Quicksilver Thread!

[part12studios]

 ok so firmware answer you gave (this is sitll a quicksilver specific question) where can i find the firmware update 4.33f2? 

I googled it and wasn't coming up with a clear link to something to download. 

I've never done a mac firmware update so i'm not sure if it's different than PCs... like Dells just had an EXE you'd run and it would reboot and do the firmware update.  I image apple made it pretty easy to do too. 

[part12studios]

ditto.. same situation.  looking for that 4.33f2 firmware as mine is older. 

[part12studios]

i saw those $30 models on ebay and such.. but i found this one too:

https://www.amazon.com/Kingwin-Adapter-Convert-Devices-Compatible/dp/B002SZDOM6/ref=asc_df_B002SZDOM6/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=309776868400&hvpos=1o2&hvnetw=g&hvrand=7310608804789218877&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9001949&hvtargid=pla-593018002274&psc=1#customerReviews

$10 a pop.. I need a couple, so that's a big savings.. any idea of this would work as well? 

[part12studios]

wow even this one for $5... free shipping..  but i suspect based on the pic with this one, it's for a 2.5" IDE HDD.. not a full sized one. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-HDD-Hard-Drive-DVD-PATA-IDE-TO-Serial-ATA-SATA-Interface-Adapter-Converter/272184686343?epid=1139547428&hash=item3f5f78b707:g:Mk4AAOSw1x1URGv2

[FdB]

That Kingwin ADP-06 bridge/converter (the first one mentioned above) works well. I've 2 or 3 of them in various machines / enclosures. However there is some question as to their use in a Quicksilver - where one must designate / assign the Master & Slave relationship (via jumper settings on the bridge - or the HD... in most cases) on that HD ribbon cable for having two drives present.

Say you want to use an SSD as your boot drive with your OS and other applications/software present there... and then you'd like to also have another drive in that second position on that same ribbon cable for music / etc. / file writes? The ADP-06 does not provide a jumper setting option. BUT with some SSDs and even some "platter" SATA drives they often have jumper settings on the drives themselves. So it depends... and this is why I mentioned the more expensive Addonics as that jumper setting option is provided on them. No worries.

rpschultz13 & refinery noted another (similar to the Addonics) yesterday for just under $20.00.

If no one else can say for certain about the ADP-06 concern in the Master/Slave scenario mentioned here, maybe I can re-visit (test it) again this weekend and get back to you. I seem to remember that there was a problem. But if you're only going to want one drive, go for the ADP-06 type. They're cheap and they do work.

[FdB]

Again, I am looking. Hopefully someone will respond with the answer that we seek.
If not, it looks like a possible "Quicksilver weekend" on tap here.

[FdB]

Well, I've got an 867MHz Quicksilver ("A"-type board) here that is not wanting to boot OS 9.2.2.
So with some OS updating on-tap this weekend, maybe that firmware update with miraculously
rear its' head/source?

[IIO]

Comparing the "stock" 7.33 MHz to the "other" Quicksilvers....

i dont know. however there there must be more models than all these websites show, because you can find many people claming that their 733 or their dual 800 (2001) would allow bigger disks.

[refinery]

apple used to have a page with all the firmware updates for each model on it.... i will try to find it.

[part12studios]

Where can I check on the board for what version it is?  Is it pretty easy to spot somewhere?  I think I have a revision A board based on this picture.. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/aeiawa7vuokykan/IMG_1310.JPG?dl=0

[FdB]

Where can I check on the board for what version it is?  Is it pretty easy to spot somewhere?  I think I have a revision A board based on this picture...

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,4905.msg35367.html#msg35367

[IIO]

u know whats weird, fury? the picture you posted shows the 933 having an "ATA 5" controller.

but according to the ATA specs, there should not be a standard prior to v6 having an 48 bit controller.

which the 933 has.

i bet this is some apple trickery which is causing the confusion here.

[part12studios]

i went through my profiler category by category and i didn't see where a mother board version was shown in the various fields.  is it hidden inside some s/n or other value?

Thanks,
Caleb

[FdB]

Have yet to test the “larger HD” claims of the QS “B” boards but did test various OS installs on the 867 MHZ QS with the “A” board, hoping that some OS X install or version of OS 9 to OS 9.2.2 would somehow provide that Firmware Update. No-go.

In the past, have seen references to other FU installers but now cannot locate a 4.3.3f2 version updater - BUT have found and updated to other FU versions in the past (mostly for Sonnet and Newertech processor upgrades) and do remember the old Apple page listing various FUs. [Thanks refinery… still looking for that here as well. Hope it is eventually found.]

After all the various OS test installs here last night with the original “A” board in place…  and only after finally installing a “B” board… did Firmware Version 4.3.3f2 actually make its’ appearance. I even tested with various 867 MHz processors.

Now, there is a very stable 867 MHz Quicksilver with 80 GB HD running OS 10.4 & OS 9.2.2 with an 867 processor manufactured in Singapore. (An earlier 867 processor - made in the US - was somewhat unstable in comparison.) Large HD tests - this weekend.

Currently… while the A or B boards are not specifically referenced in the Apple System Profiler or under the Hardware Overview in OS X on the QS - it’s probably a safe bet to assume that Firmware Version 4.2.5f1 signifies an A board while a Firmware Version 4.3.3f2 would clue one that a B board is present.

part12studios: perhaps it’s best & easiest just to look on the board for that A/B I.D. You’ve already found where that’s located. And those images I posted of the “white-tagged” 800 MHz DP QS… actually that's a 1 GHz DP processor. But it is on a “B” board.

Yes IIO, there were other Quicksilver “flavors” omitted from those two comparison images, earlier copy-pasted from everymac.com. https://everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/index-powermac-g4.html I was too lazy to provide them all.

