Make instruments from studio setup

[Syntho]

 I seem to remember at one time that every time I launched SVP, it would ask or at least automatically make a studio setup from my current OMS file. I don't get that anymore (or maybe I didn't in the first place and I just don't remember?). I have to go to the Instruments window and manually click to make the setup. How can I go about getting it to do it automatically? There's even a dialog that asks if I want it to make it automatically and it's ticked when I click Yes, but it doesn't seem to have an effect.

[GaryN]

This smells like one of those nonsensical head scratchers that you fix by trashing the prefs and generating some new ones.

Start with >System Folder/OMS folder/OMS preferences/OMS Current State

There's also >System Folder/Preferences/Studio Vision 4.x Prefs which will also reset a few other things you'll have to re-adjust so try the other first.

[IIO]

i believe the link to the newly created oms setup file is only "stored" when you save a project file in such apps.
does SVP have a autoload project? then do this there, too ("save"...)

[GaryN]

i believe the link to the newly created oms setup file is only "stored" when you save a project file in such apps.
does SVP have a autoload project? then do this there, too ("save"...)

Actually, the setup is always stored as an OMS file and is referenced by SVP on launch. The idea is you can have a regular setup and you can also modify it for a specific project. When you launch a saved project file, if the setup that is current according to OMS is different than it was when the file was stored, you're asked whether you want to use the setup as it was or as it currently is.

There are good reasons for this outlined in the manual but mainly it's because the setup file is describing the settings of external, often hardware MIDI modules, synths etc.

[Syntho]

I trashed both of these preferences. Still the same thing. Maybe I'm not remembering right, but I thought I remembered launching SVP, fresh, and it had the "make instruments" thing show up automatically. Every time I launch now, it only has Quicktime stuff in it until I make the instruments list manually. Hmm...

[Syntho]

Ok, after a couple years of using Vision I;m still trying to wrap my head around some things. I think my problem was that I didn't realize I should go to File - Save as Setup. Now they load automatically. I'm still uncertain about the automatic 'make from studio setup' think but I'm gonna tackle the manual and see if I can understand better.

Also, completely off topic question: I have some midi files and SVP files where I programmed drums using either other instruments or Quicktime and I want to copy everything over and have it play back from another module using other sounds. What is the quickest way you guys have found to do this? It takes a bit to manually import a midi, then copy over the notes and set everything up.

[IIO]

The idea is you can have a regular setup and you can also modify it for a specific project. When you launch a saved project file, if the setup that is current according to OMS is different than it was when the file was stored

interesting. is that implementation a leftover from OMS 1.x times?

i dont see why this could be a benefit over switching between different setups for a projectfile when needed.

[GaryN]

interesting. is that implementation a leftover from OMS 1.x times?

i dont see why this could be a benefit over switching between different setups for a projectfile when needed.

It's not "a leftover" of any kind.
It's simple. You must remember that when SVP and Cubase 5 and all the other DAWs we so revere around here were current, the typical studio was a hybrid of tape and MIDI, and actual digital audio was only a then–new ability due to Moore's Law, CPU power and RAM finally getting fast enough, large enough and cheap enough. That MIDI was mostly hardware modules and keyboard synths - sound familiar?

Your "Studio Setup" is a description and routing document you build in OMS so it's available to SVP, Galaxy and all of the others entities that would have referenced it if Opcode had survived. It's not something that changes radically - it just keeps getting tweaked, modified and added to over time. It's "attached" to your studio, not to any particular song or song file. It's no different than plug-ins or virtual instruments… they don't all change all the time, they just get used as needed.

Do you really need me to explain this?

[IIO]

well, we will see if you can explain it. until now, i dont get what you say.

in programs like cubase only the project files contains a link to an OMS setup.

this totally makes sense, because you might use a different hardware setup, different physical ports and IACs buses for different projects. that is basically what the "setup" files are for: beeing able to switch between different ones.

since cubase has by default an "autoload" song, which opens when you launch the app, you can save there which OMS setup should be used when you start a new project.

now if you open cubase without an autoload song, i.e. you execute the app without any open document, no OMS setup will be chosen or asked for, simply because you dont need a midi setup when you dont work on a music project.

why is is different in SVP?

