Author Topic: Sawtooth w/Sonnet G4 1ghz - unstable OS9  (Read 1727 times)

Offline mikeyy00

  • Active Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7
  • New Member
Sawtooth w/Sonnet G4 1ghz - unstable OS9
« on: March 22, 2019, 01:04:47 PM »
Hi all,

I posted this over at 68kmla, but figured more eyes the better.

I had a bone stock Sawtooth G4/128/10gb/Rage 128. Popped in a Sonnet Encore (new old stock) 1ghz, 1000mb/120gb SSD/Radeon 9000. It boots 10.4.11 flawless. Can run games, video encoding, browsing, you name it. Zero issue.

Try to boot OS 9.2.2, and its flaky as eff. Freezes on the happy Mac screen half the time, 1-2 more reboots it'll make it into the OS enough where I can start moving things around, and perhaps try and launch a game, then it hard locks.

I've reduced the hardware back to stock, but left the G4 1ghz in, and basically have the same issue. My gut is to blame the CPU, but the only issue with that, is why does 10.4 run like a champ? You'd figure a bad CPU would be a bad CPU across the board.

I've made sure the firmware is the latest on the G4, 4.28/4.2.8 I can't exactly remember. There's no extensions or firmware patch for the Encore ST, but I did try applying the one for the Cresendo G4, no change. Reset PRAM, reset PMU, etc.. same thing.

Again, I want to blame CPU but I can't fathom why 10.4 works without issue.

Any ideas? This was an install of 9.2.2 done with the universal CD floating around, and I did try the 9.2 copy offered on here that works on unsupported Macs. Results are the same. OS9 is basically unusable due to the hard freezes.

Cheers.

Offline FdB

  • Moderator
  • Platinum Member (500+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 575
  • And then...
Re: Sawtooth w/Sonnet G4 1ghz - unstable OS9
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2019, 03:06:55 PM »
Seems to be several Sonnet upgrades popping up ‘round here lately.

You might want to pop your old processor back in (and assuming that you have OS 9.2.2 on another HD partition / or an additional separate HD)… then do a clean install of OS 9.2.2 with that original processor back in. THEN install the required Sonnet software, drivers, extensions, etc. (necessary for the Sonnet under OS 9) on that HD or partition - so that when the Sonnet is back in the machine all should then be hunky-dory.

I've forgotten which goes first, the Sonnet or the Sonnet software(s). Reading instructions can help. There is a specific order and instructions for OS upgrades. AND there’s also the question of which extension or firmware patch is necessary for your Encore. (I think I have a Crescendo running downstairs.)

If you’ve already tried all of this, nevermind. ::)

OS 10.4 may “already work” because of “considerations” made by Apple during the later builds/releases of OS X.

And if the above suggestion does not work… other “voices” will undoubtedly chime in here, very soon. ???
This Must Be The Place

Offline FdB

  • Moderator
  • Platinum Member (500+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 575
  • And then...
Re: Sawtooth/Sonnet cont.
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2019, 07:57:40 PM »
Here’s that Sonnet Encore installation pdf. complete with all the little-bitty details:
http://www.sonnettech.com/publicfiles/pdfs/pdf_onlinedocs/english/mac/encore_zif_2g_qsg.pdf

And of course, you’ve seen and read this attachment?
This Must Be The Place

Offline refinery

  • Gold Member (200+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 215
Re: Sawtooth w/Sonnet G4 1ghz - unstable OS9
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2019, 06:42:14 PM »
Sawtooth isnt a ZIF machine. not sure if that firmware is still applicable.
G4/MDD 1.42 (9), G4/GB 500DP (X), Beige G3 400 (upgraded) (9), PBG4Ti 1Ghz (X), PBG3WS 300 (9)

got my mind on my scsi and my scsi on my mind

Offline FdB

  • Moderator
  • Platinum Member (500+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 575
  • And then...
Re: Sawtooth w/Sonnet G4 1ghz
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2019, 08:42:52 PM »
Good catch and a good point… however, the install / upgrade process is still very similar.
The Crescendo (ZIF) here is in a 9500 and there’s an ST/G4 in a Quicksilver here too.  ;)

http://www.sonnettech.com/support/kb/kb.php?cat=316&expand=_a2_b77_b76_a1_b267_b171&action=b159
This Must Be The Place

Offline mikeyy00

  • Active Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7
  • New Member
Re: Sawtooth w/Sonnet G4 1ghz - unstable OS9
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2019, 09:12:03 AM »
I've followed the instructions to a "T", still the same issue.