AND that earlier image posted from Wikipedia showing the 933 with an ATA 5 controller… well it is from Wikipedia and subject to perpetual and possible correction… but, if this 867 QS now with a “B” board (with ATA 5 controller) does recognize larger drives…?

Well, there’s always a bit of possible trickery (and resultant confusion) to contend with, ehh?

Yup… weird.

[FdB]

Thanks again refinery. Still looking, here.

[mikeyy00]

Hi all,

Recently acquired a 533mhz Digital Audio model locally for almost free. Got it home, cleaned it up. Moved some parts over from my Sawtooth..and she dead.

Of course I didn't test it ahead of time.. doh.

I have extensive experience troubleshooting PC hardware, and to a lesser extent, Mac. It seems like the power supply is toast. I get no power, no clicks, no fans, no lights. Popping off the ATX style connector and shorting the green pin to ground doesn't turn it on either.

Does anyone know if there's a known easy fix for bad power supplies? i.e. a Fuse, a known IC that "always goes bad on those models"? I popped the cover off of the PSU looking for a fuse, but it's pretty damn cramped inside, and looks to be quite the process if I remove everything to troubleshoot.

I did try popping my sawtooth powersupply in. Judging by the pinout should really be the same minus the 28v support for ADC. There was a purple line on the powersupply that isn't populated on the DA.. other than that, it's the same pinout (minus the 28V stuff.. which I doubt would prevent it from turning on). It's doesn't do anything either. Shorting the green pin does cause the fan to spin, and I get a red light on the Logic board.. but no life.

So, I've ordered a logic board from ebay.. surprisingly cheap. However the power supplies, holy hell. They're going for $150-200. Long story short, does anyone know how to repair an existing power supply? Or perhaps have a line on a DA/Quicksilver one they'd like to sell me for a reasonable price?

[mikeyy00]

Looks like I need to also cut the grey wire, and add 3.3v to that if using a Sawtooth PSU.

Will try later tonight.. but if anyone has any tips for repairing the original I'm all ears.

[part12studios]

yea good point about firmware indicating version..   so why would i need the firmware update?  what is improved?  No one seems to have it, which is a shame, but i figure if it's just allowing over 128gb drives that's no biggie because i have no problem with a 120gb.. which is already 40gb more than my other G4..  and i've barely scratched the surface of those drives with the songs I've recorded so far.. 

it's like my Amiga 1200 days when I had a 300mb hd.. man i NEVER could fill that thing up..  well wait.. i still have that Amiga in the studio.. and yea.. still not full..

[ovalking]

For info, my Quicksilvers...

733: board 820-1276A, Boot ROM 4.2.1f2, original 40G HD
933: board 820-1342B, Boot ROM 4.3.3f2, 160G PATA HD which shows as 128G!

[Lehnartz]

Another Newbie here who is enjoying and following this thread.  I will be picking up a 2002 Quicksilver PowerMac G4  933 MHZ I just got on ebay this coming Monday and thus will be embarking on the same journey you are on in the coming weeks.  It was a “local pickup” only which is probably the reason it was available for the price it was. It has everything but the box; original monitor (17 inch Studio Display), keyboard, mouse, manuals AND install CD’s still in their bag (though I’ll probably be attempting to use the Universal OS9 first -- don’t really want OSX at all).

I will be putting into it a 250GB OWC Mercury Pro Legacy 3.5-inch IDE/ATA SSD (which I’ll partition as DieHard suggests -- 120GB for OS volume, 130 GB data volume), 1.5 Gigs of Ram, and a new PU and chassis fan.

Here is a page of someone who upgraded the fans on his Quicksilver and documented it in good detail (including photos). I though you might find it interesting.

http://www.thorburn.se/henrik/quicksilver/index.html

He decided to turn around the chassis fan so that it sucked air inward instead of discharging it. His logic being that, in his estimate, this fan was barley needed with his PCI slots unoccupied and with two other fans blowing air outward (the power unit fan and the heat-sink/CPU fan) the system would be better served with at least one fan bringing more air into the case.

I wonder what the experienced modders on this forum have to say about this concept?

Anyway, I’ll continue to follow your progress and I hope you keep sharing it.  I will most likely be chiming in with more questions of my own soon.

[Lehnartz]

Sorry, one mistake  -  The CPU/heat-sink fan brings air in.  His configuration is having two fans bringing cool air in (the CPU and chassis fans) and one taking hot air out (the power unit fan).

[refinery]

found it.

though according to the doc, there's no update for it.

https://web.archive.org/web/20080418104426/http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=86117


is it possible these are just small firmware variations to account for the different IDE controller on the later machines?

[GaryN]

I think most / all the old updates are HERE:  https://support.apple.com/downloads/macdesktops

They start with newer stuff but you can keep adding more results and slowly work your way back in time.

[GaryN]

So, I've ordered a logic board from ebay.. surprisingly cheap. However the power supplies, holy hell. They're going for $150-200. Long story short, does anyone know how to repair an existing power supply? Or perhaps have a line on a DA/Quicksilver one they'd like to sell me for a reasonable price?

This guy does good work and will rebuild your POS PSU for under $100

https://www.ebay.com/str/baltimora2000?_trksid=p2047675.l2563

[Protools5LEGuy]

https://support.apple.com/kb/DL1126?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US

[refinery]

https://support.apple.com/kb/DL1126?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US

not the right update:

Note: Power Mac G4 (QuickSilver) computers do not require this update.

[refinery]

I think most / all the old updates are HERE:  https://support.apple.com/downloads/macdesktops

They start with newer stuff but you can keep adding more results and slowly work your way back in time.

yeah looking through that page the only updates available for quicksilver models relate to hard drive firmware and optical disk burners.

