serial cards for non serial Macs?

[part12studios]

I have been noticing that a lot of midi software might not be able to support the MOTU usb devices I have (midi time piece av and midiexpress).  The older software out there seems to require serial based midi hardware.  I don't have any but i'm pretty sure i could hunt down something inexpensive to tinker with, but I need to find a serial pci card (assuming they exist) that would be compatible with OS9.  My googling didn't come up with anything concrete. 

[GaryN]

What you're really talking about here is the need for a communications driver to interface between the DAW and the outside world. that's exactly what OMS and/or FreeMIDI do - or in the case of really old stuff, Apple MIDI Manager.

According to MOTU:

MOTU USB Interfaces and OMS

You can use you new Motu USB MIDI interface with OMS if you need to. After the latest version of OMS 2.3.8 is installed, you should install FreeMIDI 1.4 (or later). If you are on a G4, iBook, or DVD iMac you will need FreeMIDI 1.43. The FreeMIDI installer will place a MOTU OMS driver in the OMS folder, which can be found in the System folder. After restarting the computer, you can now run your OMS setup and detect you MOTU USB interface by hitting the search button when OMS prompts you to choose printer or modem port.

The bottom line is that there is a MOTU OMS driver extension and also an Opcode OMS USB extension to "bridge the gap" between the old serial port world and the later USB world. Some combination of the above stuff will almost always work.

A couple of notes:
* The "gold standard" of PCI serial port replacers is the Keyspan SX PRO which came in both two and four-port versions. They're scarce as hen's teeth.
* Acquiring such a device will cause you to need to switch to a serial-based MIDI interface like an Opcode Studio xx instead your existing MOTU interfaces.
* Although theoretically you can use both a serial card and interface plus a USB interface simultaneously, I've yet to meet anyone who does. I can only assume that's because of (A) unwanted interactions between them or (B) maybe I just don't get out enough…

and finally…
I can see that all of this appears to be driven by your apparent lust for the Akai 612. I submit that being involved with either old Akai or old Roland/Ederol stuff today is a shortcut to hair-pulling insanity as you try to drag them kicking and screaming into a future they were never intended to see.

I'm just sayin'…

[d97]

I can't pretend to really know anything about this but I was fortunate enough to pick up a Griffen G4Port serial card off of my local Craigslist equivalent for $10.  I stuck it in a G4 450 machine it it seems to run quite happily with my Motu USB stuff in OS9.  I have a serial midi timepiece AV and a usb Midi Express XT.  (Well, technically it is a usb & serial interface but I am using it with USB).

I haven't done any extensive testing with the system and, to be honest, I don't do anything close to serious with music so there might be timing issues, etc.

What I'm wondering is if you could just chase down a Beige G3 or something earlier that has the necessary serial ports and is quite comfortable running OS9.

[macStuff]

part12:
what mac is it that you have? if u want a solution proposed.. lay out the full details

congrats on the griffen g4port. i have one in my quicksilver and its def a solid fix
if u can find one

[GaryN]

I can't pretend to really know anything about this but I was fortunate enough to pick up a Griffen G4Port serial card off of my local Craigslist equivalent for $10.  I stuck it in a G4 450 machine it it seems to run quite happily with my Motu USB stuff in OS9.  I have a serial midi timepiece AV and a usb Midi Express XT.  (Well, technically it is a usb & serial interface but I am using it with USB).

I haven't done any extensive testing with the system and, to be honest, I don't do anything close to serious with music so there might be timing issues, etc.

…and now I HAVE met someone who runs serial and USB simultaneously. That's why I love this Forum!

The Griffin is very similar to the SX Pro. Also, just as scarce. This is where you enter the land of a zillion variables. depending on exactly which computer, exactly which interfaces, which DAW, which synth modules etc etc. Many, many different results can be obtained all the way from "purrs like a kitten" to "I smashed the entire f*&^king thing with a hammer". Traditionally, it's not been necessary to even think about running "weird" combinations of stuff like this, but as time goes on and stuff gets ever-older and harder to find in good condition, stranger and stranger configurations of gear just start to happen more and more.

End of the day, it's up to the individual to decide how to spend one's time on Earth - either cobbling together odd piles of gear that may or may not play well together or to pass the time typing this kind of bullshit… 

[macStuff]

20 years later, still going thru all this bullshit because apple decided to remove a serial port from its design that it could have easily just left in place
it would have been nice if a few macs had both during transition from serial to usb

[part12studios]

Thanks for the help and insight!  I have a quicksilver and a sawtooth, but the sawtooth isn't the one i'm using for music, but neither have serial. 

I don't really blame mac for dropping serial and going all USB.  usb has proven to be a good standard for many years (almost as impressive as midi)

My MOTU MTP AVs both have serial.  one is usb (how i get it to work with the macs i have) and the 2nd one is connected via a special crossover serial cable which networks the two to be seen as one 16 midi in/out.  I could live without the MIDI Express

However it looks like finding a pci serial card is not easy or cost effective.  one on ebay for $80 but that's too much for me to justify at this time.  i kinda worry also that when i have the 12-13 midi devices i have going over serial worries me it might end up being a possible MIDI bottleneck..   if i knew the card would work and fix everything i'd probably go for it..  but i'll hunt around and maybe luck into something cheap / free sometime. 

now i have an idea of what to look for and that's a big help! 

Sincerely,
Caleb

[macStuff]

its quite the opposite
midi over serial is better than usb because usb is a packeted protocol
wheras serial is fullly continuous;

you heard the other guy say he found a g4port for 10$
try to find a stealth port or a g4 port
there are many of them in existance

also if its a midi express those units dont support networking like the MTP units do unfortunately
according to the documentation

[part12studios]

yea if i go all serial, i understand the midi express would be out..  it definitely has no serial.  the MTP's both do for sure. 

