Optical Drive Oddity

[TheGrandPubaa]

I'm using a Mac Mini G4 with an SD to IDE adapter, 64GB SD card, and it's overclocked to 1.5GHZ. I know the optical drive works at least as much as it was able to install OS 9 onto the SD card, but i've noticed odd behavior. For instance, I recently acquired a sealed copy of 4x4 Evo 2 and the disc is sitting in the optical drive, but it isn't showing up in OS 9. Because it isn't showing up in OS 9, I can't install it and I can't actually eject it. I don't have an official apple keyboard at present, so I think there may be some issue with my Logitech K400r wireless keyboard/trackpad combo, because I haven't been able to get into open firmware to run the disc eject command, and holding down the left mouse button to force the disc to eject hasn't worked so far.

I guess my real question here is whether or not this odd behavior(the disc not showing up inside OS 9) could be related somehow to the hacked nature of the install(bugs, missing extensions or whatever)? Has anybody else experienced this?

[IIO]

no it cant be anything releated to OS9 i think. otherwise it would happen with all CDs.

[GaryN]

I recently acquired a sealed copy of 4x4 Evo 2 and the disc is sitting in the optical drive, but it isn't showing up in OS 9. Because it isn't showing up in OS 9, I can't install it and I can't actually eject it. I don't have an official apple keyboard at present, so I think there may be some issue with my Logitech K400r wireless keyboard/trackpad combo, because I haven't been able to get into open firmware to run the disc eject command, and holding down the left mouse button to force the disc to eject hasn't worked so far.

I guess my real question here is whether or not this odd behavior(the disc not showing up inside OS 9) could be related somehow to the hacked nature of the install(bugs, missing extensions or whatever)? Has anybody else experienced this?

What you're describing cannot be related to software. If there's a disc in the drive, it MUST show up on the desktop. If it's unrecognizable, you should be presented with the "This disc is unrecognizable…want to eject it?" message box.
If you're NOT seeing that, the system doesn't "know" there's a disc in the drive - either because it didn't seat properly and trip the microswitch or because that info isn't getting to the System for some reason. That reason could be anything from a loose cable to a fried chip in the drive or as she said, it just isn't in properly…

Point is, just 'cause the CD drive worked before doesn't mean it can't be tweaked now.

You problem now is that even if you can send an eject command to the drive, it might not do anything because it thinks it's empty…but you can try, so:
Since you can boot and run, find the little "eject" app that resided on the "Extras CD" that goes in the Apple Menu or the eject Control Strip item.
I would think either is easily found at Mac Garden. Then you can at least see if that works. Also, wiggle the drive cables & connectors, both data and power - either one can cause this. Got a meter? Make sure there's DC power to the drive.

If none of that works, you're stuck. You'll have to pull the drive and get the disc out the hard way.

Good luck.

[TheGrandPubaa]

The eject disc applets did nothing, so I ended up removing the disc manually - but that was easy, so it's not a big deal. I installed the game just now using a USB optical drive, and that went just fine. My SD to IDE adapter does not feature jumpers, so I do wonder whether or not that has something to do with the problem. However, I installed OS 9 using the internal optical drive to the SD to IDE adapter, so maybe it's something else. Regardless, I will just use the USB drive for the time being if I need to access a disc.

[GaryN]

The one thing you left out of your last reply was if you tried another disc of any kind to determine if the drive has simply stopped working.
Since you have a USB drive and you're using it instead I guess we're just left to guess ourselves?

OK… my guess is the damn thing's busted.

[TheGrandPubaa]

Apart from the OS 9 install CD, no, I haven't tested any additional discs. Yet. My attention is split right now between messing with the Mini and trying to get an iBook G4 cleaned up and running again. I was just wondering if optical drive issues were a side effect of the modified OS 9 install(akin to the freezing mouse issue or the lack of volume control) or if this was a localized issue, and it appears that the issue is restricted to my hardware. So i'll tinker with it and see if I come up with any ideas or solutions.

[TheGrandPubaa]

Took the Mini apart again, turned it on and inserted a random pc formatted CD(in this specific case, it's the install CD for FreeDos). It spun up and mounted on the screen like it's supposed to. I ran "Eject Upper Drive" taken from the OS 9 install CD and my disc popped out(shot out, really, since the dust cover wasn't there to hold it in place). Tried putting it back in while the Mini was still running the same instance and it mounted properly and ejected properly.

I tried putting in 4x4 Evo 2 and it mounted right up. I dragged the 4x4 CD icon to the trash and it ejected like it was supposed to.

I shut down the Mini and turned it back on. The top of the case is still off, but nothing else is disassembled. Nothing else that I can think of is different about my setup(same keyboard/mouse/dvi to vga cable/sound/etc.). 4x4 Evo 2 popped right up again like it should.

