Author Topic: Target Disk mode on unsupported MDD  (Read 543 times)

Offline GaryN

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Target Disk mode on unsupported MDD
« on: July 05, 2018, 06:03:49 PM »
I had a discussion with someone on FB who says his FW800 MDD is no longer recognized in Target disk mode since he installed the unsupported OS9.
He says it will boot into TD mode but is not "seen" by any of 4 other machines he has: a G3, a Gigabit G4, a G5 and a 2012 MacBook Pro.
The FW seems to work fine otherwise and the MDD can "see" the other machines - it just "disappears" in target disk mode.

He is using a FW400-to-800 adapter plug but it doesn't seem to cause a problem if used between two of the other machines.

He wonders if something has been altered in ROM by the OS9 hack to cause this. The one thing unverified is whether the MDD was visible in TD mode before the OS9 install, but it's too late now without trying to "go back' and undo everything.

Can anyone with an unsupported post-mod FW800 MDD verify it is seen properly in TD mode please and,
does anybody know anything that could explain this or has he found a previously unrecognized issue with the OS9 install?

Offline IIO

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Re: Target Disk mode on unsupported MDD
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2018, 04:32:08 AM »
...what if you use the "regular" 400 port? (since no "changes" have been made for those at all)
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline Fury deBongo

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Re: Target Disk on unsupported MDD
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2018, 10:05:40 AM »
Hey Gary,

If no one gets to this sooner, I’ve both varieties of MDD FW800 machines
(one without the unsupported OS9 installed… and one with) that I can
possibly test later on tonight / tomorrow. Seems to stand to reason (as
stated by IIO above) that perhaps the FW400 should-could-might work,
regardless. However, I’ll attempt both ways on both machines using the
FW800 to FW400 adapter cable AND a FW400 to FW400 cable.

My apologies, as I am more brain dead / pre-occupied than normal :o
prepping for a freakin’ tax appeal and I’d much rather have my head
into the machines. It's nap time!
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Offline GaryN

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Re: Target Disk mode on unsupported MDD
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2018, 03:24:51 PM »
...what if you use the "regular" 400 port? (since no "changes" have been made for those at all)
Same result on any/all.
…Seems to stand to reason (as stated by IIO above) that perhaps the FW400 should-could-might work, regardless.
This is one of those where it's difficult to get a precise reading of exactly what's going on - too many variables plus responses using "it" instead of specifying exactly which machine etc. so I have to keep asking over and over to be certain what's being said - but the question is: A FW800 MDD simply won't show up in target mode after the OS9 installation - period; true or false?

Offline Fury deBongo

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Re: Target Disk mode on unsupported MDD
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2018, 05:51:28 PM »
MDD with “unsupported OS 9” installed won’t even boot into target disk mode here.
Holding the T-key at startup results in the machine just shutting down.

Checked both FW400 ports for function and it wouldn’t even recognize VST 10GB
FW400 external drive at first. Hooked up the behemoth EZ-Quest FW400 external
and it mounted immediately. Rebuilt desktop & then it would mount the VST too.

Wondered about Open Firmware command to auto-enter Target Disk Mode on
restart and a quick search threw many flags concerning possible Open Firmware
password being enabled… explaining as “primary reason” why no target disk mode.
But, have yet to explore this any further.

Tested on MDD FW800 1.42GHz and both FW400 ports work with external
FW400 drives. Did not check the FW800 to FW400 cable use. (The MDD
would not recognize or mount a G4 laptop booted in Target Disk Mode.)
Only the bare OS is installed on this MDD. No apps and no OSX.

I’ll continue this on breaks this weekend (from my long columns of numbers).
Sorry not better news, yet.
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Offline IIO

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Re: Target Disk mode on unsupported MDD
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2018, 05:04:26 AM »
Quote
This is one of those where it's difficult to get a precise reading of exactly what's going on - too many variables plus responses using "it" instead of specifying exactly which machine etc. so I have to keep asking over and over to be certain what's being said - but the question is: A FW800 MDD simply won't show up in target mode after the OS9 installation - period; true or false?

you didnt specify much either: are you sure you are using a sufficient OS? i.e. do you have the "universal" OS on the other machine, too?

when i didnt miss anything serious, it should normally work to boot over firewire between machines running the universal (or any other "same" OSes).
i just wonder how we can get this some day to work with minis and unsupported tibooks.
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline macarone

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Re: Target Disk mode on unsupported MDD
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2018, 07:30:52 AM »
I have owned several MDD beginning shortly after the first model was released. These have always been a "problem" model from the beginning, needing various "mods" beginning with the fans, the power supply etc. From the first, switching from OS 9 to OS X even on models supporting OS 9 was a problem. For eg: holding the X key to boot into OS X never worked.

