Author Topic: No longer able to connect to network  (Read 3758 times)

Offline laserski

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No longer able to connect to network
« on: January 10, 2019, 03:18:16 PM »
I have a very interesting network issue with my Laser Engraving computer. It is a dual 1GHz Quicksilver machine running dual boot OS9 and OSX 10.5.

In OS X everything works perfectly. No issues. When booted into OS9 I get a self assigned IP address using ethernet. When I put in an old airport card (and select to connect via airport) it sees the various networks and lets me choose one, but rejects the password to connect.

In OS 9 I seem to have lost my connection to the network. This happened several months ago when I tried to print to a networked printer and I just lived with it, but it is starting to get irritating. It used to work fine, and I did not change anything (that I can think of).

I have tried restoring my OS9 system folder. No help.
I have booted from another disk with OS9. No help.
I have reinstalled OS9 to another disk and to the internal disk. No help.
I have reset PRAM, no help.
I have set up manual networking instead of DHCP. No help.
I reinstalled my CLASSILA browser. No help.
I reserved an address on my 5th generation Airport Extreme router. Connects fine in OS X, but does not show up when booted into OS9.
I have held a chicken at arms length with my left hand and swung it counterclockwise three times above my head before pulling out 5 pin feathers and throwing them over my left shoulder, and it worked! (Just kidding, no help.)

I always get the same self assigned (169.x.x.x) IP address in OS9 but it always works in OSX. That tells me the hardware and cable are OK, but just to be sure I tried another cable, no help.
I replaced the ethernet switch I plug that machine into. No help.
I was able to connect with the original cable when using a old iBook booted into OS9 with no issues.

Thoughts?

Offline devils_advisor

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Re: No longer able to connect to network
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2019, 03:45:12 PM »
Check the cable or better test with another cable. Then check your router. Type manually in the settings. This is what I would try first. Even if you replaced the switch there seems to be no way to the router. Another issue could be your router is trying to give you a ip that has been assigned to another machine and will result in a self assigned ip. Had that too.

Offline laserski

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Re: No longer able to connect to network
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2019, 03:48:15 PM »
Check the cable or better test with another cable. Then check your router. Type manually in the settings. This is what I would try first.

Thanks, have done all that with no improvement.

Offline devils_advisor

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Re: No longer able to connect to network
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2019, 03:49:45 PM »
Assigned manually everything including gateway?

Offline miracman

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Re: No longer able to connect to network
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2019, 06:06:00 PM »
Hi there laserski,

     I've been surfing around here in the last few days like a tourist, really.  After hard working days, contemplating 3 G4s that need attention...

     Basically put; I wish I could help in a better way by unplugging screens and boot one of the old beasts and see if I remember well something that was obvious 10-15 years ago.  But hey, it's beer time after work...  so it's just a "my two cents" moment, before my next break during which, yeah, I'll at least have one hooked up and ready to kick ass using a recent classilla and so on...

     OK... so..  two cents.  When you say:
Quote
In OS 9 I seem to have lost my connection to the network. This happened several months ago when I tried to print to a networked printer and I just lived with it, but it is starting.....
,  this points to AppleShare / AppleTalk etc.  So, I'd say, make sure that you are sure that your TCP/IP panel is set to 'Ethernet' and not to 'AppleTalk' (or something else).  Then you can re-select your option of choice (which seems to be be the auto-assigned DHCP thingy).  In a case like this, trashing the preference file from one of the three (tcp/ip, AppleTalk, AppleShare) would seem less obtrusive than going through all that you went through.

    I can't help at all with the airport part of your thread. 

    I hope it doesn't sound too obvious or silly...  I was reading this and it reminded me of a few awkward moments I did have with AppleTalk. 

Good luck :)


[edit]  If you are sure about the hardware parts, just make your computer talk to your router (browse your router IP). If that doesn't work, explain furthermore what is happening on your side.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 06:24:02 PM by miracman »

Offline laserski

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Re: No longer able to connect to network
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2019, 07:22:04 PM »
Thank you all for the suggestions.

Yes, I have tried setting everything up manually as well as using DHCP server. To be sure I was doing it correctly I also mirrored the manual setup in OSX. Works like a champ in OSX but not on the same machine in OS9. Yes, weird!

My printer driver is an IP driver. Appletalk is not needed, but I have tried connecting with and without Appletalk. Just for the record, Appletalk does not work either. No connection on the network is working, except I can see the names of the WiFi networks on Airport, but can not log into any of them.