Oddity number 2 has occurred. The 4x4 disc is still inserted, I restarted, and instead of shutting down, the watch icon appeared instead of the mouse and did its little spinning animation, but even after the disc spun down, it just sat there spinning(the icon, not the disc). I held the power button and turned the system back on, it did it's startup test because I shut it down improperly, the desktop came back up, and it did the same watch spinning icon. The mouse moves just fine, but I can't click on anything. No keyboard commands seem to work(including my shutdown command mapped to F1). It's been sitting like this for about 5 minutes now, so i'll probably hold the power button and manually remove the disc. I tried putting the OS 9 installer I burned on the Mini back in and it mounted fine; however, now that I restarted with it in the system, it didn't mount when the desktop loaded and the eject commands aren't working.

So, yeah. Odd. Since you are saying nobody else has talked about anything weird about the disc drivers or extensions or any quirks related to the optical drive vis a vis this hacked OS 9 installer, I have to assume it's specific to my system.

[FdB]

Here goes...

From earlier:
None (zip, zero, nada) optical drive problems here with any of the Minis that I’ve installed THE OS 9 upon… and unaware that anyone else (to date) has reported any similar problems either. (I do pay pretty close attention to such Mini-related / reported problems. Perhaps more so, in this case.

And in the interest of complete and total transparency here, TheGrandPubaa got his Mini from moi. So I am very interested in the possible cause(s) of this problem, whether it’s repeatable and the results of further testing with other discs. Perhaps just as one may wonder about the possible relation of the OS 9 install, I wonder about the possible effects and function of the Mini overall, with the lesser-than-original hardware performance from the SD mod install… over the standard performance HD? Again, also considering his overclocking of said Mini… does it now require more power?

Ninester? And/or other Mini overclockers care to comment?
Lots of wondering perhaps, without the results of further testing with other discs?

And now (later), shooting completely from the hip here… a couple of things.
(1). Disk read/write performance. SD mod QuickBench results versus a 5400 RPM conventional HD. Seems that it may be ≥ 25% slower. If this is indeed the case, perhaps basic OS boot and mount instructions are possibly not fast enough with the SD mod as it goes through boots and re-boots, with and without a disc in the drive? AND… see #2.

(2). Power requirements after overclocking. IF the CPU is demanding more from the available power and no adjustments have been made for this, the optical drive might be demanding more than what’s necessary / available or straining, after overclocking’s increased power demands… coupled with all the above?

(3). Maybe the optical drive is dying?

(4). I’ve no clue.

So, as it may be easier to re-install the original HD (as opposed to say, “un-overclocking” the Mini)… I would put the old drive back in and test the optical drive and other general functions as well. Of course, run QuickBench again and save that report to compare to the old HD’s QuickBench new report after its’ re-installation. Then there’s always overclocking reversal.

It just seems that with such sporadic results now with the optical drive (when it worked fine before the SD mod and the overclocking) maybe taking it all back to as close as one can get to “square one” might be the option path to first travel. And an external USB optical always works fine? Send me the internal optical drive and I’ll test it here and/or exchange it for another.

The Mini functions fine and stable otherwise… without a disc in the drive? And, cold boots from total complete shut down without a disc provides an otherwise all stable machine.

Try to insert a disc, only AFTER… one of those dead-stop-off states and total boot.

And of course… there’s your non-Apple mouse and keyboard to consider in conjunction with all of the above. You might be suffering from the “SD-Overclock-Combo-Mambo, Non-Apple-Blues”.

Many variables to consider.
Below, 1.25GHz Mini with a Western Digital 5400RPM conventional drive AND TGP’s previous SD mod results.

ZAP that PRAM! Rebuild that desktop. Cross yer fingers and spit.

[TheGrandPubaa]

I was going to say that I didn't think I could issue the "Zap the PRAM" command with my current keyboard, but then I remembered there's a CR2032 battery I could just pull for a few seconds. Would that be functionally equivalent?

*Quick edit: Pulled the PRAM battery for about 15 seconds, put it back in, started up the Mini, inserted a CD, ejected the CD, put it back in and then restarted; when the desktop loaded the second time, the disc could be heard spinning but it doesn't show up/mount on the desktop, and the eject functions do not work. This could very well be a system instability due to the 1.5GHZ overclock for all I know. I could potentially bridge whichever points dictate the clock speed to be 1.42 GHZ instead, but i'm not sure if I want to try that since everything else seems to be reasonably stable. This isn't meant to be a complaint thread, it's just fascinating and I wonder what it could be. As for testing with the old hard drive, I will see about doing so possibly next weekend, depending on how hectic this week gets.

[FdB]

Not taken as a complaint. I am just as baffled and possibly as challenged by this as you are. There are mentions of increased power requirements and steps taken to “adjust for them” in such overclocking scenarios here… I just can’t remember who or where at present. Perhaps someone else may.

And yes, I am just as curiously interested in the possibilities, fixes and workarounds for such things. (As is the very nature of many here.) You are of course, in unchartered waters, where some of us do occasionally choose to swim. What you may have interpreted as ire, I assure you was not.

Imagine what you are facing… being considered and approached mentally, only through your words and descriptions in abstract… as symptoms and possible solutions are considered.

Much fun (well, sometimes maybe).

Get tired of it… send optical up here and I’ll test it. In the meantime, might work on that mouse keyboard combo. (Later this week.)