Firewire ports and Target mode were always flaky.

One thing that HAS always worked fine in both supported (FW 400 models) and unsupported models (FW 800) has been SATA PCI cards and IDE to SATA adaptors. No problems booting into OS 9 using SATA.

BUT: Target mode will work ONLY with hard drives connected to the IDE ports.

FireWire problems are often resolved by unplugging the power cord, holding the power button down for 5 secs, and replugging the power cord. Sometimes unplugging the power cord overnight if that doesn't work helps.

And different FireWire cases produce different results, also cases that worked often stop working even though the hard drive is fine, and will mount if removed and put into a different case/dock.

Offline GaryN

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Re: Target Disk mode on unsupported MDD
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2018, 03:26:39 PM »
I’ll continue this on breaks this weekend (from my long columns of numbers).
Sorry not better news, yet.
Thanks Fury. It's kinda looking like this is an issue that nobody's noticed before…

Offline DieHard

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Re: Target Disk mode on unsupported MDD
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2018, 11:35:20 PM »
I have owned several MDD beginning shortly after the first model was released...
Firewire ports and Target mode were always flaky.

Wow, never heard that one, let's clarify, FW Disk mode on an MDD 2003 FW400 Single or Dual will work 100% of the time, I literally used to do that to prep dozens of machines back in the day.  Now as for FW800 MDD, always loaded OSX via optical, so maybe an issue ?

BUT: Target mode will work ONLY with hard drives connected to the IDE ports.

Yes... kinda makes sense, you are turning the entire mac into an eternal FW have drive, so connecting other items to it, like other FW drives will not work in FW target mode; as far as internal SCSI drives, they use a card with it's own BIOS, so again will be invisible; items need to be connected to the logic board when turning you mac into an external Hard drive via FW target.  As a tech, this feature has "saved the day" too many times to count.

Seems like Metropahge may have alluded to this problem with the FW800 MDD back in 2016:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,3242.msg20625.html#msg20625

Lastly, since nanopico said:
Quote
Target disk mode doesn't rely on the OS, it's entirely in firmware.
The way to fix this issues on an MDD 800 may be to burn the FW400 firmware on a FW800 MDD, this is what many did BEFORE we made our famous boot disk for the FW800.  Somebody should PM a member with a FW800 unit running FW400 firmware and see if target mode works.  Also, if resetting the PRAM of a FW800 MDD that has not been modified and trying Target mode does NOT work, then that would make no sense since our modified ROM does not alter firmware at all, so a PRAM reset should put the unit back to "normal"
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 11:47:30 PM by DieHard »

Offline GaryN

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Re: Target Disk mode on unsupported MDD
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2018, 03:05:01 PM »
The way to fix this issues on an MDD 800 may be to burn the FW400 firmware on a FW800 MDD, this is what many did BEFORE we made our famous boot disk for the FW800.  Somebody should PM a member with a FW800 unit running FW400 firmware and see if target mode works.  Also, if resetting the PRAM of a FW800 MDD that has not been modified and trying Target mode does NOT work, then that would make no sense since our modified ROM does not alter firmware at all, so a PRAM reset should put the unit back to "normal"
PRAM reset didn't do it. He did try the latest FW800-associated firmware update he could find (no, I don't know what ver.#)
I'll have him try the FW400. Any particular ver.# you prefer?

I just had a flash: Of all of the questions I asked, I didn't ask exactly where his boot disk was connected. So, does FW Target Mode just "find" the drive with the startup volume or does it have to be on the ATA 100 bus? Again, the MDD indicates it's in FW Target Mode - floating icon etc. - but nothing appears to the machine connected to it. Should the startup volume be able to be seen on either ATA bus?
I would test this myself but I can't get to my MDD at the moment…

Offline IIO

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Re: Target Disk mode on unsupported MDD
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2018, 05:28:05 PM »
then that would make no sense since our modified ROM does not alter firmware at all

yes, somehow not possible to dismiss ...

Quote
where his boot disk was connected. So, does FW Target Mode just "find" the drive with the startup volume or does it have to be on the ATA 100 bus?

