Author Topic: serial cards for non serial Macs?  (Read 4588 times)

Offline part12studios

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serial cards for non serial Macs?
« on: January 13, 2020, 04:58:22 AM »
I have been noticing that a lot of midi software might not be able to support the MOTU usb devices I have (midi time piece av and midiexpress).  The older software out there seems to require serial based midi hardware.  I don't have any but i'm pretty sure i could hunt down something inexpensive to tinker with, but I need to find a serial pci card (assuming they exist) that would be compatible with OS9.  My googling didn't come up with anything concrete. 
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 05:47:34 AM by part12studios »

Offline GaryN

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2020, 02:08:56 PM »
What you're really talking about here is the need for a communications driver to interface between the DAW and the outside world. that's exactly what OMS and/or FreeMIDI do - or in the case of really old stuff, Apple MIDI Manager.

According to MOTU:

MOTU USB Interfaces and OMS

You can use you new Motu USB MIDI interface with OMS if you need to. After the latest version of OMS 2.3.8 is installed, you should install FreeMIDI 1.4 (or later). If you are on a G4, iBook, or DVD iMac you will need FreeMIDI 1.43. The FreeMIDI installer will place a MOTU OMS driver in the OMS folder, which can be found in the System folder. After restarting the computer, you can now run your OMS setup and detect you MOTU USB interface by hitting the search button when OMS prompts you to choose printer or modem port.


The bottom line is that there is a MOTU OMS driver extension and also an Opcode OMS USB extension to "bridge the gap" between the old serial port world and the later USB world. Some combination of the above stuff will almost always work.

A couple of notes:
* The "gold standard" of PCI serial port replacers is the Keyspan SX PRO which came in both two and four-port versions. They're scarce as hen's teeth.
* Acquiring such a device will cause you to need to switch to a serial-based MIDI interface like an Opcode Studio xx instead your existing MOTU interfaces.
* Although theoretically you can use both a serial card and interface plus a USB interface simultaneously, I've yet to meet anyone who does. I can only assume that's because of (A) unwanted interactions between them or (B) maybe I just don't get out enough…

and finally…
I can see that all of this appears to be driven by your apparent lust for the Akai 612. I submit that being involved with either old Akai or old Roland/Ederol stuff today is a shortcut to hair-pulling insanity as you try to drag them kicking and screaming into a future they were never intended to see.

I'm just sayin'… 8)

Offline d97

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2020, 04:37:57 PM »
I can't pretend to really know anything about this but I was fortunate enough to pick up a Griffen G4Port serial card off of my local Craigslist equivalent for $10.  I stuck it in a G4 450 machine it it seems to run quite happily with my Motu USB stuff in OS9.  I have a serial midi timepiece AV and a usb Midi Express XT.  (Well, technically it is a usb & serial interface but I am using it with USB).

I haven't done any extensive testing with the system and, to be honest, I don't do anything close to serious with music so there might be timing issues, etc.

What I'm wondering is if you could just chase down a Beige G3 or something earlier that has the necessary serial ports and is quite comfortable running OS9.

macStuff

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2020, 09:16:59 PM »
part12:
what mac is it that you have? if u want a solution proposed.. lay out the full details

congrats on the griffen g4port. i have one in my quicksilver and its def a solid fix
if u can find one

Offline GaryN

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2020, 10:31:23 PM »
I can't pretend to really know anything about this but I was fortunate enough to pick up a Griffen G4Port serial card off of my local Craigslist equivalent for $10.  I stuck it in a G4 450 machine it it seems to run quite happily with my Motu USB stuff in OS9.  I have a serial midi timepiece AV and a usb Midi Express XT.  (Well, technically it is a usb & serial interface but I am using it with USB).

I haven't done any extensive testing with the system and, to be honest, I don't do anything close to serious with music so there might be timing issues, etc.
…and now I HAVE met someone who runs serial and USB simultaneously. That's why I love this Forum!

The Griffin is very similar to the SX Pro. Also, just as scarce. This is where you enter the land of a zillion variables. depending on exactly which computer, exactly which interfaces, which DAW, which synth modules etc etc. Many, many different results can be obtained all the way from "purrs like a kitten" to "I smashed the entire f*&^king thing with a hammer". Traditionally, it's not been necessary to even think about running "weird" combinations of stuff like this, but as time goes on and stuff gets ever-older and harder to find in good condition, stranger and stranger configurations of gear just start to happen more and more.

End of the day, it's up to the individual to decide how to spend one's time on Earth - either cobbling together odd piles of gear that may or may not play well together or to pass the time typing this kind of bullshit…  8)

macStuff

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2020, 12:02:35 AM »
20 years later, still going thru all this bullshit because apple decided to remove a serial port from its design that it could have easily just left in place
it would have been nice if a few macs had both during transition from serial to usb

Offline part12studios

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2020, 06:53:15 AM »
Thanks for the help and insight!  I have a quicksilver and a sawtooth, but the sawtooth isn't the one i'm using for music, but neither have serial. 

I don't really blame mac for dropping serial and going all USB.  usb has proven to be a good standard for many years (almost as impressive as midi)

My MOTU MTP AVs both have serial.  one is usb (how i get it to work with the macs i have) and the 2nd one is connected via a special crossover serial cable which networks the two to be seen as one 16 midi in/out.  I could live without the MIDI Express

However it looks like finding a pci serial card is not easy or cost effective.  one on ebay for $80 but that's too much for me to justify at this time.  i kinda worry also that when i have the 12-13 midi devices i have going over serial worries me it might end up being a possible MIDI bottleneck..   if i knew the card would work and fix everything i'd probably go for it..  but i'll hunt around and maybe luck into something cheap / free sometime. 

now i have an idea of what to look for and that's a big help! 

Sincerely,
Caleb

macStuff

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2020, 08:13:31 AM »
its quite the opposite
midi over serial is better than usb because usb is a packeted protocol
wheras serial is fullly continuous;

you heard the other guy say he found a g4port for 10$
try to find a stealth port or a g4 port
there are many of them in existance

also if its a midi express those units dont support networking like the MTP units do unfortunately
according to the documentation

Offline part12studios

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2020, 08:51:25 AM »
yea if i go all serial, i understand the midi express would be out..  it definitely has no serial.  the MTP's both do for sure. 

So I found this one:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/GeeThree-STEALTH-SERIAL-PORT-for-APPLE-POWERMAC-G3-B-W-and-G4-w-PCI-GRAPHICS/114042724929?hash=item1a8d79e241:g:gekAAOSwBQ1eDAUR

so maybe i'll make an offer for something like this, but looking at it, i'm not sure if my Quicksilver board would be able to interface this device. 

then there is this on for a G4:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/GeeThree-STEALTH-Serial-Port-for-Apple-Power-Macintosh-G4-MINT-NOS/153791926621?hash=item23ceb6915d:g:md8AAOSwhe9eGNsz

Again a unique interface I don't recognize and wonder how it would fit in my Quicksilver (if at all)



then there is THIS one, which looks very PCI and a good price, but maybe it's still not something OS9 / Quicksilver would recognize? 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VGA-DVI-Serial-Video-Card-Apple-Macintosh-Computers/163983418027?hash=item262e2c62ab:g:1ucAAOSw4-td8FnO

what do you think? 



macStuff

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2020, 09:23:46 AM »
the first one is for a g3 b+w
the 2nd one will work in both a sawtooth and a quiksilver
the 3rd one is not a serial card its a graphics card with svideo someones a little stupid

Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2020, 09:24:57 AM »
The 3rd is a graphics cards with bad capacitors
Looking for MacOS 9.2.4

Offline part12studios

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2020, 10:23:48 AM »
I am glad you caught that, however that’s actually not necessarily a dealbreaker. I’ve had to change capacitors on old hardware before so I might reach out to the person maybe talk them down more given the fact that it’s as is.