Reinstalled various versions of 9, (universal 9.2.2, and that one floating around that works on unsupported Macs). I can't use the factory discs for this thing since it was 8.5/8.6 if memory serves, and the CPU states that it needs 9.2.

Pop the OEM 400mhz back in, and everything is golden. Still leaning towards something being off with the Sonnet.. which is a damn shame considering how much I paid, plus how much / rare they seem to be these days..

Might try my luck with a Dual 500. It's not like much under OS9 stresses a 500mhz single to be honest (since I'm not using it for productivity, just games), and anything newer would run on OSX, which utilizes the dual pretty nicely. Plus the duals don't seem to cost an arm and a leg.

Offline FdB

  • Moderator
  • Platinum Member (500+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 575
  • And then...
Re: Sawtooth w/Sonnet
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2019, 10:51:25 AM »
I don’t mean to question your thorough process but you did remove the Sonnet,
install the original processor, wipe the HD where OS 9.2.2 resides and then
do a clean install of OS 9.2.2 on that HD or OS 9 partition?

THEN,
following the Sonnet instructions from the last Sonnet link I provided above,
installed the appropriate driver and THEN the Sonnet itself…
following all instructions in that manual?

I know… redundant. Sorry.

But check, check and double check. As it seems to work just fine with OS X
(if I’m not mistaken from what you previously stated) it seems that there may
actually be no problem with the Sonnet and more likely it’s the actual install
or drivers under OS 9? Might be an “extensions conflict”.
See excerpt from Sonnet FAQ attached here, below.

If push comes to shove, and before you completely abandon it…
as a last resort, you could send it to me for testing.
But only as a last resort.
This Must Be The Place

Offline mikeyy00

  • Active Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7
  • New Member
Re: Sawtooth w/Sonnet
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2019, 08:08:08 PM »
I don’t mean to question your thorough process but you did remove the Sonnet,
install the original processor, wipe the HD where OS 9.2.2 resides and then
do a clean install of OS 9.2.2 on that HD or OS 9 partition?
Sure did
THEN,
following the Sonnet instructions from the last Sonnet link I provided above,
installed the appropriate driver and THEN the Sonnet itself…
following all instructions in that manual?

I know… redundant. Sorry.
This particular model of Sonnet requires no firmware or drivers as per the install manual. That being said, yes I did try installing / uninstalling drivers/extensions/utilities from the other Sonnet products
But check, check and double check. As it seems to work just fine with OS X
(if I’m not mistaken from what you previously stated) it seems that there may
actually be no problem with the Sonnet and more likely it’s the actual install
or drivers under OS 9? Might be an “extensions conflict”.
See excerpt from Sonnet FAQ attached here, below.

If push comes to shove, and before you completely abandon it…
as a last resort, you could send it to me for testing.
But only as a last resort.
Yeah.. the thing has me confused for sure..

Offline FdB

  • Moderator
  • Platinum Member (500+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 575
  • And then...
Re: Sawtooth w/Sonnet
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2019, 11:35:12 PM »
Okay… here’s a thread where a possibly similar problem was chased down.
Read through this and just maybe - it may be of some use to you… ???

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,4281.msg33096.html?PHPSESSID=13e85pfnqgsth6ch9d42ltk404
This Must Be The Place

Offline GaryN

  • Platinum Member (500+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 1048
  • active member
Re: Sawtooth w/Sonnet G4 1ghz - unstable OS9
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2019, 12:00:27 AM »
I just re-read your original post. the OS9 does boot at least sometimes and then weird shit happens but OSX is fine.

I'm going to take an educated guess here and say you have an extension problem and its name is probably Quicktime.

Try an extensions-off boot (hold down Shift until you see "Extensions Off).
If if boots OK, use Extensions Manager to select "9.2.2 Base only" and see what happens.
If it boots, re-enable the Quicktime extensions. Reboot, if the problem comes back - that's it.

If so, then go to Mac Garden and download Quicktime 6.0.8. I think that's an installer that will overwrite / update what's in your System……or not - you might have to delete 'n drag stuff into submission, I don't know for sure.

Like I said, it's a guess, but it's a good one.


