acto knife blade?
A heated one ...

And RE: your last post…

If thehouseofmoth is attempting an MDD Samsung PSU resurrection… his yarbles are much bigger than mine. (I’ll stick with the AcBels and the Deltas.) Samsungs are too jam-packed for my taste and much more difficult to disassemble IMO. AND when a Samsung PSU bites the dust, it’s usually an extreme and “catastrophic failure”. (per Andy.)
If AcBels and Deltas aren't jam-packed, then the Samsungs must be truly impressive ...

Regarding the 1.42 MDDs… I’ve a pair that I rarely (if) ever boot. Prefer the elegant “simplicity” of the 1.25 MDD und the Quicksilvers. One could always overclock those IF  that little increase in processor speed is that desired. I don’t waiver much from stock specs and hopefully reduce instances of instability. YMMV (Maybe why I’ve yet to succumb to the ATX PSU path?)
That could very well be ... but possibly a wise move on your end ...  ;D

As far as the variations between the 1.25 and 1.42 go, I'm not really up on that ... although I think I did run across something about some issues with the 1.42.

Perhaps one of your now-targeted & eventually resurrected machines would handle the tape drive & ATTO card better than the 9600? / K.I.S.S.?
Perhaps ... but I just gave the ATTO card another shot and it freezes the cursor at the grey screen every time no matter what I do (SCSI devices connected/disconnected/powered on/powered off etc.) Both LEDs on the card are lit, indicating that it is terminating the bus high and low ... with wide devices on both the internal and external connections. It should not do that - termination on the card should be disabled I believe.

After that little exercise I pulled it and stuck the Adaptec back in and while the computer boots fine, nothing shows up ... no SCSI devices or the Power Domain card itself. And both ends of the chain (internal and external) are terminated.

Apple System Profiler, SCSI Probe, ATTO Express Pro Tools, Power Domain Control, nor the Adaptec flasher see the card ... WTF ?

I'm almost ready to heat up the oven and toss the ATTO in and see if that does anything for it.

Hopefully ssp3 can enlighten us as to the mysterious trickle power cap location. Also, perhaps the same for the MDD PSU? http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,4088.msg28011.html#msg28011

my impression that repairing a broken PSU is unmanageable rocket science grows with every post here.

Perhaps IIO is confusing rocket surgery with brain science? (Dain bammage?)  ::)
No idea.

Offline ssp3

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2020, 02:02:18 PM »
FdB, I looked at the picture but that wasn't it. As I said in my first post to this thread there must be a string of high-ish value resistors connected in series somewhere and a cap after that string. IIRC, these were surface mount in my PSU. I repaired mine some 5-7 years ago and can't remember everything.. Maybe they were on the other board that sticks out vertically. If you post a picture of it from both sides maybe I'll be able to help furter.

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2020, 04:32:46 PM »
Here’s what I refer to as the “Fan Control Board”.
Hadn’t considered completely removing this board as access to remove & replace that one green TEAPO cap is easy enough from the back side.


*Note white dot on PCB, corresponding with gold stripe on the TEAPO capacitor.


Back view
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Offline ssp3

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2020, 05:35:05 PM »
OK, see that green wire? What's written on the main PCB besides it? ON/OFF ! :)
From what I can see from the pictures, the trace from the green wire goes to Pin 2 of the sub-board. Also, the trace from pin 1 of the sub-board goes all along the left side of the main PCB down to high voltage part. That must be it, the start-up part.
My guess is that one of the light-green caps must be at fault. You can't determine which one is bad by simply looking at them. They might look OK, but measure faulty. (I measured mine with LCR bridge). Exchange them all, while the PSU is dissasembled and see what happens. If nothin else is burned and symptoms were "not starting up after sitting idle for some long-ish time", I'll give 90% probability that it will work.
Do not try to remove the sub-board, you will damage the main PSU! Try to work on it as it is. Slowly and carefully. Make sure not to desolder any SMT parts accidentaly. Use fine tipped soldering iron. If needed use file tool on the tip.  Also, note the polarity of the caps. Best way is to put a mark on the board.
Good luck!

P.S. My PSU was different (Delta?).
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 05:52:34 PM by ssp3 »

Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2020, 06:13:18 PM »
Quote from Andy was $130 to refurb both PSUs if they were sent in together. No discussion of whose dime return shipping will be on, so I'd guess it would be mine. Might account for the slightly cheaper price than what he posts on eBay, where he covers return shipping back to the customer. Dunno, hafta see.

Found the solder wick ... it's NTE and still in the sealed package, a little dusty on the outside but probably not too much worse for wear.

The 3rd (of 4) OS Tiger Install CDs should have burnt and verified while I was having my afternoon nap. Using Fetch to FTP the Toast images down to Power Mac 9600 from the Mini to burn is working well. Kudos to GaryN for the suggestion.