Offline FdB

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2020, 10:31:45 AM »
Uh-oh. Seen the prices on these lately?
Thought I’d sent this one to “Bad Bob” last year.

And wait.... you need a video card? Huh?
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Offline GaryN

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2020, 01:29:04 PM »
20 years later, still going thru all this bullshit because apple decided to remove a serial port from its design that it could have easily just left in place
it would have been nice if a few macs had both during transition from serial to usb
Come on C, you know better than that. Take that kind of position and next comes "they should have never removed": SCSI, Direct Processor Slots, analog video, ADB etc. etc, etc.

The items we're discussing now - PCI serial cards, stealth port adapters etc. ARE the 3rd-party efforts that made up for that shortcoming.

The only thing that's NOT been mentioned so far is the Keyspan USA-28X USB-to-serial adapter.  8)

macStuff

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2020, 10:02:38 AM »
i still never got my hands on a keyspan PCI or a keyspan USB i came close to ordering a usb keyspan but it never happened... in my eyes its a bandaid solution it would be nice to get one for experience sake though; for testing + comparison purposes if i ever feel like wasting more of my planet earth time

Offline part12studios

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2020, 10:17:20 AM »
regarding usb to serial adapters..  wouldn't this kinda go back to the problem of usb / midi performance?  not to say that i've encountered any problems with midi over usb except when i have too many MIDI Clock signals being pushed, but (thanks to IIO) I was able to contain the flood of midi clock info from my Alesis Nitro brain module. 

@FdB yea the video card part isn't needed but it seemed like the price point made it worth putting up with it.  i could manage using that video card as well IF I had to stop using the other card due to any compatibility trouble..  I tried doing dual monitors before with problematic results but even if i could do it now i don't have room for a 2nd monitor. 

yea i'll keep looking around.  thanks for the model tips!  super helpful.  i just didn't want to get something that isn't compatible.  a lot of older items don't always offer explicit compatibility in ads and such.

macStuff

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2020, 10:20:02 AM »
dont bother with that graphic card; its not macos9 compatible even i dont think
it looked like it was a geforce 5200 or 6200 ; trust me its not worth a second look

Offline part12studios

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2020, 10:30:28 AM »
ok thanks for that!  yea warning heeded. 

what about the others?   the ones from the G3 and G4..  would either of those work and if so, what the heck do they plug into? 

macStuff

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2020, 11:09:12 AM »
lol you are a bit lost arent you
the g3 one (#1) is only for use in a B+W G3 tower; its incompatible with the g4 ones (the connector is different)

i already explained that #2 was the option u want its compatible with both your macs
it plugs into the modem port on the motherboard
https://www.ebay.com/itm/GeeThree-STEALTH-Serial-Port-for-Apple-Power-Macintosh-G4-MINT-NOS/153791926621?hash=item23ceb6915d:g:md8AAOSwhe9eGNsz

there was a guy from australia selling clones of the stealth port
which he renamed jamport
 http://alexhixon.com/projects/jamport/
not sure if u would be able to get in touch with him though i think he stopped responding to emails
he only charges 50$ australian dollars if u can get ahold of him

his website still apperas to be taking orders at 45$ aus dollars each

if u really feel you need a video upgrade, track down a radeon 8500 or a Geforce 4 4200/4400/4600 those are the only graphics adapters worth buying for a macos9 daw; its quite easy to find a radeon 8500 LE version that can be flashed to mac theres countless threads on this kinda stuff in the display section of the forum for you to read
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 11:23:43 AM by macStuff »

Offline part12studios

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2020, 11:40:25 AM »
omg that was amazing!   Thanks @macStuff...  that clone is $35 USD!   done, ordered, stoked :)

Still not sure how things will look when trying to route midi ports on my MIDI Time Pieces via Serial (anyone have screenshots?) as how you would select specific ports to send / receive stuff with serial based software?

I am excited because I found some very old Peavey SP editing mac software but like other programs I'd seen, it seemed like they only supported a simple serial interface..   

Also I've seen some local people selling serial interfaces that are non-MOTU.. someone in the next town is selling a serial MTP (non av) so as a backup I'm sure I could get him to sell it for $20 seeing i'm probably the only guy in a 100 mile radius actually looking for a serial based midi interface :)

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2020, 12:55:16 PM »
let me know how things go with the jamport;
might take awhile to get shipped to u from australia
but you cant beat that price and you cant beat the product either
if its an exact clone of the stealth port

Offline GaryN

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2020, 02:37:05 PM »
i still never got my hands on a keyspan PCI or a keyspan USB i came close to ordering a usb keyspan but it never happened... in my eyes its a bandaid solution it would be nice to get one for experience sake though; for testing + comparison purposes if i ever feel like wasting more of my planet earth time
I've used a Keyspan USB for years. It always worked flawlessly, operating invisibly as it "magically" restored a serial modem and printer port to my MDD.
It's not a "bandaid" solution by any means. It simply and reliably attaches a pair of RS-422 ports to the USB bus and interfaces with any Mac-compatible accessory or device that needs to connect via serial. MIDI, printers, scanners, cameras, network adapters, it's all the same to it.

I just recently snagged a Keyspan PCI 4-port and swapped it in not because i felt a need to but well, just because it was there and it seems that logically it makes for a more direct connection by not having the USB in between.
If I experience any changes, improvements or shortcomings in the near future with it, I'll be sure to post about them.

Offline GaryN

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2020, 03:40:57 PM »
regarding usb to serial adapters..  wouldn't this kinda go back to the problem of usb / midi performance?  not to say that i've encountered any problems with midi over usb except when i have too many MIDI Clock signals being pushed, but (thanks to IIO) I was able to contain the flood of midi clock info from my Alesis Nitro brain module.
A great feature of the Keyspan USB is that it adds TWO serial ports (just like the old days) not one. It is able to do that because USB 1.1 is fast enough to carry the traffic of two MIDI connections over serial. That was a big thing that attracted me to it originally.
I have a hybrid setup. I use SVP over 8 channels of ADA (M-Audio Delta 1010) PLUS as many as 8 tracks of tape (Fostex). This requires a constant stream of SMPTE converted MIDI Time Code (Opcode Studio 5) to sync the DAW and the tape. That can and will cause near-complete disruption of any and all other MIDI on the same port because it demands absolute priority over everything else. So I have always done the obvious: kept it on its own dedicated port.

This is your MIDI clock problem on steroids.

Bear this in mind as you attempt to dump the entire MIDI load on the Jamport. You will have the exact same limitations where clock data can clog up the stream and hiccup note data. Clock and timecode are the Achilles heel of the MIDI. The simple fact that it's a serial protocol means everything has to cooperate and literally stay in its own place in line - no pushing and shoving and especially cutting in line allowed. Timing data however, simply can't be pushed around. It must be in its proper place in time or it simply doesn't work.
This is exactly why internet audio and video-over-IP and similar use data buffering on each end to provide timing "cushions" so data can be delivered in proper time. This kind of buffering-data-to-allow-for-critical-timing-bits does not exist in the MIDI protocol. It's one of the (remarkably few) things unanticipated and left out of the MIDI 1.0 spec.

