serial cards for non serial Macs?

[GaryN]

honestly im really surprised that these companies didnt have anyone to criticize their naming nomenclature
like why choose names that are easily confused with each other? they coudl have called them usa-28 usa-29 usa-30

i feel like they purposely try to make things confusing to people unfamiliar with their products
to purposly make them buy the wrong thing so they have to buy it again

if thers any possible way someone could make a mistake with properly identifying a device - itll happen on ebay
thats for damn sure - where all idiots go to sell shit they dont understand

Naah… It only seems that way to you NOW. They made the USA-28 for a good while. It was Universal Serial Adapter Model 28
They later added an additional clock chip and suffixed the "X"
They were ALL manufactured that way with the new chip as USA-28X forever after that.
The more confusing thing was the additional "A…G" tacked onto the end. I think (and that's always bad) those last letters were revisions to firmware to ensure compatibility with other serial devices - that is: other than MIDI.
Remember, there was a lot of stuff that was connected over serial before USB.
They also made a similar unit with a D-sub serial connector for PC problems.

You description of the issues today with ebay is dead accurate. I would only add "where all assholes go to unload shit that doesn't work"…

[part12studios]

OK i got the $3 usb to serial adapter..  so far i tested a windows 95 era PC keyboard (ps/2) and it worked fine.  I have an optical ps/2 mouse that lit up but didn't work.  This was directly plugged into the Mac's 2nd usb port to insure best power supply.

I haven't tried OMS stuff yet and plan on doing it soon.  The thing arrived today. 

[Protools5LEGuy]

Be careful. USB-PS2 AFAIK are different than USB-Serial...

Also there is USB-RS232...

[part12studios]

ok cool i'll see how it goes..  tomorrow i'll try to hook up the MOTU MTP AV without usb and go straight serial..

now serial to midi devices use regular serial cables right?   when i network my two MTP AVs I have to use a crossover serial cable between them to make it so one is 1-8 and the other knows its 9-16. 

One of my two units is serial only while the other is usb so i'll start with the non usb one and just see if it shows as 1-8..   and i should be able to find the manual online..  think i might even have a paper copy of it downstairs.. 

Not sure how much configuring it will use..   

one thing that would be super helpful if anyone knows off hand.


If i were starting from scratch with OMS..   what software would i need..   is there a standalone OMS installer? 

bear in mind my mac currently has DP3.11 installed with FreeMIDI running the midi show..   it has some settings in it to factor in

Do I NEED freemidi for motu gear or can motu gear work with OMS straight up? 

is the configuring of the device done in "OMS"? or is it configured in some other environment (FreeMIDI for example)

Thanks in advance for so much great advise already...   

I ask these questions because last time I went into my OS9 mac and tried to get a MOTU 828 (Firewire) and my 2408 MK2 to work together ended up requiring me to do a complete reinstall of OS9 because somehow drivers got jacked up and i couldn't un-f*ck the system and 2408 failed to work at all..   after fresh reinstall all was right again..  so I'm trying to avoid accidentally jacking up my currently working MIDI setup if I can avoid any pitfalls..

Thanks,
Caleb

Sincerely,
Caleb

[GaryN]

now serial to midi devices use regular serial cables right?   when i network my two MTP AVs I have to use a crossover serial cable between them to make it so one is 1-8 and the other knows its 9-16. 

Some computer-related issues are exactly like cockroaches. Now matter how many times you stomp on them, they keep coming back over and over and over.

There are TWO (count'em, two) kinds of serial mini-DIN cables: 1. Straight-thru   2. Crossover
Straight-thru is exactly what it says: Pin 1 on one end is straight-thru to Pin 1 on the other. Pin 2 on one end is straight-thru to Pin 2 on the other, and so on… 3<>3, 4<>4, 5<<>5, 6<>6, 7<<>7, and 8<>8.
There are uses for this cable type but MIDI is NOT one of them.

Crossover is very different. A crossover cable is used to carry two-way balanced data traffic so pins on one end from the device or computer's transmitter are connected to the receiver pins on the other end… they cross-over.

