Author Topic: Quicksilver Thread!  (Read 7206 times)

Offline FdB

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Quicksilver Thread!
« on: November 06, 2018, 07:49:07 PM »
All these tubes and wires… I can’t find anything.”
       She Blinded Me With Science -Thomas Dolby

Picked up yet another Quicksilver (867MHz) recently (because of all the retail
OS packages that came with it). It’s got an “A” board, not a “B” and it’s painfully
slow booting. Boot ROM currently @ 4.2.5f2 while other QS’es here are 4.3.3f2
(“B” boards) and I know that I have a Firmware updater ‘round here somewhere,
but my memory and search efforts fail me and I have Googled extensively,
all to no avail (thus far).

Anybody lay their hands on a updater copy, easily?
Or does this even apply to the good ol’ “A” board?

Signed,
Looked… but lazy
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Offline AlphaMac

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Quicksilver Thread!
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2019, 02:01:29 PM »
Newbie here looking for help and advice on restoring an old G4 for audio production. I'm not that computer literate but I think I'll get through this. I'm hoping to quite this unit a bit and speed up the drive space.

Specs: G4 Power Mac, 733Mhz, QuickSilver, Gigabit, 2001

Questions

1. Is it worth replacing the PSU fan?
2. What SSD is compatible for my G4? I think it will only read up to 120GB, but that's fine for me.
3. Are they any other mods or improvements I should know about outside of the PSU and fans?
4. What is the most suitable case fan and processor fan?

That's all for starters. Any info will help. Thanks

-AlphaMac

 

Offline Mardeec

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2019, 02:45:27 PM »
I can't help with the power supply and fan questions, but take a look at Other World Computing for a selection of SSDs.

https://eshop.macsales.com/upgrades/

Look under "Legacy" and follow the menus for your model.

I have the same model Quicksilver, and I thought it was somewhat quieter than the MDD models, but probably still too noisy for any serious recording.  Good luck with your restoration! 

Offline AlphaMac

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2019, 04:44:53 PM »
Thanks Mardeec.

OWC is my first choice but now I need to know if a 250GB drive will work on my system, or at least read 120GB. I just want to make sure before I buy it. They've sold out of 120GB, yet the 250GB is around the same price. Seems like a waste of space to buy 250GB.

Q: Am I limited to 120GB for my entire system or 120GB per drive?
Q: If it's 120GB per drive are there other 120GB drives at half the price (or cheaper than OWC's 250GB) so I can install two 120GB drives?

Any feedback is welcome.

P.S. Yes it's a noisy unit for audio recording, but it's worked fine since the first day I bought it. I plan to use it in a other room with an Apogee Track2 converter.

-AlphaMac

Offline Mardeec

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2019, 06:45:36 PM »
AlphaMac,

I haven't done this with any of my G4s, but take a look at DieHard's post on using large hard drives:

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2765.msg17150.html#msg17150

Especially the section IF YOU ARE GOING TO USE A HARD DRIVE GREATER THAN 128 GB USE Mac OS 9.2.2

Fortunately, the Quicksilver 733 is one of the models with the correct specs to handle this.  As I understand it, as long as you keep the partitions under 190Gb, it's possible to use very large drives.




Offline DieHard

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2019, 08:28:33 AM »
Thanks Mardeec.

OWC is my first choice but now I need to know if a 250GB drive will work on my system, or at least read 120GB. I just want to make sure before I buy it. They've sold out of 120GB, yet the 250GB is around the same price. Seems like a waste of space to buy 250GB.

Q: Am I limited to 120GB for my entire system or 120GB per drive?
Q: If it's 120GB per drive are there other 120GB drives at half the price (or cheaper than OWC's 250GB) so I can install two 120GB drives?

Any feedback is welcome.

P.S. Yes it's a noisy unit for audio recording, but it's worked fine since the first day I bought it. I plan to use it in a other room with an Apogee Track2 converter.

-AlphaMac

It will depend on your Logic Board if you can see over 128GB, there is a ton of info here on the forum

also... this is from our main site...

Quote
If you intend to use hard drives larger than 128GB under OS 9, then be aware that you will need a Mac with an IDE controller that is 48-bit LBA compliant. What the hell is that, you ask? Well, it is the ability of the Mac to see the total number of heads, cylinders, and sectors of large hard drives. We have tested the following Macs and they can see hard drives of up to 500GB within Mac OS 9.2.2: Power Mac G4 QuickSilver 733, 800, Dual 800, 867, 933, and Dual 1 GHz with logic board 820-1342-B (QS logic board 820-1276-A will NOT work and peak out at 128 GB)

Offline AlphaMac

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2019, 12:56:06 PM »
Thanks I'll look into this. How can I tell what model logic board I have? It's not powered up right now and I'm waiting for a new PSU.

I was playing around with the CPU fan today. I had it out of the board running on a 12V adapter. I was moving the fan (with the rubber case) in its position and noticed that when pressed into position the vibration of the steel case alone increases some noise. It there's a way to isolate or suspend the fan that alone would reduce some noise.

I've been looking at this brand for fans: NB-Multiframe M8-S3 80mm x 25mm Ultra Silent Fan - 2200 RPM - 19 dBA http://www.frozencpu.com/products/8399/fan-515/Noiseblocker_NB-Multiframe_M8-S3_80mm_x_25mm_Ultra_Silent_Fan_-_2200_RPM_-_19_dBA.html?tl=g33c165s356#blank

The specs are a little lower than the original fans but I plan to compensate some airflow with something. I'm not worried about cosmetics. I'll drill some holes if I have to.