[AlphaMac]

@part12studios If you're not using it more than a few hours at time you could step down to quieter fans with a little less CFM. The Noctua NF-A8 FLX is a good fan to explore at 29.7CFM. The SilenX too. I don't recommend going far below 30CFM for the PSU fan. Anything below 25CFM would be slowly cooking components. For the drive a SSD is a no brainer.

@Lehnartz I'm not sure what the point of reversing the airflow on the case fan is. The first thing that came to mind — being that it's the largest opening on the case — is that it would suck a lot of dust into the unit. Secondly, obstructing the suction side of the fan will create more noise, whereas obstructing the blowing side of the fan only slows the fan down a bit with no noise increase. Below is video.

https://streamable.com/tbe9b

I had a bunch of mod ideas when I started but realized the airflow direction is already optimized. So my goal became getting everything out of the way for air to flow as freely as possible. What helped a lot was enlarging the holes, eliminating the steel fan case, cutting out the steel PSU grill and the fan's rubber mounts. Each step reducing some noise. When you add it up it makes a big difference. The only mod I'm considering on my 733mhz is putting the PSU fan on the rear case, so it's outside of the PSU case — pushing air into the case and out through the rear port. This would keep a lot more noise inside the box.

I'm still amazed that this forum exists with new users joining. Before I joined I thought I was the only person in the world still running a G4 on OS9.

-AlphaMac

[AlphaMac]

I did a manual temperature log test today. I had the sensor right up against the back PSU port and made periodic observations. For what it's worth..

[IIO]

For info, my Quicksilvers...
933: board 820-1342B, Boot ROM 4.3.3f2, 160G PATA HD which shows as 128G!

weird.

[IIO]

Well, there’s always a bit of possible trickery (and resultant confusion) to contend with, ehh?

i always thought that the dual 1.0 was the only machine with 2 possible controllers (and that you can tell it from the serialnumber on the back.)

the whole topic is probably a bit uncovered because many people still use the original disc instead of putting a proper later model inside, which is bigger than 120 and, for what its worth, quiet.

[Lehnartz]

Wow!  Thanks @AlphaMac.  You made your point quite well.  That video in particular demonstrates why flipping the fan would be a bad idea.  I will keep to the original configuration.

I will be putting in the exact same power unit fan as you, the Noiseblocker NB-Multiframe M8-3 80x80x25mm.  For the chassis fan I will use a Silenx IXP7618 iXtrema Pro Fan which although thicker than most fans should still fit in the fan bracket (the specs indicate it should work -- the fan is 38mm thick and the fan bracket is 44mm deep.

Unlike you, and largely for the sake of simplicity, I do plan on using the fan bracket but I will cut out the grill as well as enlarge the holes on the case-plate on the other side just as you did (thanks for the tips). The Silenx I'll be using does not have openings in the corners of it chassis the way the Noiseblocker you used does. Because of this, nowhere near as much air will get blown inside the fan bracket so I am thinking (hoping) the noise effect of using the bracket should be less sever.  Plus its a quieter fan to begin with.

I am wondering what your thoughts are on tweaking the intake system of the CPU/heatsink? I know some people have covered the elongated oval slot in the top of the rubber holder with a piece of duct tape. On the page of Quicksilver mods I linked to in previous post the man stated that "the fan is not attached directly to the metal casing, but rather onto a rubber thingy. The problem with this rubber holder is that it does not cover the fan completely, so the air is not taken from the outside, but from the inside instead. Rather stupid construction, but easily fixed".

His fix was to cover not only the slot on top but the sides as well using some kind of rubber or foam, thus ensuring that more of the intake air came from outside the case.  While this makes sense in theory I am wondering if their was a reason behind the design, in particular the oval slot on top, and I am a little reluctant to do this.

http://www.thorburn.se/henrik/quicksilver/images/IMG_1017.jpg


One quick question for you or anyone else who wants to chime in.  I have read several places to be very careful when dealing with the power unit because of the stored voltage in it. What techniques or precautions do I need to exercise to change its fan safely?

[Protools5LEGuy]

Maybe it is time to combine the three currently active Quicksilver users into one thread here?
 
AlphaMac
rpschultz13
part12studios

Especially concerning hardware, HD upgrades, etcetera. Hmmm?

All the QS post that lately were here are united now HERE

[part12studios]

yea good point about the IDE jumper pin scenarios..  I see your point and yes in that case it would be worthwhile for the more expensive option because of those features.  I'll have to double check.  i'm pretty sure that there are two IDE cards on my G4 sawtooth?  I have two hard drives in my system and i'm pretty sure each has it's own dedicated ribbon..   so i could probably get away with no needing the master / slave stuff.. but still for the future maybe that will be needed..   but yea i'd love to have two SSDs..  one for the system and one for recording audio too..  although i doubt access time with ssd will be much of an issue and maybe just get away with one 120gb drive..

[Protools5LEGuy]

Hey boys look at this quicksilver pump!

A Nasa engineer talkin about fan intake vs exhale QS

http://powerpcliberation.blogspot.com/2014/10/power-mac-g4-cooling-project-phase-3.html

[FdB]

Hey boys look at this quicksilver pump!
A Nasa engineer talkin about fan intake vs exhale QS

AbFab! All the way back from 2014. Great info.

Wonder if fiftysixk knows urdvurk and his efforts with the MDD?
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,3405.0.html

[FdB]

I think most / all the old updates are HERE:  https://support.apple.com/downloads/macdesktops
They start with newer stuff but you can keep adding more results and slowly work your way back in time.

yeah looking through that page the only updates available for quicksilver models relate to hard drive firmware and optical disk burners.

https://support.apple.com/downloads/macdesktops

https://support.apple.com/kb/DL1126?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US

https://web.archive.org/web/20080418104426/http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=86117

Thanks to refinery, GaryN and Protools5LEGuy for the Firmware / ROM updater sources. (Now all bookmarked!)