I am unable to connect to the router from that OS9 machine when I type in the IP address. (Airport Extreme, 5th Gen) From another computer I get a error about not being able to connect to the server, which is correct for an Airport base station since by design you have to use the AirPort Utility to configure the router.

One other test I did since yesterday was push the small RESET button on the motherboard of the computer. No help.

What are the names of the preference files that store the TCP/IP settings in OS9? I am curious what info they hold, and maybe to delete them.

Thanks everyone!

Offline miracman

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Re: No longer able to connect to network
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2019, 10:01:53 AM »
Hello,

I was under the impression that you were trying to connect the easiest way (ethernet to the router; possibly with nothing else connected as a start), not through Airport.  And from there talking to the router with a browser...

As for the Preferences file; I was looking at a french install and it's called "Préférences TCP/IP".  So it's probably something quite simple like "TCP/IP Preferences"  (System Folder/Preferences/)  I thought to point towards AppleTalk because you might have the Chooser still selecting a remote printer.. through AppleTalk.. and so on up to TCP/IP.

Good luck!

Offline ovalking

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Re: No longer able to connect to network
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2019, 02:40:44 PM »
You say you tried setting up IP manually.
What settings did you use?
Can you ping your router?

For the Airport issue, it seems like you can't get passed the security. Have you tried turning it off on the router (just for the purposes of testing)?

Offline laserski

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Re: No longer able to connect to network
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2019, 02:55:01 PM »
I really don't care if it works on ethernet or on airPort, as long as it works on one or the other. It was set up and working on ethernet for years with no issues. Than all at once it stops working on OS9 but continues to work in OS X 10.5.

In the OS9 TCP/IP control Panel I selected ETHERNET, USING DHCP SERVER, entered the router address as 10.0.1.1 (Which is what it is). When that did not work I entered MANUAL mode, typed in the IP address of 10.0.1.96, subnet of 255.255.255.0, router of 10.0.1.1, name server of 10.0.1.1. These settings DO work in OS X on that machine.

This should work, but on this machine it does not. I recently found out about another Quicksilver Mac that is available locally. I may buy that and move my HD and SCSI card, serial port, etc. into the new machine and give that a try.

Thanks for any ideas!


Offline ovalking

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Re: No longer able to connect to network
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2019, 12:52:26 AM »
OK, those settings look sensible, so it is puzzling.

I trust 10.0.1.96 is not in use by anything else.

Don't forget to check the options button.... make sure TCP/IP is set to active.

You still don't say if you can ping your router.

Can you ping any other device on the LAN, or see any other Appletalk device?

Does Apple System Profiler, Network Overview section offer any clues?

You could try removing  the preferences files:
TCP/IP Preferences
AppleShare Prep
AppleTalk Preferences
You can put them back if the action doesn't help.



Offline GaryN

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Re: No longer able to connect to network
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2019, 02:45:46 PM »
I'm with Ovalking on this.

When this kind of illogical stuff happens, the first step is almost always to trash the preferences and force the computer to regenerate new ones.

If you're leery of this, you don't have to actually delete the prefs, just get them out of the Sys folder or wherever they are so the System can't find them.

Offline laserski

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Re: No longer able to connect to network
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2019, 06:24:58 AM »
Thanks for the ideas.

I am not able to ping anything on the network from OS9. I cannot ping the OS9 machine from another machine.

Yes, 10.0.1.96 is only used by this machine. It works well at that address when booted into OS X.

Yes, TCP/IP is active. System Profile shows it as active but with the 169.x.x.x address. Appletalk also shows as active.

I tried removing the preference files and get a message that I do not have permissions to do that (Yes, from OS9). So i booted into OS X and removed those preferences and then rebooted into OS 9, but still no help.

Interesting that it says I do not have permission. It is NOT locked according to the GET INFO panel. Weird. How can this be? It is the only account in OS 9. Why is OS 9 preventing me from removing those items? Granted, I did remove them using OS X, but that sounds like a clue.

Thoughts?

Offline GaryN

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Re: No longer able to connect to network
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2019, 04:20:28 PM »
I tried removing the preference files and get a message that I do not have permissions to do that (Yes, from OS9). So i booted into OS X and removed those preferences and then rebooted into OS 9, but still no help.

Interesting that it says I do not have permission. It is NOT locked according to the GET INFO panel. Weird. How can this be? It is the only account in OS 9. Why is OS 9 preventing me from removing those items? Granted, I did remove them using OS X, but that sounds like a clue.

