Author Topic: Monitor stays black after booting  (Read 1650 times)

Offline davidivjak

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Monitor stays black after booting
« on: April 10, 2019, 03:20:30 PM »
Hello everybody!

I have a PowerMac G4 running with OS9. I use it for scanning medium format film on an Kodak RFS3570 filmscanner with SCSI connection.
When I setup the machine for the first time together with a Nvidia A74 and a 24" monitor with 1920 x 1200 resolution via DVI, everything worked perfectly fine.
Now I connected my 27" monitor which I use for editing on my Macbook to the G4, because I don´t like having two monitors in my room anymore. So I want two machines on one monitor.
When booting, the screen would stay black. You can see that there is some kind of signal coming through, as the monitor does not go into standby. I tried to boot with the 24" monitor again, without any problems. Then I just connected it with the 27" again while it was still running. Suddenly I had an image on the 27" as well, but it was distorted. When looking in the control panel for changing resolution, the only option offered there was 1920 x 1200.

Now my question: Is the Powermac G4 even able to display a higher resolution than 1920 x 1200? If not, is there any way that it would still boot up correctly with the 27", even if the image is distorted than? Maybe it´s somehow possible to display the 1920 x 1200 in the center of the 27"? I really don´t mind having black borders, I just want it to work properly.

Any help is highly appreciated!
Thank you very much :)

Kind regards,
David

Offline refinery

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Re: Monitor stays black after booting
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2019, 03:45:18 PM »
depends entirely on the video card. some can support higher resolutions, some cannot.
that sounds like its a GeForce 4 which is not a particularly powerful card.
personally I would suggest looking into updating to like a radeon 9000 which will have much better performance and resolution support.

your monitor may also have a mode for not stretching out the screen. usually its something like "native resolution mode" or "1:1 mode"
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Offline GaryN

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Re: Monitor stays black after booting
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2019, 06:36:48 PM »
I hate to be the wet blanket…but:

1920 x 1200 is the maximum signal transmittable over single-link DVI, so that's what you're limited to.
Substituting a Radeon or whatever will NOT improve anything. The format / protocol is maxed out.
There is NO 4X AGP graphics card compatible with a G4 that will exceed this.
Your Macbook is evidently a 2009 or newer model with a Mini-Display port with dual-link DVI capability or a Thunderbolt port.

          BOTTOM LINE → _____________
If you can't set the monitor itself to adapt to and display an incoming 1920 x 1200 signal, you're stuck.

Offline davidivjak

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Re: Monitor stays black after booting
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2019, 12:24:06 AM »
Thank you so much for the quick replies!

Well, that does not sound so good so far. Is there any way to reduce the transmitted resolution by the monitor so the G4 would still boot up at least? Any converter or so which can make the G4 think it would be connected to a 1920 x 1200 monitor?

Offline Astroman

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Re: Monitor stays black after booting
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2019, 02:09:00 PM »
It may depend on your specific monitor - most switch their resolution according to the incoming signal.
I use a monitor/usb keyboard mouse switching device to have one monitor/keyboard for 2 systems.
If you boot the G4 first, then it should be possible to switch between both system.
The 'G4 first' is only to keep the Mac happy that a compatible screen is connected.

Offline refinery

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Re: Monitor stays black after booting
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2019, 08:31:26 PM »
ah yes, GaryN is right, and i totally overlooked the DVI-only part, and that is correct, 1920x1200 is best you can get on single-link DVI.
however, if you're willing to go analog (and the monitor even has a vga port...) it can go higher than 1920x1200.
http://lowendmac.com/video/agp/radeon-9000.html

Quote
Resolutions: 640 x 480 to 2048 x 1536
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Offline davidivjak

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Re: Monitor stays black after booting
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2019, 11:42:14 PM »
Thank you guys!
I have the Eizo Flexscan EV2736, so all I have is the Displayport which is already used for the connection to my Macbook, and the DVI-D 24pin which I tried to connect the G4 to. Unfortunately it does not seem like it's switching resolutions... I can't find anything in the settings either.
Is there any graphics card with DVI-D for the G4 available then?