-AlphaMac

Offline AlphaMac

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2019, 05:52:06 PM »
Would this work for the the case fan? I know opinions will vary but I'm betting the soft material will be less noisy from the original without sacrificing CFM flow.

Noiseblocker NB-eLoop B12-4 120mmx25mm Ultra Silent Bionic Blade Fan - 2400 RPM - 34.29 dBA http://www.frozencpu.com/products/16919/fan-1049/Noiseblocker_NB-eLoop_B12-4_120mmx25mm_Ultra_Silent_Bionic_Blade_Fan_-_2400_RPM_-_3429_dBA_.html?tl=g33c165s358#blank

3 Pin to 2 Pin Adapter Cable http://www.frozencpu.com/products/7748/cab-127/3_Pin_to_2_Pin_Adapter_Cable_-_Type_A.html?tl=g2c251s634

Any issues with converting 3-to-2 pin? Sorry for the basic questions.

-AlphaMac

Offline DieHard

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2019, 08:39:20 AM »
Quote
Thanks I'll look into this. How can I tell what model logic board I have

The part Number described is literally stamped on the top of board, no need to remove or power up, just look (google location if you cannot find it)

As far as fan mods, search the forum, we have covered much of this many times... changing fans from 3 wire to 2 wire configurations, usually result in them running non-variable (full speed only)

Offline AlphaMac

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2019, 07:23:36 PM »
Got it. Thanks. I posted an image for layman's like me.



I'm drilling larger holes right now on the steel grill frame for the fan case. I seen the post on making an outter grill on the plastic case. I might try that. It makes sense to get more hot air out of the unit.

Offline AlphaMac

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2019, 08:17:55 PM »
Here's the steel case grill drilled out with larger holes. The drill bit size as 9/32. I used a vacuum pressing up against the grill from the inside to catch the shavings while drilling from the opposite side. This kept the grill from bending while I was pushing against it with the drill.

One thing I noticed while half way complete was the noise of the vacuum when pressed against the larger holes compared to the old sized holes. The old holes would screech at a high pitch while the larger holes were drastically less noisy. Obviously there's less obstruction for air to flow now.

I might attempt the plastic casing now. Not sure yet.






Offline refinery

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2019, 12:20:40 AM »
i dont think you would need to add any vent holes to the plastic case. there's an air-gap in the bottom where it meets the metal frame which allows it to vent, probably more than sufficient for your needs. plus, why ugly up the case?

also have you considered widening the inlet holes toward the front of the case? Especially if you're increasing the air output, there's a potential that there may not be enough ventilation to pull in cool air in which case the effort of the new exhaust is wasted.

you might, if you're feeling daring, want to replace the fan in the PSU. ive found those are usually the worst culprits. but, if you're buying a new PSU, it may not be an issue.
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Offline DieHard

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2019, 08:19:15 AM »
Got it. Thanks. I posted an image for layman's like me.




So for your unit, use hard drives that are 120GB and smaller, it will NOT see large drives

Offline AlphaMac

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2019, 09:37:00 AM »
@refinery I'm just doing some minor enchantments until I understand the airflow dynamics of this unit. I'll check out the inlet holes you're talking about.


@DieHard Thanks. I figured. But does that mean 120GB per drive or throughout my entire chain? I couldn't find anything specifying that. I'd still be happy with a fast 120GB SSD drive since I transfer everything to my main computer anyways. But if I can get two 120GB going that would be great.


I got my PSU today. What's the best way to test the PSU out of the box? I seen the paperclip test but I don't want to try it until I know for sure.

Offline DieHard

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2019, 10:49:13 AM »
Quote
I figured. But does that mean 120GB per drive or throughout my entire chain?

128GB Max PER DRIVE... So, you can do (2) on the main Controller and an additional drive under the CD ROM (instead of a Zip); (3) Hard drives @ 120GB Each :)

Offline AlphaMac

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2019, 11:14:38 AM »
@DieHard That's good enough for me. Now I have to get this thing actually running.

I did some basic tests with a multimeter on the new PSU and I can't get a voltage reading across the pins. The seller said it was tested and power cable is fine. Could it be the fuse?

I might need a backup plan here cause I need to get this unit running asap. Can anyone recommend someone who can rebuild a G4 to spec? Or has a refurbished one for sale.

-AlphaMac

Offline FdB

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2019, 11:49:10 AM »
Where (in-the-world) are you... located? ::)
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Offline AlphaMac

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2019, 12:30:14 PM »
@FdB Toronto, Canada.

Offline AlphaMac

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2019, 03:45:58 PM »
Ok I've made numerous attempts to get a voltage reading across the PSU pins and no luck. I tried to jump the pins as a last attempt and no luck either. Before I conclude this is a dead unit is there anything I should try? I haven't installed it yet. Would it matter? Does anything on the logic board affect or turn something on to get the power going? Any advice is welcome.

-AlphaMac

Offline FdB

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2019, 04:18:36 PM »
How reliable is the source of the PSU? Can you return it easily?

If you take your time and carefully install it and still
it does not work… then return it. If the PSU is dead,
it won’t hurt your QS and you may then know for certain
that the PSU is completely deceased. AND make certain
that your onboard battery is good / fresh (& if not, removed.)

*Even though some have reported no-boot status without the battery.