Thoughts?
I suspect you have, somewhere along the line, dragged or somehow interchanged a pref file to or from OSX. What??
What I mean is: In OS9, there are sharing permissions. In OSX, there are sharing and UNIX ownership permissions.
OSX can and does set and reset permissions all the time in ways that OS9 cannot comprehend.
There is a constant hazard with dual-boot systems where the disk utilities get to be at odds with each other.
I've recommended here many times to set both Time machine and Spotlight in OSX System Prefs to prevent them from accessing ANY OS9 volumes.
I have no idea exactly how you found yourself with an OS9 pref file that you lost ownership of in OS9 but since you were able to easily delete it in OSX it probably did become "owned" by OSX somehow.

What's important about that is that it was also unable to be changed, updated, revised in any way by OS9, meaning even if you could get the issue solved, the solution probably wouldn't stick.

Now: Let's go back to the actual, original problem.
You used to be able to access the network in OS9 - now you can't.
You used to be able to access the network in OSX - now you still can.

You said in the first post that this all "happened" when you tried to print to a networked printer.
I think it's more likely it happened before then and that's just when you noticed it.

Here's what you need to have working to reach your LAN (which is basically your router)
In the TCP/IP panel: Connect via Ethernet; Configure using DHCP server
  This should give you the same addresses as shown in OSX…router 10.0.0.1; subnet 255.255.255.0; IP address = same as in OSX
  YOU ALSO NEED: Active in System Extensions: Apple Enet; Open Transport 2.8.1 AND Open Transport ASLM Modules 2.8.1
  AND: Appletalk must be off.
  AND: An updateable TCP/IP Prefs file in System Preferences - After you check everything in the TCP/IP panel, this prefs file should show "Last date modified" as TODAY and the time

My best guess is Open transport is inactive…maybe……?

IF by some chance this works (it should, fingers crossed) The very next time you boot OSX, immediately go to System Preferences/Spotlight and prevent it from indexing the entire OS9 volume. Then do the same thing to Time Machine - select Do Not back up OS9 volume.

The objective is to keep all of the little UNIX-based notes Spotlight and TM write in the directory area of the volumes from confusing OS9, because eventually, OS9 Disk Utility will try to "repair" that stuff it doesn't understand (and it never heard of UNIX or OSX so it doesn't understand it). When that happens, the next time you boot OSX, IT will see the OS9 utility changes as errors and RE-fix it…then back and forth and back and forth until stuff is too corrupt to fix…period.

Spotlight and TM are the culprits - lock them out from the OS9 volume and everybody's happy.
Lastly, it's prudent to NOT just copy stuff from OSX to OS9 while in OSX. You're much better off booting OS9, then fetching those things from the OSX volume. That will help prevent permissions problems where you suddenly can't move or delete a file in OS9 that came from OSX.

Good luck. I gotta go to the bathroom…

Offline DieHard

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Re: No longer able to connect to network
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2019, 05:35:43 PM »
Quote
Good luck. I gotta go to the bathroom…

Just when things were getting good... one wonders what gems that Gary would have bestowed only to gone forever because nature called :(

Offline GaryN

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Re: No longer able to connect to network
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2019, 12:00:44 AM »
True…some of my very best work goes down the shitter.

Offline laserski

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Re: No longer able to connect to network
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2019, 03:39:09 PM »
Quote
Good luck. I gotta go to the bathroom…

Just when things were getting good... one wonders what gems that Gary would have bestowed only to gone forever because nature called :(

So I spent 4 hours on this issue today and I am really not making any progress.

I picked up another Dual 1GHz Quicksilver machine locally to test with. It has the exact same issue (no network connection in OS9) as my main machine, even with a freshly formatted HD and a new install of 9.2.2. So I got out my 500MHz iBook G3 and tested again and it works just fine using ethernet and OS 9.2.2. I made doubly certain I was not on Airport. Amazing.

I noticed that the iBook has Open Transport 2.8.3 AND Open Transport ASLM Modules 2.8.3 instead of 2.8.1. I copied those files to a USB flash drive and updated the test QS machine (it had 2.8.0) with no help.

Wondering how this could be? I noticed my Airport Extreme Router is a couple of versions behind in firmware, but the iBook works, so not sure if I want to go down that rabbit hole since the firmware version I am on has been working perfectly for several years. I may dig out an old Digital Audio G4 I have to test later, but am not sure if the results will help shed any light on the issue anyway.

Stuck!

I will have to mull this over for a few days. Logic is failing me...


Offline GaryN

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Re: No longer able to connect to network
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2019, 04:58:06 PM »
So I spent 4 hours on this issue today and I am really not making any progress.
Actually, I think you did. To wit:
I picked up another Dual 1GHz Quicksilver machine locally to test with. It has the exact same issue (no network connection in OS9) as my main machine, even with a freshly formatted HD and a new install of 9.2.2. So I got out my 500MHz iBook G3 and tested again and it works just fine using ethernet and OS 9.2.2. I made doubly certain I was not on Airport. Amazing.