Offline darthnVader

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Re: Monitor stays black after booting
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2019, 01:39:27 AM »
Flashing a PC GeForce 6600/6800/7800 would give you Dual-Link DVI, however, sadly, you'd lose OS 9 support.

Offline davidivjak

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Re: Monitor stays black after booting
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2019, 02:16:51 AM »
Ahhh damn. Unfortunately I'll need OS9 as the scanner only works with that in Photoshop 7. :(
What about the ADC port? Will this help: https://www.ebay.de/itm/Apple-ADC-to-DVI-Adapter/183770522491?hash=item2ac993a37b:g:bJwAAOSw5L5cr2Nd

Sorry for being so nooby  ::)

Offline Astroman

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Re: Monitor stays black after booting
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2019, 02:25:35 AM »
yes, this should do the trick (price is reasonable)
In that case you use the monitor's source selection button (leftmost on my Eizo) and you have to select the DVI port when the G4 is booting (stating the obvious).

Offline davidivjak

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Re: Monitor stays black after booting
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2019, 06:56:11 AM »
Great! I just ordered it and will give it a try. I will update you then!
Thank you so far guys!

Offline GaryN

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Re: Monitor stays black after booting
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2019, 03:22:15 PM »
Wet blanket here………

FYI: The ADC port on the G4 card is no different from the DVI port other than shape and carrying ADC monitor power. Your result connecting there with an adapter will be exactly the same.

HOWEVER: I looked at the Flexscan manual (too much time on my hands) and it appears that it should be able to negotiate and set itself to 1920 x 1200. BUT it says that in order to hit that resolution:

"The monitor must be connected using the DD200DL signal cable (DVI dual link) provided with the product"

Why you need to use a dual-link cable to transmit a single-link sized signal? No idea.
SO: Do you have that cable?
IF SO: Try it.

Offline davidivjak

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Re: Monitor stays black after booting
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2019, 02:09:22 PM »
Thank you Gary for your advice!
I just checked it, it's the provided DD200DL signal cable. There's also an option on the monitor to display the image center scanned, but still, the G4 won't give me an image when booting up with the EV2736W connected.
Is there any kind of Nvidia driver that might help? 

Offline GaryN

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Re: Monitor stays black after booting
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2019, 02:39:33 PM »
Here's an obvious but so far unasked question.

There are two sets of graphics extensions in OS9 - one for ATI and one for Nvidia.
Do you have the Nvidia extensions loaded and enabled and the ATI disabled?

Offline darthnVader

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Re: Monitor stays black after booting
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2019, 07:32:38 AM »
As I recall, there is no Dual-Link DVI nVidia card that is supported under OS 9.

The only thing I can think of that may work, is to boot OS X, set the screen resolution you desire, then select the OS 9 install via the StartUp Disc and reboot.

Offline davidivjak

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Re: Monitor stays black after booting
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2019, 12:05:49 PM »
Well, the adapter arrived and I gave it a try anyways. Now it is getting weird: I connected the EV2736W via DVI cable with the adapter to the ADC port of the nVidia card. When booting, the image of the booting loading bar appeared for a few seconds, then the grey menu bar on top and then suddenly the image turned black again. I tried booting with the ADC adapter on the 24" monitor, without success. Booting with DVI only works well.
When I tried to repeat the process with the ADC adapter on the EV2736W again, it just had the same problems as I would have connected it with DVI only. Absolutely no image anymore. But I had one for a few seconds??

@Gary: No, I don't have the Nvidia extensions, but I found the ones from ATI which are enabled. Where can I get the Nvidia extensions?

Offline GaryN

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Re: Monitor stays black after booting
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2019, 03:13:19 PM »
@Gary: No, I don't have the Nvidia extensions, but I found the ones from ATI which are enabled. Where can I get the Nvidia extensions?

