Quicksilver Thread!

[Lehnartz]

I have a handful of questions maybe someone can help me out with.

My 2002 Quicksilver 933 MHz came with the complete restore discs that load up both OSX and OS9.  You can dual boot from either OS.

I’m am still trying to decide whether to use that configuration or load only OS 9 using Universal file from this site.


Question Set 1
Does the restore discs default duel boot setup in any way slow down the performance of OS9 when it is running (and I don’t mean in “Classic” mode, I mean when it is booted in OS9)?  In other words, would only having OS9 present on the hardrive keep things snappier for some reason?

Does having OSX present just slow down the initial loading a bit but then have no drag on the system once OS9 is fully loaded?

Are there other advantages to having OSX present on this machine that I should take into consideration?


Question Set 2
I have seen conflicting advise about how to best format the SSD drives I plan on installing into this computer -- OWC legacy SSD.  Some have stated that any SSD has to be formatted in OSX to be stable and function properly, even if it is OS9 you want to run on that drive. Is this true? Wouldn’t formatting it using Apple Drive Setup V2.1 on the Universal Install OS9.2 CD available here be just as good?

What is the best way to format the two SSDs I plan on putting into machine.  I plan on using two OWC Legacy SSD kits. I was hoping to configure them as such...

Master Drive - 250G
Partition 1 =   120 G  -   OS, Applications, VSTs (softsynths, effects, ect)
Partition 2 =   120 G  -   All Presets for DAWs and VSTs and MIDI files.

Slave Drive - 500G
Partition 1  =  120G -  Samples (Drums, Bass, 8Bit, FXs)
Partition 2  =  120G -  Samples (Synths, Keys, Guitar, Other Instruments)
Partition 3  =  120G -  Recorded Audio
Partition 4  =  120G -  DAW Project Files,
Partition 5 =     20G -  DAW and VST Manuals. 


If I am using the Universal Install OS9.2 Install CD available here which has Apple Drive Setup V2.1 can I do the partitioning of the Master Drive as the first part of the install process?

Oh and Happy Easter and Passover everybody!!!

[FdB]

Universal OS 9 has latest/greatest updates and improvements over what might be on your original QS install discs. (Your original discs, circa 2002?)

Installing from original discs doesn’t set up separate partitions for OS X and OS 9 to reside upon... independently and “segregated”. (See possible problems / performance issues associated with OS 9 & OS X on the same single partition.)

Many maintain the advantage of having both systems “resident” in dual boot capacity (on separate partitions) for a number of reasons… installing OS 9 on the first boot partition and having X for other numerous reasons.

Have formatted SSDs in both ways mentioned, but have not determined if one way is better than the other. Whichever works best in your specific instance? Others may advise otherwise. Try both and see which works best for you and post your findings. Suppose that if you go OS 9 only, that maybe Drive Setup 2.1 might be best? <opinion

As for the SSD format / configuration questions and how best to partition the OWC Legacy SSDs. (Are there Master/Slave jumpers on these drives?) AND, the specific DAW related topics/questions, perhaps best answered by someone else here. (Invitation)

Yes, you should be able to use Drive Setup 2.1 to format / partition… unless it simply won’t recognize the drive(s) and allow such format / partitioning… in which case, you may be left with OS X’s drive setup.

Suppose much of this all really depends upon your choice to go all OS 9… or, w/ OS X also.

And a Happy Easter to you too (and all) as well.

[Lehnartz]

Thanks @FdB.

That steers me in the right direction. I will try the OS9 Universal and see how it goes.


 

[IIO]

max/msp says my 933 CPU would run at 55 degrees (celsius, that is)

is that okay?