Once you install the PSU, take note of exactly what the machine does,
even if it does not completely boot with the new (used) PSU.
Or, even if it does absolutely nothing.
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Offline refinery

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2019, 04:43:13 PM »
you could just lay it out flat next to the machine temporarily and connect it up and see if it turns on?
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Offline FdB

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2019, 06:30:18 PM »
For that matter, might as well test the PSU already in the machine in the same way that the new PSU has been tested, to see if it shows “no voltage” as well… to “test the testing”, so to speak.

Evidently the original PSU was working… in order to power the fans and provide the noise that AlphaMac seeks to quiet.

Did the original PSU die, or is it slated to be replaced because of its’ fan noise? If it’s a matter of a bad fan in the original PSU, then maybe move the fan from the new PSU to the old one.

AND, if the Quicksilver is to be sequestered in another room as mentioned… what’s a little fan noise?

Unless it’s freakin’ screaming through the walls. ;)
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Offline AlphaMac

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2019, 07:33:11 PM »
@FdB My old PSU was dead. The other day I removed the fan and powered it with an adapter and it was hardly moving on its own. I had to push it with my finger. The short story is I came home one day and seen my mac off -- power it on and it shut off again 20-30min later. Tried again and that was it. My worry is if the logic board was damaged.

---

I tried the installation a few times. Nothing happened. Dead cold. So I opened the PSU as far as removing the circuit board a little bit -- don't worry I planned to short the capacitors with a neon bulb but when I measured them there was no voltage, even after plugging the unit in 20 minutes before. I don't think they're filling up. 

I also looked around for any burns parts. Nothing. Other than a small area on the circuit board with some slight discoloration everything looked ok, but what do I know. The odd thing was there was no dust at all when I blew it out. Maybe someone opened this unit already.

Anyways I was prepared for this. For any newbies reading this make sure you find a reputable seller or someone experienced in refurbishing PSUs. These units are getting old so the chances of something going wrong increases over time.

Time to move forward with the next plan.




Offline AlphaMac

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2019, 08:00:25 PM »
Does anyone know of this person's service for refurbishing PSUs? They have a pretty high rating.

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/REPAIR-SERVICE-Apple-PowerMac-G4-Quicksilver-Power-Supply-QS-API1PC12/141543772231?hash=item20f4aa9047:g:CRUAAOSwk5FUuUsM

Question: If I get the PSU fixed but the logic board is damaged, am I running the risk of burning the PSU? I might even get both PSUs fixed to keep one for the future.

Offline FdB

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2019, 08:12:42 PM »
Ah, you posted just as I was about to. Looks like Andy has raised his prices a bit….

Appreciate the explanation. Still wonder about you trying to solve fan noise in a machine that wouldn’t run… unless your PSU has just died very recently. But, no matter.

For PSU rebuild / refurbs contact Andy Cuffe (acuffe@gmail.com) down in Austin Texas USA. He’s a very good guy and may even rebuild Quicksilver PSUs for slightly less than the MDDs. He did say back in November of 2017 …that he could offer members of this Forum a price reduction for his services.

And here’s an eBay link (provided by GaryN) for Andy’s services:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/REPAIR-SERVICE-Apple-PowerMac-G4-Mirror-Drive-Doors-Power-Supply-MDD/141030901102?hash=item20d618c56e:g:~RsAAMXQysxSAA61

If you’re now stuck with (2) bad PSUs, Andy might offer you a little for one of the dead ones. Ask him. And be certain to tell him that you're a member of MacOS9Lives Forum.

All of this, if you can’t find a good source for this service… up there in Canada.

Only other simple thing I might suggest at this point is to check continuity through the PSU’s fuse. But if the machine did start & run, only to then die later (never to boot again) then it’s most likely RIP… PSU.

I’ve two QS “spares” at present. One completely dead and the other one with a dead fan power circuit… or I’d simply send you one. My regrets. Do contact Andy.

And no, it shouldn’t damage the PSU if the logic board is toast.
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Offline AlphaMac

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2019, 09:43:01 PM »
I had this unit in a rackmount covered with sound panels -- it was a hotbox, but it ran for more than a decade like this. Ha. So I never paid that much attention to the noise. Eventually it gave out. So that's when I decided to give it some love.

I'd rather fix this unit and use the old version of Pro Tools than commit to new software and hardware. The way things are going now everything requires an annual licensing fee. It's ridiculous and expensive. And than you have to deal with all the bugs and updates. The old Pro Tools ran flawlessly with no latency. For me it's worth to fix.

Thanks for the info. I'll contact him and see what he can arrange. I'm hoping he can switch out the fan with a newer fan too.

-AlphaMac

Offline AlphaMac

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2019, 05:11:46 AM »
Quote
Only other simple thing I might suggest at this point is to check continuity through the PSU’s fuse.

Where is the fuse located?

Offline DieHard

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2019, 10:03:56 AM »
Hair Dryer trick works on many bad QS Power supplies (search for it here or google it),

basically, leave the unit plugged in, heat the PS with a hair dryer for about 3 to 5 minutes via the back and obviously don't hold it is one spot too long on "super hot" mode; then try to power on, if you don't unplug the PS from the wall, it will then start on it's own; clients sometimes get 1 to 2 years out of a bad PS in this manner

some info here:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=566.0

Offline AlphaMac

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2019, 11:38:40 AM »
Dryer didn't work. I'm done with short term solutions. This PSU needs to be refurbished anyways.