MIDI requires two-way data traffic so it always uses a crossover cable.
A crossover cable is wired as shown in the attached pic (pic courtesy of Syntho from http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,674.msg2015.html#msg2015)

The best part is: The damn things are never marked to indicate which type they are. That leaves it up to you to check with an multimeter or ohmmeter – and if you're going to f**k around with obsolete computer equipment, there's NO excuse not to have one of those…

[macStuff]

where did you read that you had to use a crossover serial cable to network 2 mtps?
i do the same think with my 2 x Studio 128x interfaces; i dont recall ever reading anything about a crossover serial cable being mentioned

a crossover cable twists the TX + RX
if anything that would be incorporated into the "network" port of the mtp.. which is why theres a seperate unique port especially for that purpose to begin with

https://cdn-data.motu.com/manuals/midi/MOTU_USB_MIDI_Manual.pdf

the word crossover is not even mentioned in the manual for the MTP. no clue where u got that notion from. who the hell told you you needed a crossover cable? in my opinion it sounds like they are getting their  "wires crossed" pardon the pun lol

re: using an 828 + 2408 on the same system would not be advisable.. you choose one or the other.. not both.

and i personally wouldnt bother doing anythign with no $3 usb to serial adapter (whatever that is)
thers absolutely no point in what you are doing.. when u have a usb motu model already.. simply plug the usb motu into a usb port and a serial cable into the networking port and into the port of the other mtp (with a regular serial cable, not a crossover)

whether you use a USB to serial adapter, or the USB MTP AV, you're still having your MIDI Data traffic going thru a USB connection, the whole point/principal of using serial instead of USB is to avoid the MIDI data having to conform to USB packets.. (the way ALL USB works at a lower level) serial data is formed into an endless incoming stream (also the way MIDI was designed originally) that is continuous and not broken into segments/packets

for visual aid purposes think of this illustration:

USB:
* * * | * * * | * * *

SERIAL:
****************

so you see; using USB as any part of the equation is defeating the whole point if your goal is to try "Straight serial" you arent accomplishing that goal using a USA-28X or using anything with a USB port on it; this is the reason why i referred to Garyn's USA-28X as a 'bandaid solution' because while it has software to emulate the serial port to the os, and appears as a regular serial port to the os, it is introducing  USB to the MIDI Data stream, and no matter what you do, USB will always be a packeted protocol

if you want to go "Straight serial" you need a Mac with a native serial port, or a proper modem adapter for a G3/G4/G5, or a PCI Serial addon device, theres no other way around it

[macStuff]

AND... isn't the CO listing also not noted as a KEYSPAN USA-28X? (But just not in the actual picture!)

those photos look like they are of the actual item the person is selling, so the person most likely erroneously put the USA-28X in the title because they dont know the difference, and or dont care, and are just interested in getting the type of $$$ they see the USA-28x selling for, completely ignorant to what the item actually says. i would not touch that auction with a ten foot pole. When it comes to old tech on ebay tread carefully + check + recheck otherwise your going to end up wasting your time/money.

[part12studios]

GaryN:

yep got it about the crossover and non crossover.  i had quite an adventure to find proper crossovers including trying to make my own (unsuccessfully)..  but i found someone who does make them on ebay and bought a couple. 

So modems also require crossover as well?  I would take it printers for example would be ok for straight serial..  and a mouse.. devices that only send information one way.

I know i have one of the crossovers and may have just found the other crossover.. but regardless I have at least one to test out the MTP AV #1

----

macStuff

so the manual for the MTP AV says explicitly that it needed a special crossover cable.  the units came with one back in the day, but mine didn't have said cable with either one of them, but thankfully i found some.

your studio units may just have crossover cables, or maybe for some reason the studio (opcode?) has different requirements.  I don't remember reading that a crossover was needed for Mac to MTP, but at the time I was using USB so I didn't care to read that part, only how to network the two units to make them act as one. 