...it works with optical drives, too, isnt it?

i have no clue but i would think that a computer in disk mode also knows about its currently chosen system folder (since that is stored in PRAM). and the other machine probably just asks her politely about this.
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline GaryN

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Re: Target Disk mode on unsupported MDD
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2018, 05:35:10 PM »
i have no clue but i would think…
Not exactly the quality of an answer I was hoping for…

Offline IIO

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Re: Target Disk mode on unsupported MDD
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2018, 07:28:06 PM »
why, is it still to precise for you? :D
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline Fury deBongo

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Re: TDM / unsupported MDD
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2018, 07:34:59 PM »
The way to fix this issues on an MDD 800 may be to burn the FW400 firmware
on a FW800 MDD, this is what many did BEFORE we made our famous boot disk
for the FW800.

Well, someone provide that FW400 Firmware, along with brief instructions on implementation.

I did install OS 10.4 and attempt TDM via the System Preferences - Startup Disk TDM choice.
Same results, it restarted and promptly shut itself down after a few seconds. Open Firmware
noted Boot ROM version as 4.6.0f1 and OS 9.2.2 Apple System Profiler noted: Mac OS ROM
10.2.1 (Generic).

It still mounts various FW drives using both FW800 and FW400 ports.
Off of the table now, or I'd check the FW version number currently installed.

I've spared details of many other sordid  tests from this weekend. ;)
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Offline GaryN

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Re: TDM / unsupported MDD
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2018, 09:20:47 PM »
I did install OS 10.4 and attempt TDM via the System Preferences - Startup Disk TDM choice.
Same results, it restarted and promptly shut itself down after a few seconds. Open Firmware
noted Boot ROM version as 4.6.0f1 and OS 9.2.2 Apple System Profiler noted: Mac OS ROM
10.2.1 (Generic).

It still mounts various FW drives using both FW800 and FW400 ports.
Off of the table now, or I'd check the FW version number currently installed.

I've spared details of many other sordid  tests from this weekend. ;)
Thanks F.

Offline DieHard

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Re: Target Disk mode on unsupported MDD
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2018, 11:41:53 PM »
From Blitter back in 2014 on our forum:
Quote
Created an account here just to pop in and say that I have just solved this problem on my own retail MDD G4 FW800. My G4 now dual-boots between OS X Tiger and Mac OS 9.2.2, and both systems are recognized by the Startup Disk control panel. I had formatted its internal drive by using a surrogate iBook + USB enclosure and OS X Jaguar, allocating 1GB at the beginning of the drive for an OS 9 partition, leaving the rest for OS X. I also checked the "Install OS 9 drivers" box in Disk Utility so that the drive could be booted later on. I then installed OS X Tiger first as an escape hatch in case of OS 9 instability, though so far with the exception of a third-party SCSI card preventing it from booting, it has been running without any problems.

Essentially what locks native OS 9 support out of these machines, as has been suggested above, is that Open Firmware does not recognize "Mac OS ROM" as a valid tbxi file as of at least version 4.6.0, which is what the FW800 ships with. Since the FW800 and the earlier FW400 are so close in spec, I suspected that an earlier version of Open Firmware from the FW400 model would be close enough to at least boot the FW800 into OS X. Fortunately a firmware update is available from Apple for the FW400 models to fix a fan issue, bringing their firmware to version 4.4.8f2. However, Apple's firmware updaters refuse to flash the Boot ROM unless the current version is older than the desired upgrade. So, I worked around that by forcing an upgrade through Open Firmware itself. Here's how to do it on a FW800 with OS X already installed on a second partition:

- Download and install the 4.4.8f2 updater from https://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/10773/apple-g4-firmware-updater-x
- Open the bundle by right-clicking (or control-clicking) on the PMG4FirmwareUpdate.app file inside /Applications/Utilities and choosing "Show Package Contents."
- Navigate to Contents/Resources and drag the "Firmware" file to the root of your startup disk.
- Make note of the partition number of your startup disk-- this is important for the next steps. On a freshly-formatted drive with OS 9 drivers, the first visible partition is 9, which in my case meant my second visible partition with OS X installed was partition number 10.
- Reboot the Mac and hold down Command-Option-O-F to boot to Open Firmware.
- Enter the following two commands, substituting your partition number after the "hd:"
    load hd:10,Firmware
    go