Post-post commentary
I remember going around and around with you on that Nitro can't-shut-the-clock-off stuff. I'll remind you again that it had nothing to do with the USB component of your setup. It would have the exact same effect over any single serial MIDI port. It's a reminder that our friends at Alesis, for all their cleverness and slick innovation, regularly make decisions to "keep it cheap" that come back to bite their users. Anyone who's been stung by the surface-mounted faders on the Studio 24 mixer OR the fade-to-black display on the D4 OR the "popamp" opamps in the 3630 limiters OR at least a dozen other nasty fails knows exactly what I'm talking about.

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2020, 10:15:48 PM »
i meant that its a bandaid solution in that its not a real serial port; its an emulated serial port; a solution in which data is still having to go thru usb; which is a packeted protocol; 

like i said i have no hands on experience but im glad that such a solution exists + has worked well enough to be deemed stable by you ;)

which version do u have? USA-28X?
so OMS sees both ports perfectly i guess;

i cant believe the price of the SXPRO on ebay; chinese sellers trying to get 900$ for a serial addon pci card;
because they are hoping for someone who is using it on a factory or something, industrial uses, to break down
the people on this planet make me sick

Offline part12studios

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2020, 06:21:42 AM »
Damn it, the guy refunded the money.. he doesn't sell them anymore..  what a shame.. 

so that usb to serial device..  that seems reasonably priced.  anyone know if that would require drivers or do you think this would be a pnp type of device.  i could see it being pnp..

i'm going to also make a bid on that G4 stealth card.. i know he'll refuse but i wonder how long that's been out there waiting for someone to pay that much. 

Offline part12studios

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2020, 06:26:11 AM »
question, i have an actual usb to serial (9 pin)..  is it possible that there might be an adapter i could find that would go from the 9 pin PC serial to Mac serial?

Offline FdB

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2020, 06:31:00 AM »
Email headed your way... ;)
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Offline part12studios

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2020, 07:45:30 AM »
ok so FOR SCIENCE! I will try one of those $3 usb ps/2 serial devices and see how well they work.   they might

Also I've heard from FsB that Sythio might know more about this subject as well so I'm going to PM him to see if he might have some insight to share. 

Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2020, 08:48:04 AM »
Be careful. USB-PS2 AFAIK are different than USB-Serial...

Also there is USB-RS232...
Looking for MacOS 9.2.4

Offline part12studios

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2020, 09:21:32 AM »
ok well it's going to get here around Jan 25th.. so we'll see where it works/fails..  it says OS9 compatible so I have to assume it would at

as for the USB-RS232, i saw some PS2 adapters to whatever you call "round serial" ports..  that go from 9pin trapezoid to round and round to trapezoid. 

I have a usb to RS232 already i could try and it's pretty old but not sure it's OS9 compatible.  I didn't buy it for a mac at the time.  I was using it with windows to talk to a LX200 PDA.. 

what do you think?  would adapters perhaps work with an RS232 to usb adapter and would they all be universal or vary greatly?


macStuff

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2020, 09:32:26 AM »
Damn it, the guy refunded the money.. he doesn't sell them anymore..  what a shame.. 


wtf -why doesnt he take his website down then? im sorry but thats pretty STUPID
sorry it didnt work out
its a shame he didnt have more commitment to his own project

macStuff

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2020, 09:34:10 AM »
dont waste your time
buy a usa-28x keyspan adapter
you can find them on ebay for the same price that u were going to pay for the jamport

Offline part12studios

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2020, 09:58:03 AM »
the only concern i have about usb/serial is if the OS will be nice enough to inform very old software that the serial can be reached through usb.  I don't know how sophisticated the OS is about making something like this seen as a native serial device.  Software written to use serial was made before USB was a thing.

Has anyone used one of these usb adapters for MIDI applications?  I don't need it for keyboard / mice / printing so know

macStuff

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2020, 11:36:23 AM »
dude; you are talking to the most experienced people on os9 on the net;
we gave u the green light to grab the usa-28x
garyn just got thru giving you a review of how it is more than compatible (scrollup he said he used it with a studio 5 interface which was opcodes flagship interface)
just buy it already and move onto the next thing that matters
life is too short

http://web.archive.org/web/20020612052547/http://keyspan.com:16080/products/usb/usa28x/
http://web.archive.org/web/20020618053931/http://keyspan.com:16080/products/usb/usa28x/docs/macos869/swp/aCompatibility.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20020623041742/http://keyspan.com:16080/products/usb/USA28x/docs/macos869/swp/aMIDI.html

« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 11:46:46 AM by macStuff »

Offline GaryN

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2020, 02:29:37 PM »
question, i have an actual usb to serial (9 pin)..  is it possible that there might be an adapter i could find that would go from the 9 pin PC serial to Mac serial?
Probably almost certainly not. There is a MIDI timing protocol that must be accounted for that is not normally possible with simple adapters.
i meant that its a bandaid solution in that its not a real serial port; its an emulated serial port; a solution in which data is still having to go thru usb; which is a packeted protocol; 

like i said i have no hands on experience but im glad that such a solution exists + has worked well enough to be deemed stable by you ;)

which version do u have? USA-28X?
so OMS sees both ports perfectly i guess;
OK I get your use of "bandaid". In that context it's 100% true. As I explained in my reasoning / non-reasoning to switch to the SX Pro, it was for that very reason: To "get out of" the USB subsystem entirely because it adds an unnecessary layer of complexity to the data stream.

But still, I lived with that for years without ill effect using the Keyspan USA-28X.
Actually, the biggest single pain-in-the-ass using the USB/serial has been tha damn USB connector. I HATE, no…  I F*&%#king HATE those things.
They are the WORST piece of shit excuse for a connector since…I can't even remember! Maybe the RCA phono plug…
I'm glad to have the SX Pro just to get rid of the USA "hanging" around in the cabling.

the only concern i have about usb/serial is if the OS will be nice enough to inform very old software that the serial can be reached through usb.  I don't know how sophisticated the OS is about making something like this seen as a native serial device.  Software written to use serial was made before USB was a thing.

Has anyone used one of these usb adapters for MIDI applications?  I don't need it for keyboard / mice / printing so know

I though I was very clear last time. This is a NON-issue. The USA-28 is invisible to both the computer and the device(es) it's connected to. It pretends to be the original printer and modem serial Mac ports so there is NO issue whatsoever with software etc.

Here's the single critical note regarding these: You must use the model USX-28 "X" Only the "X" has the MIDI timing mod (added clock chip) to pass MIDI data correctly. There are older, USA-28 units that will not work.

*There are also rev letters after the X: A thru G. These are irrelevant as far as MIDI goes - any of them will work. I have used a USA-28XA, a UAS-28XD and a USA-28XG. They all work exactly the same.