Offline mikeyy00

  • Active Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7
  • New Member
Re: Sawtooth w/Sonnet
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2019, 07:19:54 AM »
Okay… here’s a thread where a possibly similar problem was chased down.
Read through this and just maybe - it may be of some use to you… ???

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,4281.msg33096.html?PHPSESSID=13e85pfnqgsth6ch9d42ltk404

Tried both the quicktime update and the linked sonnet Apple CPU extension. Same thing. Freezes roughly 30? seconds after the start of the 9.2 screen. But not always 30 seconds. Sometimes immediately after hitting the desktop, sometimes I can get a game to fire up, and about 10-20 seconds later it'll freeze.

Offline mikeyy00

  • Active Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7
  • New Member
Re: Sawtooth w/Sonnet
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2019, 07:21:44 AM »
Okay… here’s a thread where a possibly similar problem was chased down.
Read through this and just maybe - it may be of some use to you… ???

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,4281.msg33096.html?PHPSESSID=13e85pfnqgsth6ch9d42ltk404

Tried both the quicktime update and the linked sonnet Apple CPU extension. Same thing. Freezes roughly 30? seconds after the start of the 9.2 screen. But not always 30 seconds. Sometimes immediately after hitting the desktop, sometimes I can get a game to fire up, and about 10-20 seconds later it'll freeze.

Extensions off, it'll go for a few minutes (sometimes) but still freeze. Same story booting any OS9 type CD.

I had to chuck in the stock CPU to even get 9 installed. But 10.4 installed/updated/runs with zero issue on the Sonnet.

Offline FdB

  • Moderator
  • Platinum Member (500+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 575
  • And then...
Re: Sawtooth w/Sonnet G4 1ghz - unstable OS9
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2019, 09:30:41 AM »
Anyone else care to comment or take a shot at this one?

Was really hoping Gary’s Quicktime fix (and everything else that’s been thrown at it) would miraculously solve this. Now beginning to think about the Sonnet itself and whether or not the heatsink paste needs removal /replacing… but if so, then why does it function stable under OS X?  And if it crashes/ freezes on start up in OS 9 - it hasn’t had time to actually warm up to the point where this might be the issue?

I’d replace the paste anyway.

And at this point, I’d be strongly inclined to install the Sonnet in another basic, “stripped” G4, running OS 9.2 - just to see if the Sonnet would function stable there… as if some software (games) or hardware, resident on the Sawtooth is causing this weirdness.

The ONLY other thing that comes to mind is the removal of the Multiprocessing file from the System folder… but that’s me, now grabbing at straws. ::)
This Must Be The Place

Offline DieHard

  • Administrator
  • Platinum Member (500+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 1680
Re: Sawtooth w/Sonnet G4 1ghz - unstable OS9
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2019, 10:36:03 AM »
I had a bone stock Sawtooth G4/128/10gb/Rage 128. Popped in a Sonnet Encore (new old stock) 1ghz, 1000mb/120gb SSD/Radeon 9000. It boots 10.4.11 flawless. Can run games, video encoding, browsing, you name it. Zero issue.

Try to boot OS 9.2.2, and its flaky as eff. Freezes on the happy Mac screen half the time, 1-2 more reboots it'll make it into the OS enough where I can start moving things around, and perhaps try and launch a game, then it hard locks.

I've reduced the hardware back to stock, but left the G4 1ghz in, and basically have the same issue. My gut is to blame the CPU, but the only issue with that, is why does 10.4 run like a champ? You'd figure a bad CPU would be a bad CPU across the board.

Again, I want to blame CPU but I can't fathom why 10.4 works without issue.

Cheers.

OK, I was waiting to see where this went, but let's mention a few things...

At this point we are dealing with very old hardware, I know I deal with it everyday, intermittent issues can get very baffling but the first and absolute first thing to do is to run an extended hardware test to rule out (or pinpoint) RAM, logic board, and CPU.  Just because it has "Not frozen in OS X" does not mean that all is well with that hardware; it may be a numbers game and you just got lucky when running OS X.  Testing hardware by running different OS versions is NOT testing hardware at all. Run a bootable diagnostic with an extended memory test (2 hours or more)

Suggestion:
Get the baseline hardware test done, if it passes, run it is OS X for a week or so and confirm stability. At this point, install OS 9 (the lowest version the CPU upgrade will take) and slowly move up to 9.2.2