"Note: Power Mac G4 (QuickSilver) computers do not require this update".

*While the Power Mac G4 Firmware Update 4.2.8 is not noted as necessary for the QS, it is provided with (and was recommended) with the NewerTech MAXPower G4 processor upgrades for the QS and the Sawtooth. And… as the QS “A” boards shipped with the 4.2.5f1 Firmware, this might explain the need for that 4.2.8 Update for use with those NewerTech processor upgrades?

AND as the QS “B” boards have 4.33f2 Firmware… perhaps why I’ve had no success installing that NewerTech processor on a QS with a “B” board. [This begs the question(s) as to whether or not the the QS 4.33f2 can be downgraded  to the 4.2.8 firmware… or if it should even necessary with the “B” boards anyway?]

Eventually I’ll place an “A” board back into the 867 MHz QS and then attempt the 4.2.8 Firmware Update AND the installation of the NewerTech again. Seems that I now remember something of a sh*tstorm, surrounding the 4.28 update with the QS from all those many years ago. MAYBE it was due to the A vs. B boards and the individual firmware of each?

In the now-infamous words of IIO… “seems weird”.

[IIO]

soon i will just claim that everything dont understand or i dont know much about would be "wrong".

it is because i am getting older (which is really weird).

[part12studios]

Hey sorry if this is somewhat of a duplicate question, but amongst this thread which is a wall of amazing information, I can't seem to find the specific model of fan i should get that would be the quietest..  maybe it's on another thread, but i thought it was in here.  I remember it was roughly $35 or so.  I ordered the IDE / SATA adapter and SSD, just need the fan to order.

I'm in a music studio.. i'm replacing the HDD with a SSD so that will cut down some noise, but the fan is also a good noise generator as well so I'm looking for the quietest option.  If i can do any other mods to the case to help reduce sound I'm open to that as well.

Are there any other fans in the system?  I'm at work right now.  Does the PSU itself have a fan that I should be concerned about upgrading to reduce sound as well or just the one big system fan? 

Thanks,
Caleb

[part12studios]

Ok thanks for the message! so the noiseblocker sounds like the item I want to get..  and its a 1:1 swap?  I'm going to see if any local stores carry it and if not i see some online options for less than $20.. 

if someone has another super quiet fan with the 80x80x25mm dimensions..  2200rpm (no lower, as i guess 2200 might not be ideal).. any other factors i should be concerned with like pin connector compatibility or power/draw? 

[Lehnartz]

Well here is the new baby......





2002 Apple Power Macintosh G4 933MHz with 17 inch Apple Studio monitor, Pro Keyboard, Pro Mouse and all the original install discs.

Specs
https://everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/specs/powermac_g4_933_qs.html

I think the whole package was worth the $150 and 3 hour round-trip drive into New Hampshire.  She is in pristine condition -- barley a scratch on the outside and very little dust inside.  Everything works and she's not outrageously loud or hot.  The previous owner used it for video editing which is why it came with Final Cut Pro and the special Contour mouse which I’ve gathered can be used for FCP or Steinberg Nuendo (OSX only so won’t be much use to me).  Based on the condition of this computer I doubt it's been used all that much. Nothing looks upgraded inside, it all looks stock.

I plan on using this machine for audio not video.

A bit of background...

About a year ago they were cleaning out the attic at work and I was told everything was up for grabs.  In the corner, collecting dust amidst the cobwebs, was an old iMac G3.   Looking at it I had a sudden vision that there must be a robust group of geeky enthusiasts that still use these things, and share software and tips online.

I took it home and within an hour of Googling a large smile came over my face when I found this and similar sites, “Ah, ha......I knew it.....I knew it....I knew it”, I thought to myself.

But that is just how I got introduced. The addiction to OS9 didn’t start till I got the thing up and running with a clean install.  At first I was wondering if I was imagining things.  “Is everything really opening and happening this fast”, I thought to myself.  I installed more CPU intensive programs like Reason 2.5.  The performance of OS9 astounded me.  Is this 15+ year old computer running 15+ year old software really faster than today's computers running today's software?  Why are book-sized PDFs that would take a noticeable amount of time to open on my late-model Mac Book Pro opening instantaneously?  Have computers relative to their software been getting slower for the past 15 years? Has everyone in Silicon Valley lost their freakin’ minds?  Am I losing my mind?

I am now completely hooked to the blazing speed and performance of OS9.  When I loaded the new Quicksilver yesterday it booted into OSX.  A feeling of dread came over me.  I played around with it for all of 5 minutes and I was done -- I needed to get back to my happy place.  I quickly rebooted the machine into OS9 and a great big sigh of relief and feeling of calm came over me as it loaded with the familiar mac icon and sound.  There is was......OS9...... as simple and fast as ever.

Over the coming weeks I’ll be upgrading this Quicksilver and documenting it here.  I will have a bunch of questions along the way.  I am extremely thankful for this site and all the super helpful members who are always quick to lend a hand.


Here’s what I’ll be putting into the Quicksilver......





New PSU Fan
Noiseblocker NB-Multiframe M8-3,  80x80x25mm Fan (used but tested)
2200rpm
34.73 CFM Airflow
19.2 dBA


New Case Fan
Silenx IXP7618 iXtrema Pro Fan, SKU: IXP-76-18, 120 x 120 x 38 mm, Operating Voltage: 8-14v, Current Draw: 0.24A Power Consumption: 2.88w Bearings Type: Fluid Dynamic Bearings
1400 RPM
90 CFM Airflow
18 dBA


New SSD Hardrive
250GB OWC Mercury Pro Legacy 3.5-inch IDE/ATA Solid-State Drive Kit.
 I’ll create two equal size 120G partitions - one for system and one for storage.