I might get lucky and scoop a 800Mhz QS with Tiger installed. Then keep working on this G4 as a backup. Now I have to check if I can get a copy of Pro Tools for a mix/24 system and run it on Tiger, unless I'm able to wipe out Tiger and install OS9.

Offline AlphaMac

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2019, 04:41:04 PM »
I'll be purchasing a new G4 soon as a quick resolution to get production up and running. If I'm lucky I'll be able to swap out my old drive into a new G4 to retrieve some session files. I'm guessing this would only work with other G4 QS models, or can it work with higher models, say G5? I don't know.

I still plan to rebuild my current QS and experiment a bit, so I'll keep this thread going with updates.

After playing with the fans, in and outside the box with a power adapter, I'm convinced the internal steel case is pretty much an echo chamber that needs dampening. Just take a pen and hit the inside steel case of you'll hear it resonate at a high pitch. With the fans and wind blowing (moving air creates noise), all that noise is circulating inside the unit and mostly coming out the back. I'll keep you posted on some ideas I plan to try.

-AlphaMac

Offline AlphaMac

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2019, 08:04:58 AM »
Here she is. It's a B board. It was from a local seller. I drove as fast as I could when he told me it was a B board.

I just need to confirm if I can swap out this drive for my old drive. I read some posts online and it says this was only possible with OS9 as OSX and later versions need need to recognize hardware. Any thoughts?

I had my old G4 in a rackmount with sound panels around it — then it stopped working — so I never had the chance to study the noise. Now I can hear it running on the bench.

I didn't tear it down, but just to confirm that the fans on this unit weren't modified: my case fan and PSU fan are both blowing air out. I tested with a small piece of paper. Is that right?


Offline FdB

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2019, 09:20:42 AM »
Yes, fans do seem to blow weird... but if you've not changed anything, they're blowing correctly.

AND, just swap out the drives and try to boot it from your old drive. Should work. If not, it won't hurt anything. Just won't boot.

Only one HD in your old 733 QS? I ask only if the old HD was setup as a slave or a master. If there was only one drive, then chances are that is already setup correctly as a master.
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Offline AlphaMac

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #32 on: March 19, 2019, 11:11:48 AM »
Man that worked like a charm. I switched the drives and it fired right up with no problems.

Now I have to figure out what internal drives to install and whether to go PCI or IDE.

-AlphaMac

Offline refinery

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #33 on: March 19, 2019, 02:32:03 PM »
tough call on that machine. the internal bus is only ATA5 (66MB) sec so you could get an IDE-SATA converter, or try to track down a OS9-compatible PCI SATA card on ebay. they pop up from time to time. I have PCI SATA cards in two of my OS9 machines and its very nice and fast.
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Offline AlphaMac

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2019, 08:38:18 AM »
@refinery: I've been reading this post regarding PCIs on G4s http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,803.msg2903.html#msg2903

Does this mean no matter what I'm limited to 66mb/s whether IDE or PCI, or have other configurations exceeded this limit? I don't even know what my current 7200 HDs are transferring at. What's the best way to test it?

Offline AlphaMac

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2019, 03:18:57 PM »


I selected a bunch of case fans measuring around 90-110 CFM and then narrowed it down to SilenX and Noiseblocker. I might modify the 140mm to fit my 733mhz and use the SlienX on the 800mhz, although at 38mm wide it might be too tight to fit the case.

The dBA/CFM ratio implies the lowest noise per volume of air moved. In other words the lower the better. I'm a bit skeptical about the SlienX being so low — almost 50% below average. Maybe it is that good.






Offline refinery

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2019, 03:26:26 PM »
@refinery: I've been reading this post regarding PCIs on G4s http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,803.msg2903.html#msg2903

Does this mean no matter what I'm limited to 66mb/s whether IDE or PCI, or have other configurations exceeded this limit? I don't even know what my current 7200 HDs are transferring at. What's the best way to test it?

you're only limited to 66mb if you stick with the internal bus. If you go with PCI based solutions, its dependent entirely on the card, you could get an ATA-100, ATA-133, or a SATA-based (150) card.

The drives however are really the limiting factor. A typical 120GB spinner drive will probably not come close to saturating that connection. ATTO Disk Benchmark tools here:
https://www.atto.com/downloads/42#9

do include a benchmark tool, but to be honest I dont know if its limited to ATTO only cards. worth a shot I suppose. That would tell you if your existing drive is saturating that link or not.
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Offline refinery

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2019, 03:27:20 PM »

The dBA/CFM ratio implies the lowest noise per volume of air moved. In other words the lower the better. I'm a bit skeptical about the SlienX being so low — almost 50% below average. Maybe it is that good.

Have you looked at Noctua fans? They are expensive but some of the best you can get for noise levels. I use them almost exclusively and they never disappoint (and they usually have 7 year warranties too... on a FAN!)

www.noctua.at
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Offline AlphaMac

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2019, 04:54:39 PM »
@refinery: Thanks. I might go with SATA. I'm trying to find an internal/external PCI card to setup a swappable external drive for transferring files to my main computer. 

Noctua's dBA/CFM ratio is very low with SilenX and Noiseblocker, but for my use the CFM isn't high enough. I have PT pci/DSP cards that add  extra heat to my unit. If I was going for noise reduction in a stock G4 I'd consider this fan. I've updated the specs with Noctua.