[part12studios]

those are some great stats to compare systems.  I'm happy to say the IDE bridge to SSD worked out really well.  I still need to install the quieter fan but it's not a high priority right now.  I have the part I just need to psyche myself up to get deeper into the machine to swap out fan and I imagine in the process replace the CPU thermal paste (which i have some from another repair job).  I'm going to stick with the 867mhz cpu.  It is showing more CPU headroom with plugins in Digital Performer 3 which was nice to see, but i wouldn't say it's as 1:1 in improvement moving from the 450mhz sawtooth.  feels like maybe 25% faster, but the cpu clock speed is almost twice as fast, but at the price I paid for it, it was still time/money well spent. 

[DieHard]

I imagine in the process replace the CPU thermal paste (which i have some from another repair job).  I'm going to stick with the 867mhz cpu.  It is showing more CPU headroom with plugins in Digital Performer 3 which was nice to see, but i wouldn't say it's as 1:1 in improvement moving from the 450mhz sawtooth.  feels like maybe 25% faster, but the cpu clock speed is almost twice as fast, but at the price I paid for it, it was still time/money well spent.

If you are going to arctic silver it; replace it with a 933 single or Dual 1 Ghz while you are at it

[part12studios]

it's not just the CPU right? it's a board?  and does it have to come from a quicksilver to work? 

I see this one:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Power-Mac-Quicksilver-933-G4-933Mhz-CPU-820-1344-A-TESTED/233288174542?epid=1204738576&hash=item36510f0bce:g:CVwAAOSwlAZaVniR:sc:USPSPriority!02368!US!-1


but then the MDD board like this is 1ghz, but being that it's not from a quicksilver I imagine it doesn't work right?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-630T4386-1Ghz-G4-CPU-Processor-820-1497-A-630-4459-TESTED-FREE-SHIPPING/291973182109?epid=1007836547&hash=item43faf5329d:g:Zq0AAOSwEzxYUvKe


and this is a later model quicksilver I imagine and a bit more costly, but it's dual core which I understand does help vs a 1ghz single core?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/661-2591-CPU-Processor-Module-Power-Mac-G4-1Ghz-Dual-Quicksilver-2002-820-1324-A/273820635984?epid=1824570171&hash=item3fc0fb5350:g:plcAAOSwWm1cwPkz



the operation was mostly to replace the existing stock fan with one that's said to be quieter.  it's good enough for now which is why I've left well enough alone.  Replacing the HDD with an SSD was a big noise reducer, but the fan i still pretty noticeable. 

Caleb

[Borgmac]

I am restarting this thread because it has a lot of useful information.
If you want me to start a new thread, just let me know.
I am trying to upgrade my Quicksilver 733 MHz, motherboard RevA.
Got the opportunity to buy a motherboard (RevA) with a dual 800 MHz.
Unfortunately, not working. Try it with a single CPU 800 MHz, OK. I suspected the dual CPU board was faulty...
Did not want to test on my original motherboard (733 MHz) so found a cheap motherboard RevB with a single CPU 800 MHz, working well.
Today received another dual CPU board 800 MHz, test it on the RevB, not working 
I reset the PMU, but as soon as I put a dual CPU board, at startup, no sound or light on the power button. Fans and HD are working.
I should do something wrong, but what?
HELP 

[DieHard]

Comparing the "stock" 733 MHz to the "other" Quicksilvers....

OK, so it is important to remember that the stock "733" QS, as discussed here a few times, only had 256k "on chip" level 2 cache and no level 3 backside cache at all, which was really unheard of at the time. Even a 533 DA had 1 MB cache...

So it was not surprising that when used in a DAW environment, the 733 QS performed worse that the 533 DA !  It even felt unusually sluggish with graphic design apps also... the solution was obvious, you could take a CPU from a 733 DA (which had 1 MB of cache) and replace the QS 733 without any mods needed, of course, today, just find a cheap 933 QS CPU, you get 256k "on chip" level 2 cache, and 2 MB of DDR SDRAM level 3 backside cache. 

So the same machine will go from a geekbench of 372 to 550 (32% more power), most likely benefit even more in a DAW scenario since the cache directly impacts multi-track digital recording performance.