*There is also a Keyspan extension that must be installed that should be around here somewhere. It's still available on the Tripplite website under support/drivers but it requires some determination to find it.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 04:31:47 PM by GaryN »


Offline GaryN

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2020, 04:44:19 PM »
Search parameters: “USA-28X Keyspan USB Twin Serial Adapter”

≥2 via eBay. 1@ $30.00 (New Jersey) - the other one @ $28.71 (Colorado). (First one w/ install disc.)

www.ebay.com/i/114054146978?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=114054146978&targetid=859829361278&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9023887&poi=&campaignid=6470742440&mkgroupid=88656158866&rlsatarget=pla-859829361278&abcId=1141156&merchantid=6296724&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIxvvftJKJ5wIVyrzACh2bXQAPEAQYASABEgKgwPD_BwE

www.ebay.com/i/293298919057?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=293298919057&targetid=881485535474&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9023887&poi=&campaignid=2086088136&mkgroupid=88585792789&rlsatarget=pla-881485535474&abcId=1141016&merchantid=111899349&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIxvvftJKJ5wIVyrzACh2bXQAPEAQYCiABEgKA8fD_BwE

And then, there’s always this… http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,4198.msg28930.html#msg28930  ;)

AARRGH!!
SEE? Now there you go already Fury! This is exactly what I spent all that time typing about trying to prevent !

The first one in NJ with the disc and all is a USA-28XB. It's like new and being complete, the one to grab. It will handle MIDI.

The second one in CO is an older USX-28…… NO "X". It will NOT pass MIDI. DO NOT buy this!

As for http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,4198.msg28930.html#msg28930 ………
That's referring to a driver for the DC-30 video capture card. I have NO idea why you listed it.

Offline FdB

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AARRGH!!?
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2020, 05:31:16 PM »
My apologies, but if one actually reads that linked post they might possibly note this: “Remaining card free to members…”  which refers to the then, still-remaining Keyspan SXPRO 4 port card… that no one spoke up for (originally offered in the post just above the one that I linked). The miro Video DC 30 card went to another member.

*One might also note the strike-through and the “Found a new home” notation for the video card in the quoted section?

AND, sorry ‘bout the 2nd listed eBay serial adapter (the non-X version) as often, we get in a hurry when trying to be helpful & sometimes… we quite simply misread or speed-read through things? Caleb’s name is now on the 4-port Keyspan card here IF he wants it after trying out a USA-28X Keyspan USB Twin Serial Adapter”.

I figured that being in the greater Boston area, that Caleb would probably go for the N.J. adapter anyway. ;)
AND... isn't the CO listing also not noted as a KEYSPAN USA-28X? (But just not in the actual picture!)
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 07:35:51 PM by FdB »
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Offline GaryN

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Re: AARRGH!!?
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2020, 09:40:57 PM »
AND... isn't the CO listing also not noted as a KEYSPAN USA-28X? (But just not in the actual picture!)
You know, you're correct. My eye went immediately to the picture because I recognized it as an old non-X unit.
Odds are the pictured unit IS the one for sale and it's no good.
Typical fleabay stuff…

macStuff

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2020, 01:33:36 AM »
honestly im really surprised that these companies didnt have anyone to criticize their naming nomenclature
like why choose names that are easily confused with each other? they coudl have called them usa-28 usa-29 usa-30

i feel like they purposely try to make things confusing to people unfamiliar with their products
to purposly make them buy the wrong thing so they have to buy it again

if thers any possible way someone could make a mistake with properly identifying a device - itll happen on ebay
thats for damn sure - where all idiots go to sell shit they dont understand

Offline GaryN

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2020, 02:44:59 PM »
honestly im really surprised that these companies didnt have anyone to criticize their naming nomenclature
like why choose names that are easily confused with each other? they coudl have called them usa-28 usa-29 usa-30

i feel like they purposely try to make things confusing to people unfamiliar with their products
to purposly make them buy the wrong thing so they have to buy it again

if thers any possible way someone could make a mistake with properly identifying a device - itll happen on ebay
thats for damn sure - where all idiots go to sell shit they dont understand
Naah… It only seems that way to you NOW. They made the USA-28 for a good while. It was Universal Serial Adapter Model 28
They later added an additional clock chip and suffixed the "X"
They were ALL manufactured that way with the new chip as USA-28X forever after that.
The more confusing thing was the additional "A…G" tacked onto the end. I think (and that's always bad) those last letters were revisions to firmware to ensure compatibility with other serial devices - that is: other than MIDI.
Remember, there was a lot of stuff that was connected over serial before USB.
They also made a similar unit with a D-sub serial connector for PC problems.

You description of the issues today with ebay is dead accurate. I would only add "where all assholes go to unload shit that doesn't work"… :P

Offline part12studios

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #41 on: January 21, 2020, 05:35:34 PM »
OK i got the $3 usb to serial adapter..  so far i tested a windows 95 era PC keyboard (ps/2) and it worked fine.  I have an optical ps/2 mouse that lit up but didn't work.  This was directly plugged into the Mac's 2nd usb port to insure best power supply.

I haven't tried OMS stuff yet and plan on doing it soon.  The thing arrived today. 

Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #42 on: January 21, 2020, 06:24:22 PM »
Be careful. USB-PS2 AFAIK are different than USB-Serial...

Also there is USB-RS232...
Looking for MacOS 9.2.4

Offline part12studios

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #43 on: January 21, 2020, 09:26:20 PM »
ok cool i'll see how it goes..  tomorrow i'll try to hook up the MOTU MTP AV without usb and go straight serial..

now serial to midi devices use regular serial cables right?   when i network my two MTP AVs I have to use a crossover serial cable between them to make it so one is 1-8 and the other knows its 9-16. 

One of my two units is serial only while the other is usb so i'll start with the non usb one and just see if it shows as 1-8..   and i should be able to find the manual online..  think i might even have a paper copy of it downstairs.. 

Not sure how much configuring it will use..   

one thing that would be super helpful if anyone knows off hand.


If i were starting from scratch with OMS..   what software would i need..   is there a standalone OMS installer? 

bear in mind my mac currently has DP3.11 installed with FreeMIDI running the midi show..   it has some settings in it to factor in

Do I NEED freemidi for motu gear or can motu gear work with OMS straight up? 

is the configuring of the device done in "OMS"? or is it configured in some other environment (FreeMIDI for example)

Thanks in advance for so much great advise already...   

I ask these questions because last time I went into my OS9 mac and tried to get a MOTU 828 (Firewire) and my 2408 MK2 to work together ended up requiring me to do a complete reinstall of OS9 because somehow drivers got jacked up and i couldn't un-f*ck the system and 2408 failed to work at all..   after fresh reinstall all was right again..  so I'm trying to avoid accidentally jacking up my currently working MIDI setup if I can avoid any pitfalls..

Thanks,
Caleb

Sincerely,
Caleb
« Last Edit: January 21, 2020, 09:31:34 PM by FdB »

Offline GaryN

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #44 on: January 21, 2020, 10:26:21 PM »
now serial to midi devices use regular serial cables right?   when i network my two MTP AVs I have to use a crossover serial cable between them to make it so one is 1-8 and the other knows its 9-16. 
Some computer-related issues are exactly like cockroaches. Now matter how many times you stomp on them, they keep coming back over and over and over.

There are TWO (count'em, two) kinds of serial mini-DIN cables: 1. Straight-thru   2. Crossover
Straight-thru is exactly what it says: Pin 1 on one end is straight-thru to Pin 1 on the other. Pin 2 on one end is straight-thru to Pin 2 on the other, and so on… 3<>3, 4<>4, 5<<>5, 6<>6, 7<<>7, and 8<>8.
There are uses for this cable type but MIDI is NOT one of them.