Offline refinery

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2019, 06:44:00 PM »
well there's plenty of other models besides the ULN that are super quiet. I use the (now-discontinued) P12 @ 1300RPM in my MDD and also my Hackintosh and they are unbelievably quiet. They also give you in-line resistor packs to slow down the speeds if they are too loud for your taste.

i only keep pushing the noctuas because they have a very good reputation (not counting my own personal excellent experiences with their products) but I know other manufacturers have been accused in the past of woefully overstating their fans' performance. might be worth doing some googling to see how accurate those others are in their claimed cooling statistics. I know nothing about NoiseBlocker but I do recall hearing SilenX being accused of that in the past.

ive honestly been surprised Apple hasnt made moves to buy Noctua, their cooling tech is so well-made. It seems like the perfect match to Apple products.

regarding the PCI sata card, the only one I know of with both internal and external ports is the Seritek 1eVE2+2, but good luck finding one of those as they are long discontinued. However, you may have luck finding one with a compatible chipset that can be flashed. Check out the storage forums for more threads on those. Alternatively, if you found one with internal ports and arent too picky about frankensteining your machine, you could always use an internal sata to e-sata adapter cable.
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Offline AlphaMac

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #40 on: March 22, 2019, 06:25:41 AM »
@refinery: Quiet out-of-the-box is one thing, how long it sustains at the same dBA level is another. The chart below compares the noise increase of Sunon's MagLev tech to general fans. Any new fan will sound great out of the box because it's balanced with minimal bearing friction. But after 10,000 hours it might be 50% than the original dBA rating due to mechanical erosion.

For someone like me that wants durability as opposed to the lowest noise reduction, what they want is sustainable anti-vibration.


Offline refinery

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2019, 02:18:50 PM »
well for what its worth, the noctuas in my hackintosh are at least 4 years old at this point and ive never noticed any noise increase in that time. whichever you end up choosing im sure it will be a great improvement over whats in there now.
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Offline AlphaMac

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #42 on: March 22, 2019, 09:15:52 PM »
So for the case fan I decided to go with Noiseblocker's NB-eLoop B14-3 (140mmx29mm, 1400rpm, 104.9CFM, 28.5dBA).

Why I choose this fan..

Size: With a small mod to the fan case being lowered about 1/2", a 140mm fan can fit nicely in the steel case. Larger blades means more CFM and with the extra space available I figured 140mm was a better bet. I didn't want to substitute air flow for less noise. Also the specs above are rated at 13.8v (max) so at 12v I expect a CFM around the mid-to-lower 90s. With the extra CFM I can even add dust filters around the unit, which is really what kills the bearings on fans.

Anti-Vibration: One of the first things I noticed when studying the interior of my G4 was the transfer of noise and vibration. It was noticeably since my fans were worn and noisy. I knew right away that noise could greatly be reduced by using rubber materials. Noiseblocker fans are designed with a the right materials and mounts for reducing the transfer of vibration. If you listen to youtube vids comparing Noiseblocker to other fans, you'll notice less tabletop noise from the anti-vibration design.

I don't doubt the performance of any other premium fans. I choose this fan for my purpose being in a studio with lots of heat generated from vintage tube amps and other high-powered gear.

I had few errors on my spreadsheet. Below is the updated table. Next is the CPU and PSU fan.




Offline AlphaMac

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #43 on: March 24, 2019, 09:41:32 AM »
I got the Noiseblocker on the bench. This fan is moving quite a bit of air. Good quality. While I was tinkering around I noticed that if the suction side of the fan is obstructed (I used my hand) it creates more noise like a vacuum, whereas when it's obstructed on the blowing side the noise level stays the same or even dampens a bit. So I won't be installing it in the steel case mount. Just thought I'd share that for anyone considering this fan.

Offline AlphaMac

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #44 on: March 24, 2019, 12:47:34 PM »
Here she is installed. Just humming along nice and quiet. There's still wind noise though since this fan's CFM is fairly high compared to what many might choose, but a big difference from the old fan setup. That steel fan case has no purpose in these units other than a safety feature. It just adds suction noise. Take it out IMO.




Offline IIO

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #45 on: March 25, 2019, 09:30:41 AM »
Thanks Mardeec.

OWC is my first choice but now I need to know if a 250GB drive will work on my system, or at least read 120GB. I just want to make sure before I buy it. They've sold out of 120GB, yet the 250GB is around the same price. Seems like a waste of space to buy 250GB.


all 733s here in europe should only support 127 gb. but there might be other models which do have an 48 controller. (

similar issue with the dual 1.0, there is one series with and one series without)

using a bigger drive is not a problem. the rest will just not be used.

whats your budget? have you thought about SATA?
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Offline DieHard

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2019, 09:59:15 AM »
Thanks for the pictures :)

That is one sexy looking fan and I may give it a try in one of my QS

From one of my previous posts:
Quote
My favorite Quicksilver PS fan replacement is an IXTREMA 80 Pro series, sku# IXP-54-14T by Silenx

It rates as super quiet (max 14db) and Pretty good CFM at 32cfm
Best airflow to noise ratio

Just in case one wants to try the PS also

Offline AlphaMac

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #47 on: March 25, 2019, 01:55:22 PM »
In reference to Reply#9: If you plan to drill out larger holes I suggest to only drill the side fan grill along with the holes on the bottom. That's all you need. Does it make a difference? From my observation yes. I'd say you'll get 15-20% more air flowing out. What's unique about the Noiseblocker is that it chops up the air so it disperses more diagonally as opposed to straight. It's very ideal for optimizing air outflow, but I wouldn't use it as a CPU/PSU fan. That's where Noctua's focused flow fans might be better, or SilenX.