I only had time to skim through the linked manual, but didn't see anything serial related in that and it doesn't include the MTP, though it does make reference to the use of a network serial cable (crossover)

here is the MTP AV manual.. it's the usb version.. but it still has "how to connect via serial" in it because the usb version still has a serial port.. but it only has one so it would in a serial situation have to be the slave unit.. while my non USB MTP has two serial ports so it would become the master unit which is fortunate for me to not have to buy more stuff..

https://cdn-data.motu.com/manuals/midi/MIDI_Timepiece_AV_USB_User_Guide_Mac.pdf

crossover cable = network cable.  in my research back when i couldn't figure out why the normal serial cable didn't work..  I came across this.  i think it might even have been from MOTU support.  I've reached out to them a couple of times over the years and they were VERY cool to help me in spite of using very very old gear..   MOTU is a great company

Yes, in hindsight I agree mixing the two is bad, but it seemed like it could have been possible.  instead though opted to get a 2nd 2408 Mk2 and got them working.  so i have the 16 balanced 1/4" INs and OUTs..  I got the second unit for $40 at a local music-go-round. 

no the reason i'm going back to serial is to work with even OLDER software.. lol..  stuff that seems to not recognize my usb midi devices.  they were written for serial devices..   alchemy is one of them i believe.. and also my peavey dpm sp has a library editor but again these apps are very simplistic in their settings.  maybe i just don't have OMS installed, but the point of this effort is to get these older programs to be able to reach my midi hardware plugged up..   both to fully explore the SDS sample pushing/getting from the Akai S612 and my Peavey DPM sp..  very useful features. 

totally understood about the usb bottleneck.. the point of it was to get these devices talking..  with usb i've had no luck..  i'm not sure OMS talks to usb devices?  i have yet to see it work, but i've never seen how it SHOULD look so i'm kinda moving in the dark on this (except with your fine help!    

Yea I'm going to go with FsB's device.  I think it's stealth something or other.  I trust him completely that he knows what he's got. 

kinda rushed reply.. gotta get dressed for work!  heh

[macStuff]

i still think your wrong
if there is a crossover at all it in the schematic it would be wired into the actual network port itself

i was the one who painstakingly created this post:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=473.0
at no time during my research do i remember reading anything about a crosover cable from motu or opcode
what they refer to as a "network cable" is just a normal "straight thru" serial cable

one of is right and the other is wrong lol
would help if these cables clearly indicated what wiring they were... but the only way to test i guess is with a multimeter

if the need for a crossover cable was required, instead of a normal serial cable
it would be clearly indicated in all the sources of documentation u can find on the subject
https://motu.com/techsupport/technotes/document.2000-01-28.4413716217
its just not there man,

i think you must be confusing what type of cable u actually have (if you have actually got it to work before)

crossover serial cables are for networking two mac's via localtalk

http://www.applefool.com/se30
"required for direct computer to computer connections"

not for midi
and of course - easily confused - becasue as garyn pointed out, they looke xactly the same and are rarely marked to differentiate between, which is why i think your cable is in fact probably not a crossover cable despite the fact that you think it is.

and let me add that the whole point of disputing this is not for me to be right and look like a know it all but rather to save everyone who reads the thread from now till the end of time from erroenously going out and buying cables they dont need;

[GaryN]

This is starting to feel like a schoolyard brawl.

I'll say it YET again. If anyone fails to understand it, read it over and over until you get it.

1.   Crossover serial cables are used when TWO-WAY communication is required.
2.   MIDI ALWAYS ALWAYS requires TWO-WAY communication.
3.   Therefore, serial cables used in conjunction with, BETWEEN, over, under MIDI interfaces are ALWAYS crossover wired.

*  The cable between two MTPs MUST be crossover because the MTPs are in series relative to the computer. Any data to or from the second one MUST go thru the first one. The Tx and Rx lines are be crossed over to each other to keep traffic organized in each direction.

** Although there are uses for straight-thru mini-DIN serial cables, Apple did NOT EVER use them. ALL serial cables used with the modem or printer ports were required to be crossover-wired. This made perfect sense since every device connected to either of the two ports required two-way communication.
Modem? Two-way.
Printer? Two-way. (Yes, printers send data back to the host: Status = ready, standby etc. Data received, error and so forth.)
Network? D-uh…Two-way.
Mouse? Trick question. Mice never connected to the serial port. Before ADB, the keyboard and mouse went to the DB-9 port.