AAARRRGH!! You have an Nvidia graphics card! You absolutely MUST have the Nvidia extensions ON and any ATI ones OFF !!
All kinds of weird wrong stuff can happen otherwise - especially when you're trying to get an ancient graphics card to talk to and negotiate with a modern monitor! The graphics extensions - both the Nvidia and the ATI ones - are there primarily to "update" the hardware and enable it to work with / scale to various monitors, deal with Quickdraw, and all kinds of stuff.

This is no different than say, trying to drive a Canon printer with Epson extensions.

OS9 comes with two sets - one set each for ATI and Nvidia. Your Nvidia extensions should be in System Folder/Disabled Extensions.
You should have "Extensions Manager" which will allow you to disable the ATIs and enable the Nvidias.
If you don't, you can just find the ATIs in the "enabled" extensions folder and drag them to the "disabled" folder… then drag the Nvidias from "disabled" to enabled.
If you cannot find any Nvidia extensions in your system, you can get them from virtually any OS9 System Folder or download them from any OS9 System here.

The odds are excellent this will cure what ails ya. Let us know what happens.

Offline davidivjak

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Re: Monitor stays black after booting
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2019, 02:56:33 PM »
Thank you Gary,

I just checked it and there were the Nvidia extensions actually enabled, but not the ATI drives disabled. Corrected that now.
Unfortunately, it doesn't show any change.

When I go to the System Profiler, it would say for my graphics card:

Integrated graphics card

Type: display
card name: NVDA, Display-B
card model: -1
Card ROM#: not available
card revision: not available
card manufacturer ID: -1
video memory: 32 MB

Furthermore, I noticed that the color settings are reseting automatically after every boot up to 256 color depth instead of keeping it at 16,7 Mio. Found this pretty annoying all the time, but hadn't spent deeper thoughts on it.

Does this give some more detailed information about the situation of the driver / extensions for the Nvidia card? Is there anything wrong you could tell from these things?

Offline GaryN

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Re: Monitor stays black after booting
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2019, 04:30:57 PM »
You're a confusing kinda guy lol. Extensions on, extensions OFF, wax ON , Wax OFF.
It's simple: Nvidia card = Nvidia extensions ON, ATI extensions OFF.

I think I've got it, but you won't like it.

From Wikipedia:
…the DVI connector includes pins for the display data channel (DDC). A newer version of DDC called DDC2 allows the graphics adapter to read the monitor's extended display identification data (EDID). When a source and display are connected, the source first queries the display's capabilities by reading the monitor EDID block over an I²C link. The EDID block contains the display's identification, color characteristics (such as gamma value), and table of supported video modes. The table can designate a preferred mode or native resolution. Each mode is a set of CRT timing values that define the duration and frequency of the horizontal/vertical sync, the positioning of the active display area, the horizontal resolution, vertical resolution, and refresh rate.

Problem One: Your 27" monitor needs dual-link DVI to display its full resolution. The card cannot supply that.
Additional confusing issue: The card has a full set of pinholes, so you CAN plug a dual-link cable into it though the "extra" pins receive no signal.
Problem Two: You would think (note the italics) the monitor would just adapt itself to the incoming signal and scale to a viewable size, but evidently it won't.
Problem Three: The DDC-over-EDID signal (yeah, I know…arrgh!) also communicates the color resolution and such. So, since the monitor and Nvidia card aren't talking, the card keeps resetting itself to the "fallback" default: 640 x 480 @ 60Hz 256 colors. That's why the display goes black.

Remember, this all started just because you want to remove one monitor from your desk AND don't forget, you had NO trouble with the 24" single-link monitor. I have a 27" Samsung "Syncmaster 2770" that accepts the single-link signal from my stock ATI card in my G4 and scales it to full size.
I do NOT however, use it for film work. The pic, while generally OK would quickly drive me nuts for lack of fine detail.