Here's an image showing how it was mounted on the side. I had to line up and drill the holes.




And here's a little trick if you need to pop the side panel off frequently. Add a small hose clap on the center clip and adjust the tightness so you can clip it off easily by hand from inside. The thing was driving me nuts while testing the acoustics of the panel.




The NB-eLoop B14-3 (140mm) is pushing more air than I expected. I'm testing out different resistors on the negative terminal to slow it down. Right now it seems 20 ohms is the optimal resistance and it's running at about 8.7v.  I need some recommendations for the right resistor wattage and whether I should put a fuse in. Any recommendations?


With the resistor setting the 800mhz super quite now even with the panel off (the side panel isolates a lot of noise), yet when I feel the air flow with my hand compared side-by-side to the Sensflow in the 733mhz, it feels about 1.5-2 times greater. The key is the larger 140mm fan blades that push more air. By sizing up your fan you automatically get more air flow with less dBA.

I wouldn't suggest this size fan unless you plan to mod it with some resisters to slow it down to preference. If you want a plug and play fan try something else. If you want optimal air flow with the least noise, than consider it.

@DieHard I'm looking at the SilenX, but beforehand I want to figure out how to get the PSU dustproof while optimizing airflow. The excess airflow from NB-eLoop B14-3 might allow me to add dust filters in certain areas. 

@IIO I'd like to go SATA but it's hard to find the PCI cards. I'd prefer an internal/external card. I might go IDE until I find something.

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #48 on: March 26, 2019, 12:49:51 PM »
if u want a pci card for sata contact max1zz on this site and he can make you one from a sil3112 card
requires soldering a new rom chip on the card + flashing it

Offline AlphaMac

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #49 on: March 26, 2019, 10:13:16 PM »
I snipped out the steel grill on the PSU case. It creates a bit of noise and slows the fan down a bit. It's useless. The outer plastic grill is good enough.



@macStuff Thanks. I'll check it out. But I did read a post about it having some problems on 2001 QS.

Offline macStuff

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #50 on: March 27, 2019, 10:56:37 AM »
hmm ok you may be right there as i have a 2002 quicksilver i think, and mine has never had a problem with it but i do recall reading that some had an issue with it working properly on a QS.
mines a 933mhz. i have a number of the pci cards myself; and they do offer much improved performance over the built in disk controllers.
so much so that i would probably just circumvent by getting a different g4.  you could probably easily find a 2002 qs motherboard to replace the 2001 i would think?

Offline AlphaMac

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #51 on: April 01, 2019, 07:01:53 PM »
I purchased an OWC 250GB IDE-to-SSD for starters. I need a reliable setup right now and don't want to take any risks with a PCI card until I have it setup as a secondary drive and see it working properly.

Now I have to figure out how to migrate everything from HDD to SSD.

Offline AlphaMac

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #52 on: April 02, 2019, 08:15:34 PM »
Here's the OWC 250GB installed. It only sees 128GB. I'm not sure about the 'B' board theory. Unless I'm forgetting to do something.

It's a lot quieter and cooler now with the HDD out.


Offline DieHard

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #53 on: April 03, 2019, 03:01:07 PM »
You have to use the drive setup with 9.2.2 to get past 128GB

Offline AlphaMac

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #54 on: April 03, 2019, 07:46:05 PM »
@DieHard I'm on 9.2.2. I'm not sure what you mean by drive setup. Is it not just plug and play?

Offline DieHard

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #55 on: April 04, 2019, 05:53:13 PM »
Here she is. It's a B board. It was from a local seller. I drove as fast as I could when he told me it was a B board.

I just need to confirm if I can swap out this drive for my old drive. I read some posts online and it says this was only possible with OS9 as OSX and later versions need need to recognize hardware. Any thoughts


With the B Board and The apple Drive Setup version V2.1 (included with Mac OS 9.2.2) you should be able to see more than 128GB

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #56 on: April 06, 2019, 08:12:44 PM »
Man that worked like a charm. I switched the drives and it fired right up with no problems.

Now I have to figure out what internal drives to install and whether to go PCI or IDE.


PCI would of course include an upgrade to a controller which can see bigger drives, with SATA up to 2TB.
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Offline AlphaMac

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #57 on: April 07, 2019, 10:00:56 AM »
@DieHard It only sees 128GB. I'm running 9.2.2 and using Drive Setup V2.1. In the Apple System Profiler it reads size as 137.42GB and capacity at 128GB.

@IIO It's hard to find compatible PCI cards. I'll have to keep looking at snipe one where I can.

----

I went with the Noiseblocker M8-3 NB-Multiframe for the PSU fan. This fan met my criteria best and has a rubber frame to reduce noise/vibrations. I felt it was needed for where it mounts on the PSU. There isn't many options.

With that extra PSU I have -- I'm going to try mounting the fan on the outside rear case so that it pushes air forward and out the rear port. It might be just as effective and keep more wind noise inside the box.

-AlphaMac


Offline DieHard

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #58 on: April 08, 2019, 09:11:30 AM »
Quote
@DieHard It only sees 128GB. I'm running 9.2.2 and using Drive Setup V2.1. In the Apple System Profiler it reads size as 137.42GB and capacity at 128GB.

Please give us the firmware version of your board... something is not making sense

Offline AlphaMac

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #59 on: April 08, 2019, 11:00:23 AM »
@DieHard My specs..


