OS 9.2.2 insanely unstable on Sawtooth w/ Sonnet Encore ST

[MrKsoft]

I've posted this around a bit, but figured it was time to ask the OS 9 experts...

I picked up a Sawtooth the other day with a 1.2Ghz Encore ST (single CPU) installed.  It had Leopard on it which seemed totally stable, but I bought this thing for OS 9 so I wiped it and installed 9.2.2.  On OS 9 I get freezes like crazy.  Sometimes it won't even finish booting, sometimes it makes it 5 minutes, sometimes 15, but inevitably it just totally locks up (no error, just the pointer, screen, audio etc all freeze).  Certain things seem to make it more likely to freeze, such as trying to start Unreal Tournament, or copying a file over the network via FTP.  I never got it to freeze when the system was left idle-- it would only happen if I was "doing something" even if it's something as simple as using Control Panels.

I've been looking all over this forum and have tried several things based on what I found (not necessarily in this order):

• Swapped RAM for known good sticks (tried about a dozen individual PC100 sticks with sizes between 128-512MB)
• Swapped the Radeon 9000 that was installed for a spare I had that I know works fine.  I'd be curious to try an Nvidia card to see if it's a conflict with the ATI drivers, but I just have these two 9000s and a PCI 7000.
• Swapped hard drives
• Switched out the IDE hard drive to a SATA drive on a PCI SIL3112 controller
• Removed extra USB 1.1 card
• Verified installation of Sonnet extension (tried both 2.3.1 and 3.1 versions) and firmware update (system is on the correct 4.2.8 firmware with the Sonnet patch)
• Swapped in a different Apple CPU Plugins file that I found on this forum
• Booting with only the Sonnet extension
• Booting with no extensions at all
• Cleared PRAM via Cmd-Opt-P-R
• Cleared NVRAM in Open Firmware
• Tested for issues using a bootable TechTool Pro disc -- primarily the RAM, but found no problems on any other tests either
• Re-applied thermal paste to CPU heatsink

The other threads here seemed to be regarding the Dual CPU versions, and focusing on install problems, but I had no trouble at all using the OS 9 universal install disc.  Problems only came up after installing.  I also installed Tiger on a separate drive and it has run with absolutely zero freezes, even when running intensive software for a few hours straight.  No problems in Classic Environment either.  It appears to be some kind of interaction between OS 9 and the Sonnet, which is really unfortunate if there is no solution.  Unfortunately I don't have the stock CPU so I have no way of verifying that the Sonnet really is the problem. Any thoughts?

[macStuff]

this is personally why i have not bothered with ppc cpu upgrades at all; because its sketchy all the time
https://web.archive.org/web/20041229220416/http://www.sonnettech.com/product/encore_stg4.html

what disc did u use to install os9
there are many different install sources
can you provide url of which os9 installer you used?

i would urge you to try these installers;
the original install cds for the sawtooth;
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/calxk3ticozkv/AGP_sawtooth_G4_restore

do u have the original ATI RAGE 128 Pro card?
(in an attempt to take things as back to original spec as possible)
if you are using the radeon 9000 that was built for the MDD /w ADC connections etc
while its basically very similar to the radeon 8500 i have found that it is not the best
match for the sawtooth machine; i run mine with an 8500 or with the original rage 128 pro for os 9

looking forward to hearing some good feedback;
try to install the original 9.02 cds and then patch up to 9.22 using the updates here:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/mnr89qn6q580nuk/Mac_os_9_Updates.smi.bin/file

i think you also will need to reinstall the sonnet cpu extension
https://web.archive.org/web/20041204101912/http://www.sonnettech.com/downloads/proc_upgrds_sw.html https://web.archive.org/web/20041204101912/http://www.sonnettech.com/downloads/software/ce_install_v203.hqx
https://web.archive.org/web/20060216042059/http://www.sonnettech.com/downloads/software/ce_install_v231.hqx
https://web.archive.org/web/20070806231727/http://www.sonnettech.com/downloads/software/ce_install_v30.sit

[GaryN]

  I also installed Tiger on a separate drive and it has run with absolutely zero freezes, even when running intensive software for a few hours straight.  No problems in Classic Environment either.  It appears to be some kind of interaction between OS 9 and the Sonnet, which is really unfortunate if there is no solution.  Unfortunately I don't have the stock CPU so I have no way of verifying that the Sonnet really is the problem. Any thoughts?

