Author Topic: firewire & usb cards not working in beige g3  (Read 1321 times)

Offline refinery

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firewire & usb cards not working in beige g3
« on: May 19, 2018, 12:08:26 AM »
hi everyone,

having a bit of a weird problem here that i'm getting stumped with. I have a beige g3 minitower which ive been trying to get back to life... had this thing since 2001. Currently, everything is working fine except firewire and usb cards. Ive also got two motherboards, and the behavior is present on both. I should add, I am using a PC power supply, with the jumper set to PS2 on the g3 motherboard. The machine is working fine with other cards, presently an acard 6260m and ati 9250 graphics. Its running a Rev. B ROM. Ive got an intel 40gb ssd with sata/pata adapter running the OS, which is 9.2.2, which boots off the Acard. The drive was cloned over from my beastmode MDD.
The cards *do* appear in system profiler under PCI cards, but there's no USB or Firewire bus shown, and plugging in devices has no effect. Ive plugged in flash drives, keyboards, mice, wifi adapters and none of them seem to get any power, even though the cards ive tried (adaptec 3020 and a siig combo) are both connected to power via molex. the system extensions for usb and firewire are present and enabled according to extensions manager. ive tried both cards in my MDD and my Gigabit G4 and they work fine in those systems. board and pram resets have no effect.

kind of running into a brick wall here repeatedly now for a couple weeks trying to figure out what's wrong here. does anyone have any suggestions? could the fact im using a PC power supply be causing it? unfortunately I dont have the original PSU anymore, at least, I dont think I do. But if the system is working fine otherwise what difference should it make? Should I just look at replacing the logic board?

Thanks for any tips or suggestions anyone might have.
G4/MDD 1.42 (9), G4/GB 500DP (X), Beige G3 400 (9), PBG4Ti 1Ghz (X), PBG3WS 300 (9)

got my mind on my scsi and my scsi on my mind

Offline devils_advisor

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Re: firewire & usb cards not working in beige g3
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2018, 02:32:53 AM »
You need the very last driver version. There is a pack over at macintosh garden. I had the same problem.

Offline IIO

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Re: firewire & usb cards not working in beige g3
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2018, 09:45:58 AM »
i believe any 9.x should support usb and fw via PCI as is, the geneerci deriver was only needed forOS  8.5

but i had trouble with my cards, too, some day. :)
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Offline refinery

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Re: firewire & usb cards not working in beige g3
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2018, 03:32:37 AM »
You need the very last driver version. There is a pack over at macintosh garden. I had the same problem.

well, this half worked. I used the collection of files from "usb card support 1.4.6" and now my USB is working!! hooray!  ;D
its also now shown in system profiler with several USB busses present.

but, with firewire 2.3.3, 2.4, and 2.5, still no change. perhaps I need to have a firewire device connected in order for it to become active?
but I would think it would just show up in system profiler with no devices connected...
im trying to find the firewire adapter for the drive i have....
G4/MDD 1.42 (9), G4/GB 500DP (X), Beige G3 400 (9), PBG4Ti 1Ghz (X), PBG3WS 300 (9)

got my mind on my scsi and my scsi on my mind

Offline refinery

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Re: firewire & usb cards not working in beige g3
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2018, 03:38:07 PM »
so this is still vexing me... i have now tried 5 different firewire and combo firewire/usb cards...
always the same thing. card shows present in a PCI slot, but no firewire bus actually shown, and nothing recognized.
system profiler shows the two extensions are present and loaded, currently 2.8.7. (i dont have authoring support enabled)
are there perhaps other extensions necessary?