It appears from reading this thread:

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,566.msg1500.html#msg1500

... member "supernova777" was experiencing similar problems as I have been. Unfortunately there's no posted outcome/resolution in that thread to his difficulties ... which might have been useful ... although the thread does provide some linkage to a question I asked, but never got an answer to:

"How to check the PSU without it being connected to the logic board ?" or "What pin do you jumper Pin 5 to get it to try and turn itself on ?"

Answer: Jumper Pin 5 to (any ?) GND (Duh)

That will be on tonight's menu of activities ... probably along with seeing if I can flash the PC mobo up to the latest version of its BIOS and get W2K to install.

If that all goes well maybe I can get a Mac BIOS flashed into the GeForce 7800 GS ...

Should probably throw this link in as well, as it covers whether (and how) the lack of +25v from PSU is or isn't an issue (it's a mixed bag apparently: doesn't prevent the mobo from functioning generally, but you can forget juice to the Firewire ports, and powering an ADC display of course):

http://forums.applecentral.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/475402/G4_to_ATX_conversion
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 08:47:44 PM by GorfTheChosen »

Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2020, 09:14:28 PM »
Tiger CDs are finished.

Jumpered Pin 5 to GND on both PSU's while they were plugged in and nada ... which gives me some reassurance that I won't be sending out working PSU's to be repaired when they're actually functional.

Reinstalled the following cards into the 9600:

Wired4DVD card (I have the card but no drivers or software for it, at least that I can find - anyone have any insights ?)

ProMax TurboMax ATA66 card (rubber feet drive mounting brackets are due in tomorrow so I can double stack a pair of PATA drives on the front floor of the 9600 and still have all the PCI slots available)

Farallon 10/100 NIC (anybody have favorite for a Gigabit NIC that works under both OS 9 and X ?)

ADS Technologies FireWire 400 card

Adaptec 4-port USB 2.0 card

It almost feels modern ...  ;D

Had a closer look at that power board for the Samsung display ... there's at least 3 or 4 caps that are pretty swollen.

If I can find a sponge for the soldering iron I might take a crack at removing them yet tonight.

Offline ssp3

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2020, 09:40:38 PM »
Jumpered Pin 5 to GND on both PSU's while they were plugged in and nada ... which gives me some reassurance that I won't be sending out working PSU's to be repaired when they're actually functional.

I wouldn't test any switched mode PSU without the load attached, whatever internet "experts" say..

https://superuser.com/questions/552574/turning-on-atx-power-supply-with-no-load

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2020, 10:51:31 PM »
I wouldn't test any switched mode PSU without the load attached, whatever internet "experts" say..

https://superuser.com/questions/552574/turning-on-atx-power-supply-with-no-load

Yeah ... internet "experts" ... lol ...

It's certainly true that there are lots of very knowledgable and highly trained individuals out there ... and others that don't have a clue, but are certain they do. The disadvantage that ignorant folks like myself are at, is that you can't always tell them apart easily.

Had Apple chosen to adhere to the ATX standard, I probably would have been safe to plug it into this and been good to go:


Offline IIO

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2020, 12:48:31 AM »
sorry if this sounds ignorant, but shouldnt one just see which capacitor is broken? and then replace it? (or all of them?) no need to measure anything.
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Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #44 on: February 19, 2020, 06:10:29 AM »
sorry if this sounds ignorant, but shouldnt one just see which capacitor is broken? and then replace it? (or all of them?) no need to measure anything.

IIO,

The attached image is of the power board from my Samsung display.

Which caps on it are broken and need to be replaced ?


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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #45 on: February 19, 2020, 08:49:03 AM »
For the most part, it is fairly easy to remove and replace the (well-known) poor quality TEAPO capacitors (and any other suspect, swollen, domed or leaking caps) once you get the hang of it. The smaller, lime-green ones on the AcBel “sub-board” (mentioned above by ssp3) might not be quite as easy - BUT if the computer has exhibited the “failure” symptoms as described above… those smaller caps on that board might as well be replaced while everything is disassembled.

The capacitors themselves cannot be tested in-circuit (while on board) without an ESR tester / meter [or other suitable device(s) / LCR bridge?] and this would represent an added cost that would likely exceed Andy’s cost of repair, coupled with the cost of all the needed replacement capacitors. SO, unless you’ve many PSU’s to repair or replace / or you intend to offer this as a questionably lucrative service to others… the purchase of an ESR meter (etc.) adds an increased cost when you could just remove and replace the suspected BAD capacitors… which has worked for me previously. No guarantees implied. May not always work but worth a shot for minor cost.

Again, Andy’s fees are very reasonable.

I’m certainly no expert and I continue to learn as I go, but that’s just me. Besides, I’ve enough G4’s here to keep me busy until my own MTBeforeF and I probably should invest in an ESR meter. Others with a similar curiosity and the will to try… and to possibly learn as they go - might attempt the shotgun (scatter-gun) approach of simply removing and replacing most of the caps (and especially the TEAPOs). Replacement capacitors themselves are very inexpensive - all things considered.