I'm pretty much aligned with MacStuff. You've eliminated virtually every common cause of "Sonnetitis" known.
It may be very simple: The computer worked with Leopard, and now works with Tiger. That eliminates all hardware issues. You have the proper firmware and it IS patched - otherwise, again, it wouldn't work in OSX.

The only thing left is the OS9 installation itself. Something's wrong with it. No, I don't know what but there must be something. Where did you get it? (Hopefully, not here).

Perform the following in order.
1. Try a different installer.
2. Cross fingers.
3. See what happens.
4. Report back.

[MrKsoft]

Uhh... well this is weird.  I have tried the following discs:

• Mac OS 9.0.2 Sawtooth-specific image
• Mac OS 9.0.4 retail disc
• Mac OS 9.1 Universal image
• Mac OS 9.2.2 image, not sure where it's from.  Possibly a retail disc?  I burned it almost 10 years ago to install on a Pismo.

Every single one of these just sits at a grey screen.  I noticed they appear fine when inserted in OS X, and I can choose them as a startup disc, but if I use the Option boot menu, the discs do not have a volume name!  However, the Mac OS 9.2.2 Universal Install shows the correct MacOS9Lives volume name in the Option menu and boots fine.  I burned the images on Tiger with Toast 9 -- that should work fine, right?

I should note that my original OS 9 install was also using the 9.2.2 Universal Image.  I had burned it several years ago, but I went ahead and redownloaded it and burned a new disc to play it safe.  Although, I thought it had been updated since 2013?  It still says "The Well Tempered Mac Os (2013)"

Regardless, I have reinstalled using the new burn.  Unfortunately, my Unreal Tournament stress test still caused it to lock up after about 10 minutes of gameplay. So no difference.

Without the ability to test different OS versions, I have to probably look at hardware changes.  For graphics, I don't have the original Rage 128, it came with the Radeon 9000 in it already.  I imagine they are cheap so I can probably get one.  My brother is visiting tomorrow and he has an MDD with a Geforce 4 MX in it, so I might ask him to bring it and try that even though it's also an ADC card.  I might also try my flashed Radeon 7000 PCI even though it wouldn't be a preferable option; it might react differently to the system.

If nothing else works, I will probably try to obtain an original 500mhz CPU module.  It'd be a downgrade but should still run what I need fine (games mostly-- I think there are very few if any games for OS 9 that ask for >500mhz).

edit: System doesn't boot with just the flashed Radeon 7000.  I think the Sawtooth really wants an AGP card.  So much for that!  I'll have updates tomorrow after I have tried the Geforce 4 MX.

[refinery]

as i recall with burning certain OS9 disk images in OSX, I had to mount the volume, and tell toast to burn/copy the mounted volume and not burn the ISO directly.

Unfortunately, my Unreal Tournament stress test still caused it to lock up after about 10 minutes of gameplay. So no difference.

sometimes it makes it 5 minutes, sometimes 15, but inevitably it just totally locks up (no error, just the pointer, screen, audio etc all freeze).  Certain things seem to make it more likely to freeze, such as trying to start Unreal Tournament, or copying a file over the network via FTP.

honestly this sounds to me like maybe the fan is not running at proper speed when booted in OS9 and its overheating under load.

[GaryN]

honestly this sounds to me like maybe the fan is not running at proper speed when booted in OS9 and its overheating under load.

This is definitely the next area to investigate. Is the original fan still in there OR is it some kind of "ArcticMiracle" or such that's quieter because it doesn't move as much air? I don't know exactly which PPC chip was used in the Encore so there may not be any temperature gauge that will work in OS9.

