Quicksilver Thread!

[refinery]

you could just lay it out flat next to the machine temporarily and connect it up and see if it turns on?

[FdB]

For that matter, might as well test the PSU already in the machine in the same way that the new PSU has been tested, to see if it shows “no voltage” as well… to “test the testing”, so to speak.

Evidently the original PSU was working… in order to power the fans and provide the noise that AlphaMac seeks to quiet.

Did the original PSU die, or is it slated to be replaced because of its’ fan noise? If it’s a matter of a bad fan in the original PSU, then maybe move the fan from the new PSU to the old one.

AND, if the Quicksilver is to be sequestered in another room as mentioned… what’s a little fan noise?

Unless it’s freakin’ screaming through the walls.

[AlphaMac]

@FdB My old PSU was dead. The other day I removed the fan and powered it with an adapter and it was hardly moving on its own. I had to push it with my finger. The short story is I came home one day and seen my mac off -- power it on and it shut off again 20-30min later. Tried again and that was it. My worry is if the logic board was damaged.

---

I tried the installation a few times. Nothing happened. Dead cold. So I opened the PSU as far as removing the circuit board a little bit -- don't worry I planned to short the capacitors with a neon bulb but when I measured them there was no voltage, even after plugging the unit in 20 minutes before. I don't think they're filling up. 

I also looked around for any burns parts. Nothing. Other than a small area on the circuit board with some slight discoloration everything looked ok, but what do I know. The odd thing was there was no dust at all when I blew it out. Maybe someone opened this unit already.

Anyways I was prepared for this. For any newbies reading this make sure you find a reputable seller or someone experienced in refurbishing PSUs. These units are getting old so the chances of something going wrong increases over time.

Time to move forward with the next plan.

[AlphaMac]

Does anyone know of this person's service for refurbishing PSUs? They have a pretty high rating.

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/REPAIR-SERVICE-Apple-PowerMac-G4-Quicksilver-Power-Supply-QS-API1PC12/141543772231?hash=item20f4aa9047:g:CRUAAOSwk5FUuUsM

Question: If I get the PSU fixed but the logic board is damaged, am I running the risk of burning the PSU? I might even get both PSUs fixed to keep one for the future.

[FdB]

Ah, you posted just as I was about to. Looks like Andy has raised his prices a bit….

Appreciate the explanation. Still wonder about you trying to solve fan noise in a machine that wouldn’t run… unless your PSU has just died very recently. But, no matter.

For PSU rebuild / refurbs contact Andy Cuffe ([email protected]) down in Austin Texas USA. He’s a very good guy and may even rebuild Quicksilver PSUs for slightly less than the MDDs. He did say back in November of 2017 …that he could offer members of this Forum a price reduction for his services.

And here’s an eBay link (provided by GaryN) for Andy’s services:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/REPAIR-SERVICE-Apple-PowerMac-G4-Mirror-Drive-Doors-Power-Supply-MDD/141030901102?hash=item20d618c56e:g:~RsAAMXQysxSAA61

If you’re now stuck with (2) bad PSUs, Andy might offer you a little for one of the dead ones. Ask him. And be certain to tell him that you're a member of MacOS9Lives Forum.

All of this, if you can’t find a good source for this service… up there in Canada.

Only other simple thing I might suggest at this point is to check continuity through the PSU’s fuse. But if the machine did start & run, only to then die later (never to boot again) then it’s most likely RIP… PSU.

I’ve two QS “spares” at present. One completely dead and the other one with a dead fan power circuit… or I’d simply send you one. My regrets. Do contact Andy.

And no, it shouldn’t damage the PSU if the logic board is toast.

[AlphaMac]

I had this unit in a rackmount covered with sound panels -- it was a hotbox, but it ran for more than a decade like this. Ha. So I never paid that much attention to the noise. Eventually it gave out. So that's when I decided to give it some love.

I'd rather fix this unit and use the old version of Pro Tools than commit to new software and hardware. The way things are going now everything requires an annual licensing fee. It's ridiculous and expensive. And than you have to deal with all the bugs and updates. The old Pro Tools ran flawlessly with no latency. For me it's worth to fix.

Thanks for the info. I'll contact him and see what he can arrange. I'm hoping he can switch out the fan with a newer fan too.

-AlphaMac

[AlphaMac]

Only other simple thing I might suggest at this point is to check continuity through the PSU’s fuse.

Where is the fuse located?

[DieHard]

Hair Dryer trick works on many bad QS Power supplies (search for it here or google it),

basically, leave the unit plugged in, heat the PS with a hair dryer for about 3 to 5 minutes via the back and obviously don't hold it is one spot too long on "super hot" mode; then try to power on, if you don't unplug the PS from the wall, it will then start on it's own; clients sometimes get 1 to 2 years out of a bad PS in this manner

some info here:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=566.0

[AlphaMac]

Dryer didn't work. I'm done with short term solutions. This PSU needs to be refurbished anyways.

I might get lucky and scoop a 800Mhz QS with Tiger installed. Then keep working on this G4 as a backup. Now I have to check if I can get a copy of Pro Tools for a mix/24 system and run it on Tiger, unless I'm able to wipe out Tiger and install OS9.

[AlphaMac]

I'll be purchasing a new G4 soon as a quick resolution to get production up and running. If I'm lucky I'll be able to swap out my old drive into a new G4 to retrieve some session files. I'm guessing this would only work with other G4 QS models, or can it work with higher models, say G5? I don't know.