The AcBel PSU that we've been discussing here did not power its’ fan when I got it. Instead of repairing or re-capping the PSU then, I powered the fan with an external power source wired directly to the fan because the PSU still powered everything else just fine (for well over a year)… until that too failed. I then simply installed another working PSU (thanks to darthnVader) and put the failed one “on the shelf” until GorfTheChosen began his quest here and I thought it might be time to attempt a tandem repair effort.

So, should Mr. Gorf choose not to proceed and instead opt to send his PSU’s to Andy (who has offered great prices for his services btw) this AcBel PSU will probably just go back onto the shelf until later. BUT, we’ve already learned a bit about those other tiny caps on that sub-board in this little adventure, thanks to ssp3. As for “not powering up a switched mode PSU without a load attached”… again I am definitely no expert - but the MDD’s PSU didn’t seem to mind this previously, nor did this QS AcBel PSU. So, do or don’t… it’s up to you. YMMV / Proceed entirely at your own risk.

*Note: The MDD’s PSU still had its’ fans attached in-circuit so there was a “load” present during jumpering. The AcBel’s PSU fan was not - as that circuit was incomplete or non-functional. Power testing at that fan connector on that sub-board (with the PSU power jumpered) provided a voltage reading that simply was there at first and then quickly bled off to zero volts. It still powered the QS (after that jumpering) for a well over a year before eventual total failure of the PSU.

"No user serviceable parts inside."

Might be willing to friendly wager that I could remove the AcBel sub-board and then replace it without damaging the “main PSU”.
(The location of C216 might actually necessitate this.) Here’s the sub-board for the Delta PSU.

Much more open and easier access than the AcBel - but much smaller caps.
And it has a hard-post-soldered config to the main board using 19 base solder points.
The AcBel sub-board has a pin-in-socket config, held in place only by the “white goop” on the backside.
(Maybe a thorough cleaning of the pins and the sockets might be in order?)


Addendum:

I lied.



AcBel sub-board has 15 legs soldered to the main board (actually only 12 of them are soldered). Used ChipQuik SMD 291 spread with a toothpick on each solder point and then several 1/4” cuts of expanded solder wick - clamped in hemostats for better pinpoint control for each point to remove solder. Took some time but no problems. White goop removal / carefully using X-Acto #17 (flat squared blade) and a #11 (normal angled blade) to final, careful cut under bottom seal of sub-board. I did not heat these blades.

AND I had noticed what appeared to be burn or heat-related darkening here (see yellow dot). Might also note burned-look on top of C216. Shirley (don’t call me…) the loose leg and that possible intermittent connection would have definitely caused some possible damage over time? AND now, might be a bit easier to access & replace the five, domed TEAPO caps on the main board… as well as removing and testing the much smaller caps off of the sub-board… before ordering new ones.

Positive (+) legs for the caps on the sub-board are clearly marked on that board… & now have this pic for future reference if necessary. Should be much easier to solder sub-board back than it was to remove it.

IF I continue with this effort, I’ll post images of the solder points for the cap replacements on both the main board and the sub-board. (Unless someone beats me to this.) ;)
« Last Edit: February 19, 2020, 12:32:08 PM by FdB »
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Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #46 on: February 19, 2020, 10:16:35 AM »
Great stuff FdB ... thanks.

The Borg order was delivered a little bit ago, with the 625 piece assortment of heatshrink tubing and I can now happily report that the Linksys Gigabit switch is off the bench, "repaired", and is currently ungoing testing.

After cleaning up the tip on the ECG I think I'll stay with that one for a while ... didn't look to bad to me, and I really don't I've used it all that much.

Time maybe to take a stab at some cap removal on the Samsung board.


Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2020, 10:59:33 AM »
Would have been a little easier had the pins been left straight and not been bent over on the backside of the board.

It will be interesting to see if it comes back ... after I get done carving on it ...  ;D


Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2020, 11:03:34 AM »
New hard drive brackets installed.

They fit together well enough that you can pick both up by just grabbing the top one ... not that I'd recommend it.


Offline IIO

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2020, 12:42:59 PM »
Which caps on it are broken and need to be replaced ?

ouh.

yes, when you recap a mixing console you also replace just all of them^^
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Offline IIO

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #50 on: February 19, 2020, 12:46:41 PM »
The capacitors themselves cannot be tested in-circuit (while on board) without an ESR tester

so you need to test them to find out what they are? because it is not printed onto them?
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Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #51 on: February 19, 2020, 03:09:19 PM »
... Again, Andy’s fees are very reasonable. ...

I thought so ... to the point that the PSU's are now on their way to him.

It's not that I have no desire to learn or am unwilling to undertake the project, as much as I have other things on my plate at this point ... and I want both of those machines back up and running asap.