New 1.5 K Ram (The maximum)
1.5GB KIT 3X 512MB PC133 APPLE Power Mac G4 Power Macintosh G4 M8493 MEMORY RAM


New NewerTech 3.6V PRAM Battery


New Thermal Paste under for Heatsink
Arctic Cooling ACTC-MX4 Thermal Compound Paste Grease 4Grams MX-

[Lehnartz]

@part12studios

Did you see the very handy PSU fan and Case fan lists that @AlphaMac posted earlier in this thread. They are now on page 1 of this combined Quicksilver thread.  They should give you all the info you need in replacing either of these fans  -- even gives you specs of the stock fans in the Quicksilver.

One thing I've read, posted either in this thread or another, is that you don't want to go any lower than 30 CFM for the PSU fan or you'll be slowly cooking your machine. 

Using AlphaMacs lists, you can find fans that match or exceed the CFM of the stock fans yet are quieter (lower dBA).

[part12studios]

yes indeed i did!  FdB got me on the straight and narrow..  i ordered one of those cheap IDE / SATA adapters because I'm good with a single SSD 120gb for my needs for the time being..  and I can vouch for how well they do/don't work for future generations! =D

Yea so I'm keeping it simple.. I ordered one of those quiet fans...  and for now i'm going to stop there for noise reduction..  i also ordered a ton of sound reduction foam squares to line my studio..  once those are in place I'll assess how much i care about any residual noise my machine might make..

now just waiting for the mail man to bring the goodies home.. 

I'm still trying to figure out though..  is it easy to upgrade an 867mhz G4..  and if it is, exactly what part(s) am i replacing.. is it popping out once CPU and sticking in another or is it more like a board upgrade? 

[Ninester]

Why stuff many drives or one big drive with many partitions in one basket..so to speak?

A Samsung 128G to ide card as Boot and a few mission critical audio apps. The price / performance ratio compared to OWC would be hard to beat?  All my data drives would be outboard via Firewire or PC card of choice compatible with OS 9. My thoughts are based on cheap usb3 outboard drives via pci cards. Cost and availability for the QS and the like, I have not researched but had used a usb card with my old B&W 300. As on my main PC desktop, all data drives can be removed, stored, and backed up when needed.  Puting all drives in one box is easier, but have learned that when one BIG drive fails...

My thoroughly baked "rescue" QS-DP runs very well now that dust and frozen fans have been blown out. All closed up, she runs breezy and warm.  From all the post scattered here and there old "Chernobyl" is not alone. When I want my QS to run quiet, I open the side door and use a small low speed box fan blowing directly across the DP heat sinks. Very quiet, effective..and cheap...SILENCE..i kill you!

[DieHard]

But that is just how I got introduced. The addiction to OS9 didn’t start till I got the thing up and running with a clean install.  At first I was wondering if I was imagining things.  “Is everything really opening and happening this fast”, I thought to myself.  I installed more CPU intensive programs like Reason 2.5.  The performance of OS9 astounded me.  Is this 15+ year old computer running 15+ year old software really faster than today's computers running today's software?  Why are book-sized PDFs that would take a noticeable amount of time to open on my late-model Mac Book Pro opening instantaneously?  Have computers relative to their software been getting slower for the past 15 years? Has everyone in Silicon Valley lost their freakin’ minds?  Am I losing my mind?

I am now completely hooked to the blazing speed and performance of OS9.  When I loaded the new Quicksilver yesterday it booted into OSX.  A feeling of dread came over me.  I played around with it for all of 5 minutes and I was done -- I needed to get back to my happy place.  I quickly rebooted the machine into OS9 and a great big sigh of relief and feeling of calm came over me as it loaded with the familiar mac icon and sound.  There is was......OS9...... as simple and fast as ever.

Many of us share your vision and observations...

From the original site (before the forum), in the early days... when it was just myself, Mactron, and a few core users

It feels fast... without a pretty, translucent GUI running over a Unix-based kernel there is nothing to slow OS 9 down. You click around and things actually happen, in real time, with no OS X spinning wheels or Windows circles to keep you guessing. For audio recording enthusiasts, many hardware interfaces with ASIO2 drivers yield an experience close to zero latency when playing virtual synths or drum machines. There are graphic artists, publishers, and writers that claim they can create projects faster with OS 9 because it "thinks" the way they do; they focus on one or two things (applications) at a time and see them to completion. It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create ?

[Lehnartz]

I have a handful of questions maybe someone can help me out with.

My 2002 Quicksilver 933 MHz came with the complete restore discs that load up both OSX and OS9.  You can dual boot from either OS.

I’m am still trying to decide whether to use that configuration or load only OS 9 using Universal file from this site.


Question Set 1
Does the restore discs default duel boot setup in any way slow down the performance of OS9 when it is running (and I don’t mean in “Classic” mode, I mean when it is booted in OS9)?  In other words, would only having OS9 present on the hardrive keep things snappier for some reason?

Does having OSX present just slow down the initial loading a bit but then have no drag on the system once OS9 is fully loaded?

Are there other advantages to having OSX present on this machine that I should take into consideration?


Question Set 2
I have seen conflicting advise about how to best format the SSD drives I plan on installing into this computer -- OWC legacy SSD.  Some have stated that any SSD has to be formatted in OSX to be stable and function properly, even if it is OS9 you want to run on that drive. Is this true? Wouldn’t formatting it using Apple Drive Setup V2.1 on the Universal Install OS9.2 CD available here be just as good?

What is the best way to format the two SSDs I plan on putting into machine.  I plan on using two OWC Legacy SSD kits. I was hoping to configure them as such...

Master Drive - 250G
Partition 1 =   120 G  -   OS, Applications, VSTs (softsynths, effects, ect)
Partition 2 =   120 G  -   All Presets for DAWs and VSTs and MIDI files.