- With luck, the white Open Firmware prompt will disappear and you'll soon see an OS 9-style progress bar at the bottom of the screen as the Boot ROM is being flashed.
- After the Mac automatically restarts, install OS 9 using the special version for the MDD FW400 (OS9General.dmg). The OS 9 System Folder should be visible and selectable using the Startup Disk preference pane.
- Enjoy. :)

I really believe that this should make a FW800 "act" like a FW400 and thus make Target FW mode operate "correctly"... but please do at your own risk.  These tricks may render some hardware useless and that is why the iMic modified ROM was so exciting.  Burning firmware was the "brute force" method of making unsupported G4s boot to OS 9, our more civilized methods do NOT mess with the hardware :)

FULL INFO HERE:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=762.75

Offline DieHard

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Re: Target Disk mode on unsupported MDD
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2018, 11:51:00 PM »
Was so long ago, that I forgot that snakecoils instructions were much better:
Quote
Success! :-) GREAT SUCCESS! :-)

I have found the way to start the firmware downgrade: I were right when I said a step was missing, I found the answer reading this page on Apple site

https://support.apple.com/kb/DL1175

If you look at point 3 of the article it say:

Press and hold in the Power button until you hear a long tone or see the Power button light flashing repeatedly. Release the Power button when you hear the tone or see the Power button light flashing. The update starts automatically.

And this is exactly what is needed to do: starting the Mac keeping pressed the power button! :-)

In brief here are the steps to follow:

1) Copy the Firmware file extracted in the way Blitter has said some posts ago, no matter about the OSX installed, a blank initialized partition is good. If the partition is the first in Disk Utility list its number should be 10

2) Shut off the Mac and be prepared to do the following steps as quick as possible

3) Press and keep pressed the front Power Button until it flashes, or until you hear a continuous tone

4) Release the Power Button and be prepared to press the key combination to enter Open Firmware (Cmd + Alt + O + F)

5) When you hear the Boing sound of reboot keep pressed the Open Firmware keys until the prompt comes out

6) At the prompt enter the following line

load hd:xx,Firmware

where, of course, the "xx" is the number of the partition where the "Firmware" file is

7) At the next prompt digit

go

8) The screen becomes black, the progress bar appear and the CD tray is ejected

9) When progress bar has reached the end the Mac reboots, the CD tray close and you have an OS9 bootable FW800 PowerMac :-)

The Info panel reports correctly 4.4.8f2 as firmware version and the OS9 boot is available as option in Startup Disk preference panel. I used the OS9General.dmg extracted from the Install disks of my other FW400 MDD.
OS9 boot went fine, I skipped the annoying registration screen pressing CMD + Q and everithing seems ok.
For who is interested in the FW800 port I can confirm it works well under OS9 but I don't know about its speed in this environment if someone has some disk benchmark tool to suggest I will be happy to do some test. In OSX 10.4 the speed is full 80 Mb/s, I have tested it with Xbench and obtained 76 Mb/s with an old 320 Gb Seagate Freeagent powered directly from Firewire 800 port.
I don't know anything about the Bluetooth and Airport Extreme functionality since I haven't these devices.
I will perform further tests in the days to come but until now I am really really happy! :-)

About the firmware upgrade back to 4.6.0f1 I don't know... I accepted the risk of downgrade because this FW800 machine was abandoned in my Mac stuff from long time but if the MDD is a tool of your job I can't reccomend to do this step until you are absolutely sure that none of the functionality is missed or altered.

If Blitter has performed this modification long time ago maybe he can share with us his experience. Here all seems to work very well! :-)

Enjoy!

Offline Fury deBongo

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Re: Target Disk mode on unsupported MDD
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2018, 09:38:43 AM »
Unsatisfied completely with previous repetitive TDM results of the 1.42 GHz MDD
FW800 here… a FW800 1GHz MDD is now on the table. Running OS 10.4 and
TDM-booting and being recognized by other G4s… und connected external
FW drives are all working a-ok. Same 4.6.0f1 Boot ROM version noted on
the 1GHZ. No OS 9 (unsupported) or otherwise (Classic ¿) present and
no expansion cards of any sort.

Will install unsupported OS 9 later and see if that might thwart it
from being recognized by “others” and/or booting into TDM with
the “unsupported” OS 9 install… in an effort to replicate Gary's
reported TDM "non-performance".