If you feel so inclined, I'd be quite happy for you to continue to post your PSU rebuild progress in this thread - it would be a good resource for myself and others I'm sure (I still have power board for the Samsung to do, as well as the PSU for the 8100, plus the PSU for the 9600 has never been pulled and cleaned ... so when I get around to that, I might just go ahead and recap it if it looks like it might need it)

Of course you may have other fish to fry yourself so to speak ... in any event, I really appreciate you taking the time and effort to share what you have thus far. I feel like I learned a lot ... while also feeling that I've just started to scratch the surface and still have a long, long ways to go.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2020, 05:14:38 PM by GorfTheChosen »

Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #52 on: February 19, 2020, 07:25:07 PM »
I've gotten six caps off so far - probably could stand to have a slightly more powerful soldering iron:

Four CapXon 820uF25v C716 GL105C

Two CapXon 330uF25v P714 GL105C

I'm assuming (without bothering to check) the first set of digits in each item is the capacitance/voltage rating ... in microfarads and volts ?

The second set of digits is possibly a part number or some industry standard number ?

And that the last set of digits in each item above is some kind of duty rating/standard/spec.

This is the kit I was going to buy:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007HKIMGK/ref=ox_sc_act_title_4?smid=AYGPIL1HDJBP1&psc=1

The seller is LCD Alternatives (been on The Borg since 2011) and supposedly they "only use the highest quality Panasonic, Nichicon and Rubycon capacitors" in their kits ... and they seem to be pretty well rated (Zero 1 or 2 star ratings, 75% 5 star)

Going to Digi is like trying to navigate a maze ... they offer so many different brands, etc.

I punched in what I assumed were the part numbers above and got back a number of items which didn't necessarily match exactly (either capacitance or voltage was different, sometimes both)

Do I need an exact match to the specs ... or would say a 820uF cap with a voltage rating of 30v be fine ?

OTOH, an advantage of going Digi is they have those really snappy looking Hakko nippers with the red handled soft Comfort Grips ;D:

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/american-hakko-products-inc/CHP-170/1691-1037-ND/6228793


Offline ssp3

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #53 on: February 19, 2020, 09:04:44 PM »
Quote
CapXon 820uF25v C716 GL105C
CapXon = Manufacturer
820uF = capacitance, in this case 820 microfarads. You can use slightly higher value (1000uF) if that's what's available.
25v = maximum operating voltage, higher rating is OK, you can use 35V, 40V, 50V, 63V etc.
C716 = date or batch code, irrelevant.
GL = probably series name
105C = maximum operating temperature in degrees Celsius

Quote
This is the kit I was going to buy:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007HKIMGK/ref=ox_sc_act_title_4?smid=AYGPIL1HDJBP1&psc=1
It's up to you whether to purchase from them or not. The page does not specify what brand you will get. It could be Panasonic, it could be Nichicon, it could be Rubycon or any mixture of the above. Each of these manufacturers have zillions of various series - UC, UFC, FC, ZL, ZX, ZLX.. The page does not specify that either.
I personally have no respect for the so called kit sellers. Those guys are usually there only to make quick buck. They buy surplus in quantities and then make a kits with whatever they have at hand.
Also, I've seen a lot of fake Rubycon caps lately in all sorts of budget recording gear, especially in Golden Age Neve and Urei clones, so beware.

Here's one example of G5 cap kit:
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18916
« Last Edit: February 19, 2020, 09:38:34 PM by ssp3 »

Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #54 on: February 19, 2020, 11:47:57 PM »
Quote
CapXon 820uF25v C716 GL105C
CapXon = Manufacturer
820uF = capacitance, in this case 820 microfarads. You can use slightly higher value (1000uF) if that's what's available.
25v = maximum operating voltage, higher rating is OK, you can use 35V, 40V, 50V, 63V etc.
C716 = date or batch code, irrelevant.
GL = probably series name
105C = maximum operating temperature in degrees Celsius

Thanks - that clears up a few things.

Quote
This is the kit I was going to buy:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007HKIMGK/ref=ox_sc_act_title_4?smid=AYGPIL1HDJBP1&psc=1
It's up to you whether to purchase from them or not.

Of course.

The page does not specify what brand you will get. It could be Panasonic, it could be Nichicon, it could be Rubycon or any mixture of the above. Each of these manufacturers have zillions of various series - UC, UFC, FC, ZL, ZX, ZLX.. The page does not specify that either.
I personally have no respect for the so called kit sellers. Those guys are usually there only to make quick buck. They buy surplus in quantities and then make a kits with whatever they have at hand.
Also, I've seen a lot of fake Rubycon caps lately in all sorts of budget recording gear, especially in Golden Age Neve and Urei clones, so beware.

Good to know.

The things folks will do to make a buck (smdh) ... had no idea no prevalent this apparently is.

Yeah, no ... if I'm going to go to the trouble to do it I don't want to put junk back in it.

Here's one example of G5 cap kit:
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18916

Ahhh ... badcaps.net ... I saw a mention of that in one of FdB's earlier posts in another thread ... had it on my list to check it out ... hadn't made it there yet tho' ...

Thanks for linking to it.

Interestingly enough, this Topcat fellow has a mobo cap kit available for that PC I've been trying to get W2K to install on - MSI 694D Pro Version 1.0 ... might do something for the flakiness on the CPU v_cores ...

I assume he/they might be an exception to your outlook on kit sellers.