Crossover is very different. A crossover cable is used to carry two-way balanced data traffic so pins on one end from the device or computer's transmitter are connected to the receiver pins on the other end… they cross-over.

MIDI requires two-way data traffic so it always uses a crossover cable.
A crossover cable is wired as shown in the attached pic (pic courtesy of Syntho from http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,674.msg2015.html#msg2015)

The best part is: The damn things are never marked to indicate which type they are. That leaves it up to you to check with an multimeter or ohmmeter – and if you're going to f**k around with obsolete computer equipment, there's NO excuse not to have one of those…

macStuff

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #45 on: January 22, 2020, 02:04:28 AM »
where did you read that you had to use a crossover serial cable to network 2 mtps?
i do the same think with my 2 x Studio 128x interfaces; i dont recall ever reading anything about a crossover serial cable being mentioned

a crossover cable twists the TX + RX
if anything that would be incorporated into the "network" port of the mtp.. which is why theres a seperate unique port especially for that purpose to begin with

https://cdn-data.motu.com/manuals/midi/MOTU_USB_MIDI_Manual.pdf

the word crossover is not even mentioned in the manual for the MTP. no clue where u got that notion from. who the hell told you you needed a crossover cable? in my opinion it sounds like they are getting their  "wires crossed" pardon the pun lol

re: using an 828 + 2408 on the same system would not be advisable.. you choose one or the other.. not both.

and i personally wouldnt bother doing anythign with no $3 usb to serial adapter (whatever that is)
thers absolutely no point in what you are doing.. when u have a usb motu model already.. simply plug the usb motu into a usb port and a serial cable into the networking port and into the port of the other mtp (with a regular serial cable, not a crossover)

whether you use a USB to serial adapter, or the USB MTP AV, you're still having your MIDI Data traffic going thru a USB connection, the whole point/principal of using serial instead of USB is to avoid the MIDI data having to conform to USB packets.. (the way ALL USB works at a lower level) serial data is formed into an endless incoming stream (also the way MIDI was designed originally) that is continuous and not broken into segments/packets

for visual aid purposes think of this illustration:

Quote
USB:
* * * | * * * | * * *

SERIAL:
****************

so you see; using USB as any part of the equation is defeating the whole point if your goal is to try "Straight serial" you arent accomplishing that goal using a USA-28X or using anything with a USB port on it; this is the reason why i referred to Garyn's USA-28X as a 'bandaid solution' because while it has software to emulate the serial port to the os, and appears as a regular serial port to the os, it is introducing  USB to the MIDI Data stream, and no matter what you do, USB will always be a packeted protocol

if you want to go "Straight serial" you need a Mac with a native serial port, or a proper modem adapter for a G3/G4/G5, or a PCI Serial addon device, theres no other way around it
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 02:21:54 AM by macStuff »

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Re: AARRGH!!?
« Reply #46 on: January 22, 2020, 02:25:06 AM »
AND... isn't the CO listing also not noted as a KEYSPAN USA-28X? (But just not in the actual picture!)

those photos look like they are of the actual item the person is selling, so the person most likely erroneously put the USA-28X in the title because they dont know the difference, and or dont care, and are just interested in getting the type of $$$ they see the USA-28x selling for, completely ignorant to what the item actually says. i would not touch that auction with a ten foot pole. When it comes to old tech on ebay tread carefully + check + recheck otherwise your going to end up wasting your time/money.

Offline part12studios

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #47 on: January 22, 2020, 05:15:21 AM »
GaryN:

yep got it about the crossover and non crossover.  i had quite an adventure to find proper crossovers including trying to make my own (unsuccessfully)..  but i found someone who does make them on ebay and bought a couple. 

So modems also require crossover as well?  I would take it printers for example would be ok for straight serial..  and a mouse.. devices that only send information one way.

I know i have one of the crossovers and may have just found the other crossover.. but regardless I have at least one to test out the MTP AV #1

----

macStuff

so the manual for the MTP AV says explicitly that it needed a special crossover cable.  the units came with one back in the day, but mine didn't have said cable with either one of them, but thankfully i found some.

your studio units may just have crossover cables, or maybe for some reason the studio (opcode?) has different requirements.  I don't remember reading that a crossover was needed for Mac to MTP, but at the time I was using USB so I didn't care to read that part, only how to network the two units to make them act as one. 

I only had time to skim through the linked manual, but didn't see anything serial related in that and it doesn't include the MTP, though it does make reference to the use of a network serial cable (crossover)

here is the MTP AV manual.. it's the usb version.. but it still has "how to connect via serial" in it because the usb version still has a serial port.. but it only has one so it would in a serial situation have to be the slave unit.. while my non USB MTP has two serial ports so it would become the master unit which is fortunate for me to not have to buy more stuff..

https://cdn-data.motu.com/manuals/midi/MIDI_Timepiece_AV_USB_User_Guide_Mac.pdf

crossover cable = network cable.  in my research back when i couldn't figure out why the normal serial cable didn't work..  I came across this.  i think it might even have been from MOTU support.  I've reached out to them a couple of times over the years and they were VERY cool to help me in spite of using very very old gear..   MOTU is a great company

Yes, in hindsight I agree mixing the two is bad, but it seemed like it could have been possible.  instead though opted to get a 2nd 2408 Mk2 and got them working.  so i have the 16 balanced 1/4" INs and OUTs..  I got the second unit for $40 at a local music-go-round. 

no the reason i'm going back to serial is to work with even OLDER software.. lol..  stuff that seems to not recognize my usb midi devices.  they were written for serial devices..   alchemy is one of them i believe.. and also my peavey dpm sp has a library editor but again these apps are very simplistic in their settings.  maybe i just don't have OMS installed, but the point of this effort is to get these older programs to be able to reach my midi hardware plugged up..   both to fully explore the SDS sample pushing/getting from the Akai S612 and my Peavey DPM sp..  very useful features. 

totally understood about the usb bottleneck.. the point of it was to get these devices talking..  with usb i've had no luck..  i'm not sure OMS talks to usb devices?  i have yet to see it work, but i've never seen how it SHOULD look so i'm kinda moving in the dark on this (except with your fine help! :)   

Yea I'm going to go with FsB's device.  I think it's stealth something or other.  I trust him completely that he knows what he's got.  :)

kinda rushed reply.. gotta get dressed for work!  heh


macStuff

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #48 on: January 22, 2020, 06:10:46 AM »
i still think your wrong
if there is a crossover at all it in the schematic it would be wired into the actual network port itself

i was the one who painstakingly created this post:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=473.0
at no time during my research do i remember reading anything about a crosover cable from motu or opcode
what they refer to as a "network cable" is just a normal "straight thru" serial cable

one of is right and the other is wrong lol
would help if these cables clearly indicated what wiring they were... but the only way to test i guess is with a multimeter

if the need for a crossover cable was required, instead of a normal serial cable
it would be clearly indicated in all the sources of documentation u can find on the subject
https://motu.com/techsupport/technotes/document.2000-01-28.4413716217
its just not there man,

i think you must be confusing what type of cable u actually have (if you have actually got it to work before)

crossover serial cables are for networking two mac's via localtalk
Quote
http://www.applefool.com/se30
"required for direct computer to computer connections"
not for midi
and of course - easily confused - becasue as garyn pointed out, they looke xactly the same and are rarely marked to differentiate between, which is why i think your cable is in fact probably not a crossover cable despite the fact that you think it is.

and let me add that the whole point of disputing this is not for me to be right and look like a know it all but rather to save everyone who reads the thread from now till the end of time from erroenously going out and buying cables they dont need;
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 08:55:05 AM by macStuff »

Offline GaryN

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #49 on: January 22, 2020, 02:59:46 PM »
This is starting to feel like a schoolyard brawl.