Slave Drive - 500G
Partition 1  =  120G -  Samples (Drums, Bass, 8Bit, FXs)
Partition 2  =  120G -  Samples (Synths, Keys, Guitar, Other Instruments)
Partition 3  =  120G -  Recorded Audio
Partition 4  =  120G -  DAW Project Files,
Partition 5 =     20G -  DAW and VST Manuals. 


If I am using the Universal Install OS9.2 Install CD available here which has Apple Drive Setup V2.1 can I do the partitioning of the Master Drive as the first part of the install process?

Oh and Happy Easter and Passover everybody!!!

[FdB]

Universal OS 9 has latest/greatest updates and improvements over what might be on your original QS install discs. (Your original discs, circa 2002?)

Installing from original discs doesn’t set up separate partitions for OS X and OS 9 to reside upon... independently and “segregated”. (See possible problems / performance issues associated with OS 9 & OS X on the same single partition.)

Many maintain the advantage of having both systems “resident” in dual boot capacity (on separate partitions) for a number of reasons… installing OS 9 on the first boot partition and having X for other numerous reasons.

Have formatted SSDs in both ways mentioned, but have not determined if one way is better than the other. Whichever works best in your specific instance? Others may advise otherwise. Try both and see which works best for you and post your findings. Suppose that if you go OS 9 only, that maybe Drive Setup 2.1 might be best? <opinion

As for the SSD format / configuration questions and how best to partition the OWC Legacy SSDs. (Are there Master/Slave jumpers on these drives?) AND, the specific DAW related topics/questions, perhaps best answered by someone else here. (Invitation)

Yes, you should be able to use Drive Setup 2.1 to format / partition… unless it simply won’t recognize the drive(s) and allow such format / partitioning… in which case, you may be left with OS X’s drive setup.

Suppose much of this all really depends upon your choice to go all OS 9… or, w/ OS X also.

And a Happy Easter to you too (and all) as well.

[Lehnartz]

Thanks @FdB.

That steers me in the right direction. I will try the OS9 Universal and see how it goes.


 

[IIO]

max/msp says my 933 CPU would run at 55 degrees (celsius, that is)

is that okay?

[part12studios]

those are some great stats to compare systems.  I'm happy to say the IDE bridge to SSD worked out really well.  I still need to install the quieter fan but it's not a high priority right now.  I have the part I just need to psyche myself up to get deeper into the machine to swap out fan and I imagine in the process replace the CPU thermal paste (which i have some from another repair job).  I'm going to stick with the 867mhz cpu.  It is showing more CPU headroom with plugins in Digital Performer 3 which was nice to see, but i wouldn't say it's as 1:1 in improvement moving from the 450mhz sawtooth.  feels like maybe 25% faster, but the cpu clock speed is almost twice as fast, but at the price I paid for it, it was still time/money well spent. 

[DieHard]

I imagine in the process replace the CPU thermal paste (which i have some from another repair job).  I'm going to stick with the 867mhz cpu.  It is showing more CPU headroom with plugins in Digital Performer 3 which was nice to see, but i wouldn't say it's as 1:1 in improvement moving from the 450mhz sawtooth.  feels like maybe 25% faster, but the cpu clock speed is almost twice as fast, but at the price I paid for it, it was still time/money well spent.

If you are going to arctic silver it; replace it with a 933 single or Dual 1 Ghz while you are at it

[part12studios]

it's not just the CPU right? it's a board?  and does it have to come from a quicksilver to work? 

I see this one:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Power-Mac-Quicksilver-933-G4-933Mhz-CPU-820-1344-A-TESTED/233288174542?epid=1204738576&hash=item36510f0bce:g:CVwAAOSwlAZaVniR:sc:USPSPriority!02368!US!-1


but then the MDD board like this is 1ghz, but being that it's not from a quicksilver I imagine it doesn't work right?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-630T4386-1Ghz-G4-CPU-Processor-820-1497-A-630-4459-TESTED-FREE-SHIPPING/291973182109?epid=1007836547&hash=item43faf5329d:g:Zq0AAOSwEzxYUvKe


and this is a later model quicksilver I imagine and a bit more costly, but it's dual core which I understand does help vs a 1ghz single core?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/661-2591-CPU-Processor-Module-Power-Mac-G4-1Ghz-Dual-Quicksilver-2002-820-1324-A/273820635984?epid=1824570171&hash=item3fc0fb5350:g:plcAAOSwWm1cwPkz



the operation was mostly to replace the existing stock fan with one that's said to be quieter.  it's good enough for now which is why I've left well enough alone.  Replacing the HDD with an SSD was a big noise reducer, but the fan i still pretty noticeable. 

Caleb

[Borgmac]

I am restarting this thread because it has a lot of useful information.
If you want me to start a new thread, just let me know.
I am trying to upgrade my Quicksilver 733 MHz, motherboard RevA.
Got the opportunity to buy a motherboard (RevA) with a dual 800 MHz.
Unfortunately, not working. Try it with a single CPU 800 MHz, OK. I suspected the dual CPU board was faulty...
Did not want to test on my original motherboard (733 MHz) so found a cheap motherboard RevB with a single CPU 800 MHz, working well.
Today received another dual CPU board 800 MHz, test it on the RevB, not working 
I reset the PMU, but as soon as I put a dual CPU board, at startup, no sound or light on the power button. Fans and HD are working.
I should do something wrong, but what?
HELP 

[DieHard]

Comparing the "stock" 733 MHz to the "other" Quicksilvers....

OK, so it is important to remember that the stock "733" QS, as discussed here a few times, only had 256k "on chip" level 2 cache and no level 3 backside cache at all, which was really unheard of at the time. Even a 533 DA had 1 MB cache...