[Borgmac]

DieHard,
I already use a 800 QS CPU which gives a good boost, but why is the dual 800 CPU not working?

[GaryN]

Got the opportunity to buy a motherboard (RevA) with a dual 800 MHz.
Unfortunately, not working. Try it with a single CPU 800 MHz, OK. I suspected the dual CPU board was faulty...
Did not want to test on my original motherboard (733 MHz) so found a cheap motherboard RevB with a single CPU 800 MHz, working well.
Today received another dual CPU board 800 MHz, test it on the RevB, not working 
I reset the PMU, but as soon as I put a dual CPU board, at startup, no sound or light on the power button. Fans and HD are working.
I should do something wrong, but what?
HELP 

Saw your identical query on Facebunk - came here to check something and here you were too… so anyway:

There's no normal reason for your issue. All three CPU daughterboards in the QS are directly swappable.

THEREFORE:

You have managed to buy not one but two bad CPU cards… OR
Something you did during the swap is causing the problem.*
  * The startup symptom is weird. Assuming you own a voltmeter - and you shouldn't be hacking on a 20-year-old computer without one - you should check the Supply output voltages when you startup. It sounds like there might be a 5v logic supply problem… the fans and HDD both run on 12V so maybe they could spin up without anything else…??

SO……

What OS are you trying to boot? OS9 requires a Multiprocessing extension to be active although I would think (dangerous) that the boot would start and fail a little farther along.

You didn't want to test the unknown "new" CPU card on your Rev A mother.
Did you also NOT test the Rev B mother with your know-to-be-good single 733 CPU?

You see where I'm going here??

20-year-old stuff from where… fleabay?
You can only test by trial-and-error  and you can only test one part at a time. Otherwise you're spitting into the wind………in the dark. You have not 1, not 2, but three unknown "foreign" components.

You must verify them one by one. Put the CPU cards on your Rev A mother. If they work, the Rev B is bad. Don't worry… almost nothing that go wrong on a CPU card without leaving a mark can be bad enough to actually damage the motherboard.

Holler back.

[Borgmac]

There's no normal reason for your issue. All three CPU daughterboards in the QS are directly swappable.

Thanks for confirming this, I was not sure anymore.

The startup symptom is weird. Assuming you own a voltmeter - and you shouldn't be hacking on a 20-year-old computer without one - you should check the Supply output voltages when you startup. It sounds like there might be a 5v logic supply problem… the fans and HDD both run on 12V so maybe they could spin up without anything else…??

when waking up in the middle of the night 😳, I thought that the more probable answer to this double failure is the PSU that cannot provide the extra needed by the double cpu. I checked it before but I am going to do it again. Will probably not have time before Thursday 😡

What OS are you trying to boot?

Mac OS X for now but I do not even go up to that point.
To avoid other sources of problem, I have disconnected everything except fans. No video card, no RAM. With a single CPU board, I got the error sound as no ram is connected.
With the double CPU board, nothing.

20-year-old stuff from where… fleabay?
You can only test by trial-and-error  and you can only test one part at a time. Otherwise you're spitting into the wind………in the dark. You have not 1, not 2, but three unknown "foreign" components.
You must verify them one by one.

I actually have
Rev A with 733, original
Rev A with double 800
Rev B with 800
Double 800
I am not testing my original components, but, as you said, I have been doing trial and error with the others.
Rev A and B are ok with single 800
Rev A and B failed with both double 800.
That’s why I am going to test thoroughly the PSU voltage.
I’ll come back with the results in a couple of days.
Thanks for your help.

[Borgmac]

Actually it looks like the PSU is still pretty good…
Results are in green.

Then I tested with the single CPU 800 board.
Got the error signal, (no RAM)
P4 voltage 12.06
5volts at 5.20
CPU board at 12.05
Even if the dual CPU board is lowering the voltages a little bit, it is still within tolerance of 5%.
I was really hoping that it was a PSU problem.
I will try again with the RevA motherboard, but I am pretty sur I will got the same results.
Do I really have 2 faulty dual CPU boards???