I'll say it YET again. If anyone fails to understand it, read it over and over until you get it.

1.   Crossover serial cables are used when TWO-WAY communication is required.
2.   MIDI ALWAYS ALWAYS requires TWO-WAY communication.
3.   Therefore, serial cables used in conjunction with, BETWEEN, over, under MIDI interfaces are ALWAYS crossover wired.

*  The cable between two MTPs MUST be crossover because the MTPs are in series relative to the computer. Any data to or from the second one MUST go thru the first one. The Tx and Rx lines are be crossed over to each other to keep traffic organized in each direction.

** Although there are uses for straight-thru mini-DIN serial cables, Apple did NOT EVER use them. ALL serial cables used with the modem or printer ports were required to be crossover-wired. This made perfect sense since every device connected to either of the two ports required two-way communication.
Modem? Two-way.
Printer? Two-way. (Yes, printers send data back to the host: Status = ready, standby etc. Data received, error and so forth.)
Network? D-uh…Two-way.
Mouse? Trick question. Mice never connected to the serial port. Before ADB, the keyboard and mouse went to the DB-9 port.

***  Because of that, and just because they're Apple and they have always gone to extreme lengths to make their stuff incompatible with the rest of the universe, they never specified the cables were any "different". They were the ONLY cable a Mac user should have and you were supposed to buy them from a Apple dealer where they were clearly marked "For the Mac". The Mac was virtually alone in having the mini-DIN serial port anyway. It was also unique in using the RS-422 standard instead of RS-232 as used by PCs.
What percentage of the rationale for using RS-422 because it was a "better" protocol and how much was to just further cement the incompatibility effort I'll leave up to you to decide.

macStuff

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #50 on: January 22, 2020, 04:03:37 PM »
the mistake your making is that you are extending the rules for serial communication between seperate 68k Macintosh computers to the these MIDI devices
these MIDI devices have a special (different than the other ports) "networking" port..especially for connecting two devices, if theres any crossover happening in the circuit path at all (which im doubtful of but for arguments sake if it indeed existed) im of the strong opinion that this would occur in the wiring of the actual "NETWORK" port of the device itself... thus negating the need for a special cable.. and thus creating the difference between a normal port and the "network" port on the device..

i triple dare you to find any documentation of such a need  ie: a crossover cable in ANYTHING to do with MIDI
I REPEAT there is NO MENTION of any requirement of a special "Crossover" serial cable in any documentation by Opcode or MOTU

its funny because right now you are fulfilling your own words of "how mistakes happen on forums" lol when people just talk out of their ass :D lol
without verifying the facts 100% - trust me im very thorough fact checker, and have been for quite some time. and 9/10 i dont open my mouth unless im fairly confidant im right

try doing a google search for the following arguments: (motu | opcode) Crossover serial MIDI

the only hit i see is this thread of syntho talking about it...
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1176.0

theres another reference by. guess who? Part12studios on the Vintage synth forum from 2017:
https://forum.vintagesynth.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=28039

again this is not about me being a know it all but ensuring that whats being discussed is factually correct; for everyones sake;
PLEASE prove me wrong if im wrong; because im looking.. and im not seeing any proof of this; anywhere

now THINK LOGICALLY if it ONLY WORKED with a CROSSOVER SERIAL CABLE
dont you think they would have a statement existing SOMEWHERE in the documentation to alert users to this important fact?? even if the units did ship with a serial cable that was indeed a "Crossover" cable, it would have to be documented, because it would be a REQUIREMENT to use the device, should the included serial cable have been missing by any chance/ openbox etc

dont you think that in ALL THE HISTORY OF THE INTERNET of people sellign second hand midi interfaces, dont you think that ME OF ALL PEOPLE would have come across this info someplace?  .... in a text file or a PDF or on a WEBSITE?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 05:07:36 PM by macStuff »

Offline FdB

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #51 on: January 22, 2020, 05:51:48 PM »
Confused yet?



If I understand correctly, Caleb intends to connect
to his computer via serial connection. (Not USB nor MIDI.)
“AND add a third-party MIDI serial device to the NET port.”
Connection between these two MIDI devices will use a X-over?



Thoughts of *AppleTalk networks = headache.
Cable into the computer need be *X-Over?
Between the two MIDI devices… YES.
Caleb could connect Timepiece via USB?

The only MIDI cables used would be from a MIDI device
(keyboard, etc.) to the TIMEPIECE or to the 3rd party
MIDI serial device???

All serial cables here / Apple Mini DIN 8
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Offline GaryN

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #52 on: January 22, 2020, 07:30:00 PM »
i triple dare you to find any documentation of such a need  ie: a crossover cable in ANYTHING to do with MIDI
I REPEAT there is NO MENTION of any requirement of a special "Crossover" serial cable in any documentation by Opcode or MOTU

its funny because right now you are fulfilling your own words of "how mistakes happen on forums" lol when people just talk out of their ass :D lol
without verifying the facts 100% - trust me im very thorough fact checker, and have been for quite some time. and 9/10 i dont open my mouth unless im fairly confidant im right
Jesus God dude, take another pill… quickly!

You want documentation? How about THIS: My first MIDI-running Mac was a friggin' PLUS! I bought it NEW……THEN!

There was NO OS9Lives! then. There was no OS9 YET!

I had working floppies of Opcode software and working BRAND NEW interfaces.

Guess what? THEY WORKED ONLY WITH CROSSOVER SERIAL CABLES……PERIOD.

Guess what else? THAT IS STILL THE CASE. I'm telling you from MY personal experience that if you try to connect an Opcode Studio ANYthing up with a straight-thru serial cable, IT WILL FAIL……repeat: FAIL!

I know this because I encountered lots of straight-thru cables over the years that were unmarked as to their wiring. Don't ask ME why some assholes thought / think it's okay to make them like that…I don't know.
I just explained at length why Apple felt NO need to memorialize the fact that they were doing one more thing to ensure that once you were IN the Apple-verse, you STAYED in the Appleverse.

MEANWHILE:
As illustrated by the post of the MOTU instructions thoughtfully provided by FdB above, Apple referred to these damn things as "AppleTalk" Cables.

THERE is your damn "requirement in documentation".
That IS the way it is.

Just for the record, I'm done sticking up for your idiocy. I've tried more than once recently to support your presence, forget about and Gandhi over your incredibly horrible history and I'm through. Eat shit and die.

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #53 on: January 23, 2020, 08:17:39 AM »
Sorry been really busy last couple of days and no time to respond, especially for  the kind of in depth stuff we're talking about now.  Also not meaning to drop more fuel on the fire, but..

TL;DR - I'm really sure GaryN has the right info and I'm sharing what I found and responding to all of the threads since the last. 