The ONLY one that might work is Thermograph or Control Strip Temp HERE: http://www.kezer.net/shareware/
You can easily read temp in OSX but it will only count if you can stress the CPU as much as gaming in OS9 does.

All that said, it would be a GREAT idea to pull the Sonnet, clean and re-apply new thermal paste. There's a real chance that's the problem.

[MrKsoft]

Alright, so here are the results...

Switching to the Geforce 4 MX didn't change anything, so that may rule out an ATI-specific interaction between the drivers and the Sonnet.

Regarding the thermals, I had actually already thought of this and re-pasted the CPU with Arctic Silver 5.  I also bought some 60mm fans and ziptied one to the heatsink to blow air across it.  (Apparently Sonnet sold these at some point without a heatsink and said to reuse the original heatsink, but also sold it at one time with the purple heatsink and attached fan.  Mine was installed with the stock heatsink, so there was no fan mounted to it.)  Not sure exactly how the internal airflow is supposed to be laid out, so I could be causing a loop of hot air or something.  It doesn't seem to make a difference if I leave the case open, though.  In fact, the heatsink is actually barely warm to the touch.  It actually made me think I hadn't properly pasted the CPU and it wasn't dissipating onto the heatsink, so I took it off and redid it again!

I was able to get Thermograph to read temperatures off the CPU, and it idles around 37-41C and it got as high as 63C when doing things, but it didn't seem to be associated with when it would freeze.  However, it seems to record temperatures at such a slow rate I'm not 100% sure it's keeping up with any changes.  The 63C number concerns me a little bit because I thought the 7455's were only rated up to 65C, but I'm also not sure of the accuracy.

I still can't get it to freeze on OS X, even with heavy CPU+GPU load (multiple applications running + unstuffing a large file + OpenGL games simultaneously, pegging the CPU to 100%).  I am unable to monitor temperatures in OS X, as no thermal sensors are detected by either Thermograph X or iStat Menus.  Thus, I can't tell if it is also hitting that 63C number.  The fan behavior seems the same, as I believe all the G4 fans are fixed-speed.  They never ramp up or down.  The one I attached to the heatsink is for sure, as I bought it that way

Things left to try:

• I will try re-burning the Sawtooth specific 9.0.2 image using the mount-then-copy suggestion.
• Continued attempts to get it freeze in OS X under load.

I'm not dead-set on needing to use the Sonnet if it's this problematic, so I'm still going to try and hunt down a 500mhz stock CPU module, or maybe a 450 if I'm impatient.  I can keep the Sonnet around for some kind of early OS X build perhaps.

[GaryN]

You're doing an excellent job of hitting all of the diagnostic bases.
Based on your latest observations, it's almost certain that temperature is not the problem.
I wouldn't expect to see "freeze" behavior until a really critical temp i.e. pushing 70C

*  BTW this monitor will work in Tiger: https://www.bresink.com/osx/LegacyProducts.html
**Note "Hardware Monitor" will NOT work but "Temperature Monitor" will.

Having eliminated virtually every possible cause in hardware and probably the OS, maybe it's time to turn to the software.
"Freezes" in all pre-OSX Mac OS's are most often (or at least very very often) caused by something hanging in a routine and/or failing to hand off to another when needed. I have NO experience with your game(s) but I do know that most if not all of them require a good working relationship with Quicktime or (older) Quickdraw. You may want to find out as much as possible about which versions of any / all graphics utilities they expect to "see".
I remember you said before that you could provoke a freeze even by doing something as simple as launching a Control Panel. Was that while a game was running or with NO apps or games running?
This is getting deeper and deeper into the weeds. By that I mean the mysterious land of "obsolete software on obsolete hardware" where your biggest problem is the lack of information, developer support, updates etc. There may or may not be some vague bug or issue with the particular combination of everything you're doing and the only way to test it NOW all these years later is by relentless trial and error.  That involves (as you already said) maybe finding an original CPU to try OR a completely different computer OR an earlier or later version of apps and on and on and on.