I also found a post on here where someone was talking about a 5V fuse or other circuit being blown, which was why his USB wasnt providing power to the attached devices.
i would think if that were the case, neither USB or firewire would work, but could that be a possible culprit?
G4/MDD 1.42 (9), G4/GB 500DP (X), Beige G3 400 (9), PBG4Ti 1Ghz (X), PBG3WS 300 (9)

got my mind on my scsi and my scsi on my mind

Offline GaryN

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Re: firewire & usb cards not working in beige g3
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2018, 06:50:30 PM »
There are TWO FW extensions needed for non-Apple FW PCI cards

"Firewire Enabler" 2.8.7
and
"Firewire Support" 2.8.7  (I'm guessing THIS is what you're missing)

"Authoring Support" is only needed for FW CD or CDRW drives


Offline refinery

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Re: firewire & usb cards not working in beige g3
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2018, 09:33:55 PM »
i will double-check tonight but i'm pretty sure they are both there.
i recall seeing three FW-related items in extensions manager and the authoring support was disabled but the other two were enabled.
G4/MDD 1.42 (9), G4/GB 500DP (X), Beige G3 400 (9), PBG4Ti 1Ghz (X), PBG3WS 300 (9)

got my mind on my scsi and my scsi on my mind

Offline GaryN

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Re: firewire & usb cards not working in beige g3
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2018, 10:46:52 PM »
I'm reading and re-reading all you've written and I'm not sure exactly what you mean re: FW devices.
I get it you tried all kinds of USB stuff but have you actually tried any FW devices with the FW card?

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Re: firewire & usb cards not working in beige g3
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2018, 08:22:46 AM »
good luck hope u figure it out
aka chrisNova777 aka superNova777 aka geforceG4 | >>> http://www.oldschooldaw.com

Offline refinery

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Re: firewire & usb cards not working in beige g3
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2018, 03:11:06 PM »
I'm reading and re-reading all you've written and I'm not sure exactly what you mean re: FW devices.
I get it you tried all kinds of USB stuff but have you actually tried any FW devices with the FW card?

yes, no firewire devices are seen, no drives are mounted, nothing is seen in system profiler. its as if there is nothing there.

in my other OS9 machine, a dual 500mhz G4, when these exact same cards are inserted, in system profiler they show both a firewire/usb card under the PCI slot, and, they show both a firewire and a usb bus in the device tree.

on my beige G3, the card shows up as a firewire/usb card in the PCI slot, but only a USB bus is shown in the device tree.


and i did check, I have both extensions as required in the extensions folder and system profiler shows they are loaded.
G4/MDD 1.42 (9), G4/GB 500DP (X), Beige G3 400 (9), PBG4Ti 1Ghz (X), PBG3WS 300 (9)

got my mind on my scsi and my scsi on my mind

Offline FdB

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Re: firewire & usb cards not working in beige g3
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2018, 03:38:19 PM »
Seems that USB on a Beige G3 is a bit easier to achieve… FireWire on the other hand,
perhaps a bit more problematic. See: http://www.atpm.com/7.12/segments.shtml

Now, suppose that we might need to know which “combo” card you actually have…
and whether or not you’d consider using FWB’s Hard Disk Toolkit?

There’s my two cents. Hope it helps.
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Re: firewire & usb cards not working in beige g3
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2018, 04:05:57 PM »
how many notches are in the firewire/usb cards?
if it has 2 notches the reason it might not be working is because its not compatible with 3.3v rated pci cards and requires a 1 notch 5v pci card
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Offline refinery

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Re: firewire & usb cards not working in beige g3
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2018, 04:08:02 PM »
im willing to try FWB toolkit, i think i may have a copy of it somewhere actually.

cards i have tested:
sonnet tango - had this forever
siig combo card - https://www.amazon.com/SIIG-Firewire-437554-001-437554-002-Combo/dp/B0045JSNLK
adaptec AHA-3020 (not the 3020a)
some junk no-name card ive had forever
Syba SD-FWB-32B

the siig and syba are FW800 cards, i know i would not get FW800 out of them but i would think they would still work as FW400 cards (like they do in the G4)
G4/MDD 1.42 (9), G4/GB 500DP (X), Beige G3 400 (9), PBG4Ti 1Ghz (X), PBG3WS 300 (9)

got my mind on my scsi and my scsi on my mind

Offline refinery

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Re: firewire & usb cards not working in beige g3
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2018, 04:09:03 PM »
how many notches are in the firewire/usb cards?
if it has 2 notches the reason it might not be working is because its not compatible with 3.3v rated pci cards and requires a 1 notch 5v pci card

this could be the answer. all the cards I have are two-notch.
G4/MDD 1.42 (9), G4/GB 500DP (X), Beige G3 400 (9), PBG4Ti 1Ghz (X), PBG3WS 300 (9)

got my mind on my scsi and my scsi on my mind

Offline FdB

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Re: firewire & usb cards not working in beige g3
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2018, 05:21:50 PM »
Well... if one of them is showing up in the Profiler and it's not getting the necessary voltage...
maybe try giving it its' own voltage from the power puck that comes with many FW drives?