I noticed that the iBook has Open Transport 2.8.3 AND Open Transport ASLM Modules 2.8.3 instead of 2.8.1. I copied those files to a USB flash drive and updated the test QS machine (it had 2.8.0) with no help.
I wasn't there, so I'm deducing this from your reply (very thorough by the way - that's great!).

Try this on for size:
Your G3 works!
Another completely different Quicksilver does not work. Why?
    >>>>> "It has the exact same issue (no network connection in OS9) as my main machine, even with a freshly formatted HD and a new install of 9.2.2."

* Is that fresh install be from the same source as the install(s) you've been using on the original Quicksilver? If so, that OS may contain corrupted files or simply have another necessary extension inactive.
You didn't mention "Apple Enet" that I said has to be active - is it?

I should have been clearer about the Open Transport stuff - 2.8.0 is probably OK - you should just have the latest revs you can find, so 2.8.1 is good - 2.8.3 is better but that's probably NOT the problem.

What you need to do now is compare the System Extensions on the working G3 line by line with the ones on a non-working G4.
Somewhere in there is one missing or corrupt or something and that issue is present in the 9.2.2 you're using for "fresh" installs.

………or not. Again, I wasn't there and this is just my best guesswork.  I DO know that you're close…really close.

Offline ovalking

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Re: No longer able to connect to network
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2019, 01:02:36 PM »
From your reports, the Mac is behaving as if no network is connected at all.

Do you have an extra ethernet card installed? Wondered if you were configuring one, but connected to the other.

Also, did you get Appletalk working? If yes, then that probably eliminates hardware issues.

Offline macStuff

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Re: No longer able to connect to network
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2019, 02:36:42 PM »
just because it gets a self assigned ip doesnt mean u cant manually set the ip yourself afterwards

i have had that problem many times i swear its easily circumvented by entering gateway, ip, + subnet mask

i have a quicksilver 933 (2002) here i can try to plug in to take a look

Offline laserski

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Re: No longer able to connect to network
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2019, 07:10:13 AM »
Thanks everyone for your ideas!

I am out of town since my daughter is giving birth to our 4th grandchild. I will be back at some unknown future date to continue this quest for truth, goodness, and the American Way!

Keep those ideas coming...

Offline mrhappy

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Re: No longer able to connect to network
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2019, 08:30:30 AM »

Good luck. I gotta go to the bathroom…

Isn't that where you guys do most of your 'surfing'??? ;D ;D

Offline Europa

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Re: No longer able to connect to network
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2019, 06:12:52 PM »
My G4 is having the same issue. I noticed it when I was trying to transfer something over FTP and it wouldn't connect to my MacBook like it normally does. I checked in the TCP/IP control panel and sure enough, it had a self-assigned IP address. I use an Airport card and it has worked flawlessly up until now, so I don't know what is up with it. If there is any information I can provide about my machine or what is running on it to help with finding a solution, I'd be happy to provide it. Nothing significant has changed in my setup between the time when it did work and now.

On a side note, I have Mac OS 10.4 also installed on here, but the disk is partitioned and I have set it up so that OS X cannot see OS 9. In OS X, networking is operating as it should.
Power Mac G4 Digital Audio (733 MHz, 1.5 GB RAM)

For those interested in 70s and 80s inspired electronic music, here is my SoundCloud profile:

https://soundcloud.com/user-385492180

Offline laserski

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Re: No longer able to connect to network
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2019, 08:24:38 PM »
I have found the issue that prevented me from connecting to a network in OS9. The Mac OS9 retail CD (version 9.2.1 with the big yellow 9) seems to be defective. Any computer that I used that CD to install MAC OS9 on would fail to connect to the network. I downloaded a 9.2.2 image from this website and used it instead and everything works great! In fact I also have dramatically faster graphics performance, and a second partition that would never mount in OS9 (it worked fine in OSX) now mounts and works in OS9 as well. AMAZING!

Thanks to all of you for your troubleshooting help and thanks to all those that run the website for providing the 9.2.2 image that I used.

Laserski

Offline Europa

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Re: No longer able to connect to network
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2019, 07:18:35 AM »
I have found the issue that prevented me from connecting to a network in OS9. The Mac OS9 retail CD (version 9.2.1 with the big yellow 9) seems to be defective. Any computer that I used that CD to install MAC OS9 on would fail to connect to the network. I downloaded a 9.2.2 image from this website and used it instead and everything works great! In fact I also have dramatically faster graphics performance, and a second partition that would never mount in OS9 (it worked fine in OSX) now mounts and works in OS9 as well. AMAZING!