And then… (if TDM falters) may attempt Firmware downgrade from the
info graciously provided here by Herr DieHard - concerning Blitter &
snakecoils relative downgrade approaches (circa 2014).
Thanks DH.
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Offline GaryN

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Re: Target Disk mode on unsupported MDD
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2018, 02:03:38 PM »
I really believe that this should make a FW800 "act" like a FW400 and thus make Target FW mode operate "correctly"... but please do at your own risk.  These tricks may render some hardware useless…
I have a feeling that this may be where the patient has an epiphany re: just how important it really is to him to have the damn thing able to enter TDM anyway.
Risk vs. reward…

I'll let you know what happens.

Offline Hyram

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Re: Target Disk mode on unsupported MDD
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2018, 03:04:08 PM »
One thing I recall about TDM and the MDD was that you only got whatever was connected to the ATA/100 (rear) connector available over FireWire TDM - whatever is on the optical bays connector, on the ATA/66 (front) connector or in a slot wouldn't be available. G4-books and the Mini, yes, you got the optical drive, but not the towers. At least, I never had anything not on the closest-to-the-CPU 40-pin appear over TDM.

Also, some PCI cards (eg poorly-coded SCSI host controllers - I'm looking at you, ACARD!) could play merry hell with TDM.
"What's your opinion Brains?" "I'm afraid music in the modern idiom is too repetitive for my taste, al-although the rhythm has a certain hypnotic effect."

Offline macarone

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Re: Target Disk mode on unsupported MDD
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2018, 04:11:04 PM »
>Wow, never heard that one, let's clarify, FW Disk mode on an MDD 2003 FW400 Single or Dual will work 100% of >the time, I literally used to do that to prep dozens of machines back in the day.

It's been corroborated that SATA drives connected via either a PCI card OR an ATA to SATA adaptor are not only recognized, but will boot an MDD.

If you only have drives connected via a PCI card, and NO drive connected to the ATA 100 port, the MDD will shut down shortly after you try to enter TDM.

It was often reported that, a FW400 MDD would fail to mount an external FW drive, and the solution was to disconnect the power cable, etc. to reset FW in the MDD.

This drive enclosure looks nice:

     https://oyendigital.com/hard-drives/store/CB3R2-SL.html

     https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4085999

It has the advantages that it accepts any height 2.5" laptop drives, of any size, including 2 TB, and in addition to RAID 0 and RAID 1 it also does JBOD and BIG. It runs from FW computer bus  power without the power adaptor.

BUT: An MDD will recognize it as a bootable FW drive in Startup Disk OS 9 or OS X, however, it will in fact NOT boot.

WORSE, and I know this sounds flaky, but after trying to boot Leopard from this device, you will find that the Leopard partition has been corrupted. Partitions containing only OS 9 or Tiger remain intact.

This case only works right if it is plugged in AFTER the computer has already booted.

Funnier still, some on Windows PCs, have also reported not being able to boot from it using USB, FW or eSATA. The company denies all problems.

Offline GaryN

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Re: Target Disk mode on unsupported MDD
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2018, 05:26:48 PM »
This is turning my brain into a pile of mush. We now have two more conflicting opinions.
Hyram "agrees" that only drives on the ATA100 bus will be seen in TDM and Macarone says they "work 100% of the time" but doesn't specify the bus.
I can't be certain that he means no bus issues or he just never had a problem
This is what's been happening to me the entire time I've been trying to figure this out - just enough non-specific uncertainty to prevent a definite answer.

Fury deBongo: My friend! (and person who actually has a machine out in "test mode"
Can you confirm this one way or the other: Can your MDD be "seen" in TDM with the boot drive on the ATA66 bus?

My head hurts…

Offline Fury deBongo

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Re: TDM - unsupported MDD
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2018, 05:58:35 PM »
Fury deBongo: Can you confirm this one way or the other:
Can your MDD be "seen" in TDM with the boot drive on the ATA66 bus?

My head hurts…

Give me an hour or two (maybe less)
and I'll get down there and check that specific question out.

And yes, my head also hurts.
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Offline DieHard

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Re: Target Disk mode on unsupported MDD
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2018, 06:10:26 PM »
Quote
Wow, never heard that one, let's clarify, FW Disk mode on an MDD 2003 FW400 Single or Dual will work 100% of >the time, I literally used to do that to prep dozens of machines back in the day.

Hey Gary, I think he was simple quoting me...

And yes, as I explained, the FW target mode (sending commands to the hardware programmed via the firmware) is limited to disk I/O connected to the logic board, which makes sense. Yes "back in the day" we did not use SATA PCI cards, we used PATA/IDE mechanical drives.