[MrKsoft]

I'm not convinced it has anything to do with the games themselves.  It will even freeze when booting off the MacOS9Lives disc just running the installer.  Still no luck on getting anything but that installer to work, so I'm kind of giving up.  I have ordered a 450mhz CPU (only 15 bucks, so no big deal) and we'll see how that goes!

Also, I wasn't able to get Temperature Monitor to show anything either.  It's the same as the other two programs in that the only sensors it detects are the SMART values from the hard drives.  I think OS X doesn't expose the sensors properly since it is running a G4 7455 instead of the expected 7400.  OS 9 seems a little more lenient, but maybe it has to do with the Sonnet extension.  Dunno, OS X didn't seem to have any support software/extensions after running the Sonnet installer-- just the firmware updater program.  *shrug*

[macStuff]

my sawtooth is an original 450mhz cpu and it doesnt freeze
i dont have much experience with the sonnet cpus; my first try with those things was trying to upgrade a b+w g3 and i ended up throwing the g3 in a dumpster along withthe upgrade cpu.. thats actually what led me to this forum lol that was back in 2012 or 2013 i felt so guilty for trashing teh computer afterwards; i felt like i made a mistake but it really pissed me off that it didnt work as intended;since then ive always leaned away from third party cpu upgrades because of the X-factor wierdness that can occur and ruin your day.

actually that zif upgrade was probably a sonnet i think it was a g4 500mhz upgrade for a g3 B+W. back in the day when i was still using g3's running panther + tiger + os9.

regardless of the cpu i see improved performance on my sawtooth using its original install disc;
like i said when i droped the link earlier; im looking forward to see from your feedback if you can see the difference that i saw;

the arctic silver is definately a worthwhile idea imho.
i would also look into getting a better heatsink;
 perhaps one of the larger ones that was used for dual cpus would be of help;
if the problem only happens in os9 its highly likely its related to a specific extension or combo of extensions;
have u experimented with disabling extension sets? booting in safe mode holding shift? etc?

i really hope u use the images i posted; i bought them from ebay with the specific intention of sharing them with people such as yourself; and they were not cheap either i think i paid like 40-50 bucks just to get them to be absolutely sure i had the original discs; this came after discussions with others online talking about whether or not apple tweaked individual extensions for each mac they ever built; tuned to the specific hardware; i have the original discs in my cd binder;

if os9 is your aim; then just save yourself some hair and ditch the cpu upgrade;
get the dual 500cpu + heatsink; try the heatsink on the sonnet; if it doesnt work maybe just ditch the sonet cpu
the performance isnt that great anyway; ppc cpus, what can you do?; if u want high performance on osx just use an intel cpu my intel hackintosh does twice a G5 benchmark even through rosetta emulation layer; and 4x a G5 with mac intel apps. os9 doesnt even really need such power - its the same way win9x doesnt even use extra cores, hyper threading etc;

[MrKsoft]

I may have found something!

I was reading another thread on here and the function of the Apple CPU Plugins file was being discussed.  It was more specific to the 7447/7448 but it led me to think about it in context of my 7455 system.  Since I don't have dual CPUs, I decided to try removing the Apple CPU Plugins file completely by dragging the System Folder:Extensions:Multiprocessing folder out of the System Folder.  This seems to be recommended for the Giga Designs 7447a to force it into single CPU mode.

Strangely, doing this on my single CPU setup seems to have made a difference.  I was able to run Unreal Tournament for an hour across several bot-matches without a single issue, then quit playing and shut down gracefully.  I did not have any issues at all-- previously the best I had done was completing a single match and freezing partway through the next. I will continue testing the system this evening with installing other programs/games/system enhancements/etc.  I am not sure if there are any ramifications to having removed the CPU Plugins, apart from possible loss of power management (I did notice Thermograph can no longer read temperatures)-- not that I expect much from power management in OS 9 anyway. 

[GaryN]

Also, I wasn't able to get Temperature Monitor to show anything either.  It's the same as the other two programs in that the only sensors it detects are the SMART values from the hard drives. 