I have no idea why your monitor won't "talk" to what is a standard DVI signal and at least display something.
It may (this is a guess) speak only DDR2 - which, although I would think that would be stupid, it wouldn't surprise me either. This is info NOT supplied in the manual (naturally) but would be typical of hardware-engineer thinking because after all, what kind of idiot would try to use something as old and obsolete as OS9 on a G4 in 2019? A real pro would certain have only the latest and greatest, right?

At the end of the day, honestly, if all you need to do to make everything work well for you is make space for two monitors (or find one that is more versatile) you're ahead of the game.

Offline refinery

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Re: Monitor stays black after booting
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2019, 05:15:50 PM »
here's an idea... what about booting it with the 24", installing VNC software, then booting it with the 27" connected, connect remotely via VNC from another machine, and change the resolution to something that will display on the 27"?
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Offline davidivjak

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Re: Monitor stays black after booting
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2019, 12:01:57 PM »
Thank you Gary for all the effort and patience with me  ;D

I see your argument, it would be the easiest solution to just use that 24" for the G4. But believe me, I have my reasons to ditch that additional monitor, as I have like 15 qm for my whole life.  :P

And why I am not satisfied yet is because it ACTUALLY WORKS. When booting the G4 with the Eizo S2431W connected, and then connecting it to the EV2736 without rebooting, there is an image (now also center-scanned in 1920x1200 as I found out how to do it in the monitor settings), it looks perfectly fine, just as I want it to be.
Unfortunately it's just the f**** booting problem.

Isn't there any way to tell the graphics card not to care if there's "no monitor" connected and just boot up properly?

here's an idea... what about booting it with the 24", installing VNC software, then booting it with the 27" connected, connect remotely via VNC from another machine, and change the resolution to something that will display on the 27"?

I get your idea here! Unfortunately the issue is, as mentioned before, the G4 won't even boot up into a working condition with the 27" connected.

Offline GaryN

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Re: Monitor stays black after booting
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2019, 03:57:31 PM »
Like I said…you're a confusing kinda guy. I recall your very first post you wrote:
"Then I just connected it with the 27" again while it was still running. Suddenly I had an image on the 27" as well, but it was distorted."

NOW it's:
And why I am not satisfied yet is because it ACTUALLY WORKS. When booting the G4 with the Eizo S2431W connected, and then connecting it to the EV2736 without rebooting, there is an image (now also center-scanned in 1920x1200 as I found out how to do it in the monitor settings), it looks perfectly fine, just as I want it to be.
So, here's where you're at: The 27" CAN display as much pic as the card can send, but can't or won't negotiate with the card automatically.
This leaves you with two options: Different monitor OR different card.
Different monitor …not what you want.
Different card… shooting in the dark because we don't know exactly what it is that the monitor sees as missing or incorrect.

I think (and when I do I often get it wrong but…) the monitor is wanting the DDR2 EDID protocol. I get this idea from the Eizo lit, where they endorse only using DisplayPort, MiniDisplayPort or Thunderbolt to drive it.

Try this: Under "Monitor Settings" in the Settings menu, find DCC/CI and turn it OFF. That may (or not) bypass the problem and allow the thing to just "read" the incoming signal and adapt. There's also something that "locks" the monitor config. Maybe THAT will help. Otherwise……

You'll have to harass Eizo tech support for awhile. Tell them you're trying to drive the damn thing with an "everyday" single-link 1920x1200 DVI signal, it won't communicate and is there any way to maybe store a preset or such that will bypass the need for the initial DCC/EDID…OR ????????

That's about it. I'm tapped out of ideas at this point.