So I found this one:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/GeeThree-STEALTH-SERIAL-PORT-for-APPLE-POWERMAC-G3-B-W-and-G4-w-PCI-GRAPHICS/114042724929?hash=item1a8d79e241:g:gekAAOSwBQ1eDAUR

so maybe i'll make an offer for something like this, but looking at it, i'm not sure if my Quicksilver board would be able to interface this device. 

then there is this on for a G4:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/GeeThree-STEALTH-Serial-Port-for-Apple-Power-Macintosh-G4-MINT-NOS/153791926621?hash=item23ceb6915d:g:md8AAOSwhe9eGNsz

Again a unique interface I don't recognize and wonder how it would fit in my Quicksilver (if at all)



then there is THIS one, which looks very PCI and a good price, but maybe it's still not something OS9 / Quicksilver would recognize? 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VGA-DVI-Serial-Video-Card-Apple-Macintosh-Computers/163983418027?hash=item262e2c62ab:g:1ucAAOSw4-td8FnO

what do you think? 

[macStuff]

the first one is for a g3 b+w
the 2nd one will work in both a sawtooth and a quiksilver
the 3rd one is not a serial card its a graphics card with svideo someones a little stupid

[Protools5LEGuy]

The 3rd is a graphics cards with bad capacitors

[part12studios]

I am glad you caught that, however that’s actually not necessarily a dealbreaker. I’ve had to change capacitors on old hardware before so I might reach out to the person maybe talk them down more given the fact that it’s as is.

[FdB]

Uh-oh. Seen the prices on these lately?
Thought I’d sent this one to “Bad Bob” last year.

And wait.... you need a video card? Huh?

[GaryN]

20 years later, still going thru all this bullshit because apple decided to remove a serial port from its design that it could have easily just left in place
it would have been nice if a few macs had both during transition from serial to usb

Come on C, you know better than that. Take that kind of position and next comes "they should have never removed": SCSI, Direct Processor Slots, analog video, ADB etc. etc, etc.

The items we're discussing now - PCI serial cards, stealth port adapters etc. ARE the 3rd-party efforts that made up for that shortcoming.

The only thing that's NOT been mentioned so far is the Keyspan USA-28X USB-to-serial adapter. 

[macStuff]

i still never got my hands on a keyspan PCI or a keyspan USB i came close to ordering a usb keyspan but it never happened... in my eyes its a bandaid solution it would be nice to get one for experience sake though; for testing + comparison purposes if i ever feel like wasting more of my planet earth time

[part12studios]

regarding usb to serial adapters..  wouldn't this kinda go back to the problem of usb / midi performance?  not to say that i've encountered any problems with midi over usb except when i have too many MIDI Clock signals being pushed, but (thanks to IIO) I was able to contain the flood of midi clock info from my Alesis Nitro brain module. 

@FdB yea the video card part isn't needed but it seemed like the price point made it worth putting up with it.  i could manage using that video card as well IF I had to stop using the other card due to any compatibility trouble..  I tried doing dual monitors before with problematic results but even if i could do it now i don't have room for a 2nd monitor. 

yea i'll keep looking around.  thanks for the model tips!  super helpful.  i just didn't want to get something that isn't compatible.  a lot of older items don't always offer explicit compatibility in ads and such.

[macStuff]

dont bother with that graphic card; its not macos9 compatible even i dont think
it looked like it was a geforce 5200 or 6200 ; trust me its not worth a second look

[part12studios]

ok thanks for that!  yea warning heeded. 

what about the others?   the ones from the G3 and G4..  would either of those work and if so, what the heck do they plug into? 

[macStuff]

lol you are a bit lost arent you
the g3 one (#1) is only for use in a B+W G3 tower; its incompatible with the g4 ones (the connector is different)

i already explained that #2 was the option u want its compatible with both your macs
it plugs into the modem port on the motherboard
https://www.ebay.com/itm/GeeThree-STEALTH-Serial-Port-for-Apple-Power-Macintosh-G4-MINT-NOS/153791926621?hash=item23ceb6915d:g:md8AAOSwhe9eGNsz

there was a guy from australia selling clones of the stealth port
which he renamed jamport
 http://alexhixon.com/projects/jamport/
not sure if u would be able to get in touch with him though i think he stopped responding to emails
he only charges 50$ australian dollars if u can get ahold of him

his website still apperas to be taking orders at 45$ aus dollars each

if u really feel you need a video upgrade, track down a radeon 8500 or a Geforce 4 4200/4400/4600 those are the only graphics adapters worth buying for a macos9 daw; its quite easy to find a radeon 8500 LE version that can be flashed to mac theres countless threads on this kinda stuff in the display section of the forum for you to read

[part12studios]

omg that was amazing!   Thanks @macStuff...  that clone is $35 USD!   done, ordered, stoked

Still not sure how things will look when trying to route midi ports on my MIDI Time Pieces via Serial (anyone have screenshots?) as how you would select specific ports to send / receive stuff with serial based software?

I am excited because I found some very old Peavey SP editing mac software but like other programs I'd seen, it seemed like they only supported a simple serial interface..   

Also I've seen some local people selling serial interfaces that are non-MOTU.. someone in the next town is selling a serial MTP (non av) so as a backup I'm sure I could get him to sell it for $20 seeing i'm probably the only guy in a 100 mile radius actually looking for a serial based midi interface