NOTE: I respect everyone here for your experience, insight and help.  I'd be lost without this forum and you all sharing your insight, but much to MacStuff's point, it's not about trying to win something..  we all just want the right info shared for others.

Also:

Got Disney+ and getting the boys (8 and 11) to watch star wars (4-8) before I agree to take them to see the final movie in theater so going to binge a bit this weekend as well.. heh.. hopeful while it's still in theater.. watched a new hope last night and they really liked it so can't wait to blow their mind with Empire.  Still my personal fav.  We're not even doing the prequels. 

ok on with our regularly scheduled reply:

GaryN
Exactly.  what you say makes a ton of sense..  absolutely .

totally agree they should have a marking system to keep the two types of serial cables straight..   just like MOTU using Firewire cables for their 2408 connections but its not Firewire itself..   imagine my surprised when i got my 2408 mk2 home to hook up and realized it required not a FW400 port but a PCI card to work! 



MacStuff
Well I may be, but the whole reason i got the crossover cable was because a regular cable didn't work..  and i have a regular serial cable.  it's the first thing i got because it was the easiest and cheapest thing out there.  it's what i bought first..  and when you put a non crossover cable in there, it makes it light up funny..  like a kind of digital "short"..  thankfully not damaging..  just pretty(?)

That link is right on in terms of the steps, but it really doesn't say anything about the cable particulars itself.  the MTP did include a serial cable so out of the box you just used what they provided, but neither of the MTPs i bought came with anything more than the power cord. 

Also like you totally not trying to "win" this in some sense like that, but honestly I went through a lot of leg work specifically for networking two MTPs and crossover was the way.. 

I found this thread which points to what I was saying / experienced first hand:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-and-electronic-music-production/685817-motu-mtp-av-network-cable-appletalk-serial-cable.html

Ah here is the thread of threads I started and of course on this fine forum:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,3246.msg20659.html#msg20659

the last post shared the ebay item i bought two of (gotta have a backup) and these were the ones that did work for sure..  https://www.ebay.com/p/1431842890?iid=231977425398

 i know the listing is ended but it's a crossover..  as indicated in the post.. unless the seller didn't know what they were talking about?  i mean i guess the doubt could go on forever.. heh..  but GaryN's point about two way talking is to me the most logical..  MIDI sends and receives..  like a network.. 

i might try it again since i have the serial calble out..  been a busy week.. no time to go to studio, but this weekend i will for sure!

GaryN (again) :)

Ah ok about the serial / mouse thing.. good catch..  i just remember the mac classic i used to have had a keyboard / mouse that used the serial (like) port but it's not in my possession anymore.


MacStuff (again!) lol

to garyn's point about "apple wants you to just use apple stuff" well MOTU kinda had the same thing..  they provided the serial cable you needed to network..  so they never really had to get technical because you just should use what they gave you.. or buy from them..   no incentive to educate users on what the specifications are. 

FsB

and yes my current setup is Mac > USB MTP 1 > serial MTP 2.  However thanks to MOTU being pretty awesome in my book, the USB MTP actually still has two serial ports as well.  one to computer and one to network 2nd unit..

and the pic you shared does reference printer / modem cabling so it seems that without being explicit, they are saying this is the kind of cable you need to work with the MTP as well.. 


GayN (third times a charm)

Apple-verse.. Amen brotha..  like it or not..  it was the way and still is (my god the adapters these days..)  which is why I've been a long time used apple user..  i could never roll with buying the latest /greatest proprietary stuff.. but it's fun to use when the stuff is bought for nickles on the dollar :)

doing this at work so gotta get back to it!

Sincerely,
Caleb

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #54 on: January 23, 2020, 08:53:53 AM »
I have to laugh reading this post...

1st.. fun to watch you guys fight it out and 2nd...

It reminds me of the endless frustration back in the day setting up networks, serial print servers, Faralon crap and the like.  To get more specific, I remember just looking to the "Double arrow" imprint on a minidin cable and thinking "oh... this should work, it's got the official bi-directional mac approval stamp", but unfortunately, many Chinese vendors at the time, selling much cheaper cables, just stuck that on the cable to mean "ooooo macca cable for round-eye" and this lead to many issues onsite where some cables worked and others did not, since obviously, just by looking at them, you did not know if they were straight thru or cross-over.  Some print servers actually used a straight thru (since I am guessing this simply extended the internal mac serial port) and then the print server did the rest.

To make matters even worse, we started using US robotics PC modem for things like "Fax servers" and we had to carry minidin to PC 9-pin serial cables (also a crapshoot finding quality cables).

Lastly, as a side note, early on pre-G3 when the GeoPort came out (9 pin Mini din with one extra hole), I thought it would be better technology; instead GeoPort modems ran much crappier and dropped the signal constantly, like a PC softmodem, they used CPU power instead of hardware handshaking and controller chips and thus were a step backwards

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #55 on: January 23, 2020, 08:56:58 AM »
round-eye.. lol :)

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #56 on: January 23, 2020, 07:11:01 PM »
It reminds me of the endless frustration back in the day setting up networks

but look, it is easy: if it is a patch cable it is minidin - if it is a crossover cable, it is midiin.

you can tell from the characters beeing connected differently (on one side of the cable)

...

btw, i never had such problems 25 years ago. because back then we didnt order random shit from the internet - we went to our local pro audio store guru and he gave us automatically the right thing. making music, not endless fundamental discussion.
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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #57 on: January 25, 2020, 09:24:55 AM »
I'm trying to find something concrete but it looks like the MOTU 324 PCI card has a serial port on it!   So I don't need any additional hardware..   however, now I'm not clear how to configure things.

OMS is just an opcode thing right?  OMS is how opcode DAW (what is opcodes midi/audio software called?) interacts with whatever oms compatible software there is? 

For third party programs that were written with serial in mind..

I installed the 324 drivers because it's working with my 2408s..  so i would assume (maybe wrongfully) that serial drivers were installed at the same time.   if so is there some place in the OS9 settings or something where i can access to know that the system sees it and therefor is able to be reached by other software that wasn't MOTU or Opcode..   

My first hope to do is to figure out how to get DP3 to see the serial connected MTP AV..  for now I'm just turning off the MIDI Express as it's USB and I've heard that the two don't play nice together so for simplicity i am not pure serial.. 

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #58 on: January 25, 2020, 09:30:00 AM »
OMS is THE midi extension to MacOS (beside freemidi) and almost all professional music apps supported it.

if it wouldnt exist, apple would have had to make their own.

because this

https://macgui.com/downloads/?file_id=19947

was only good for games. :)

and OMS works with any hardware, no matter if it is connected with serial, parallel, usb or firewire - and including the motu brand (which supports freemidi in addition) - the only condition is that it comes with an OMS driver - and i dont know of a multi-port interface after 1992 which wouldnt do that.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 09:45:27 AM by IIO »
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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #59 on: January 25, 2020, 10:50:10 AM »
I'm trying to find something concrete but it looks like the MOTU 324 PCI card has a serial port on it!   

may look like a serial port (din-based) but it isnt a "real" serial port

Quote
f you have a MOTU Digital Timepiece, connect one of its
‘Control Track’ outputs here using a standard RS422 DIN-8
cable. This allows you to synchronize your 24i system to the
Digital Timepiece for resolving the 24i to external time code
(or other external clocks).

similar to how motu uses "FireWire"ports but those ports are not really "FireWire" ports
the "Serial port" on the pci-324 is for their own internal use, and while it uses the rs-422 format
physically, it does not connect to the Serial subsystem of the mac. Sorry pal. It's only used for
connecting a "MOTU Digital Timepiece" has nothin to do with MIDI or Serial devices.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 11:02:26 AM by macStuff »

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #60 on: January 25, 2020, 11:31:54 AM »
dad gum it... yep..  that's a bummer..   ok so i think i'm having some luck with OMS, but yea until i can get a serial card for the G4 I'm SOL..   Thanks for finding that little nugget of knowledge!   