[GaryN]

OK… I'll try. Some of this is a question of how one defines "setup".

For example, you are freely interchanging "OMS" setup with "studio" setup. While they sometimes refer to essentially the same thing they are not necessarily identical.

"Studio setup" in the strict sense, is the state / arrangement / configuration of your studio.
That's everything from (and including) the interface outward. Any MIDI controllers, devices, reverbs & FX, the ports they're connected to, channels they're set to yada yada.

The current studio setup, is the above as it exists right now…today.

The "OMS setup" is: The app itself, (d-uh) or sometimes means the studio setup as it was defined by OMS when the song file was created. OR, maybe a different setup you want to use at the moment.

in programs like cubase only the project files contains a link to an OMS setup.

this totally makes sense, because you might use a different hardware setup, different physical ports and IACs buses for different projects. that is basically what the "setup" files are for: beeing able to switch between different ones.

since cubase has by default an "autoload" song, which opens when you launch the app, you can save there which OMS setup should be used when you start a new project.

Actually, you can't "save which OMS set should be used" – again… the OMS Studio setup defines the current state of your studio.
You can choose to use an OMS setup that's different from the current state but as SVP reminds you, you then have to send any/all different patches, channel assignments etc. to the current MIDI devices to make them match it.

I am not a Cubase user, so I can't speak to how or why you would "execute" the app if you weren't "working on a music project" BUT I don't think it's really, actually any different from SVP. Cubase "wants" / needs  an OMS Setup file to reference that describes the setup it will be using and so does SVP.

When you launch SVP or Galaxy, they look for and load the current OMS Studio Setup file. If you want to use a different configuration that say, you used previously, you can launch OMS, open the setup file you want, and make it current. If you do that, as soon as you go back to SVP, it will "see" the current OMS Setup has changed, and it normally will ask you what you want to do. That's just to be safe.
That's no different than it asking you what to do when you open a foreign or just an old SVP song file that references a different Studio setup.
In either case, you're going to have to maybe send patches to devices, change channels, or even configure a device to respond to a different device's MIDI track that maybe was a different drum machine or sampler or ?? that you don't currently have.

Let's not forget that OMS itself was / is an effort to provide a constant, a reference for any / all MIDI sequencers to use in order to provide as much interchangeability and interoperability as possible between different MIDI hardware and software and save your sanity in the process.

I understand that it's… let's say often less than crystal clear how it all flows. It's the nature of the beast (MIDI) and probably would make more sense… again, if Opcode had survived.
But hey, this is just one reason why the manuals are hundreds of pages long.

Shit be complicated 'n all… you dig?

[Syntho]

Alright, I get what's going on now. Simple concept, just didn't realize it worked like that. That dialog is just to remind you to make instruments again if your setup changes AS THE PROGRAM IS LAUNCHED. That's it. I thought it was a bigger deal than that.

[IIO]

OK… I'll try. Some of this is a question of how one defines "setup".

my question was why SVP differs from cubase and other apps in the way it stores the link, because i dont know SVP.

since you dont know how cubase or other apps (and their project documents) use OMS setups, you probably wont be able to tell the difference.

[GaryN]

my question was why SVP differs from cubase and other apps in the way it stores the link…

I really don't think it's different. The OMS file there for the use of apps that can use it. Does Cubase make you select or create an OMS setup when you start a new project? Of course not. I'll bet it defaults to the current setup – just as SVP does. As Syntho just said… simple concept.

[IIO]

it defaults to nothing. regardless what you bet or assume. only its projects documents do. even there you can turn it off and e.g. make an audio-only project (or for that matter, a midi-only project with no audio driver chosen.)

i´ve missed the SVP decade completly, i started using protools and cubase when cubase on the mac starteted getting audio plug-ins. protools, cubase, logic, PD and paris were the tools everyone knew here. first time i ´ve heard about studio vision must haben been 15 years later.

[GaryN]

I honestly don't understand exactly what we're debating here.

