Author Topic: So....  (Read 531 times)

Offline acelera

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So....
« on: July 13, 2018, 02:16:41 PM »
I got the Studio 5 and a 4 port keyspan sx pci. Will Svp cope well with my TDM/MDD rig? i am quite inspired by GaryN and syntho, so it intrigues me a lot.

Offline GaryN

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Re: So....
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2018, 02:30:15 PM »
You have the foundation for a very good rig. Keep the SVP manual handy as there are a number of little differences that come with marrying SVP to PT. I don't use PT and I have always missed the ability (with Acadia) to scrub audio as you can with TDM. In the very early times (lol) that was barely useable with the average CPU speeds of the day, but your MDD should sound almost like spooling tape back and forth - very handy when editing.

Keep us posted on your progress!

Offline acelera

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Re: So....
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2018, 03:06:33 PM »
I must admit thaf Galaxy and the super special MIDi editing in SVP have tempted me away from Logic 6.43. As i have the white xskey will still be able to call up a number of the emagic classics in TDM form. I plan on using my other interfaces (Emagic) under OMS over the other two serial ports but only if it is an okay idea.

Initial thought is to send smpte from SVP over the Studio 5 to the Unitor 2 input on ny 4 meg ste and achieve a wicked blend of Notator and SVP to conquer all.

My third system is an I7 running my Sonic Core Pulsar II cards and some other bits.

All this with a few racks and desks worth of stuff.

Allegedly could do all this with a laptop but it really doesn't do it for me at all.

Offline GaryN

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Re: So....
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2018, 07:03:11 PM »
Your "best of all worlds" strategy can be done, although it will have hiccups and little hassles along the way, but that's half the fun, right?

I must admit thaf Galaxy and the super special MIDi editing in SVP have tempted me away from Logic 6.43.

True that SVP and Galaxy+Editors are hard to beat, but Logic and Soundiver are pretty formidable too. I do resort to Soundiver for units that Galaxy doesn't handle, of which there are unfortunately more than a few.

Initial thought is to send smpte from SVP over the Studio 5 to the Unitor 2 input on ny 4 meg ste and achieve a wicked blend of Notator and SVP to conquer all.

That would be really cool if it worked, but it's my sad duty to tell you that it won't. SVP will only send MTC, NOT SMPTE in real-time - and that MTC is sent over MIDI. The SMPTE functions on both the Studio 5 and the Unitor are there for striping tape only. If you can get Notator to chase incoming MTC over MIDI it might work, though that may require an entire interface or two by itself. Anytime you have MTC running over MIDI, it MUST have priority over any and all other data, including notes and especially controllers or things will lose sync. Your interfaces will do this automatically, often causing glitches in the note-ons, pitch bends and everything else in the line. Having four serial ports on your Keyspan may come in very handy as it will enable you to isolate the MTC from all other MIDI.

Synchronizing two old-school DAWs on two computers is possible but always a challenge to say the least. Exactly how you might end up achieving it with Notator and SVP I can't say. I can tell you this: It's easier to get the DAWs to just follow incoming code that to both play and "send sync code out to a friend" at the same time.
Although you'll try whatever ideas present themselves, I'll give you a "last resort" which will work. Both SVP/Studio 5 and Notator/Unitor are excellent at receiving incoming SMPTE and converting it to MTC internally (not 100% positive about Notator, but pretty sure). They can then play or record while chasing the code. You can add an external source of SMPTE to then feed to both DAWs, rather than try to get one to be a "master" and control the other as a "slave". That source can be a stand-alone SMPTE generator / synchronizer (which used to be really common, less so now) or a third computer running software that will allow you to use say, one of the Emagic interfaces to send SMPTE from a programmable starting point. Again, this is a "last resort". With a little luck, you'll find a better/easier way.

Allegedly could do all this with a laptop but it really doesn't do it for me at all.

What that would do for you is drive you completely crazy in a very short time. Trying even to see two DAWs and/or editors on one laptop, let alone actually operate them can only happen in a world inhabited only by marketing idiots.

'Till next time…

Offline acelera

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Re: So....
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2018, 04:16:22 AM »
Would the Digidesign Universal slave driver help at all? At least it claims it can send mtc, as well as LTC, VTC and a few others. I have a couple as a result of my TDK system purchases.

Thanks for all your help Gary!

Offline GaryN

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Re: So....
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2018, 05:11:52 PM »
Would the Digidesign Universal slave driver help at all? At least it claims it can send mtc, as well as LTC, VTC and a few others. I have a couple as a result of my TDK system purchases.

Thanks for all your help Gary!
I honestly don't know. I've made it a priority in my life to avoid all things Digidesign ever since the stuff was called SoundTools and that's a long time ago. The slave driver, I think, was primarily made to sync things like VTR's and such (hence the VTC and LTC). You'll just have to try and see what happens.

All I can really say is prepare yourself for a period of frustrating experimentation and hair-pulling. It's all trial and error. My best advice is to keep your actual goal / objective (which I assume is to produce music) in mind and don't get forever hung up on finding clever ways to make all of the lights blink at once just for the sake of seeing that. I remember your comment: "a wicked blend of Notator and SVP to conquer all." That sounds great as long as it doesn't get so complicated that you constantly spend time and energy on making it work that you could / should be spending on actually creating stuff.