***  Because of that, and just because they're Apple and they have always gone to extreme lengths to make their stuff incompatible with the rest of the universe, they never specified the cables were any "different". They were the ONLY cable a Mac user should have and you were supposed to buy them from a Apple dealer where they were clearly marked "For the Mac". The Mac was virtually alone in having the mini-DIN serial port anyway. It was also unique in using the RS-422 standard instead of RS-232 as used by PCs.
What percentage of the rationale for using RS-422 because it was a "better" protocol and how much was to just further cement the incompatibility effort I'll leave up to you to decide.

[macStuff]

the mistake your making is that you are extending the rules for serial communication between seperate 68k Macintosh computers to the these MIDI devices
these MIDI devices have a special (different than the other ports) "networking" port..especially for connecting two devices, if theres any crossover happening in the circuit path at all (which im doubtful of but for arguments sake if it indeed existed) im of the strong opinion that this would occur in the wiring of the actual "NETWORK" port of the device itself... thus negating the need for a special cable.. and thus creating the difference between a normal port and the "network" port on the device..

i triple dare you to find any documentation of such a need  ie: a crossover cable in ANYTHING to do with MIDI
I REPEAT there is NO MENTION of any requirement of a special "Crossover" serial cable in any documentation by Opcode or MOTU

its funny because right now you are fulfilling your own words of "how mistakes happen on forums" lol when people just talk out of their ass lol
without verifying the facts 100% - trust me im very thorough fact checker, and have been for quite some time. and 9/10 i dont open my mouth unless im fairly confidant im right

try doing a google search for the following arguments: (motu | opcode) Crossover serial MIDI

the only hit i see is this thread of syntho talking about it...
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1176.0

theres another reference by. guess who? Part12studios on the Vintage synth forum from 2017:
https://forum.vintagesynth.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=28039

again this is not about me being a know it all but ensuring that whats being discussed is factually correct; for everyones sake;
PLEASE prove me wrong if im wrong; because im looking.. and im not seeing any proof of this; anywhere

now THINK LOGICALLY if it ONLY WORKED with a CROSSOVER SERIAL CABLE
dont you think they would have a statement existing SOMEWHERE in the documentation to alert users to this important fact?? even if the units did ship with a serial cable that was indeed a "Crossover" cable, it would have to be documented, because it would be a REQUIREMENT to use the device, should the included serial cable have been missing by any chance/ openbox etc

dont you think that in ALL THE HISTORY OF THE INTERNET of people sellign second hand midi interfaces, dont you think that ME OF ALL PEOPLE would have come across this info someplace?  .... in a text file or a PDF or on a WEBSITE?

[FdB]

Confused yet?



If I understand correctly, Caleb intends to connect
to his computer via serial connection. (Not USB nor MIDI.)
“AND add a third-party MIDI serial device to the NET port.”
Connection between these two MIDI devices will use a X-over?



Thoughts of *AppleTalk networks = headache.
Cable into the computer need be *X-Over?
Between the two MIDI devices… YES.
Caleb could connect Timepiece via USB?

The only MIDI cables used would be from a MIDI device
(keyboard, etc.) to the TIMEPIECE or to the 3rd party
MIDI serial device???

All serial cables here / Apple Mini DIN 8

[GaryN]

i triple dare you to find any documentation of such a need  ie: a crossover cable in ANYTHING to do with MIDI
I REPEAT there is NO MENTION of any requirement of a special "Crossover" serial cable in any documentation by Opcode or MOTU

its funny because right now you are fulfilling your own words of "how mistakes happen on forums" lol when people just talk out of their ass lol
without verifying the facts 100% - trust me im very thorough fact checker, and have been for quite some time. and 9/10 i dont open my mouth unless im fairly confidant im right

Jesus God dude, take another pill… quickly!

You want documentation? How about THIS: My first MIDI-running Mac was a friggin' PLUS! I bought it NEW……THEN!

There was NO OS9Lives! then. There was no OS9 YET!

I had working floppies of Opcode software and working BRAND NEW interfaces.

Guess what? THEY WORKED ONLY WITH CROSSOVER SERIAL CABLES……PERIOD.

Guess what else? THAT IS STILL THE CASE. I'm telling you from MY personal experience that if you try to connect an Opcode Studio ANYthing up with a straight-thru serial cable, IT WILL FAIL……repeat: FAIL!