So it was not surprising that when used in a DAW environment, the 733 QS performed worse that the 533 DA !  It even felt unusually sluggish with graphic design apps also... the solution was obvious, you could take a CPU from a 733 DA (which had 1 MB of cache) and replace the QS 733 without any mods needed, of course, today, just find a cheap 933 QS CPU, you get 256k "on chip" level 2 cache, and 2 MB of DDR SDRAM level 3 backside cache. 

So the same machine will go from a geekbench of 372 to 550 (32% more power), most likely benefit even more in a DAW scenario since the cache directly impacts multi-track digital recording performance.

[Borgmac]

DieHard,
I already use a 800 QS CPU which gives a good boost, but why is the dual 800 CPU not working?

[GaryN]

Got the opportunity to buy a motherboard (RevA) with a dual 800 MHz.
Unfortunately, not working. Try it with a single CPU 800 MHz, OK. I suspected the dual CPU board was faulty...
Did not want to test on my original motherboard (733 MHz) so found a cheap motherboard RevB with a single CPU 800 MHz, working well.
Today received another dual CPU board 800 MHz, test it on the RevB, not working 
I reset the PMU, but as soon as I put a dual CPU board, at startup, no sound or light on the power button. Fans and HD are working.
I should do something wrong, but what?
HELP 

Saw your identical query on Facebunk - came here to check something and here you were too… so anyway:

There's no normal reason for your issue. All three CPU daughterboards in the QS are directly swappable.

THEREFORE:

You have managed to buy not one but two bad CPU cards… OR
Something you did during the swap is causing the problem.*
  * The startup symptom is weird. Assuming you own a voltmeter - and you shouldn't be hacking on a 20-year-old computer without one - you should check the Supply output voltages when you startup. It sounds like there might be a 5v logic supply problem… the fans and HDD both run on 12V so maybe they could spin up without anything else…??

SO……

What OS are you trying to boot? OS9 requires a Multiprocessing extension to be active although I would think (dangerous) that the boot would start and fail a little farther along.

You didn't want to test the unknown "new" CPU card on your Rev A mother.
Did you also NOT test the Rev B mother with your know-to-be-good single 733 CPU?

You see where I'm going here??

20-year-old stuff from where… fleabay?
You can only test by trial-and-error  and you can only test one part at a time. Otherwise you're spitting into the wind………in the dark. You have not 1, not 2, but three unknown "foreign" components.

You must verify them one by one. Put the CPU cards on your Rev A mother. If they work, the Rev B is bad. Don't worry… almost nothing that go wrong on a CPU card without leaving a mark can be bad enough to actually damage the motherboard.

Holler back.

[Borgmac]

There's no normal reason for your issue. All three CPU daughterboards in the QS are directly swappable.

Thanks for confirming this, I was not sure anymore.

The startup symptom is weird. Assuming you own a voltmeter - and you shouldn't be hacking on a 20-year-old computer without one - you should check the Supply output voltages when you startup. It sounds like there might be a 5v logic supply problem… the fans and HDD both run on 12V so maybe they could spin up without anything else…??

when waking up in the middle of the night 😳, I thought that the more probable answer to this double failure is the PSU that cannot provide the extra needed by the double cpu. I checked it before but I am going to do it again. Will probably not have time before Thursday 😡

What OS are you trying to boot?

Mac OS X for now but I do not even go up to that point.
To avoid other sources of problem, I have disconnected everything except fans. No video card, no RAM. With a single CPU board, I got the error sound as no ram is connected.
With the double CPU board, nothing.

20-year-old stuff from where… fleabay?
You can only test by trial-and-error  and you can only test one part at a time. Otherwise you're spitting into the wind………in the dark. You have not 1, not 2, but three unknown "foreign" components.
You must verify them one by one.

I actually have
Rev A with 733, original
Rev A with double 800
Rev B with 800
Double 800
I am not testing my original components, but, as you said, I have been doing trial and error with the others.
Rev A and B are ok with single 800
Rev A and B failed with both double 800.
That’s why I am going to test thoroughly the PSU voltage.
I’ll come back with the results in a couple of days.
Thanks for your help.

[Borgmac]

Actually it looks like the PSU is still pretty good…
Results are in green.

Then I tested with the single CPU 800 board.
Got the error signal, (no RAM)
P4 voltage 12.06
5volts at 5.20
CPU board at 12.05
Even if the dual CPU board is lowering the voltages a little bit, it is still within tolerance of 5%.
I was really hoping that it was a PSU problem.
I will try again with the RevA motherboard, but I am pretty sur I will got the same results.
Do I really have 2 faulty dual CPU boards???

[FBz]

Yes, very odd that you might have two faulty Dual 800 CPUs. But as the dual 800’s might be just a bit more demanding (sensitive) of your RAM… maybe clean all contacts on the RAM sticks with electronics contact cleaner OR 91% isopropyl alcohol & a cotton swab and then retest.

On only one machine and one motherboard FIRST.

BUT you should also VERY CLOSELY examine all of the pins on the CPU daughter cards (and the motherboard socket that they snap into). Look for bent pins, dust bunnies and any sort of oxidation or corrosion.

I’ve never (yet) had to clean such CPU connector pins - but I might consider VERY CAREFULLY and LIGHTLY using a very soft toothbrush or even a small art paintbrush with the alcohol or electronics cleaner... IF all else fails. And this of course, at your very own risk.

I have found bent CPU connector pins before.

Closely examine ALL of the CPU’s connection pins that you’re testing.

•If no change after all of the above… then time to put on your Opti-visor magnifier and very closely inspect the daughter cards for signs of any onboard circuit failures.

[Borgmac]

Thanks for the suggestions.
I had already look at the cpu daughter card small connectors. One was lightly out of position. I will anyway make another full control.
For the RAM, I am testing the board without any RAM in it, just trying to get the error sound at startup. I get it only with single CPU board, never with the dual CPU board. I will check anyway for any wrong aspect.