That's odd. I have a Sonnet dual 1.8GHz in my MDD and it works there. Mine are 7448s though. There's a temp function that's either built into the CPU or it isn't. Sorry 'bout that - I though it would probably work; oh well……

HOWEVER

I may have found something!

I decided to try removing the Apple CPU Plugins file completely by dragging the System Folder:Extensions:Multiprocessing folder out of the System Folder.
Strangely, doing this on my single CPU setup seems to have made a difference.  I was able to run Unreal Tournament for an hour across several bot-matches without a single issue, then quit playing and shut down gracefully.  I did not have any issues at all-- previously the best I had done was completing a single match and freezing partway through the next.

Now there's an unexpected revelation! See what persistence gets you?
Just for grins, try downloading the Sonnet MDX plugins replacement file I posted HERE:

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,3809.msg25424.html#msg25424

Put it in the Multiprocessing folder where the Apple CPU Plugins was and see what happens. I obtained it in a search involving my dual but I know a couple of people who have used it on other Sonnet models as well. It may make no difference at all but either way, you've discovered the Apple one has got to go.

Congratulations!

[ELN]

Very interesting! We could probably do some gentle hacking to isolate which part of the plugin is causing crashes.

The plugin provides the v2 NanoKernel with access to complicated CPU model specific routines that aren’t needed just to get it running. The main applications are power management (idling, clock speed adjustment, suspend and temperature sensing), and inter-core bootstrapping and interrupts. So without it a uniprocessor machine will run fine but possibly a bit hot, and theoretically even a bit slow, and won’t sleep.

These functions of the plugin are useful, so it would be neat to disable just the parts that crash your machine.

But try the Sonnet one first!

[macStuff]

well duh; if u are running a single cpu upgrade then of course you shouldnt have anythin under System Folder:Extensions:Multiprocessing
that is only for cpus that are dual; its very presence is configuring the system for multi/dual cpus; how did it get there in first place?

people still play unreal tournament? i dont think ive played that since 1998 or 1999 before i even moved out
thats goin way back

[GaryN]

well duh; if u are running a single cpu upgrade then of course you shouldnt have anythin under System Folder:Extensions:Multiprocessing
that is only for cpus that are dual; its very presence is configuring the system for multi/dual cpus; how did it get there in first place?

Not necessarily. It's most likely there in case it's needed since there were a number of dual-proc machine variants.
As ELN said "The plugin provides the v2 NanoKernel with access to complicated CPU model specific routines". The Sonnet is using a chip in a configuration never used by Apple. I can imagine the OS going bonkers trying to figure out what to do with it. The Sonnet CPU file patches the confusion.
Without original program docs or an original programmer to torture for information, we'll probably never know all of it.

[MrKsoft]

Just for grins, try downloading the Sonnet MDX plugins replacement file I posted HERE:

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,3809.msg25424.html#msg25424

Put it in the Multiprocessing folder where the Apple CPU Plugins was and see what happens. I obtained it in a search involving my dual but I know a couple of people who have used it on other Sonnet models as well. It may make no difference at all but either way, you've discovered the Apple one has got to go.

Putting the Sonnet MDX plugin caused the freezing to return, so no good for this specific setup.  Running without the plugin at all seems to be the best option, with it continuing to be stable.

well duh; if u are running a single cpu upgrade then of course you shouldnt have anythin under System Folder:Extensions:Multiprocessing
that is only for cpus that are dual; its very presence is configuring the system for multi/dual cpus; how did it get there in first place?

It's installed by default as part of the MacOS9Lives image, since that's just an ASR image.  That seems to be fine for most standard Mac setups, but I guess it can cause issues with more exotic configurations like this.

I'm definitely thinking that the CPU Plugin doesn't know what to make of the CPU setup, since it's a Sawtooth that shipped with a 7400 but the CPU installed is a 7455.  There were some significant changes between the two, and if the CPU Plugin does thermal sensing, the culprit might be the altered thermal hardware.  I noticed from the Thermograph page a comment about the 7450 errata, so I tracked down the document and it says: "The thermal assist unit is not supported as a feature and has been removed from all MPC7450 family documentation except this errata sheet".  This likely applies to the 7455 and later chips as well since they are all derived from the 7450.