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upgrading a quicksilver mac questions . CPU and HDD Interface?
« Reply #60 on: April 09, 2019, 04:48:34 AM »
Ok so I have this recently acquired G4 that's clocked at 867mhz..  I was looking around and I saw this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Power-Mac-Quicksilver-G4-933MHz-Processor-CPU-820-1344-A-TESTED-933/192879911206?epid=1204738576&hash=item2ce889e126:g:s~gAAOSwaP5cpT68

933mhz card.. not a big upgrade, but i figure its still only another $30..

then I saw this thing, a dual G4 card.. not as cheap.. but its two CPUs..  clocked at 1ghz.. so is this something could be installed?   would it still be OS9 friendly?  (IE no hacking)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Mac-Quicksilver-G4-1-0Ghz-Dual-Processor-DP-CPU-820-1324-A-Heat-Sink/192872273132?epid=1400243259&hash=item2ce81554ec:g:~TYAAOSwDXFcm-gM

I'm just looking to make this machine as fast as it can be while being cost considerate..  $100 is a bit much for a relatively small gain in speed, but maybe one will come along cheaper..  or don't bother because it won't even be utilized by OS9


Also, another question about upgrading..  These computers still use IDE HDD right?  I'm looking to move to SSD drives with a caddy..  (Mostly for noise in my music studio, but also reliability reasons).  just need to shop around for a good IDE adapter and making sure I buy the right kind. 


Thanks!
Caleb

Offline part12studios

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Re: upgrading a quicksilver mac questions . CPU and HDD Interface?
« Reply #61 on: April 09, 2019, 05:01:03 AM »
would this be what i'm looking for?  I want to buy standard modern SSD Sata drives to replace the internal HDD I have in there..

https://www.ebay.com/itm/7-15-Pin-SATA-SSD-HDD-Female-to-2-5-44Pin-IDE-Male-Adapter-for-Laptop-LW/253896916102?epid=24016962850&hash=item3b1d6f7c86:g:eAUAAOSwaelbqy85

I'd be looking to but a couple of 120gb SSD drives to use like this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Kingston-A400-120GB-SATA-III-2-5-Internal-Solid-State-Drive-X-SA400S37-120G/133003757863?epid=6026728666&hash=item1ef7a44927:g:rB4AAOSwq2JbhyRU

This should cut down a significant amount of noise coming from my device because those old HDD were noisy.. 
 

Offline DieHard

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #62 on: April 10, 2019, 09:31:07 AM »
OK... so I am at a loss

From your serial number you definitely have a 2002 Quicksilver; the total production run was Jul 18, 2001 - Aug 13, 2002...
your particular unit was built in March of 2002 and sources state...
Quote
These were the first Macs to officially support hard drives over 128 GB on the built-in Ultra ATA/66 (ATA-5) hard drive bus, although reader reports indicate that the earlier Quicksilver model sometimes does so, depending on the logic board installed.
Quote
The Power Macintosh G4 (Quicksilver 2002) series is very similar to the "Quicksilver" series that it replaced -- both share an identical case design, for example -- but the Power Macintosh G4/933 (Quicksilver 2002) and Power Macintosh G4/1.0 DP (Quicksilver 2002) -- have faster processors with faster DDR SDRAM level 3 caches. Additionally, all Quicksilver 2002 models support hard drives larger than 128 GB

You also mentioned you actually checked the Logic board and it indeed is a "Rev B" QS Board which also supports over 128GB

One thing that should be noted, if you make the volume over 200GB OS 9 will not boot, so...

1) Did you make try to make a 190 GB Partition and a second partition, or did you try the entire 256 GB ?
2) Have you tried a standard IDE/PATA Hard drive (although that should not matter)

At the moment, I don't have time to check what the latest firmware for a 2002 QS is, but maybe someone else can chime in

Offline FdB

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Re: QS Firmware & SSD Bridges
« Reply #63 on: April 10, 2019, 06:17:34 PM »
Of the three Quicksilvers here, the 1.67 and the 1.0 GHz models are both running under the exact same firmware. (Should be up to date / the last & latest.) Only difference is the “Software Bundle” noted as 694-4587… whereas these two are SB 694-4682. AND neither of these have HDs larger than 120 GB. Haven’t the time to slap another larger drive into either of them at present… but I’d guess that AlphaMac simply might not have partitioned his 250 GB drive accordingly?

[The third QS here is the 867 MHz model with an “A” board and presently it doesn’t want to boot OS 9. (So I’m thinking of setting it on fire).] :o Its’ currrent firmware version is 4.2.5f1

Did OWC provide an IDE to SSD “bridge”. (From AlphaMac’s internal pic above.) If so, is there a jumper selection/setting for Master-Slave on that bridge or is it “cable select”? On a QS if you want to add a second drive on that same ribbon cable.… it’s “Master-Slave”. If the second drive is a "traditional" platter SATA (with available jumper settings already on it) then you might not require such settings on zee bridge.

Someone was asking about bridges and I mentioned the Kingwin ADP-06 but the “other one” (that I could not remember at the time) is the Addonics - ADSAIDE (“SATA-IDE/ATAPI Converter”). A bit pricier but it does have the jumper options for Master - Slave - Cable Select.

AND just saw this one mentioned by rpschultz13 & refinery - which looks like the Addonics but slightly less expensive: https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-Drive-Optical-Adapter-Converter/dp/B00EOJNGC2/ref=sr_1_3
« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 06:47:27 PM by FdB »
This Must Be The Place

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This Must Be The Place

Offline FdB

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Quicksilver Thread!
« Reply #65 on: April 10, 2019, 06:40:04 PM »
Maybe it is time to combine the three currently active Quicksilver users into one thread here?
 