It seems to be only about exactly when, at what moment Cubase may or may not "decide" to reference the OMS setup to see what's available.
If it "waits" until you actually select a new or existing project as opposed to when the app is first launched, how does that even matter?

SVP was / is an expansion of Opcode Vision which was a MIDI-only sequencer. It seems logical that SVP would load a default OMS Setup immediately upon launch if an existing project file was not yet selected. It IS certainly possible to launch SVP without an OMS Setup doc present as you say, record a barbershop quartet. SVP will simply remind you there isn't one (if there isn't) and ask if you want to go without.

When you launch a brand-new project in SVP, you normally just launch the default Setup because that contains many other configs and defaults besides just the MIDI Instruments. It is perfectly possible to create and have a number of "empty" Setup files available to choose from for use under various situations. Example: I used to have an ex-music teacher friend who composed large full orchestral scores so I had a Studio Setup file that completely maxed out every module I had with multiple string, brass, woodwinds et al on multiple channels, many in mono mode. Loading THAT Setup doc would then easily enable me to use Galaxy to configure all of the MIDI hardware because it was all residing in a Galaxy Bundle. I would only need to open that Bundle and I could then send it ALL with one click. Suddenly, there was an entire orchestra waiting for a score to be recorded. Afterwards, I could return everything back to my usual, less Classical setup just as easily.

That's the very point and essence of OMS and SVP / Galaxy integration.

If Steinberg wrote Cubase a little differently as to exactly when OMS Setup would enter the picture, that decision would seem fall under the minutiae of software writing style. Regardless of exactly when it happens in either app, it happens when and if needed.

So, again, why does it even matter?

[IIO]

because it seems illogical that the app even gives you the option to choose a driver setup document before you opened a project document.

say you save a "song" file in cubase, which is the main type of document. this song will now contain which OMS setup was used in it. next time you open the song, the right setup will be recalled. if it is not available in the system folder, the host program will prompt you to choose another OMS setup one or create a new one. which will only be remembered next time when you now save the song again.

if the host program would always ask you about the OMS setup before you open a song, what should that be good for? the songs already contain the info which setup should be used.

why i wonder why (obviosly) developers have made slightly different decisions for the organisation? because i ask myself things like that when making an app every time. for some things it could be cool if the user can avoid settings prefs and stuff, in other situations it would be better to give people (or yourself) the highest possible flexibilty (for the price that you have to deal with shit)

[GaryN]

because it seems illogical that the app even gives you the option to choose a driver setup document before you opened a project document.

You don't "choose a driver setup document".
You don't seem to be grasping the fact that the Studio Setup Document (I'm calling it SSD from now on) is a reference TO, a listing OF and a configuration FOR a collection of REAL hardware AND software instruments that YOU create so your DAW knows WTF is up with your studio.

It's about perspective. Don't think of it as song-based - it's not. It's equipment / instrument based.

You DON'T necessarily make or need to make changes to it for every song / project file. The SSD is a LIST of INSTRUMENTS, EFFECTS, REVERBS etc. that are available at the moment. Having it CURRENT enables you to select with a click, where the notes you play on your controller or play back from sequenced tracks, go TO. The SONG has a list of instruments NOT an OMS Setup. The instruments list is built from the items available in the SSD.

If you pull something OUT and put something else IN, the SSD changes to reflect that.

The SSD you use is NOT stored with the song file - the list of INSTRUMENTS etc used on the song ARE. Therefore, if you open a song file and it lists instruments that WERE used THEN when it was created that are different from the instruments that ARE available NOW, SVP tells you so and asks what you want to do. That's because you'll HAVE to do something to make the MIDI data in the tracks go to acceptable substitutes or wherever.

In order to be able to DO that, SVP (or ANY DAW) MUST know what the current SSD is.
SO……
At launch, SVP creates an instruments list from the current SSD and now it's there to use.
Suppose you just want to noodle around? By having the instruments list built from the current SSD at launch, you can now just click where you want the controller MIDI to go even if you don't record anything.

OMS and the SSD reside in the "center" of the studio providing info about and access to everything in the studio.
OMS (and OMS Setup) exist independently - NOT tied to any song or project.

I really can't explain it any better than that. This is what owner's manuals are for.