Obviously you can still measure temperature on the later G4s, but the TAU probably had some sort of role in temperature management, and removal of the TAU could conceivably cause an issue if the CPU Plugin thinks the computer has a 7400 and tries to talk to that now-nonexistent TAU.  At least, that's my take on it.  Not sure if it's accurate, but it lines up with what I understand at this point.

[macStuff]

It's installed by default as part of the MacOS9Lives image,

by "Default" LOL!
thats because that 'universal' installer is a cd that was created by Mactron; who uses dual cpus in MDD's
its probably caused alot of people using single cpus alot of headaches and head scratching
which is why i NEVER use that image. EVER. (no offense to mactron - but hes customized it and changed it; its not original from apple; hes added things + taken things away; this is a perfect example of that)

[ELN]

The CPU plugin is important to have on the Mac mini. Otherwise the CPU cannot be idled and the fans go very fast. Probably most laptops are the same.

As MrKsoft says, the plugin causes trouble on some unsupported CPUs. In my experience on the (?) 7447, the absence of the THRM special-purpose registers causes it to enter an infinite loop. I fixed this problem by patching the NanoKernel to protect the plugin from these calls, but a more elegant fix would probably be to create a patched CPU plugin that works right.

[GaryN]

by "Default" LOL!
thats because that 'universal' installer is a cd that was created by Mactron; who uses dual cpus in MDD's
its probably caused alot of people using single cpus alot of headaches and head scratching
which is why i NEVER use that image. EVER. (no offense to mactron - but hes customized it and changed it; its not original from apple; hes added things + taken things away; this is a perfect example of that)

Don't be ridiculous man. It's part of the OS9 retail discs. It goes in a "Multiprocessing" folder inside of the "System Extensions" folder.
The installer is supposed to look at the hardware and either enable it or move it to the "System extensions Disabled" folder just like any other extension.
It's only troublesome because the Sonnet CPUs use PPC models in configurations that Apple didn't.
This is just stuff you learn over time by compiling information from as many users and installations as possible. The scarcer those installations are, as with the Sonnet upgrades, the longer it takes to figure it all out.

If anybody knows that, it's you - the guy who has compiled more data on more things Apple than any other 50 people I know of.

[macStuff]

by "Default" LOL!
thats because that 'universal' installer is a cd that was created by Mactron; who uses dual cpus in MDD's
its probably caused alot of people using single cpus alot of headaches and head scratching
which is why i NEVER use that image. EVER. (no offense to mactron - but hes customized it and changed it; its not original from apple; hes added things + taken things away; this is a perfect example of that)

Don't be ridiculous man. It's part of the OS9 retail discs. It goes in a "Multiprocessing" folder inside of the "System Extensions" folder.
The installer is supposed to look at the hardware and either enable it or move it to the "System extensions Disabled" folder just like any other extension.
It's only troublesome because the Sonnet CPUs use PPC models in configurations that Apple didn't.
This is just stuff you learn over time by compiling information from as many users and installations as possible. The scarcer those installations are, as with the Sonnet upgrades, the longer it takes to figure it all out.

If anybody knows that, it's you - the guy who has compiled more data on more things Apple than any other 50 people I know of.

yes information + memory is always degrading + fading away, much like the years left in our lifespan lol
sucks to be mortal; but when someone thinks they know everything thats when usually they get shown that they dont know shit; lol

i never got much into the "high end" cpu models, overclocking + such
if anyone remembers my most experience with overclocking was turning my 450 b+W g3 into a 500mhz by changing the jumpers lol
which introduced system instability so i ended up backing it back down to 450

compiling info does not mean i'm a master of that info unfortunately.
i'm just a guy who's always getting ready to get ready lol
in hopes that one day it all comes together to do, well, something, for someone, hopefully both myself + others