These days SATA SSD drives connected vis SATA/IDE adapters (where we are still connecting to the MB IDE channels) are fine and all legacy IDE drives should work 100% of the time. 

But "back in the day" FW 800 MDDs were NOT running OS 9 and my company was making OS 9 DAWS so I cannot comment on them.  But the FW400 2003 model was rock solid as far as the target mode.

Also, as we surmised SCSI drives connected to PCI cards in MDD is a source of confusion since many of us veterans remember when there was "SCSI disk mode". which was around prior to FW disk mode. Powerbooks could become external SCSI drives and be connected to the chain to the SCSI port of a beige G3 and such, however SCSI cards in G4 towers render the drives invisible when using the more modern "FW Disk target mode"; we conclude also that any Mac with FireWire added by a PCI or CardBus card, are not supported.

Kinda beating dead a dead horse... just stating the obvious to most, but maybe not to all.  I will say in closing that "FW target mode" when used as intended is NOT flaky and is a life saver.  I did (2) data recoveries today on an ibook g4 and a Mac Pro 2007, both of which I did NOT want to open. They sat on top of a Mac Pro 3,1 running El Cap, and all the data was recovered from 2 machines that no longer boot. 

Offline macarone

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Re: Target Disk mode on unsupported MDD
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2018, 08:41:52 PM »

Kinda beating dead a dead horse... just stating the obvious to most, but maybe not to all.  I will say in closing that "FW target mode" when used as intended is NOT flaky and is a life saver.  I did (2) data recoveries today on an ibook g4 and a Mac Pro 2007, both of which I did NOT want to open. They sat on top of a Mac Pro 3,1 running El Cap, and all the data was recovered from 2 machines that no longer boot.

And using TDM in such a situation often can make the computer that is not bootable run again by running repair utilities on the hard drive.

I was in no way knocking TDM, only cautioning that it only works on drives connected directly or via adaptor to an ATA port. I also tried to explain that a computer in TDM with the FW icon bouncing around the display may not show up on the desktop of an MDD with a frozen FW system, where NO FW external drives are mounted. The fix is to leave the computer in TDM as it is, but to shut down the OTHER computer, remove the power cord, hold the power button down for 5 secs, and then plug the power cord back in and reboot.

Offline DieHard

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Re: Target Disk mode on unsupported MDD
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2018, 08:56:59 PM »
No argument here; We need everyone's experience and opinions :)

I am just glad it exists, nothing like it in the PC world and it has saved my bacon.  Dis-assembling iBooks and removing the entire tops off some macbooks is a drag just to get to the hard drive.  I have recovered data from bad hard drives in iMacs without having to remove the screens, so I am very grateful to apple for at least this making this feature.  Every hard drive dies a different death. In some iMacs the drive literally locks up the unit from Booting to an external hard drive, yet FW mode till works, go figure

Offline Fury deBongo

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Re: Target Disk mode on unsupported MDD
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2018, 09:29:14 PM »
Can your MDD be "seen" in TDM with the boot drive on the ATA66 bus?

In this particular instance,
on this particular MDD (1GHz FW800)
the answer is a resounding NO.

Will not boot into TDM with only a HD on the ATA 66 bus.
Added an OS 9.2.2 pre-loaded HD to the ATA 100 bus,
while also keeping the OS 10.4 HD on the ATA66 and it
then boots into TDM. Haven't checked whether or not
"other machines" can "see it" yet, but without the 9.2.2
HD on the ATA100... it's-a-no-go.

AND, as I just happened to grab a HD with OS 9.2.2
already on it... the fact that it then boots into TDM
(whereas the 1.42 GHz MDD would not) the
"differences" between the two MDDs prompts
further, closer examination? >:(

Later.... that same evening...

AND, now… booting into TDM, the 1GHz FW800 IS
recognized and mounted upon the desktop of a 1.5
GHz PB 5,5 G4. Inversely, the FW800 does the same
in reverse, except the PB is unseen / unmounted when
booting the MDD in 9.2.2. BUT, it does see the
PowerBook when the MDD is booted in OS 10.4.
(MDD's 10.4 HD, still on that ATA66 bus.)

Whatever is going on with that FB person, Gary…
it sounds related to whatever is happening here
with my (first tested) 1.42GHz MDD FW800.

The 1GHz FW800, seems to work just fine in TDM.
(Running same Open Firmware version as the 1.42GHz.)