AlphaMac
rpschultz13
part12studios

Especially concerning hardware, HD upgrades, etcetera. Hmmm? ;)
This Must Be The Place

Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: Quicksilver Thread!
« Reply #66 on: April 10, 2019, 08:29:13 PM »
Looking for MacOS 9.2.4

Offline AlphaMac

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #67 on: April 10, 2019, 09:12:46 PM »
PSU fan is in. No resistor needed. It's very quiet with great air flow. This fan came with a rubber gasket that fits nicely against the steel case. I wouldn't be comfortable going with any less airflow.

I have a Hanna temperature gauge and measured the air out the back port at about 34°C. Seems safe.

If you have a Delta PSU it's a little more complicated to pull the case apart to get the fan in. If you don't care much about cosmetics I definitely recommend cutting out the metal grill. It's too close to the fan blades (making wind noise) and even adds some slight resistance to the rpm.





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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #68 on: April 11, 2019, 12:36:01 AM »
@IIO It's hard to find compatible PCI cards. I'll have to keep looking at snipe one where I can.

i know, same problem, here. i am currently looking for another one.
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline IIO

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Re: QS Firmware & SSD Bridges
« Reply #69 on: April 11, 2019, 12:50:09 AM »
but I’d guess that AlphaMac simply might not have partitioned his 250 GB drive accordingly?

we´re discussing this mystery since years and i can only repeat: i have never seen a 733 with 48 bit controller. or a 733 from a year other than 2001, for that matter. i also dont know of any ATA v.5 with 48 bit support.

and the best way to find it out is to mount a disk. if it shows up as only 128 gb are usable, it is most likely not something else causing this. :)
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline part12studios

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #70 on: April 11, 2019, 02:23:54 AM »
I just got a 867mhz unit.  What model fan is that?  I'm very interested in replacing mine with something quieter..  same with the SSD..  I'm using mine for music and I'd like to take down that Jet engine level noise down considerably. 

I don't know how to check firmware, but here are some stats that might help?

s/n
https://www.dropbox.com/s/t463l2zrkikgj9m/IMG_1198.JPG?dl=0

no FW800
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ycobyfewjffieyj/IMG_1200.JPG?dl=0

came with OSX
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3ifqfzfsxwdx2bs/IMG_1216.JPG?dl=0

more details
https://www.dropbox.com/s/l4gfixmdzupm173/IMG_1217.JPG?dl=0

hdd details
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ebtgpkmv725g8x7/IMG_1218.JPG?dl=0


On a side note, is there a quiet fan for a G4 Sawtooth 450mhz?   the fan noise is strong with this one as well..


Thanks,
Caleb

Offline AlphaMac

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #71 on: April 11, 2019, 09:30:35 AM »
@DieHard @FdB  I reinstalled OS9 with a CD boot and when I partitioned the OWC SSD drive into five parts it only read 128GB. Externally on the firewire port I can read larger drives.

@IIO We're discussing the 800mhz that I purchased. I'm plan to rebuild the 733mhz next and might switch out the board with a faster chip if that's possible.

@part12studios Noiseblocker M8-3 NB-Multiframe. See the specs on post #56. I have x2 DSP PCI cards that add some heat so I went with the M8-3 for airflow. I figured if it was too fast I could add a resistor to slow it down, but this fan was perfect for my purpose. It's only a few feet away and very comfortable for long editing hours. The problem now is that I hear all the other fans in my studio from the audio interfaces and vintage gear.

If you have a stock QS with a SSD you might consider stepping down to a M8-2 if your goal is to make it as quite as possible (without sacrificing too much airflow).

------

I had an old broken LaCie USB drive in the closet and cracked it open. It had a Seagate HDD with an internal SATA connector. So yesterday I picked up a Kingston 120GB SSD at a local store and installed it in the enclosure. It didn't mount at first and was not recognized by the Drive Setup app. Then after a few minutes it mounted but the Drive Setup app still says 'unsupported drive' so I'm not able to partition it, but it still mounts. It's just a temporary transfer/backup drive for now.


Offline FdB

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Re: QS Firmware/ROM updater
« Reply #72 on: April 11, 2019, 11:47:42 AM »
Here we go again… (see above post)

Looking ‘round here AGAIN for the 4.33f2 QS Firmware/ROM updater for those currently in the Quicksilver realm and still cannot find my source.

I’ve found a version 4.48 (for MDDs only) and a version 4.28 for Sawteeth and QS’s wishing to install a NEWERTECH MAXPower G4 processor… but no 4.33f2.

From where does version 4.33f2 originate? Hmm?
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Offline part12studios

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Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
« Reply #73 on: April 11, 2019, 12:04:47 PM »
yea i'm just doing audio and i don't think i'm going to be pushing the CPU super hard all the time..  so quieter over air flow is reasonable.. i don't do long sessions either.. computer is on rarely more than an hour or two at a time and that might be once a week.. most sessions are an hour or less..

i have other things that make some 60hz hum.. but yea by far the computer is the biggest noise generator in the studio.  The only thing louder than the fan is the hard drive being accessed.. you can hear those heads moving / writing stuff..  when recording audio..  I'd like SSD to eliminate that. 

Offline FdB

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Quicksilver Comparison Specs...
« Reply #74 on: April 11, 2019, 12:06:41 PM »
Comparing the "stock" 7.33 MHz to the "other" Quicksilvers....
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