And doubt that battery remove and replace will do. Don’t have a Mini torn down to the board to check for PMU reset button location/existence right now, but that might be another option for you. If so, might as well replace that SD with the old HD if you have to tear it down that far. (I can’t see a PMU reset on any pics quickly searched. May not be one.)

Bet you’ve used that optical drive very little since the SD and overclock? Ya “kitchen-sinked” that Mini. SD and overclock most likely in one swell foop or undertaken very close to each other. I think it’s a consequence of the SD mod + overclock. (One or both.) Too many other stable running / fully functioning Minis at present. (As was that one.)

And yup… might be the last breaths of the optical drive but I doubt it. Vee shall see.

[GaryN]

I'm not a Mac tech but I play one on the internet.

I just don't understand why / how you guys are pondering every elaborate complex scenario you can cook up when the odds are probably 95% or better the damn drive is just going bad.
Sometimes the drive "knows" it has a disc in it and sometimes it doesn't. Overclocking and such is a really, really unlikely cause.

It's almost certainly a mechanical or electro-mechanical problem that could be as simple as a loose or bent or sticky switch arm or a cracked solder on the board where said switch connects or similar. Actually a pretty minor little thing if you can find it.

A bench tech would attack this by first quickly looking for something really obvious, like the aforementioned loose wire / bad switch scenario and failing that, he would replace the drive with one known to be good and see what happens. Obviously, this requires a working drive to test with and not having one makes it harder but doesn't change the fact that's probably what it needs.

I have 2 or 3 complete sets of MDD parts I've collected over time that I keep just for spare parts 'cause they're old, shit breaks and stuff is sometimes hard to find. You should do something similar.
I'm NOT trying to pick on anyone here - really. It's just a reality that when you run old-school equipment it's good to have spare parts on hand because you will need them.

[DieHard]

Yeah, kinda siding with Gary on this one...

I like to aprocah this stuff with the Occam's razor approach
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

1) Clean all contacts on Riser Board and Optical connector
Test, if still intermittent...
 
2) Replace Optical drive
Test, if still intermittent...

3) Replace Riser Board
Test, if still intermittent...

Cry and use external FW or USB and call it a day

[FdB]

Fury does the DieHard "coffee spit-take"™... laughs and genuflects out of genuine respect.

I'll fight ya both, gangin' up on me! Meet me after school!

While Gary (and others here) may not be “Mac Techs” per se… yet increasingly far more knowlegeable in the G4 realm than what anyone might ever encounter elsewhere... or especially via current Genius Bar escapades… serious “play” does often ensue.

“G4 what?"

Some of us, are perhaps more hard-headed (i.e. thick?) and willing-to-wallow in all tangential possibilities. “Sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes ya don’t.” DieHard's 1-2-3 approach and Gary's comments are both elegant und most logical. But Chaos Theory is also "a thing". And I remember when Occam was just a kid with that razor of his.

In the meantime, remove the drive and send it to me. Use the USB external for now (as recommended above). I’ll test the internal one and replace it with another if it tests bad.

Never say die! And sometimes... Cry.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IW6Mn0iP8i8

All in fun, on a Monday.

[IIO]

I just don't understand why / how you guys are pondering every elaborate complex scenario you can cook up when the odds are probably 95% or better the damn drive is just going bad.

i could also be the power supply of his house.

i would switch that first, and to be on the safe side i would also freshen the water in the swimming pool and clean up the attic - you never know how things cohere.

there were macminis which didnt boot because in greenland an icicle was falling down from a television tower while sandra was eating sushi at the same time. and it was not even overclocked.

[refinery]

nobody suggested burning sage? 

[FdB]

I’ve not checked their function yet, but I have (2) UJ-846-C DVD+/-RW Dual Layer DVD Rewritable Drives.
Nor have I tested their use in a Mac Mini running OS 9.2.2 …yet.
But, if they do function and are adaptable in the G4 Mini, looks like they could be an upgrade
over the Matshita CD-RW CW-8124 optical drives normally found within the G4 Mini...
(with their added DVD-write capabilities -- which may require OS X and/or a driver “update”?).
Or I could simply switch one of the UJ-846-Cs into a Mini here and send you the CW-8124 from that Mini?

Aware that you may not return to checking your Mini’s optical drive until this weekend
...same goes here, with the UJ-846-Cs.

I never really cared for sushi (or Sandra) in Greenland...
but sage has been burned in the presence of both these drives.
(Home power supply and pool water refresh-ment, notwithstanding.)

Oi, sometimes quite a helpful bunch of characters here.  Har-dee-har-har.

“Attempted” OD comparison .pdf attachments, below. (Maybe.)
I've not yet accepted the notion that you've a bad optical drive.
And... I like pudding. As in: "the proof's in the pudding". 

[DieHard]

STOP DRINKING YOUR COFFEE...

I've not yet accepted the notion that you've a bad optical drive.
And... I like pudding. As in: "the proof's in the pudding". 

Sorry, I couldn't resist... think I've been waiting to use that one for a while

[FdB]

There's a clown born every minute

Et tu, Brute?

[DieHard]

I have several of those hooks in my closet... I will never look at them the same