This “patient” may never attempt the Open Firmware
FW400 “regression therapy” for his ailing 1.42 GHz
FW800 MDD TDM... until the snows fly again.

And doesn’t the old “scuzzy disk mode” still have that
“unclean” ring to it? It did work very well at the time. ;)

I gotta get me another horse!
But, I will swap the drives from the 1GHz into the 1.42GHz
eventually and see if that makes any freakin' difference on
the 1.42GHz. 8)

If it does, I'll report. Otherwise... "crickets".
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 09:45:22 AM by Fury deBongo »
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Offline GaryN

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Re: Target Disk mode on unsupported MDD
« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2018, 12:30:46 PM »
I have a sneakin' feelin' that's exactly what's happening. he's got one drive in the MDD and maybe it's in front - so no go.
He gets a little slack because it's his first MDD, and we all know it takes some hard-learned lesson time to get a grip on the insanity idiosyncrasies of this beloved model.
I'll tell him to move it to the ATA100 and see what happens. If that fails, he'll have to decide if he wants to go to firmware regression-land.
I hoping that this is all it takes though…

You're the best Fury! Many thanks!!

Offline Fury deBongo

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Re:TDM /unsupported MDD
« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2018, 02:24:49 PM »
You know that in this case, TDM stands for:
Taxes-Death-Macintosh?
(Or This Damned Mac.)

Begin-pulling-hair-out-now.
(I am now bald.)

Moved HDs from 1GHz FW800 back to the 1.42GHz.
(10.4 on OWC SSD to ATA66 and conventional HD
with OS 9.2.2 to ATA100.)

Removed battery checked voltage ≥ good. Removed and
replaced with new one anyway. (Same voltage reading).

Booted, holding Option+Command+P+R for the 3 chimes
and it booted from the OWC SSD. Set clock, time zone, etc.
Rebooted, Option-key and selected OS 9.2.2 drive on ATA100
as boot drive. Booted and then shut it down.

Started up again with T-key and it booted right into TDM!
FW800 to 400, 400 / 400 and 800 / 800 all provided mounting
of the OS 9.2.2 drive on the G4 PowerBook running OS 10.4.

Even connected to a Mac mini (FW400) as the G4 PowerBook
did not have OS 9.2.2 present and the mini both recognized
and mounted the conventional OS 9.2.2 HD in TDM, under
both OS 9 and OS X boots of the mini.

However, “No see” or never-saw the OS 10.4 HD.

May-be that macarone's suggestion of unplugging overnight
has some bearing here? Hell, I even did a PMU reset before.

However, it is highly probable that in the first HD config of the
1.42GHz, that OS 9 and X occupied the same HD on ATA 100…
on two separate partitions… and now, under this final dual-boot,
separate HD config on the 2 separate ATA buses… it just freakin’
(as if miraculously) works. (Why no angel-with-halo emoji?)

Thusly:

(1). Perform a fresh “solo” install of the OS 9.2.2 on HD by itself.
        [Placed last (& possibly alone) on the ATA100 ribbon cable.]
(2). Place other, secondary drive (for now at least) on the ATA 66.
        (Format for bare “storage” drive, or install a version of OSX.)
(3). Check & maybe even change battery, regardless of voltage.
(4). Rebuild / ZAP PRAM at startup. Set clock and Time Zone.
(5). Shut down, or restart…
      (a). After choosing TDM boot option in Sys Prefs of OS 10.4.
      (b). OR, by holding down the T-key... if cold booting.

If the above works, then one might then consider moving that
ATA66 HD to the middle position of the ATA100 ribbon cable?
(Unsure of an OWC SSD with ADP-06 bridge, in that position.)
I've been messin' with a Quicksilver & Master/Slave/CS stuff.

OR… simply install a fresh battery, rebuild/ZAP and try it again!
                But most definitely, OS 9.2.2 HD on the ATA100 bus.

And no thanks necessary, Gary. If not for you and that Kaffee
LAH-TAAY-swilling DieHard... such bloviated, MDD exposés as
this would not be here... as I would have simply given up on
my own, first MDD resurrection. Thank... you. ;)
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Offline GaryN

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Re:TDM /unsupported MDD
« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2018, 04:07:16 PM »
And no thanks necessary, Gary. If not for you and that Kaffee
LAH-TAAY-swilling DieHard...
Thanks agin' F.