I know this because I encountered lots of straight-thru cables over the years that were unmarked as to their wiring. Don't ask ME why some assholes thought / think it's okay to make them like that…I don't know.
I just explained at length why Apple felt NO need to memorialize the fact that they were doing one more thing to ensure that once you were IN the Apple-verse, you STAYED in the Appleverse.

MEANWHILE:
As illustrated by the post of the MOTU instructions thoughtfully provided by FdB above, Apple referred to these damn things as "AppleTalk" Cables.

THERE is your damn "requirement in documentation".
That IS the way it is.

Just for the record, I'm done sticking up for your idiocy. I've tried more than once recently to support your presence, forget about and Gandhi over your incredibly horrible history and I'm through. Eat shit and die.

[part12studios]

Sorry been really busy last couple of days and no time to respond, especially for  the kind of in depth stuff we're talking about now.  Also not meaning to drop more fuel on the fire, but..

TL;DR - I'm really sure GaryN has the right info and I'm sharing what I found and responding to all of the threads since the last. 

NOTE: I respect everyone here for your experience, insight and help.  I'd be lost without this forum and you all sharing your insight, but much to MacStuff's point, it's not about trying to win something..  we all just want the right info shared for others.

Also:

Got Disney+ and getting the boys (8 and 11) to watch star wars (4-8) before I agree to take them to see the final movie in theater so going to binge a bit this weekend as well.. heh.. hopeful while it's still in theater.. watched a new hope last night and they really liked it so can't wait to blow their mind with Empire.  Still my personal fav.  We're not even doing the prequels. 

ok on with our regularly scheduled reply:

GaryN
Exactly.  what you say makes a ton of sense..  absolutely .

totally agree they should have a marking system to keep the two types of serial cables straight..   just like MOTU using Firewire cables for their 2408 connections but its not Firewire itself..   imagine my surprised when i got my 2408 mk2 home to hook up and realized it required not a FW400 port but a PCI card to work! 



MacStuff
Well I may be, but the whole reason i got the crossover cable was because a regular cable didn't work..  and i have a regular serial cable.  it's the first thing i got because it was the easiest and cheapest thing out there.  it's what i bought first..  and when you put a non crossover cable in there, it makes it light up funny..  like a kind of digital "short"..  thankfully not damaging..  just pretty(?)

That link is right on in terms of the steps, but it really doesn't say anything about the cable particulars itself.  the MTP did include a serial cable so out of the box you just used what they provided, but neither of the MTPs i bought came with anything more than the power cord. 

Also like you totally not trying to "win" this in some sense like that, but honestly I went through a lot of leg work specifically for networking two MTPs and crossover was the way.. 

I found this thread which points to what I was saying / experienced first hand:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-and-electronic-music-production/685817-motu-mtp-av-network-cable-appletalk-serial-cable.html

Ah here is the thread of threads I started and of course on this fine forum:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,3246.msg20659.html#msg20659

the last post shared the ebay item i bought two of (gotta have a backup) and these were the ones that did work for sure..  https://www.ebay.com/p/1431842890?iid=231977425398

 i know the listing is ended but it's a crossover..  as indicated in the post.. unless the seller didn't know what they were talking about?  i mean i guess the doubt could go on forever.. heh..  but GaryN's point about two way talking is to me the most logical..  MIDI sends and receives..  like a network.. 

i might try it again since i have the serial calble out..  been a busy week.. no time to go to studio, but this weekend i will for sure!

GaryN (again)

Ah ok about the serial / mouse thing.. good catch..  i just remember the mac classic i used to have had a keyboard / mouse that used the serial (like) port but it's not in my possession anymore.


MacStuff (again!) lol

to garyn's point about "apple wants you to just use apple stuff" well MOTU kinda had the same thing..  they provided the serial cable you needed to network..  so they never really had to get technical because you just should use what they gave you.. or buy from them..   no incentive to educate users on what the specifications are. 

FsB

and yes my current setup is Mac > USB MTP 1 > serial MTP 2.  However thanks to MOTU being pretty awesome in my book, the USB MTP actually still has two serial ports as well.  one to computer and one to network 2nd unit..

and the pic you shared does reference printer / modem cabling so it seems that without being explicit, they are saying this is the kind of cable you need to work with the MTP as well.. 