Thanks for the insights ...  8)

Offline FdB

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #55 on: February 20, 2020, 10:11:11 AM »
Yay Andy!

Not everyone has the time nor the luxury of slowly approaching these tasks - or the choice of simply putting them “back on the shelf” until later. And anytime someone here sends a project to Andy, it’s a very good thing indeed for this rogue OS 9 community.

As it’s also very good to keep Andy busy and “at it” going forward into the future as a highly-valued source for all of us rogues.

Even though best quality capacitors are available from possibly more reputable sources - $14.00 cap kits (from the Borg) for a Samsung monitor, hopefully might not be a bad place to start. It’s much easier to disassemble and access that Samsung monitor for trials and the basic beginning experience - as opposed to say… undertaking the necessary learning curve when ordering caps from Digi or Mouser… OR jumping right into a Quicksilvers’ PSU repairs.

If the Samsung monitor doesn’t work after the intial effort, or it possibly requires additional “surgery” after that first attempt… well, it’s easy enough to reopen the case, inspect and possibly correct what might be wrong and then try, try again. (Not as easy or nearly as much fun doing this with a PSU right out of the proverbial gate.) Ha-ha.

It’s the old “crawl before you walk” (learning along the way)… before one then possibly “hastens the pace“ and begins running.

The underlying (and un-stated) credo here is “help whenever you can”
…and not the tired old “I know something that you don’t know” routine.

Very good stuff from ssp3: (He's thankfully making such things a habit.) :)

CapXon = Manufacturer
820uF = capacitance, in this case 820 microfarads. You can use slightly higher value (1000uF) if that's what's available.
25v = maximum operating voltage, higher rating is OK, you can use 35V, 40V, 50V, 63V etc.
C716 = date or batch code, irrelevant.
GL = probably series name
105C = maximum operating temperature in degrees Celsius

And you are correct, I’ve other fish to fry (gives a quick, raised-eyebrow, side-eye glance towards a very stubborn 1973 Pignose amplifier). This QS PSU goes back on the shelf until later, but I shall return. Ya might also take an accounting (pics?) of your PSU interior to compare with what Andy actually changes in order to repair it - and post ‘em here in the thread. I’ll do the same when anything else develops here.

I’m still learning and hopefully, will continue to do so.

Now I gotta go explain to IIO that all caps contain a combination of crushed unicorn-horn dust with some added pixie dust… that can’t be accurately measured for function while the cap is still soldered to the PCB. Or I could simply ask him if he’s looked under his bed lately? http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,4503.msg32228.html#msg32228

Sometimes one simply must laugh. ;)
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Offline IIO

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #56 on: February 20, 2020, 02:12:06 PM »
how did you figure that i was only joking?
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Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #57 on: February 20, 2020, 07:31:37 PM »
Yay Andy!

Not everyone has the time nor the luxury of slowly approaching these tasks - or the choice of simply putting them “back on the shelf” until later. And anytime someone here sends a project to Andy, it’s a very good thing indeed for this rogue OS 9 community.

As it’s also very good to keep Andy busy and “at it” going forward into the future as a highly-valued source for all of us rogues.

It would seem so ... I'll let you know for certain ... once I get my PSU's back and they are working again.

Even though best quality capacitors are available from possibly more reputable sources - $14.00 cap kits (from the Borg) for a Samsung monitor, hopefully might not be a bad place to start. It’s much easier to disassemble and access that Samsung monitor for trials and the basic beginning experience - as opposed to say… undertaking the necessary learning curve when ordering caps from Digi or Mouser… OR jumping right into a Quicksilvers’ PSU repairs.

That's kind of how I saw it. Doing these types of repairs is a little more involved than just hack-soldering a couple of random wires together for the kid's toy ... you're working on something which has other components on it, in close proximity to what you're trying to replace.

It is outside of my field of previous experience ... and I'm pretty sure that there is "something to know" in order to be competent at doing it. I'd guess that I can probably master that competency ... but there's no way I assume that I possess it right now ... or even know the right questions to ask to get on the path towards it.

If the Samsung monitor doesn’t work after the intial effort, or it possibly requires additional “surgery” after that first attempt… well, it’s easy enough to reopen the case, inspect and possibly correct what might be wrong and then try, try again. (Not as easy or nearly as much fun doing this with a PSU right out of the proverbial gate.) Ha-ha.

Yup ... ;)

One thing I've noticed (goes back to what you said about my ECG iron - that I might need "a little more") is that the tip doesn't seem to be getting hot enough to melt the cap connections on the board. So I've been kinda laying it over on it's side, at a point slightly up from very end in contact with the joint I'm trying to decouple. That necessarily puts more of the tip in close proximity to other parts of the board ... which I'm not sure is a bad thing or not. Seems to me, that one should have enough heat to rapidly melt the joint ... before the rest of the PCB gets heated up. Has me a little nervous.

It’s the old “crawl before you walk” (learning along the way)… before one then possibly “hastens the pace“ and begins running.

Exactly.