Thanks to all of you for your troubleshooting help and thanks to all those that run the website for providing the 9.2.2 image that I used.

Laserski

I don't know if I used that exact CD (I downloaded it from WinWorld), but I do know it was 9.2.1. What website did you download the 9.2.2 image from and would using Conflict Catcher to migrate extensions and such over to the new system folder reintroduce the issue?
Power Mac G4 Digital Audio (733 MHz, 1.5 GB RAM)

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Offline macStuff

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Re: No longer able to connect to network
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2019, 08:19:31 AM »
yes please share the exact link that you downloaded this *BAD* image from... so that others can be saved from the same ill-fate

Offline laserski

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Re: No longer able to connect to network
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2019, 08:59:20 AM »
To be clear, the image that worked for me came from the MacOS9Lives website. "Mac OS 9.2.2 Universal Install.iso" is the name of the download. I installed it on my test machine and then copied over the files to the work machine. I did this in OSX and then made sure to set permissions on the entire OS9 system folder so that EVERYONE could READ & WRITE (applied to enclosed items as well). I had to do it this way to preserve some critical settings in my current System folder that have to do with the laser engraver this machine is used with. Otherwise it would probably be best to just reinstall a brand new folder and delete the old one. If I do that (I have tried in the past) it wipes out some critical information regarding several programs that are needed for the laser to work.

The partition that would not previously mount started life way back on a different machine that could not address more that 128GB partitions. This dual 1GHz machine can, but the partition still never mounted in OS9 until now.

The 32 bit color performance is now so much better that before as well. Previously I was in the habit of switching to 256 color mode so that scrolling speed in Freehand would be acceptable. Now it scrolls just as good in 32 bit mode as in 8 bit mode.

THANKS!


Offline ovalking

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Re: No longer able to connect to network
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2019, 11:33:15 AM »
>I have found the issue that prevented me from connecting to a network in OS9. The Mac OS9 retail CD
> (version 9.2.1 with the big yellow 9) seems to be defective.

Aha!
Your previous posts said you were using 9.2.2.
If you try and use an OS that predates what the hardware requires, strange things will indeed happen!

Offline Europa

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Re: No longer able to connect to network
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2019, 01:48:03 PM »
Downloading the image from this site now. My PMG4 is a Digital Audio, but I figured a reinstall was worth a try and I don't feel like running the 9.2.2 update again. I'll report back when I get it installed.

EDIT: When I went to install it, it appears the networking is working fine now. This is strange, but I'm glad it's working again.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2019, 06:39:18 PM by RogerWilco »
Power Mac G4 Digital Audio (733 MHz, 1.5 GB RAM)

For those interested in 70s and 80s inspired electronic music, here is my SoundCloud profile:

https://soundcloud.com/user-385492180

Offline GaryN

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Re: No longer able to connect to network
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2019, 04:54:54 PM »
Hot damn! I was right on top of it and didn't know it! This is a perfect example of why it's so difficult to troubleshoot from far away.
One little detail left out or incorrect and suddenly you're going down the wrong rabbit hole.

I picked up another Dual 1GHz Quicksilver machine locally to test with. It has the exact same issue (no network connection in OS9) as my main machine, even with a freshly formatted HD and a new install of 9.2.2. So I got out my 500MHz iBook G3 and tested again and it works just fine using ethernet and OS 9.2.2. I made doubly certain I was not on Airport. Amazing.
Try this on for size:
Your G3 works!
Another completely different Quicksilver does not work. Why?
    >>>>> "It has the exact same issue (no network connection in OS9) as my main machine, even with a freshly formatted HD and a new install of 9.2.2."

* Is that fresh install be from the same source as the install(s) you've been using on the original Quicksilver? If so, that OS may contain corrupted files or simply have another necessary extension inactive.

What you need to do now is compare the System Extensions on the working G3 line by line with the ones on a non-working G4.
Somewhere in there is one missing or corrupt or something and that issue is present in the 9.2.2 you're using for "fresh" installs.

I was pretty sure there was something wrong with the "9.2.2" software.
Had the comparison NOT revealed something missing/disabled or laserski NOT realized he was reinstalling 9.1 instead of 9.2, the very next step still would have been a complete replacement of the System.
Yeah, I'm blowing my own horn. I've embarrassed myself enough in the past being wrong…