Understand, I'm not saying don't try, because heck, you may make it all fall together perfectly and then we'll all want to know exactly how you did it!

Offline Syntho

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Re: So....
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2018, 07:47:03 PM »
Are you trying to sync PT and SVP? My advice is to not do it. Just use SVP for audio + midi, and use PT for strictly audio. Gary is right about pulling your hair out. I tried syncing PT to some other DAWs, and let me tell you, you WILL drive your fist into a wall more than a time or two. It just plain isn't worth it to get them synced. I broke down and started using SVP for its audio whenever I've got audio + midi projects, and only use PT when I'm doing a strict audio transfer, or if I'm just straight up mixing/editing with no midi.

Do yourself a favor and take my advice: DO NOT ATTEMPT IT. I've tried it, and it just isn't worth it.

EDIT: Sorry, I thought the topic was about PT, but I see that you're using Notator on an Atari. My advice still stands, somewhat. I would never try syncing with MTC. Every time I've ever tried it I get... I forget how many seconds, but I believe I tracked it down to like 3.5 seconds or so of a gap or delay between DAWs. It has something to do with the way MTC is programmed. I posted all of my experimentation here from back in the day but I'm not sure which thread it's in.

Really, just do yourself a favor and try to not sync too much stuff unless you HAVE to. You're in for a headache.

Offline macStuff

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Re: So....
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2018, 10:08:59 PM »
my friend in NYC whos been in the industry since the early 80s still swears by SMPTE lockup
aka chrisNova777 aka superNova777 aka geforceG4 | >>> http://www.oldschooldaw.com

Offline GaryN

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Re: So....
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2018, 10:41:12 PM »
my friend in NYC whos been in the industry since the early 80s still swears by SMPTE lockup
Yeah. that's what I was getting at. Vintage DAWs are almost ALL good at chasing SMPTE. The cool rig back in the day before lots of DACs and multichannel interfaces was an 8 or 16-track tape machine with all of your audio tracks with one track striped with SMPTE LTC. You started the tape and the DAW that drove all of your MIDI modules chased it and stayed locked - I still have my Fostex E-8 and I still use it sometimes.

The point is, if you can find, assemble, cobble together a SMPTE generator with a convenient keypad to enter start times, it's easy to get PT SVP, Cubase, Notator etc. to slave to the incoming code as long as you have a Studio x or a Unitor or other SMPTE-reading interface. The DAW "thinks" it's chasing a tape machine and everybody's happy.

Offline acelera

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Re: So....
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2018, 06:04:48 AM »
I have been reading the USD manual as well as SVP's and Notator.

Verified points so far:

- USD is master for my rack 888/1622/adat bridges over superclock (256x)
- USD grabs and sends MTC to the TDM host mac over the dedicated serial port on the Mix Core. This can be setup in Protools or as an OMS object instead if NOT running Protools as your DAW.
- My word clock reference is the Aardsync II which provides a less jittery clock to the USD
- The Unitor 2 will read LTC and hand it over to Notator as MTC. This config is regarded as rock steady.
- When locked to the mac over mtc or set to internal sync the USD will generate MTC on its dedicated mtc out port as well as LTC.

So, in theory, could make it work like this.

- SVP is the master.
- USD gets word clock reference from the Aardsync II and MTC reference from its serial cable that's patched to the Mix Core.
- Atari locks to LTC that is being generated by the USD.

Optionally, the Pulsar PC could receive MTC from thr USD. Perhaps from the studio 5 too... But this is academic. If the TDM/SVP Mac and the Notator Atari are locked in tight, that would be just quite enough.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2018, 10:04:13 AM by acelera »

Offline GaryN

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Re: So....
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2018, 02:48:37 PM »
…and there you go. This is exactly what I meant when I wrote "you'll try whatever ideas present themselves".
This scheme just might work. It may work really well or it may have flaws that reveal themselves in actual use. My money's on the latter because, well, that's just what almost always happens! That's the world of silicon-based creative arts we live in. But that's OK. If there's a problem, you'll sort it out. If it can't be sorted out, you'll try a different approach.

I think you may have an advantage that many who may have tried this in the past didn't and therefore gave up: You have a lot of little "black boxes" i.e. extra interfaces, the slave drivers etc. These are the tools that make this kind of patching-together work by allowing you to actually test different configurations.

I have a hunch you'll make it all happen and when you do, I'll enjoy hearing about it and learning yet another new thing about "old" tech.

Carry on!

Offline Astroman

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Re: So....
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2018, 04:25:35 PM »
similiar experiences here... though with the virtual Adat on Creamware Scope.
It's supposed to be controlled by a hardware BRC remote, but at some point in time it may loose sync for obscure reasons. Which you notice on screen, but not on the hardware display.
It seems to operate, but the tape isn't rolling anymore. (at least I never got it working under Windoze)
But as acelera I'll keep trying, next time under OS9, hoping the serial communication environment is better...