I am going definitively to check the daughter card for any defect.
Any hint on which component is usually faulty?
Any logical diagram of such cards available?
Thanks for your help.

[FBz]

Attached an image here of a QS DP 1GHz CPU that shows signs of overheating and failure of one of its’ processors. You may notice the darkened brown *burnt” area of the surround, on the left processor’s mount bed. This is definitely something to first look for on your Dual 800’s. (i.e. a baked chip)

As for the rest of the daughter card and other components… a very close visual inspection of everything is warranted… looking for signs of excessive heat on the board’s circuitry or failed, tiny individual components.

A logical diagram of the cards? None that I have… but search for one if you must.

Extremely close visual inspection is best, before going any further down the rabbit hole.

AND you might try testing all again (considering all that GaryN and DieHard have already mentioned here) and with at least one stick of RAM installed - in only the one chosen “test bed” machine.

[GaryN]

I was really hoping that it was a PSU problem.
I will try again with the RevA motherboard, but I am pretty sur I will got the same results.
Do I really have 2 faulty dual CPU boards???

True story
I live in Napa, CA
Watching the news this morning, the weathergirlperson said "no rain today…not a chance"
5 minutes later I heard a tapping sound. I looked outside and it was raining and hailing to boot.
Just because something seems unlikely doesn't mean it's impossible.
That you don't want it to be true doesn't swing the odds in your favor one bit.

Yes, it's not only possible, but it's really looking like you've acquired two bad dual 800's.

[Borgmac]

Thanks FBz.
I will only be able to put a picture tomorrow, but the thin plastic on top of the CPU holder, around it, has a couple of holes. The plastic has been torn or more probably overheated.
By the way, this plastic being at a level under the CPU, it is not in contact with the heatsink, so only cooled by the flow of air.

[Borgmac]

I will only be able to put a picture tomorrow, but the thin plastic on top of the CPU holder, around it, has a couple of holes. The plastic has been torn or more probably overheated.
By the way, this plastic being at a level under the CPU, it is not in contact with the heatsink, so only cooled by the flow of air.

Here they are!
What's your opinion, torn or overheating?
I am not too concerned by this as the heatsink should not touch the electronic components, being at a higher level than the CPU.
Do you agree, should I protect these holes?

[FBz]

In spite of the plastic tears, that thing looks like it’s never even been warm.

Keep at it.
No success, send ‘em to me for more testing and close examination…

When and if necessary.

[Borgmac]

Back from a couple of weeks on a trip to Texas, here are the outcome of this story.
FBz was right to insist on contacts points and I was probably right to think that the probability of having 2 faulty dual CPU daughter board was quite low.
I am now running that QS 733 with a RevB board and a dual CPU 800.
After cleaning through the contact points, I got a startup chime but nothing more. Then after replacing the thermal paste, no startup chime anymore.
I then realize that if I pressed firmly on the heatsink on the top of the connector I got a full startup and then 100% startup success since.

But only with one the the 2 daughter board. One of them was actually faulty. I send it back to UsedMac and they sent another one, this time fully working with the L3 cache.

[lepidotos]

Recently-ish (as of a few months ago) picked up a Quicksilver from a recycler's and it's doing pretty well, alright enough that I'm typing on it right now. It didn't come with a hard drive so I used the drive from my AGP Graphics, and it's pretty fast, but whenever I try to boot into Mac OS 9, it works... but then not long later it completely disables all inputs except moving the cursor. No keyboard, no mouse button. I know it happens afterward because I can close out some of the popup boxes telling me Kaleidoscope is being run as a trial. I've already tried disabling USB Overdrive, no dice there.
I still haven't figured out any idea why that's happening.
Anyway, I specifically bought this computer to eventually be as stupidly high spec as is "reasonable", overclocked to oblivion and parts added in as necessary. Will eventually take the plunge on a SeriTek SATA card, and have already bought two 7455s to replace the stock 7450s @ 800 (which I'll eventually try to replace with 7457s that may be in the early iBook G4s according to someone over on MacRumors) that I'll be aiming to run at about 1350 on a 150MHz bus. Already have my Radeon 9800 Pro installed and it's feeling the struggle with this 1080p panel I swapped in for the CRT just due to weight considerations on this plastic folding desk. However, at the same time, I'm used to 85Hz so that may just be the 60Hz locked refresh.
After all that's said and done, I'll probably use it to see how fast and usable MorphOS can be with hardware like that.

[Borgmac]

Quicksilver Fans replacement

You’ll find hereafter some results of tests made with a QuickSilver 733 upgraded with a RevB board and a dual 800 CPU daughter board. Some test were made also on a QS Server with RevA and dual 800 CPU.

I know that a lot has been said by alphamac in his very interesting posts but he had additional cards creating more heat,  so he was looking for high flow, like 100 CFM for the case fan. In my case, I was looking mainly to reduce the noise and to replace the CPU fans for the dual CPU.

On both of these computers, CPU fans were not working anymore, speed was increasing a little bit, then slowing down and the T was increasing
With the 733 CPU, this was not an issue, reaching 41c after 1 hour.
But with the dual CPU, I reach 40c after 10 minutes

Here are the conclusions of my tests.
Temperatures were measured after 30 and 60 minutes of video conversion, using around 80% of the CPUs.

Best option for single and dual CPU is 2 Noctua Fans.
Very good option for high double CPU usage, a little bit cheaper, is Sanyo, higher flow  but more noisy.

Evercool, much cheaper is VERY noisy.
For the Case fan, the SY1225 is generating more noise than the CP fan. That is why I start looking for something quiet and choose the Noctua.

There was no obvious relation between the CPU Heatsink Temperature and the exhaust Case Fan Temperature
Exhaust 27-28c with CPU 40c to 48c (After 1 hr test)

[IIO]

...

[Greystash]

Damn I just bought a Sunon, wish I thought to look here first!