Okay, two more cents there. ;)
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Offline GaryN

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Re: firewire & usb cards not working in beige g3
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2018, 07:08:22 PM »
the siig and syba are FW800 cards, i know i would not get FW800 out of them but i would think they would still work as FW400 cards (like they do in the G4)
See? That's what you get for thinking. There's no really good reason to assume that because something works that way in a computer with a native FW bus, the same thing will happen in your setup.

What I find most puzzling is:  The Sonnet tempo should work, absolutely work with no issues.

Offline IIO

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Re: firewire & usb cards not working in beige g3
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2018, 08:01:54 PM »
there we go. it is firewire 800 and it is probably also usb 2.
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
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Offline refinery

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Re: firewire & usb cards not working in beige g3
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2018, 08:56:42 PM »
only two of the cards i tried were FW800. the others were all FW400.
Again, these cards work FINE in a G4 gigabit running OS9, including the FW800 cards, at FW400 speed.
the drive in the beige is actually a clone of the gigabit G4's drive, so the extensions are identical.
they are all USB2 however, and USB has worked fine on all of them.

i went ahead and ordered a $10, 5V combo card off ebay. We'll see if that works when it arrives.
G4/MDD 1.42 (9), G4/GB 500DP (X), Beige G3 400 (9), PBG4Ti 1Ghz (X), PBG3WS 300 (9)

got my mind on my scsi and my scsi on my mind

Offline refinery

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Re: firewire & usb cards not working in beige g3
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2018, 08:59:13 PM »

What I find most puzzling is:  The Sonnet tempo should work, absolutely work with no issues.


the USB on the sonnet works fine.


if the 5V card doesnt work, im going to investigate replacing the motherboard.
G4/MDD 1.42 (9), G4/GB 500DP (X), Beige G3 400 (9), PBG4Ti 1Ghz (X), PBG3WS 300 (9)

got my mind on my scsi and my scsi on my mind

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Re: firewire & usb cards not working in beige g3
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2018, 12:29:23 AM »
how many notches are in the firewire/usb cards?
if it has 2 notches the reason it might not be working is because its not compatible with 3.3v rated pci cards and requires a 1 notch 5v pci card

this could be the answer. all the cards I have are two-notch.

yes its the pci spec of the older g3 - it requires a 5v one notch card.
it cant provide the card with the right voltage it requires because the 3.3v pci spec wasnt released yet when that g3 was made... so it doesnt even see the card because it literally is not functioning properly

out of all the cards that you have is any one of them a 1 notch 5v card?

the beige g3 is from 1997 but was sold until sometime in 1998
pci spec 2.2 came out at the end of 1998
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conventional_PCI

so thats your problem.
the motherboard is likely fine
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Offline refinery

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Re: firewire & usb cards not working in beige g3
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2018, 02:36:55 AM »
all of the cards I currently have are two notch cards.
i went ahead and ordered a single-notch 5V card off ebay today, $10 shipped, not bad at all.
I'll report back in this thread when its arrived and tested.

Thanks for the help everyone, much appreciated. Hopefully this does the trick.
G4/MDD 1.42 (9), G4/GB 500DP (X), Beige G3 400 (9), PBG4Ti 1Ghz (X), PBG3WS 300 (9)

got my mind on my scsi and my scsi on my mind

Offline refinery

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Re: firewire & usb cards not working in beige g3
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2018, 02:21:59 PM »
sadly the 5V card didnt work either. Same as the others, it shows up under the PCI slot as a firewire and usb card, but the firewire doesnt work properly.
im going to see if i can track down a copy of the FWB toolkit mentioned above.
also going to see about doing a fresh OS install in case its a problem or conflict somewhere w extensions.
also going to see about installing OSX on it, which would help eliminate a software conflict if the same behavior is present in OSX.
G4/MDD 1.42 (9), G4/GB 500DP (X), Beige G3 400 (9), PBG4Ti 1Ghz (X), PBG3WS 300 (9)