GayN (third times a charm)

Apple-verse.. Amen brotha..  like it or not..  it was the way and still is (my god the adapters these days..)  which is why I've been a long time used apple user..  i could never roll with buying the latest /greatest proprietary stuff.. but it's fun to use when the stuff is bought for nickles on the dollar

doing this at work so gotta get back to it!

Sincerely,
Caleb

[DieHard]

I have to laugh reading this post...

1st.. fun to watch you guys fight it out and 2nd...

It reminds me of the endless frustration back in the day setting up networks, serial print servers, Faralon crap and the like.  To get more specific, I remember just looking to the "Double arrow" imprint on a minidin cable and thinking "oh... this should work, it's got the official bi-directional mac approval stamp", but unfortunately, many Chinese vendors at the time, selling much cheaper cables, just stuck that on the cable to mean "ooooo macca cable for round-eye" and this lead to many issues onsite where some cables worked and others did not, since obviously, just by looking at them, you did not know if they were straight thru or cross-over.  Some print servers actually used a straight thru (since I am guessing this simply extended the internal mac serial port) and then the print server did the rest.

To make matters even worse, we started using US robotics PC modem for things like "Fax servers" and we had to carry minidin to PC 9-pin serial cables (also a crapshoot finding quality cables).

Lastly, as a side note, early on pre-G3 when the GeoPort came out (9 pin Mini din with one extra hole), I thought it would be better technology; instead GeoPort modems ran much crappier and dropped the signal constantly, like a PC softmodem, they used CPU power instead of hardware handshaking and controller chips and thus were a step backwards

[part12studios]

round-eye.. lol

[IIO]

It reminds me of the endless frustration back in the day setting up networks

but look, it is easy: if it is a patch cable it is minidin - if it is a crossover cable, it is midiin.

you can tell from the characters beeing connected differently (on one side of the cable)

...

btw, i never had such problems 25 years ago. because back then we didnt order random shit from the internet - we went to our local pro audio store guru and he gave us automatically the right thing. making music, not endless fundamental discussion.

[part12studios]

I'm trying to find something concrete but it looks like the MOTU 324 PCI card has a serial port on it!   So I don't need any additional hardware..   however, now I'm not clear how to configure things.

OMS is just an opcode thing right?  OMS is how opcode DAW (what is opcodes midi/audio software called?) interacts with whatever oms compatible software there is? 

For third party programs that were written with serial in mind..

I installed the 324 drivers because it's working with my 2408s..  so i would assume (maybe wrongfully) that serial drivers were installed at the same time.   if so is there some place in the OS9 settings or something where i can access to know that the system sees it and therefor is able to be reached by other software that wasn't MOTU or Opcode..   

My first hope to do is to figure out how to get DP3 to see the serial connected MTP AV..  for now I'm just turning off the MIDI Express as it's USB and I've heard that the two don't play nice together so for simplicity i am not pure serial.. 

[IIO]

OMS is THE midi extension to MacOS (beside freemidi) and almost all professional music apps supported it.

if it wouldnt exist, apple would have had to make their own.

because this

https://macgui.com/downloads/?file_id=19947

was only good for games.

and OMS works with any hardware, no matter if it is connected with serial, parallel, usb or firewire - and including the motu brand (which supports freemidi in addition) - the only condition is that it comes with an OMS driver - and i dont know of a multi-port interface after 1992 which wouldnt do that.

[macStuff]

I'm trying to find something concrete but it looks like the MOTU 324 PCI card has a serial port on it!   

may look like a serial port (din-based) but it isnt a "real" serial port

f you have a MOTU Digital Timepiece, connect one of its
‘Control Track’ outputs here using a standard RS422 DIN-8
cable. This allows you to synchronize your 24i system to the
Digital Timepiece for resolving the 24i to external time code
(or other external clocks).

similar to how motu uses "FireWire"ports but those ports are not really "FireWire" ports
the "Serial port" on the pci-324 is for their own internal use, and while it uses the rs-422 format
physically, it does not connect to the Serial subsystem of the mac. Sorry pal. It's only used for
connecting a "MOTU Digital Timepiece" has nothin to do with MIDI or Serial devices.