Offline DieHard

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Re: Target Disk mode on unsupported MDD
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2018, 06:04:38 PM »
Hey Gary,

Fury got me to thinking, ask your guy if ALL hard drives are jumped as "Cable Select" as they should be on all MDDs, Maybe the Target mode expects this.  Maybe it's more of the jumper position than which IDE controller. also, ask if the IDE cable if the factory Apple cable that has a "hole" in one of the lanes, that also designates cable select, maybe the IDE cable has been replaced.

Now the plot thickens on the cable select "hole", I was told by a Seagate rep (back in the day) that the hole was definitely used for cable select feature and now I found this:

Quote
Ultra-ATA 80-conductor cables were introduced to reliably support data transfer rates faster than ATA 2. The additional 40 conductors are grounds, designed to reduce/eliminate noise and crosstalk between conductors. The presence of the hole in a single conductor near the host controller's connector on an 80-conductor ribbon cable doesn't have anything to do with determination of Cable Select. Pin/conductor 34 on an 80-conductor ribbon cable serves two purposes, one of which is to provide the host controller a means of identifying the type of cable being used (CBLID) - either an Ultra-ATA cable with 80 conductors or an older/slower ATA cable with 40 conductors. This is accomplished by connecting pin 34 to ground in the cable's host controller's connector. Beyond the host connector, that conductor must be open - which is the hole that you see in the cable. Between the device connectors, conductor 34 is used by the attached Devices 0 & 1 to communicate with each other. Device 0 sends an Execute Device Diagnostics command to Device 1, and within a pre-determined amount of time, Device 1 must send the PDIAG (passed diagnostics) response to Device 0. If Device 1 has sent a PDIAG signal, it supports ATA-3 or faster protocols. In essence, the purpose of the hole in the cable is to identify whether the cable and connected devices are capable of supporting Ultra-ATA data transfer speeds. Newer Ultra-ATA cables omit the hole, by not having an insulation-piercing tooth at pin 34 in the host connector, and shunting that pin to ground.

To enable the use of the Cable Select jumper setting on connected devices (and when supported by the host controller), the Cable Select (ground) signal is conveyed on conductor 28. The device connected to the end (black) connector detects the ground signal and configures itself as master. Because the insulation-piercing tooth at pin 28 on the middle (grey) connector is missing, the connected device doesn't detect the CS signal and configures itself as slave. Incidentally, reversing an Ultra-ATA ribbon cable shouldn't be done. If the host (blue) connector is attached to a drive and the master (black) connector is attached to the motherboard, the intended CBLID/PDIAG functions of the cable are negated, which will affect drive performance.

So the bold sections are interesting (the rest seems on par with my brain); AFAIK speed negotiation was via the controller and the HD PCB board, this guy says the hole is used for that... hmmm I wish I could half of all the great stuff I forgot :(
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 06:18:13 PM by DieHard »

Offline GaryN

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Re: Target Disk mode on unsupported MDD
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2018, 10:42:19 PM »
Hey Gary,
Fury got me to thinking, ask your guy if ALL hard drives are jumped as "Cable Select" as they should be on all MDDs, Maybe the Target mode expects this.  Maybe it's more of the jumper position than which IDE controller. also, ask if the IDE cable if the factory Apple cable that has a "hole" in one of the lanes, that also designates cable select, maybe the IDE cable has been replaced.
He immediately blew up my guess that his boot drive wouldn't appear because it was on ATA 66. It was on the ATA100. Also, he's tried swapping out other drives from his other G4 front, back, upside-down etc. without success. He has NO trouble booting the damn thing however with any of them: 10.4, 9.2 in any position and the FW bus and functions are completely normal in every other respect. AARRRGH!

I have provided him with the links to the firmware downgrade topics along with a suggestion that maybe he should re-evaluate just how important having target mode on the thing really is to him before starting down THAT road. This has become one of those exercises in futility that pop up now and then. It probably IS a firmware issue since literally everything else has been looked at.

Thanks to all for your efforts - if anything illuminating develops, I'll let you know.

Offline IIO

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Re: Target Disk mode on unsupported MDD
« Reply #32 on: July 13, 2018, 04:46:08 AM »
that would have been a great outcome if it would have been the jumper settings. :)
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline GaryN

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Re: Target Disk mode on unsupported MDD
« Reply #33 on: July 13, 2018, 02:32:16 PM »
that would have been a great outcome if it would have been the jumper settings. :)
Nah…too easy. Where would the fun be?