Fingers crossed……

Offline davidivjak

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Re: Monitor stays black after booting
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2019, 12:58:07 PM »
Hey folks!
Here's a small update... I contacted EIZO support and they adviced me to update my system from OS 9.2 to 9.2.1 and then 9.2.2.
The update to 9.2.1 went well, but after installing 9.2.2 the system won‘t boot up at all anymore, just leaves me with this weird image:



What can I do now? Am I screwed?  :'(

Offline macStuff

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Re: Monitor stays black after booting
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2019, 04:56:59 AM »
the user swapped out a cinema display for another monitor that is incapable of producing the specified resolution at the set Refresh rate (hz) the display is the problem not the card;

he needs to reset his resoltion + refresh rate to a supported setting;

have you tried zapping the pram settings
?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2019, 05:15:07 AM by macStuff »

Offline davidivjak

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Re: Monitor stays black after booting
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2019, 06:37:19 AM »
Yes, I tried that already.
I installed the original graphics card (GeForce 2) again and connected it via VGA to the monitor. At least it is booting again now.
I also made a comparison:



On the left side you see OS 9.2.2 with the original GeForce 2. It is listed under PCI-Slot 1 (AGP).
On the right side you see OS 9.2 with the A74 (which I found out is a GeForce 4 MX). It is listed under "Internal video" and the System Profiler would not give further detailed specs about the card. Shouldn't this card also be listed in the same way as the original card?

Offline macStuff

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Re: Monitor stays black after booting
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2019, 08:18:50 AM »
you also need to have 64mb or more to support the video mode you are trying to achieve if my memory serves correctly.
the screenshot you posted says your GF4MX has only 32mb there was alot of variations of the geforce 4MX
some with VGA/ADC some with DVI/ADC
some with 32mb + some with 64mb

honestly just use the geforce2 with the VGA cable if it works it works
DVI output is definately a sharper clearer image however
if you need it then buy a Geforce4 card with more than 32mb ram or a Radeon 8500

is there a possibility someone flashed the geforce4 card to work on a pc?
its strange that it doesnt show up under AGP slot
if you have a pc with AGP Slot it might be worthwile to reflash it with its original BIOS for mac to make sure
but that may be above what you are able to accomplish here
« Last Edit: June 23, 2019, 08:29:57 AM by macStuff »

Offline davidivjak

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Re: Monitor stays black after booting
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2019, 11:04:03 AM »
Thanks mate!
Using VGA is not an option unfortunately as I need a proper image quality for scanning my film in PS7.
I found a Powermac G4 MDD with the Radeon 9000 installed, I think I will just go for that one and install the SCSI card from my Quicksilver instead of experimenting with other graphics cards and shooting into the blue.
Hope it will work with my Flexscan EV2736 then...  ::)
Will keep you updated!

Offline davidivjak

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Re: Monitor stays black after booting
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2019, 01:42:47 PM »
Hey guys,
just wanted to let you know the problem is solved.
Here's my mistake: The original graphics card in the G4 was a Nvidia GeForce 2 with 64MB, which I replaced with the next best card with a DVI output, in this case unfortunately a GeForce 4 MX with 32MB. So it didn't get detected as GPU and couldn't deliver a proper signal for my EV2736. Everything works good with a Radeon 9000 now. :-)
Thanks a lot for your support and patience with me. Highly appreciated!
Cheers!

Offline macStuff

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Re: Monitor stays black after booting
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2019, 04:37:41 PM »
as ive told the original poster many times;
will just reiterate for the benefit of anyone reading with similar issue;
 using any resolutions above 1680 x 1050 REQUIRES at least 64MB Video RAM
there are geforce 4 cars that have 64mb ram; but some have only 32MB ram
as video output resolution increased with time; so did Video RAM requirements;
these machnes + video cards date back to a time when these resolutions were unheard of even one or two mac models prior; video cards went from 16mb to 32mb to 64mb  requirements very quickly in the early 2000s time period
you need 64mb of ram minimum for high resolution output above 1680x1050 (or is it starting with 1680x1050?)
usually DVI requires a bit more ram than VGA

darth; maybe u can shed some light