I still plan to rebuild my current QS and experiment a bit, so I'll keep this thread going with updates.

After playing with the fans, in and outside the box with a power adapter, I'm convinced the internal steel case is pretty much an echo chamber that needs dampening. Just take a pen and hit the inside steel case of you'll hear it resonate at a high pitch. With the fans and wind blowing (moving air creates noise), all that noise is circulating inside the unit and mostly coming out the back. I'll keep you posted on some ideas I plan to try.

-AlphaMac

[AlphaMac]

Here she is. It's a B board. It was from a local seller. I drove as fast as I could when he told me it was a B board.

I just need to confirm if I can swap out this drive for my old drive. I read some posts online and it says this was only possible with OS9 as OSX and later versions need need to recognize hardware. Any thoughts?

I had my old G4 in a rackmount with sound panels around it — then it stopped working — so I never had the chance to study the noise. Now I can hear it running on the bench.

I didn't tear it down, but just to confirm that the fans on this unit weren't modified: my case fan and PSU fan are both blowing air out. I tested with a small piece of paper. Is that right?

[FdB]

Yes, fans do seem to blow weird... but if you've not changed anything, they're blowing correctly.

AND, just swap out the drives and try to boot it from your old drive. Should work. If not, it won't hurt anything. Just won't boot.

Only one HD in your old 733 QS? I ask only if the old HD was setup as a slave or a master. If there was only one drive, then chances are that is already setup correctly as a master.

[AlphaMac]

Man that worked like a charm. I switched the drives and it fired right up with no problems.

Now I have to figure out what internal drives to install and whether to go PCI or IDE.

-AlphaMac

[refinery]

tough call on that machine. the internal bus is only ATA5 (66MB) sec so you could get an IDE-SATA converter, or try to track down a OS9-compatible PCI SATA card on ebay. they pop up from time to time. I have PCI SATA cards in two of my OS9 machines and its very nice and fast.

[AlphaMac]

@refinery: I've been reading this post regarding PCIs on G4s http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,803.msg2903.html#msg2903

Does this mean no matter what I'm limited to 66mb/s whether IDE or PCI, or have other configurations exceeded this limit? I don't even know what my current 7200 HDs are transferring at. What's the best way to test it?

[AlphaMac]

I selected a bunch of case fans measuring around 90-110 CFM and then narrowed it down to SilenX and Noiseblocker. I might modify the 140mm to fit my 733mhz and use the SlienX on the 800mhz, although at 38mm wide it might be too tight to fit the case.

The dBA/CFM ratio implies the lowest noise per volume of air moved. In other words the lower the better. I'm a bit skeptical about the SlienX being so low — almost 50% below average. Maybe it is that good.

[refinery]

@refinery: I've been reading this post regarding PCIs on G4s http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,803.msg2903.html#msg2903

Does this mean no matter what I'm limited to 66mb/s whether IDE or PCI, or have other configurations exceeded this limit? I don't even know what my current 7200 HDs are transferring at. What's the best way to test it?

you're only limited to 66mb if you stick with the internal bus. If you go with PCI based solutions, its dependent entirely on the card, you could get an ATA-100, ATA-133, or a SATA-based (150) card.

The drives however are really the limiting factor. A typical 120GB spinner drive will probably not come close to saturating that connection. ATTO Disk Benchmark tools here:
https://www.atto.com/downloads/42#9

do include a benchmark tool, but to be honest I dont know if its limited to ATTO only cards. worth a shot I suppose. That would tell you if your existing drive is saturating that link or not.

[refinery]

The dBA/CFM ratio implies the lowest noise per volume of air moved. In other words the lower the better. I'm a bit skeptical about the SlienX being so low — almost 50% below average. Maybe it is that good.

Have you looked at Noctua fans? They are expensive but some of the best you can get for noise levels. I use them almost exclusively and they never disappoint (and they usually have 7 year warranties too... on a FAN!)

www.noctua.at

[AlphaMac]

@refinery: Thanks. I might go with SATA. I'm trying to find an internal/external PCI card to setup a swappable external drive for transferring files to my main computer. 

Noctua's dBA/CFM ratio is very low with SilenX and Noiseblocker, but for my use the CFM isn't high enough. I have PT pci/DSP cards that add  extra heat to my unit. If I was going for noise reduction in a stock G4 I'd consider this fan. I've updated the specs with Noctua.

[refinery]

well there's plenty of other models besides the ULN that are super quiet. I use the (now-discontinued) P12 @ 1300RPM in my MDD and also my Hackintosh and they are unbelievably quiet. They also give you in-line resistor packs to slow down the speeds if they are too loud for your taste.

i only keep pushing the noctuas because they have a very good reputation (not counting my own personal excellent experiences with their products) but I know other manufacturers have been accused in the past of woefully overstating their fans' performance. might be worth doing some googling to see how accurate those others are in their claimed cooling statistics. I know nothing about NoiseBlocker but I do recall hearing SilenX being accused of that in the past.

ive honestly been surprised Apple hasnt made moves to buy Noctua, their cooling tech is so well-made. It seems like the perfect match to Apple products.

regarding the PCI sata card, the only one I know of with both internal and external ports is the Seritek 1eVE2+2, but good luck finding one of those as they are long discontinued. However, you may have luck finding one with a compatible chipset that can be flashed. Check out the storage forums for more threads on those. Alternatively, if you found one with internal ports and arent too picky about frankensteining your machine, you could always use an internal sata to e-sata adapter cable.