The underlying (and un-stated) credo here is “help whenever you can” …and not the tired old “I know something that you don’t know” routine.

Seems like that should be a workable premise.

Very good stuff from ssp3: (He's thankfully making such things a habit.) :)

CapXon = Manufacturer
820uF = capacitance, in this case 820 microfarads. You can use slightly higher value (1000uF) if that's what's available.
25v = maximum operating voltage, higher rating is OK, you can use 35V, 40V, 50V, 63V etc.
C716 = date or batch code, irrelevant.
GL = probably series name
105C = maximum operating temperature in degrees Celsius

And you are correct, I’ve other fish to fry (gives a quick, raised-eyebrow, side-eye glance towards a very stubborn 1973 Pignose amplifier). This QS PSU goes back on the shelf until later, but I shall return. Ya might also take an accounting (pics?) of your PSU interior to compare with what Andy actually changes in order to repair it - and post ‘em here in the thread. I’ll do the same when anything else develops here.

Yeah ... the PSU's are already gone so ... I will post some pics after I get them back and a report if he provides any info as to what he did.

I’m still learning and hopefully, will continue to do so.

Every. Single. Day.

Now I gotta go explain to IIO that all caps contain a combination of crushed unicorn-horn dust with some added pixie dust… that can’t be accurately measured for function while the cap is still soldered to the PCB. Or I could simply ask him if he’s looked under his bed lately? http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,4503.msg32228.html#msg32228

Sometimes one simply must laugh. ;)

LOL ...  ;D

Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #58 on: February 25, 2020, 12:02:26 AM »
Word is the PSU's are finished and should ship out tomorrow ... later today.

Still working on getting the Power Mac 9600/350 Sonnet G4/450 sorted out ... pulled four 64MB sticks of TechWorks RAM which was built out many smaller (low-density ?) chips. What remains in the system are all 128MB DIMMs made with higher density chips. More overnight memory testing ... hoping for a Zero Error Count when I get down there in the morning.

System has been booting fine with a variety of cards in it, all slots filled:

IMS Twin Turbo video card
Wired4DVD MPEG Decoder Card
ProMax ATA66 IDE Adapter
Farallon 10/100 NIC
Adaptec 4000 4-port USB 2.0 card
StarTech 10/100/1000 NIC (doesn't work under OS 9 but is supposed to work under OS X)
CompUSA USB/FireWire card (2 ports USB/3 ports Firewire)
Some variety/brand of SiL3124 SATA Adapter (doesn't see any drives under OS 9)

Have not tried the SCSI cards again.

Still having issues burning to either a Sony Spressa CD-RW (SCSI) or a Pioneer DVR-106 (Firewire, via a ADS external case) ... gets into the burn and it just freezes the cursor. Same deal when doing file xfers on the local net using Fetch and a Farallon 10/100 NIC forced to 100Mb Full or Half Duplex. Using the built-in Ethernet works fine ... it's just slow as molasses on a cold January day. Should probably pull that newly "resurrected" Gigabit switch out of the chain and see if that makes any difference. Might not be quite as resurrected as I thought ...

Seems like anything that really CPU-intensive makes it choke. I have a second Sonnet "Rev. A" G4/450 CPU card that I could throw in there ... given these things are 20 years old at this point I should probably consider revisiting the thermal pads/paste on them.

I did manage to do a 3.7GB backup to DDS tape with Retro of the boot drive.

And then install the OS 9.2.1 and 9.2.2 updaters successfully using OS 9 Helper.

Interesting how some things seem to go without a hitch while others just seem to sort of implode ...  ::)
« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 12:38:01 AM by GorfTheChosen »

Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #59 on: February 26, 2020, 01:01:17 PM »
Making some progress ...

I am now able to make large file xfers (>500MB) over the LAN here at 100Mb Full Duplex speeds via FTP using Fetch. Tested it successfully a couple of times just to make sure it wasn't some sort of fluke.

The key to achieving this minor miracle was disabling the Sonnet Processor extension and using PowerLogix's Cache Control (v. 1.3) instead, and probably more specifically, checking the "Disable Speculative Access" checkbox.

I suspect it may solve the issues I've been having using Toast to burn to optical media. Gonna test that next.

Sadly, it appears that the original Iomega Zip 100 in the 9600 was destroyed last last when I stuck a disk in it that turned out to be bad ... although I suspect I'll be the only one shedding any tears ...  ::)

Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #60 on: February 26, 2020, 06:32:42 PM »
Disabling Speculative Access did not solve the problems with burning with Toast with the optical drives.

However I was able to solve it for Sony CD-RW by removing the two other devices off the SCSI chain, running a single cable to the drive with a terminator installed on the other port, eliminating two old APS short cables.

I suspect it maybe a cabling issue more than anything ... although one of the eliminated devices is an OEM Apple 1GB HDD (vintage 1993 or 1994) that hasn't been showing up at all the last couple of times I turned it on. The HDD spins up but doesn't show up as being on the chain using a variety of SCSI utilities.