Offline macStuff

  • Platinum Member (500+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 1398
  • http://www.OldschoolDAW.com
    • OldschoolDAW.com
Re: Sawtooth w/Sonnet G4 1ghz - unstable OS9
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2019, 12:02:20 PM »
havent read the thread but based on the title alone i would suggest trying to use the apple system restore disks for the sawtooth with AGP graphics

i have asked the site admins to post these images repeatedly for GOD knows how long; i have no idea why they choose to repeatedly refuse; but here they are on my personal mediafire account : http://www.mediafire.com/folder/calxk3ticozkv/AGP_sawtooth_G4_restore

this folder contains 3 cd images; one for installing os8.6
and 2 for installing 9.0.2; u dont need both they are both the same basically; one is for installing from scratch and the restore uses ASR to restore the hd to its original shipping configuration.
these are the original cd images that the sawtooth units shipped with;
i purchased them from Ebay and had them shipped to my house + imaged the cds to make them available to the public

Offline macStuff

  • Platinum Member (500+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 1398
  • http://www.OldschoolDAW.com
    • OldschoolDAW.com
Re: Sawtooth w/Sonnet G4 1ghz - unstable OS9
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2019, 12:09:21 PM »
https://web.archive.org/web/20030604040845/http://www.sonnettech.com/product/encore_stg4.html

"OS 9.2 may be required to perform Apple firmware updates"
its confusing because they call this software encore/ZIF and dont specifically make reference to "encore/ST"
perhaps there is a different firmware patch for the encore/ST? but you would think they would have had it posted publicly by 2005+ perhaps they refer to the encore/ST as simply "encore" ? *shrug*
in this line it seems that way:

Supports System Software:
•      System 7.1.2 - Mac OS 9.1 (9.2.2 for Encore)*

v1.4.6 https://web.archive.org/web/20010815075923/http://www.sonnettech.com/downloads/proc_upgrds_sw.html
v1.4.7 https://web.archive.org/web/20020202140331/http://www.sonnettech.com/downloads/proc_upgrds_sw.html
v2.0 https://web.archive.org/web/20021014163900/http://www.sonnettech.com/downloads/proc_upgrds_sw.html
v2.0.2 https://web.archive.org/web/20030605075016/http://www.sonnettech.com/downloads/proc_upgrds_sw.html
v2.0.3 https://web.archive.org/web/20030720013630/http://sonnettech.com:80/downloads/proc_upgrds_sw.html
v2.3.1 https://web.archive.org/web/20070806231727/http://sonnettech.com/downloads/proc_upgrds_sw.html
v3 https://web.archive.org/web/20070806231727/http://sonnettech.com/downloads/proc_upgrds_sw.html

i would try to start with 2.0.2 and keep using the newer update till u find one that works? sequentially
of course ensuring that you are patched up to 9.22; if u need the updates to patch up from the factory disks (which is what i would do) here they are http://www.mediafire.com/folder/ku8y7xxm5wwqe/os9_updates

are u using the video card that originally came with the G4? the RAGE 128 pro? if u do have it i would put it back in just to go fully back to original spec and take out any pci addon cards aswell during that process. again just telling u what i would do myself. you mentioned the radeon 9000; i hope this has nothing to do with the wrong radeon drivers? which is why i would go back to the rage128 pro untill you figure out the source of the issue.

i have experienced the same flakeyness on the AGP Sawtooth when installing using the wrong macos9 installation for the machine (ie a macos9 install intended for a pci g4, wrong macosrom file etc) which is why im all over sharing the original factory disks etc because i went thru this same bullshit many times which is why i dont mess around with this; i even make sure im using legit/real PC100 SDRAM and not PC133 downclocked to PC100.

i had ordered an encore ZIF and attempted to put it in a PCI graphics Yikes! G4 about 10 years ago and i ended up throwin it into a dumpster at 3am one night out of sheer frustration so i can relate :D lol
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 12:36:59 PM by macStuff »

Offline macStuff

  • Platinum Member (500+ Posts)
  • *****
  • Posts: 1398
  • http://www.OldschoolDAW.com
    • OldschoolDAW.com
Re: Sawtooth w/Sonnet G4 1ghz - unstable OS9
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2019, 12:33:34 PM »
http://www.sonnettech.com/support/downloads/manuals/encore_st_g4_no_sink_qsg.pdf
have u read this?

more info re: documentation from sonnet:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=602.0
except all the links are now broken
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 12:46:44 PM by macStuff »