[FBz]

Yes, very odd that you might have two faulty Dual 800 CPUs. But as the dual 800’s might be just a bit more demanding (sensitive) of your RAM… maybe clean all contacts on the RAM sticks with electronics contact cleaner OR 91% isopropyl alcohol & a cotton swab and then retest.

On only one machine and one motherboard FIRST.

BUT you should also VERY CLOSELY examine all of the pins on the CPU daughter cards (and the motherboard socket that they snap into). Look for bent pins, dust bunnies and any sort of oxidation or corrosion.

I’ve never (yet) had to clean such CPU connector pins - but I might consider VERY CAREFULLY and LIGHTLY using a very soft toothbrush or even a small art paintbrush with the alcohol or electronics cleaner... IF all else fails. And this of course, at your very own risk.

I have found bent CPU connector pins before.

Closely examine ALL of the CPU’s connection pins that you’re testing.

•If no change after all of the above… then time to put on your Opti-visor magnifier and very closely inspect the daughter cards for signs of any onboard circuit failures.

[Borgmac]

Thanks for the suggestions.
I had already look at the cpu daughter card small connectors. One was lightly out of position. I will anyway make another full control.
For the RAM, I am testing the board without any RAM in it, just trying to get the error sound at startup. I get it only with single CPU board, never with the dual CPU board. I will check anyway for any wrong aspect.

I am going definitively to check the daughter card for any defect.
Any hint on which component is usually faulty?
Any logical diagram of such cards available?
Thanks for your help.

[FBz]

Attached an image here of a QS DP 1GHz CPU that shows signs of overheating and failure of one of its’ processors. You may notice the darkened brown *burnt” area of the surround, on the left processor’s mount bed. This is definitely something to first look for on your Dual 800’s. (i.e. a baked chip)

As for the rest of the daughter card and other components… a very close visual inspection of everything is warranted… looking for signs of excessive heat on the board’s circuitry or failed, tiny individual components.

A logical diagram of the cards? None that I have… but search for one if you must.

Extremely close visual inspection is best, before going any further down the rabbit hole.

AND you might try testing all again (considering all that GaryN and DieHard have already mentioned here) and with at least one stick of RAM installed - in only the one chosen “test bed” machine.

[GaryN]

I was really hoping that it was a PSU problem.
I will try again with the RevA motherboard, but I am pretty sur I will got the same results.
Do I really have 2 faulty dual CPU boards???

True story
I live in Napa, CA
Watching the news this morning, the weathergirlperson said "no rain today…not a chance"
5 minutes later I heard a tapping sound. I looked outside and it was raining and hailing to boot.
Just because something seems unlikely doesn't mean it's impossible.
That you don't want it to be true doesn't swing the odds in your favor one bit.

Yes, it's not only possible, but it's really looking like you've acquired two bad dual 800's.

[Borgmac]

Thanks FBz.
I will only be able to put a picture tomorrow, but the thin plastic on top of the CPU holder, around it, has a couple of holes. The plastic has been torn or more probably overheated.
By the way, this plastic being at a level under the CPU, it is not in contact with the heatsink, so only cooled by the flow of air.

[Borgmac]

I will only be able to put a picture tomorrow, but the thin plastic on top of the CPU holder, around it, has a couple of holes. The plastic has been torn or more probably overheated.
By the way, this plastic being at a level under the CPU, it is not in contact with the heatsink, so only cooled by the flow of air.

Here they are!
What's your opinion, torn or overheating?
I am not too concerned by this as the heatsink should not touch the electronic components, being at a higher level than the CPU.
Do you agree, should I protect these holes?

[FBz]

In spite of the plastic tears, that thing looks like it’s never even been warm.

Keep at it.
No success, send ‘em to me for more testing and close examination…

When and if necessary.