The DVR in the ADS Firewire case still locks up the computer when Toast attempts to start burning a disc. Could be a cabling issue or possibly the Firewire card. This particular device has worked reliably before on a number of different machines here ... but all of them had built-in Firewire.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2020, 06:44:45 PM by GorfTheChosen »

Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #61 on: February 28, 2020, 09:38:37 AM »
The repaired PSU's have arrived back from Andy.

I opened the package and looked just enough to tell that they were packed very well, will probably get around to completely unpacking and installing them here in the next hour or so.

Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #62 on: February 28, 2020, 03:27:19 PM »
Joy !

The Power Mac G4 800 Dual Quicksilver is back up and running. (Big Thanks to Andy for his work on the PSU)

There was however a little excitement involved in getting it to happen: I had installed that SiL 3124 SATA card in the machine and it while the machine would power up/boot/give the start up chime, there was no video output (black screen)

As soon as I removed the SATA card it booted right up with video.

The G4 450 Dual is next ... right after I figure out how I want to partition the SSD and clone the present boot drive to it.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2020, 04:42:30 PM by GorfTheChosen »

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #63 on: February 29, 2020, 08:54:56 PM »
Power Mac G4 450 Dual was obviously way overdue for a deep cleaning ...  :o


Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #64 on: March 01, 2020, 08:38:35 AM »
And the Power Mac G4 450 Dual is up and running ...  ;D

It initially booted into Open Firmware ... not sure what's up with that but seemed to boot and reboot ok after that.

I did stick that SiL 3124 SATA card in it, along with an Acard or ProMax ATA 66 card ... neither have any drives attached ... and ASP showed that the unit had NO PCI cards installed ... WTF ?

Booted off the SSD ... not terribly impressed with those (OWC Mercury Electra 3G's) on either the Dual 450 or the Dual 800 so far (much more noticeable difference when I installed one in the Mac mini - made it fly) ... boot times seem kinda long (25 - 30 seconds to get to the desktop) ... though on the 450 Dual maybe that's because of additional storage cards installed with nothing attached to them.

Plan on getting the LinkSys Gigabit switch installed and the 3 Power Macs wired up to it today, and connected to the modem/router ... probably do some network testing. And get all the exterior last reinstalled on the G4 450 Dual after it's washed.

Reconfigured the duplicator tower yesterday (found another 60GB drive in there that I forgot I had  ;D) and installed a Firewire bridge board connected to a couple of mobile racks in it as well. Had to use the plastic mobile racks rather than the nicer ALU ones, as the latter would not fit in the tower's slots.

The Firewire bridge board I think came from ProMax and uses an Initio chipset ... not sure if it supports more than one drive ... but I configured two trays with drives set to master, and two set to slave ... so we'll see what happens.

Might try to get the BIOS in the PC flashed if I have time.

Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #65 on: March 03, 2020, 11:07:47 AM »
The caps for the Samsung LCD power board came in yesterday. Need to do a little more clean up on the work area though, before I attempt soldering on the replacements.

Last night I got around to finally installing a purty gold anodized ALU heatsink on the Northbridge chip of the PC and managed to get a good look at the cap situation on the mobo.

It ain't pretty ... it appears it's just full of those cheap green Teapo caps - I counted at least 22 of them (badcaps.net confirms 22) ... and a bunch of them are swollen up and leaking out of their tops.

After that I did a little sleuthing and found out via MSI's own support forum that it was a known issue with that product, with multiple folks mentioning that they RMA'ed their mobos to MSI for replacement or warranty work.

Of course ...  ::)

Offline FBz

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #66 on: March 03, 2020, 03:01:31 PM »
Mac Abuse!

Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #67 on: March 03, 2020, 08:53:39 PM »
« Last Edit: March 03, 2020, 10:40:05 PM by GorfTheChosen »

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #68 on: March 13, 2020, 10:44:50 PM »
Ok, the recap on the power board for the Samsung display is largely done ... except for C317. (More on that in a moment)

I used one of those yellow 25w soldering irons ... mainly because I found out that the tip on the ECG is apparently not replaceable (easily anyways)

And all the screw-in tips I have fit the yellow irons and there were a couple of very small, fine point tips.

The 25w irons were more than enough and it all went pretty smoothly. I actually even impressed myself with being able to hold the iron without my hands shaking (much  ;D)

It took a bit of practice but by the 8th pin I think had a decent looking solder joint.

 
« Last Edit: March 13, 2020, 10:58:18 PM by GorfTheChosen »

Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #69 on: March 13, 2020, 10:57:08 PM »
Here's the issue:

On C317, one of the pins was soldered into an exposed trace of solder on the board surface ... which had another exposed trace of solder right next to it.

I do not believe that the two traces were joined but it's possible that they were (Good case for: Take lots of pictures before you start dumbass !)

Either my hand slipped or I just got things a little too hot and the two traces co-mingled and may have formed a bridge between the two traces.

I'd prefer to clean that up and separate the two before putting power to it.

The thinking being that if they were connected originally the missing connection might not be as devastating as leaving them connected when they weren't connected originally and putting the juice to it.