I setup OMS and i added a couple of devices..  but yea without a physical serial device i guess Digital Performer just sees 1-1 through 1-16 generic MIDI ports..  it's not talking to any hardware..  but i feel encouraged that when I get the serial card I may see something to interact with. 

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #61 on: January 25, 2020, 12:27:42 PM »
put in an offer for that stealth port.. hoping they accept and it comes my way soon..  very interested to see how it OMS works with DP3 and other software.  I know I could get the usb serial for less than $30, but it feels dirty to use usb not only for the data delivery stuff, but also because it feels detached from the system coming in as USB vs the system being directly connected to it. 

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #62 on: January 25, 2020, 12:59:17 PM »
this is not what you want to hear and doesnt solve the original issue, but you could sell your interface for 50 bucks and get an usb interface for 100.

there are much better things to do with a free PCI slot than adding a 3000 years old connection type to a G4.
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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #63 on: January 25, 2020, 02:20:42 PM »
yea the thing is that I have a pretty sweet setup already..  so while yes a usb interface (i have a FW400 Safire 400 with 2 in / 8 out / midi, thought I'm not sure it's OS9 compatible, haven't looked) would work, i'm happy with what i have and would like to take it all as far as it can go. 

and even if I go pure serial and have to give up the MIDI Express, I can get by with 16 in/out..  at one point my studio actually needed 24 outs (well i could have done THRU but wanted to have each synth have a dedicated out so any synth could be on/off without relying on another to be on to work) but i scaled back a bunch..   

so yea for $50 to get access to older software that really was writen to serial and not meant to interact with newer standards that didn't exist when the software was written (USB) I feel like it's a decent investment..  plus it opens me up to try out other hardware / software that up till now i've been unable to access.

Thanks!
Caleb




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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #65 on: January 25, 2020, 11:36:16 PM »
yes, one interfaces ports would appear there beside QT instruments and IAC bus.
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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #66 on: January 27, 2020, 02:04:20 PM »
Ok I bought the ebay G4 stealth port.. ended up coming to $57 or so with taxes..  so it's on its way.  once i get it I'll install and report back. 

Are there drivers involved with the stealth port or does it "just work" on an OS level?


I'm also (side note) having fun with the M100 J6000 digitizer jobby.  I found the OS9 software and had the OS9 S/N for the card so I don't have to mess with dual boot (though i will do it since i have Tiger DVDs thanks to FsB).. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kip82m19t08cbi1/83543670_10158195192028083_2127014495292227584_o.jpg?dl=0

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #67 on: January 28, 2020, 06:27:18 AM »
Are there drivers involved with the stealth port or does it "just work" on an OS level?

shouldnt. midimanager or OMS both will be able to use the port as soon a supported device is present.
(or does it use the modem driver which is already part of the OS install? i dont know. you will hav ethat anyway.)
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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #68 on: January 30, 2020, 08:05:06 AM »
I'm still a little hazy though on how the stealth card is installed.  it's not a PCI or PCMCIA product.  it has two screws and some kind of interface to plug onto:

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/zcwAAOSwXqpeGNs1/s-l1600.jpg

what is this port and what else would it be used for? 

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #69 on: January 30, 2020, 08:07:40 AM »
you replace the built-in modem with it, which is somewhere on the mainboard.

as some G4s dont have a modem preinstalled, you have to find where the right place is.

same with the connector: open that metal modem port box and replace what is inside.
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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #70 on: January 30, 2020, 08:10:44 AM »
ah ok that makes sense.  yes i believe my quicksilver has a modem built in so that's good to know. 

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #71 on: January 31, 2020, 10:34:19 PM »
Well unfortunately it turns out this steal port device isn't compatible with my Quicksilver G4..  the stealth card is close.  the screws are the same, but there is a piece that comes out that is what the ribbon extends from and this runs into the motherboard main PSU connections..  very unfortunate. 

Has anyone installed a stealth port on their Quicksilver?  I would love to be wrong in this, but i simply don't see how i could make it work...  going to initiate a refund tomorrow.  it's a shame too because it seems like there is so much unused space inside the dimensions of the modem that they could have kept the stealth indentical to the shape of the modem, unless the older G4 macs had a modem shaped like this?


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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #72 on: February 01, 2020, 07:35:15 AM »

System requirements

Open modem slot (no internal modem) - all models

Stealth Serial Port for G5
– Power Macintosh G5
– Dual 2.0 GHz., 2.3 GHz., 2.5 GHz, 2.7 GHz.
– Single 1.8 GHz (2005)
– All G5's except first generation (2003) and dual core (late 2005-2006)

Stealth Serial Port for G4 - Universal model - Sorry sold out!
– Power Macintosh G4 "Mirror Drive Door" (Dual 867MHz, Dual 1 GHz, Dual 1.25 GHz)
Note:Serial connector mounts on a bracket that replaces a PCI slot cover on the "Mirror Door" systems.
– Power Macintosh G4 "QuickSilver" (733, 800, 867, Dual 800 MHz, Dual 1 GHz)
– Power Macintosh G4-2001, 4-PCI Slots (466, 533,667,733 MHz)
– Power Macintosh G4 Dual Processor (450, 500 MHz)
– Power Macintosh G4 AGP graphics (350, 400, 450 or 500 MHz.)

Stealth Serial Port for G3 - Sorry sold out!
– Power Macintosh Blue & White G3
– Power Macintosh G4 with PCI graphics

Stealth Serilal Port for iMac - Sorry sold out!
– iMac rev A-D (233-333 Mhz.)



i´ve no idea why the 933 is missing from the list.

however, the install instructions mention "2001" and "2002"


http://www.geethree.com/stealth/install/g4installd.html


and the photos only distinguish between "quicksilver" and "MDD" (but which doesnt mean  there couldnt be exceptions which are not supportet)


http://www.geethree.com/stealth/install/g4viewa.html

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #73 on: February 01, 2020, 08:55:47 AM »
yea i'm just returning it..  just somehow got missed..  or maybe the actual port i have was made earlier and later models supported later macs and the documentation reflects the latest versions they sold.   

mine is a 867mhz Quicksilver.  mine has an internal modem installed.  i removed that card and the metal box / modem port to make room for the serial port..  but yea just off by maybe 5-10mm.. unfortunately there is no give anywhere.. it has to fit right or won't work.. nothing i could do except go in and maybe rewire the PSU/Motherboard but no way i'd attempt anything like that. 

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Re: serial cards for non serial Macs?
« Reply #74 on: February 01, 2020, 10:50:49 AM »
u sure it is an original? even if it some hong kong fake product i would expect that it fits into the designated space and has the right connector.
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