got my mind on my scsi and my scsi on my mind

Offline GaryN

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Re: firewire & usb cards not working in beige g3
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2018, 08:24:15 PM »
…going to see about doing a fresh OS install in case its a problem
Logically, that is the exact place you're at now. There's no good reason this isn't working so it's time to shotgun the OS
also going to see about installing OSX on it, which would help eliminate a software conflict if the same behavior is present in OSX.
Actually, no it won't. If it doesn't work with OSX, your computer's haunted. If it does work in OSX, you'll be right back at the previous idea: shotgun OS9. You may as well just do that first.

Offline refinery

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Re: firewire & usb cards not working in beige g3
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2018, 11:58:40 PM »
definitely looking like the computer is haunted... clean install of OS9.2.1 to the drive, no change. same behavior as before. I installed OSX 10.2, and it didnt even see the USB devices as being present... despite the fact I was using them at that particular moment. I dont know if that's particular to a beige with OSX though, as I recall back in the day there was a lot of stuff from the legacy machines that didnt work quite right. like my titanium 1ghz would show 64MB VRAM under OS9 but only 32MB under OSX.

also fury de bongo suggested the HDST suite which i installed but made no difference.

but right now i think my only remaining recourse is a mobo swap. just waiting for the right auction to come up on ebay as if im going to spend money on this I wanna have one of the turbo pro pci versions.
G4/MDD 1.42 (9), G4/GB 500DP (X), Beige G3 400 (9), PBG4Ti 1Ghz (X), PBG3WS 300 (9)

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Offline FdB

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G3 Firewire / USB cards
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2018, 02:07:25 PM »
Primarily in reference to refinery’s quest.

Can’t locate exact PCI voltage requirements for a G3 400* MHz MiniTower. (*As noted in your profile “Signature” line.) Is that the spec for your machine? (Overclocked?) Anyway…

Resurrected the Beige G3 9600/300 here yesterday and it has the AFW-2100/DELL RoHS dual Firewire 400 card (Dell Adaptec-2100 / Agere chipset) inside. It’s a two-notch card and works well with no extraneous (or extra) Adaptec drivers / enablers present. In this case, running OS 9.2.2… the 9600 does have FireWire Enabler 2.85 and FireWire Support 2.8.5 present and enabled. Someone here previously mentioned the 2.8.7 versions of both these. Maybe… try a “fall back” to these versions or maybe even try the Dell Adaptec-2100 card?

If you’d like to try this card, cover postage both ways and I’ll lend it to you to test. That is… unless someone is absolutely certain that your machine must have a one-notch card. PM me your address if you’d like to try this one. And this card occupies the very last (bottom) PCI slot in this 9600 (also built in 1997).

Other FW 400 cards tested today:

LSI processor (no name) one-notch - powers up and mounts FW400 drive / Unknown chipset - LSI?
Keyspan FPCI-3 one notch - powers up / no mount / TI chipset
Radius Firewire PCI 2330 two notch -  zip, zero, nada… nothing / TI chipset
Adaptec FW-USB Combo two notch - powers up and mounts FW - Provides USB power / TI chipset

After testing the Adaptec Combo, tested other USB cards. None of which recognized either an Apple A1152 or M4848 mouse (with or without USB Overdrive enabled). Nor were any thumb drives successfully mounted or recognized. The A1152 mouse "lit up" but did not “function”. I didn’t really investigate any further or try installing any other drivers or mount approaches. All two-notch cards.

Belkin 4-port - Lucent chip
AUA-2000B 2-port - NEC chip
Generic USB 2.0 Host Card 4 port - V/A chip

Generic USB 2.0 card didn’t work in a G3? No real surprise there…
whereas the Adaptec Combo with the (normally more Mac-friendly) TI chip
did surprise me... because it wasn’t so “friendly” when previously tested in an MDD.

So refinery, if you want to try the "Dell Adaptec-2100" or the LSI... just LMK. 
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