The question is how to go about doing that.

Just use solder wick ?

Offline ssp3

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #70 on: March 14, 2020, 08:35:54 AM »
From what I can see from the limited area you've pictured, both of those "exposed" traces are just part of one larger trace. Don't worry about shorts between them.

Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #71 on: March 14, 2020, 11:06:16 AM »
From what I can see from the limited area you've pictured, both of those "exposed" traces are just part of one larger trace. Don't worry about shorts between them.

Ahh ... so basically the darker area indicates a larger trace ... but on a layer lower in the board, below the surface.

I got so wrapped up with what was going on, on the surface, that I completely missed that.

Interesting.

Thanks !

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #72 on: March 19, 2020, 02:39:52 AM »
Finished bagging all the little screws and other assorted parts to clear off the workbench and then finished up the last cap on the power supply board for the Samsung display. Must have been 75 - 100 bags worth ...  ::)

Hooked the Samsung up to the IMS TwinTurbo128 in the 9600 which has a Belkin video adapter on it and got nada as far as a desktop screen image was concerned, at whatever resolution or mode it was set for. The onscreen menu system did come up on the display however, so that was encouraging.

Moved it over and connected it to the G4 Dual 800 and the desktop image came up just fine, and the picture looked good ... no wonky anomalies.

However, the display went black just about the time I was going to shut it off and disconnect it.

I had touched the front of the display case in the lower righthand corner near the power button when that happened ... so I'm going to need to look into it further and see what the issue is if any ... possibility of a broken wire or bad power button perhaps.

At any rate I was encouraged that I was able to work on the power supply pcb and bring what had been an apparently dead display back to life.

Next up - after troubleshooting any remaining issues with the Samsung - will probably be to finish cleaning up the MacBook (A1181 2.4 Ghz Core2 Duo "Penryn") and putting it back together, replacing the CCFL for the display, installing a new SSD, maybe maxing out the RAM to 6GB.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2020, 02:53:40 AM by GorfTheChosen »

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #73 on: April 16, 2020, 01:15:01 PM »
Making some progress ... have focused on the G4 800 Dual ... in terms of getting getting two partitions for Mac OS 9.2.2 and Mac OS X 10.4.11 fully setup with all the software software I own/use installed. Once I get that done and get any extraneous crap cleared off (a folder with over 35GB of "Software Updates" for starters) I'll have a better idea how much disk space is really needed for each partition. Will probably image or clone those ... so that I can just use the images for multiple machines.

I am having one issue with the G4 800 Dual though ... I think it's really more of annoyance than anything.

This has been going on for a long, long time (it was happening in the early 2000's) ... way before the PSU's died.

First boot from "Powered Off" I end up getting a kernal panic within the first few minutes after hitting the desktop - doesn't seem related to anything I'm doing (IOW: I can't do any number of things and it still occurs):
Quote
Thu Apr 16 12:03:21 2020
panic(cpu 0 caller 0x002FBE4C): A driver releasing a(n) IONetworkData has corrupted the registry

Latest stack backtrace for cpu 0:
      Backtrace:
         0x000954F8 0x00095A10 0x00026898 0x002FBE4C 0x002FFEB8 0x002FFD08 0x002FFE98 0x002FFD08
         0x00303630 0x002EB370 0x0008B6E8 0x00029234 0x000233F8 0x000ABEAC 0x028BA340
Proceeding back via exception chain:
   Exception state (sv=0x381C1500)
      PC=0x9000AF48; MSR=0x0200F030; DAR=0x0030A174; DSISR=0x0A000000; LR=0x9000AE9C; R1=0xF0080470; XCP=0x00000030 (0xC00 - System call)

Kernel version:
Darwin Kernel Version 8.11.0: Wed Oct 10 18:26:00 PDT 2007; root:xnu-792.24.17~1/RELEASE_PPC

Can anyone shed any light on this ?

Don't really recall it happening with the G4 450 Dual ... but I can't say for sure it hasn't ... just pretty sure I haven't seen it since I had the PSU's rebuilt for both machines.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2020, 07:45:10 PM by GorfTheChosen »

Offline GorfTheChosen

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Re: Latest Casualty ...
« Reply #74 on: April 16, 2020, 01:33:55 PM »
This is the Firewire Bridge board I'm using in the duplicator tower to access old PATA drives which I have in mobile racks ... uses an Initio chipset (they make a version with two IDE channels/connectors as well, which is supposed to support RAID configurations:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/FWB-IDE01A-Support-Two-IDE-ATA-ATAPI-devices-Initio-Chipset/133256102717

Anyone have experience with these ?

It appears to support two drives - Master and Slave.

I never used it that way previously ... but recently I thought it would be interesting to see if it would be functional in that configuration.

However, both drives which attempted to use as Slaves (in the correct mobile rack on the proper connector, and jumpered to "Slave") both ended up getting corrupted ...  ???

Fortunately, I was trying to use them as backups ... so I had the data elsewhere and didn't lose anything.